CavaliersFTW wrote:thizznation wrote:tsherkin wrote:I don't think he'd have a physical advantage over DeMarcus Cousins, and I think which physical advantage he'd have generally changes between eras, because he wasn't max-strength when he was max-quickness, for example. And again, we saw a guy like Willis Reed able to frustrate his power, so there's that to consider.
Woah, DeMarcus Cousins? C'mon man...
The only thing DeMarcus Cousins has on Wilt is weight, that is it. He is 3 to 4 inches shorter, shorter arms, half the leaper, half the cardio, Cousins would get his butt dusted by Wilt. Even if DeMarcus seals Wilt with a box out, Wilt can literally go over the top of DeMarcus with out ever fouling.
I don't even believe he has weight on Wilt, Wilt was 290-320lbs from the very early stages of his career until the end. Listed weight is one thing, Wilt was always underbilled just like Shaq, every article that ever specifies his actual weight is usually above his listed weight. Seasons where he confesses he was "275" are almost non existent past his 3rd NBA season.
Rookie debut: 258lbs
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3uoaRHmrQQ8/VX5FvdeA4dI/AAAAAAAAGa4/AXt4WvkalX0/s0/Wilt%252520258%252520pounds%252520as%252520a%252520rookie.jpgSeason 6: (briefly) he is reporting in at an actual 275lbs... but it states this was the lowest weight he's been since 5 prior seasons
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-P_kDptkBaMo/VZXjqR2jAxI/AAAAAAAAGkU/tKH-20u3BU8/s0/Wilt%252520weighed%252520301%252520pounds%252520for%252520the%2525201965%252520nba%252520season.jpgThroughout the 1960's I believe he averaged 290-300lbs. For example 1964 season he showed up to training camp 320lbs which it is reported he rapidly drops down to 300, and by late in that season Chick Hearn reports his weight to be 292lbs in a Lakers documentary.
As a Laker Wilt admits he averaged 300-310lbs in an interview after his career.
Demarcus Cousins reported to draft camp at 292lbs, though for him at the time it was described as "baby fat" and that he needed to lose at least 10-15 pounds. FWIW he's listed at 270 right now, I don't know if that is fairly accurate or an over or under billed number but he does appear slimmer to me than his rookie season.
He's shorter, has less reach, is not the all around athlete, I'm not sure he'd be able to compete in the high jump, triple jump, or impress Arnold Schwarzenegger in the gym. He has no upper hand on Wilt physically from what I can see.
personally, i Dont believe that it really makes sense to compare fg percentages across eras. to me, it seems apparent that in this era jump shooting was much less advanced as it is now (things like, ten toes to the basekt, are simply myths). for example, in the closing moments of the 76ers celtics game 4, the shots were barely hitting the rim. However, this is also because of the more strict carrying rules. this doesent change the fact htat pg of this era are more crafty, because carrying isnt actually an nba rule tbh (palming i mean).
Also, as a pure player, wilt was kind of a mix between a lot of players, but not at the same level, imo. for example, his fadeaway jump shot/bank shot are both very good for his height. However, I believe that they are just solid, not anything beyond that. This is becasue I heard once that wilt shot 60%-70% of his shots off fadeaways/mid ranges (obviously due to some rules back then, but still, it is interesting) according to Nate Thurmond (overall, i would believe him because he is the only person able to defend against wilt 1 on 1 and make him score less than 27ppg, though thats not to detract from wilt, as i personally believe thurmond is the best man to man defender ever). this may have been while he was with the lakers or with the 76ers or the warriors, im not sure. Now, looking at a logical stand point, when within 5-6 feet (at the rim) he probably shot around, 75% (rounded up what shaq averaged, because he played in an era with around the same height yet less fundamentally and powerful centers. also, the metric is 0-3 feet, and shaq probably shot 0-6 feet, but obviously his number plummetted from 7-10 feet, so lets say at the rim, where shaq woulld play usually, he shoots 75%). obviously, 60% is an exagerration, but he basically meant wilt shot more fadaway jump shots than he did post moves, and tbh, id take the opinion of thurmond over basically anyone regarding wilt.
lets use a formula, lets assume wilt shot 55% of his shots on fadeaways, because thats what thurmond probably meant (60% is a bit much imo)
that would mean he shot 45% inside the basket. if he shot 80% at the rim, then that would mean he shot a combined 33% on other tpes of shots. HOWEVER, obviously this number is too low,
so lets just round it up to 35%.
