Peaks project #6

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Peaks project #6 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:33 pm

The arguments for the first two are same as on prior thread, with any additions highlighted in the blue color.

1st ballot: Tim Duncan ‘03
I’m going to start with drza’s quote regarding his offense:
drza wrote:Offense:
Duncan: I think that, while less flashy, Duncan's post game was as effective as Dream's. I also think that he was a better passer than either Robinson or Olajuwon. I think that this makes him as good of a low post hub option on offense as Olajuwon was. However, I don't think that either Duncan or Olajuwon are as good of big men offensive hub options as Shaq or Kareem. Thus, I don't know that you could scale up an offense built primarily around Duncan (or Olajuwon's) low-post offense to a best-in-the-league level the way that you could one built around Shaq or Kareem. However, what both Duncan and Olajuwon demonstrated with their post-game was the ability to lead/anchor an offense that was good enough to win with the right combination of strong defense and shooters. Duncan was good in the iso, but not brilliant like Hakeem could be. He also shared shooting range with Hakeem out to about 15 feet, which was a nice counter to the post games.


Duncan epitomizes the “quiet 30” or similar. Because nothing he does is ever flashy or particularly pleasing aesthetically, because he never makes much of an emotional show about anything…….it’s easy to overlook how well he plays in just about each and every game. You rarely see him do something “amazing”, and yet when the end of the game rolls around you see he went for 25 and 15 with 3 ast and 3 blk. And he does that night after night.

In ‘03:
26.9 PER, .248 WS/48, +7.4 BPM in 39.3 mpg.
He scaled that up to 28.4 PER, .279 WS/48, +11.6 BPM in 42.5 mpg in the playoffs. He went for a remarkable 24.7 ppg @ 57.7% TS, 15.4 rpg, 5.3 apg, 3.3 bpg on his way to a title, rolling over the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, and the #1 SRS Dallas Mavericks along the way.
He had the league’s leading PI RAPM at a monstrous +8.3 that year, too.

Additionally, the other thing I'd bring up about Duncan (which applies to his career as a whole, not a just a peak year or two) is his leadership qualities. This is a man who takes a humble and business-like approach to basketball. He doesn't sulk or misbehave, he doesn't play the part of the child or diva, he doesn't bicker or back-stab or in any other way alienate his coach or teammates; he shows up at practice and team functions and follows the team rules, never assuming he deserves special treatment. I think people take for granted the effect that that has on a team, when your superstar conducts himself in that fashion. He's also declined better offers in order to keep the desired team assembled so he can contend. The winning culture that has been present in San Antonio for the last two decades is in no small part due to Duncan's presence and his steadfast dedication to team first.
He also has a steady and calming effect in big games, or in clutch time, simply because he never appears rattled. These are valuable qualities in a leader.



2nd ballot: David Robinson '95 (I think; though '94 and '96 are both amazing seasons, too)
Robinson, to me, is the GOAT defensive player (or at least the GOAT not named Bill Russell). As far as in-era defensive dominance, no one reaches what Bill Russell did....no one. But the thing is, I don't think he could exert that level of dominance in a later era (NOTE: although I freely admit that that is in part due to the fact that everyone to come after has had the Bill Russell Blueprint to work from), and I further think Robinson has the ability to be just as defensively dominant as Russell in the 1950's/60's (if he'd have anywhere near the ingenuity, anyway).
One other thing about Robinson's defense that sort of reminds my of Russell is the manner in which he blocks shots: ever notice how often he keeps the ball in play? Often even tipping it toward teammates? Also a top-notch pnr defender (has a serious edge on Olajuwon in this regard, imo), which would come in quite handy in today's league.

Combine that with being GOAT-level as far as a running and transition-finishing center (amazing finisher in general), having an outstanding face-up game, decent range, and being the best FT-shooting center we've discussed so far.
Dr Spaceman can provide the rest of the justification (he already has).


3rd ballot: Hakeem Olajuwon '93 or '94
Kinda undecided on the year, but I'm going with him for my final ballot. As much as I've been arguing for Robinson, that's mostly just been blow-back toward those that think it's ludicrous to place Robinson ahead of (or even equal to) Olajuwon. But it's not as though I don't see it as close (splitting hairs, really).
Hakeem's got the post-game, as well as a certain mental toughness, which allows his offensive game to hold steady (or occasionally even scale up slightly) in the playoffs. He's also a marginally better passer than Robinson. Rebounding is pretty even.
In most other areas, I favor Robinson (if only by a tiny margin): I think Robinson a marginally better defensive player (mostly just his edge as pnr defender, and also---at least by my eye-test---a greater tendency to keep his blocked shots in play), I think Robinson has a marginally better face-up game (just so explosive), and a marginally better transition center. And fwiw, I think Robinson is a touch more portable: he did reasonably well as the offensive hub (while remaining a GOAT-level defensive anchor), but would also slide very nicely into a secondary (or at least "1b") type of offensive role alongside another superstar, and likely maintain similar impact. I'm not sure if the same can be said of Hakeem. He's really kind of made to be the low-post offensive hub.
But again, Hakeem is the better offensive hub. So it's all very close to me, but I'm ultimately going to keep this order.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#2 » by drza » Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:00 pm

1) 2004 Garnett

2) 2003 Duncan

3) 1965 Bill Russell


I wrote a book about Garnett already in the last thread (viewtopic.php?p=44647718#p44647718 ), so I'll keep this brief. I think that Garnett peaked with the best argument of any player of all-time to be both the best offensive and best defensive player in the league at the same time. He contributed in SO many ways that his impact was uniformly massive, in both the regular season and the playoffs, on a year-to-year basis. He was an excellent iso-scorer and 1-on-1 defensive player...but much more importantly, he was one of the best "help offense" and "help defense" big men of all time.

Hakeem is a better iso scorer, but Garnett's contributions made an across-the-board impact that was at least as large with a style that was much more portable and scaleable.

Robinson and Duncan are probably the two players most similar to Garnett, most closely able to replicate the impact. Based on the regular season on/off +/- numbers we have, Robinson in the regular season is the closest thing we have on record to peak KG and peak Cavs Lebron. While I don't kill him for his postseason scoring difficulties (if anyone has championed the over-use we tend to put on scoring efficiency when making evaluations, it's me), I do note that if '95 Robinson isn't scoring up to par he has less that he can contribute in other aspects of offense to maintain his impact. With Garnett, even if his scoring efficiency goes down, he's still able to provide the same defense warping/spacing and offense initiation to keep his impact up. This gives him an edge on Robinson in my book.

Duncan has no postseason issues at all and is able to do almost everything that Garnett can do, just slightly attenuated. His impact was one of the greatest of this era, just slightly behind Garnett. That's why I'm voting them 1-2 here.

For my third vote I'm kind of going off-the-board a bit, but I'm still not convinced that peak Russell shouldn't already have been voted in. His impact was defense-centric, but it was MASSIVE. And portable. And scaleable. And I think he had both the physical and (more importantly) the mental tools to modify his game to fit the circumstances, so I believe his impact in 2015 would be very similar to what it was in 1965...still at the top of the league.

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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#3 » by Djoker » Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:51 pm

Even though I am not a voter on this project, I hope that the participants don't mind if I give my two cents.

I strongly disagree with the quote in the OP that calls Duncan's post game as effective as Olajuwon's. Besides the obvious playoff scoring comparison where Duncan doesn't come close, Duncan just didn't have the athleticism, the quickness, nor the array of moves that Olajuwon had in his toolbox. The most evident of Duncan's relative lack of post prowess compared to Hakeem are his unimpressive performances against elite defensive centers in his prime years.

1999 vs. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) -- 18.8 ppg on 46.0 %FG/51.6 %TS
1999 vs. Rasheed Wallace (Portland) -- 16.8 ppg on 52.1 %FG/54.7 %TS
2001 vs. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) -- 22.5 ppg on 46.6 %FG/51.2 %TS
2005 vs. Marcus Camby (Denver) -- 22.0 ppg on 46.8 %FG/51.3 %TS
2005 vs. Rasheed Wallace (Detroit) -- 20.6 ppg on 41.9 %FG/47.1 %TS
2007 vs. Marcus Camby (Denver) -- 20.2 ppg on 47.3 %FG/49.2 %TS
2007 vs. Anderson Varejao (Cleveland) -- 18.3 ppg on 44.6 %FG/48.3 %TS

Compare that to Hakeem's offensive explosions against Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq in 1994 and 1995. It's literally night and day. I do admit that Duncan is a more intelligent offensive player than his stats show largely due to his terrific IQ. Duncan spotted double teams and made the right pass possibly better than any other player. His bank shot off the backboard has always been praised but it's a low % shot for Timmy. For virtually his entire career (2001-present), Timmy has shot 44.1% from 3-10 feet and 40.6% from 10-16 feet (BRef).
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#4 » by drza » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:33 pm

Djoker wrote:Even though I am not a voter on this project, I hope that the participants don't mind if I give my two cents.

I strongly disagree with the quote in the OP that calls Duncan's post game as effective as Olajuwon's. Besides the obvious playoff scoring comparison where Duncan doesn't come close, Duncan just didn't have the athleticism, the quickness, nor the array of moves that Olajuwon had in his toolbox. The most evident of Duncan's relative lack of post prowess compared to Hakeem are his unimpressive performances against elite defensive centers in his prime years.