AND before people start hating on me for saying that he probably shot around 36% from outside of 10ft "disrespectful" (i changed my numbers to just calulate outside of 10 feet btw, so the num er is more accurate and higher) duncan in his carrreer averaged 40% outside of 10ft.
but tbh, this number isnt bad, its actually SOLID for a center. its not dirk, but its SOLID. i recall thurmond saying he forced wilt to miss by making him shoot from far away when they matched up against each other (In the numbers ive seen, thurmond "held" wilt to 53% shooting as a whole, including his peak years and super high fg years, on around 24 ppg, since i wont count the high fg years because those obviously deflate his stats, if that is a real phrase)
so imo, wilt would literally be like shaq with a solid jumper. nothing less, nothing more. it would also mean he rebounds better.
Also, I dont believe that we can use size/height/weight as a comparison to see if players would dominate or not.
also, russell was about the same height as cousins (he was slightly shorter than dwight i think, in shoes maybe 6ft 10 ish) and is reported to be 220 pounds, but he was the best defender of all time. yes he had a good jump and was fast, but the heavier players should have abused him, even if he was fast.
the same holds true for davis. on paper, he should get absolutely manhanddled by cousins and drummond, but he defends them pretty well. Cousins really only had that one game where he exploded against davis. (also, i recall seeing somewhere a bs post saying that cousins dominated davis head to head. once again, this is why i think head to head stats, at times are misleading, because he included the season where davis averaged 13-7 and said nothing about it. thats why i didnt include wilts years where he dropped his scoring to be more effective overall)
imo, wilt is basically peak shaq or peak lebron with a few key elements.
How much do I believe wilt would average today?
33-17-4.5-2-5
Also, not for one moment am I saying wilt only played at the basket. like I said, 36% is SOLID for a center. it might be a little bit higher, maybe 37-38%, which once again, is SOLID.
I cant stress this enough. 37% might look horrible, but looking at it from a historic point of view, 37% outside of 10 or 15 ffeet is, once again, SOLID. it basically a few steps below duncan, because i dont believe we can conclude he is a good jump shooter based on highlights (your scouting tool is great btw, though imo you should break it up into sections) or quotes, as someone sid jordan shot 36 percent outside of 15 feet in his best jump shooting season, harvey polluck or something, even though thats obviously false, since he shot 42% from that same range with the wizards.
but 36% for a center is VERY impressive. I cant put it any higher because of his free throw shooting, which, while he could shoot 80/100 in practice, is still not very good. (for example,i dont think AD is gonna be a 40+ 3 point shooter, but he shot 16/16 a few months ago)
I believe that wilt is the 3rd or 4th greatest nba player of all time, and the 2nd greatest peak wise. ( I take jordan for clutch factor, even though wilts "struggles" in the playoffs are LARGELY overblown)
also, I recall thurmond saying that he did not think he would be able to handle the strength of shaq, or it would give him a really exciting challange. not saying shaq or wilt is better. He said he thought kareem was the best center of all time, even though wilt fared better against thurmond than wilt did.
thats a a decent margin better than peak shaq in this era imo. i dont think its disrespectful.
wilt reminds me of shaq in many ways. Wilt was superior in the finger roll (though rarely is it used today) and the fadeaway. shaq had a better hook shot (I recall jackson saying wilt didnt have a hook, but he had a jump hook). But overall, it seems offensively, wilt was probably better, but it was close. They both lacked a "drive" so to speak. yes, i know they were competetive, and worked out alot, but they could seem lazy or uninterested at times. obviously, wilt and shaq both had that 20 win season and that 2003-4
laker squad busts each. yes, wilt didnt respect his coach and shaq faced injuries, but still.
imo, i sitll have russel ahead of wilt. I mean, wilt may have been as successful with those celtics teams, but imo, for everything wilt was offensively, russell was on defense. I realize russell considers wilt the goat, but imo, this is one of those eye test things. playing against peak nash and peak carmelo, one would think carmelo is better. obviously, this is not the case. similarrly, jennings played against kobe and called him the goat with jordan, im a kobe stan, but kobe is in serious danger of dropping out of the top 10
Also, I would like to point out that I would consider wilt, shaq, and jordan as the most TALENTED players ever.