1999 vs. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) -- 18.8 ppg on 46.0 %FG/51.6 %TS
1999 vs. Rasheed Wallace (Portland) -- 16.8 ppg on 52.1 %FG/54.7 %TS
2001 vs. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) -- 22.5 ppg on 46.6 %FG/51.2 %TS
2005 vs. Marcus Camby (Denver) -- 22.0 ppg on 46.8 %FG/51.3 %TS
2005 vs. Rasheed Wallace (Detroit) -- 20.6 ppg on 41.9 %FG/47.1 %TS
2007 vs. Marcus Camby (Denver) -- 20.2 ppg on 47.3 %FG/49.2 %TS
2007 vs. Anderson Varejao (Cleveland) -- 18.3 ppg on 44.6 %FG/48.3 %TS

Compare that to Hakeem's offensive explosions against Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq in 1994 and 1995. It's literally night and day. I do admit that Duncan is a more intelligent offensive player than his stats show largely due to his terrific IQ. Duncan spotted double teams and made the right pass possibly better than any other player. His bank shot off the backboard has always been praised but it's a low % shot for Timmy. For virtually his entire career (2001-present), Timmy has shot 44.1% from 3-10 feet and 40.6% from 10-16 feet (BRef).


There's some great stuff in here, from a lot of different angles, that I'd like to address.

1) When I said
drza wrote:while less flashy, Duncan's post game was as effective as Dream's. I also think that he was a better passer than either Robinson or Olajuwon. I think that this makes him as good of a low post hub option on offense as Olajuwon was.
, I wasn't just looking at his ability to score from the post. Rather, I meant that, because Duncan is also a better and more willing passer than Olajuwon, an offense built around using Duncan in the post has similar expectations to a similar offense built around Dream. And at this point in the discussion, I'd still stand by that. Also, in that originally quoted post, I said that neither Dream nor Duncan are ideal offensive anchors because offenses that run through the post, with their skillsets, wouldn't scale up to elite with better supporting talent. Thus, as far as offensive anchors go, I'd rather an offense built around either one of the outlier offensive bigs (like Shaq or maybe Kareem) or else bigs that could operate from further out (like Dirk or KG) as opposed to building one around Dream or Duncan.

2) Those numbers are great, and actually dovetail in with a drum I've been beating for awhile, about the difference between Duncan's postseason scoring efficiency and Garnett's. The difference is already really small when actually looked at realistically, but this helps hammer the point home: When Duncan faced difficult match-ups, his scoring efficiency dipped way down as well. To his credit, he was also able to produce at much higher volume/efficiency in other series which tended to be vital given that this handful of difficult match-ups was a small minority of the many postseason series that Duncan played in.

3) Also, I would argue that Garnett (and arguably Sheed Wallace) might very well be more difficult 1-on-1 defenders than anything that Olajuwon faced. Dream relied on his incredible footwork, speed, and feints to free himself up for scoring opportunities. He was quicker than Ewing and Shaq, of those you listed, and thus had advantages in this area. He and Robinson had similar athletic abilities (and in the majority of their match-ups Robinson played him very well), but in those playoffs my memory had Robinson falling for an inordinate number of Dream's feints and up-fakes. Garnett and Sheed are both 7-footers with great length, but both also tended to play better position defense against the kinds of moves that Dream offered. I don't know that we could project Dream's scoring figures to look like Duncans, but I don't think he'd have exploded against them the way that he did in that '94/'95 run. He'd have had to be more physical, use his strength more, which he could do but I think his effectiveness would have been lowered.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#5 » by SideshowBob » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:47 pm

*EDIT

Tentative Ballot

4. Bird 86 +7.25 (+6.75 O/+0.50 D)

5. Hakeem 93 +7.25 (+4.25 O/+3.00 D)

6. Chamberlain 67 +7.25 (+4.25 O/+3.00 D)

7. Garnett 04 +7.00 (+3.75 O/+3.25 D)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bird

Spoiler:
Case for Bird is simple. I think he's close to the best offense ever with the diversity and effectiveness of his tools and IMO has one of the best offensive skillsets ever for minimizing redundancy. I also see him as a small positive on the defensive end, nothing spectacular but he's a presence on the defensive glass despite the insane rebounding talent around him, can make smart reads and doesn't commit too many errors, and is fairly well disciplined (at least talking about 86). I also like his season long consistency in this year. I think his 88 RS looks even more impressive on the offensive end, but the PS health issues force me to penalize him a bit.


Hakeem

Spoiler:
On Hakeem - IMO his defensive peak is earlier (like 89/90), but 93-95 are his best combination of offense AND defense. Going from 93-->95, I see his defense dropping off, while his offense improves (more refined, more comfortable, more diverse, more aggressive, etc.), to the point where I rank all three seasons about the same. BUT, as I value defense over equivalent offense due to portability (even though Hakeem's offensive skillset is meshable), I would take 93 over the other two seasons by a hair if I must choose one (well and RS health as a tiebreaker).