I know im gonna get ALOT of hate for this, but imo, davis should join that conversation for pure talent.. tbh, imo, davis is a story of wasted potential. I mean, think about talented he is in terms of learning. he learned how to shoot the nba 3 pointer in 1 MONTH. he gained 20 pounds of muscle in ONE offseason, and he didnt even do it right thanks to monty friggin i think protein comes from pizza williams. he has a higher fg from 10-16ft last year than all of timmys seasons but 2, he had a higher percentage from 16ft+ than the majority of duncans seasons (inccluding 2003-2004). not only that, but he generates 15+ points from off ball movement alone
and when you think about it, he has only been playing power forward for 4 years in his whole career.
no im not saying he is gonna be a top 5 goat, but i feel like he has the potential to. btw, his wingspan is reported to be 7ft 8+ now. his height is rumord to be either abarefoot 6ft 10 or maybe taller, since he looked taller than duncan side to side. imo, Davis, if he doesent get injured, and DEVELOPS, is the modern wilt. when i say modern, i mean he is more well-rounded. I mean, think about the possibilities.
DONT HATE ON ME YET
this is what I mean.
back in the 60-70-80-90s, what was wanted was a strong big man who could dominate in the post
Wilt and shaq were epitomes of this. Im not sure about their off ball movement, but they simply didnt need any, they would dominate even if they had the brain of javale mcgee. they could overpower anyone. typical of bbiig men of this era, they couldnt hit free throws. Wilt was a great passer as well. HOWEVER, Im not sure if he would average 8 assists today as players seemed to be worse at stealing the ball back then, and players also took shots faster. 5 assists sounds more realistic, especially since he wont be the distributer. all of them are very athleticc. (wilt ran a 10.9 100 meter am i correct? and a 4.8 40 yard too right? that would probably mean he is as fast as lebron). obviously, 2 great leapers, shaq had a 37 inch at his prime imo, while wilt probably capped at 42-44 inches (I refuse to believe he had a higher vert than jordan, though I believe he could touch the top of the backboard. I recall his high jump video, what bar did he jump and how high was it set? it was 48 inches right?)
now, in the current era, you have teams that value floor spacing. as people have said befoe, 34% from teh three point line is better than 51% from the 2 point line.
modern powerforwards such as dirk and garnett. i dont know much about garnett,
so ill talk about dirk
goat stretch forward. decently athletic. not the strongest, but had an unstoppable shot. was just great.
now in 2020, picture a healthy davis who has ABSOLUTELY MAXIMIZED his potential.
- basically almost as good a shooter as dirk (have you seen him practice!? I know its practicce and friggin dwight shot 80/100 free throws, but literally, 16 pointers, all of them were NOTHING but net)
-GREAT defender, russell level. (lets look at the physical tools. imo, his draft express standing reach is bs. he has a MUCH longer wingspan and is taller than dwight, yet his reach is shorter?) at 260 pounds at this point. also he got a lot taller. i would guess his standing reach is around a good deal higher than cousins (cousins looks short compared to davis now. heck, he looks taller than duncan lately too) tbh, other than strength, he is almost wilt like. his standing reach is probably 1-3 inches shorter. his vertical is comparable, tough obviously wilts is higher. and his offball defending will prolly be better than wilts, as imo wilt's defense off ball wasnt at a great level. man to man, he is the top 3 all time one on one defenders. much lower beyond that.
- obviously a great athlete. he had a vertical of 35.5 inches as a high schooler. he got MUCH more athletic. wouldnt be suprised if it was around 38 inches. is VERY fast. not wilt fast, but fast enough that it doesent matter lol.
- can shoot from anywhere on the court
- a great passer, because of his innate guard skills
- went to hakeem camp, which he might go to. his post moves are getting better
-260 punds
- sacrifices wealth for championships
- team player chemistry wise
- becomes the goat defender when he grows his unibrow to 9ft and uses it to block every shot imaginable
Not for one second am i Saying will be better than wilt, but tbh, if he maximizes his potential, i believe he could do better than wilt IN THIS ERA. he would NOT do better than wilt in WILT's era
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