Garnett/Duncan

Spoiler:
Garnett and Russell I think are even with Duncan as well, I'm open to being swayed to switch the 7th spot to either of those (really I'm open to anyone else as well, but moreso those guys). I think I'll prefer Duncan/Garnett over Russell as I'm more confident in their balance than Russell's defense (when asked to break a tie).

IMO Duncan's offense/defense both peak together in 02 and maybe 03, but I have definitely preference for his shooting/scoring skills in 02 so I lean towards that year over 03. Strong and resilient low post game, excellent screening action, modern master of the give and go, etc. Defensively I think he's at about the same place from 99-03, and his lack of redundancy is made evident with the heights that SAS's defense is able to achieve with Robinson/Duncan playing together (given that Robinson might have been just as good as Duncan on that end even late in his career, and given that he's probably the most diverse out of the big 5 modern defenders, is even more portable than Duncan). He's an exceptional shot blocker/rim protector, but what's really key is how adept he is with his positioning which straight up denies/forces penetrators out of the middle (hence the lower raw block numbers). He's also go the lateral mobility/coverage to be a dominant PnR stopper, though I think Garnett is the real standout on that front.

On Garnett, his offense and defense don't peak at the same time IMO. I think he was probably capable of being even better on the defensive end in the 02-05 era, but I don't think it could have been simultaneously sustained along with the offensive game he was displaying (hence I like his Boston years better, particularly 08 and 09). Still, I do believe he was the best PnR defender in the league and that he was still a near ATG-level defensive player with his mobility, lateral coverage, positional versatility, floor awareness, rotational discipline, etc. OTOH I like his offensive game even better than Duncan's; I actually prefer the fact that he's perimeter oriented, that he can stretch the floor AND provide a solid low-post game AND anchor from the high-post as a passing hub that has some of the best vision ever from a big and can use his passing to force rotations and find cutters/shooters/etc AND be an extremely valuable screener not only due to his strong lower-base but also because of his dual threat as a PnR finisher or a PnP spacer. I also think this offensive skillset is extremely portable - he can function as a secondary or tertiary scoring option on his team and still be the best offensive player on the floor, its pretty remarkable. Overall I have his peak as dead-even with Duncan's and I'm not sure which I'm going to actually be picking once we get to voting them in.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#6 » by Djoker » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:12 pm

drza wrote:
Djoker wrote:Even though I am not a voter on this project, I hope that the participants don't mind if I give my two cents.

I strongly disagree with the quote in the OP that calls Duncan's post game as effective as Olajuwon's. Besides the obvious playoff scoring comparison where Duncan doesn't come close, Duncan just didn't have the athleticism, the quickness, nor the array of moves that Olajuwon had in his toolbox. The most evident of Duncan's relative lack of post prowess compared to Hakeem are his unimpressive performances against elite defensive centers in his prime years.

1999 vs. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) -- 18.8 ppg on 46.0 %FG/51.6 %TS
1999 vs. Rasheed Wallace (Portland) -- 16.8 ppg on 52.1 %FG/54.7 %TS
2001 vs. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) -- 22.5 ppg on 46.6 %FG/51.2 %TS
2005 vs. Marcus Camby (Denver) -- 22.0 ppg on 46.8 %FG/51.3 %TS
2005 vs. Rasheed Wallace (Detroit) -- 20.6 ppg on 41.9 %FG/47.1 %TS
2007 vs. Marcus Camby (Denver) -- 20.2 ppg on 47.3 %FG/49.2 %TS
2007 vs. Anderson Varejao (Cleveland) -- 18.3 ppg on 44.6 %FG/48.3 %TS

Compare that to Hakeem's offensive explosions against Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq in 1994 and 1995. It's literally night and day. I do admit that Duncan is a more intelligent offensive player than his stats show largely due to his terrific IQ. Duncan spotted double teams and made the right pass possibly better than any other player. His bank shot off the backboard has always been praised but it's a low % shot for Timmy. For virtually his entire career (2001-present), Timmy has shot 44.1% from 3-10 feet and 40.6% from 10-16 feet (BRef).


There's some great stuff in here, from a lot of different angles, that I'd like to address.

1) When I said
drza wrote:while less flashy, Duncan's post game was as effective as Dream's. I also think that he was a better passer than either Robinson or Olajuwon. I think that this makes him as good of a low post hub option on offense as Olajuwon was.
, I wasn't just looking at his ability to score from the post. Rather, I meant that, because Duncan is also a better and more willing passer than Olajuwon, an offense built around using Duncan in the post has similar expectations to a similar offense built around Dream. And at this point in the discussion, I'd still stand by that. Also, in that originally quoted post, I said that neither Dream nor Duncan are ideal offensive anchors because offenses that run through the post, with their skillsets, wouldn't scale up to elite with better supporting talent. Thus, as far as offensive anchors go, I'd rather an offense built around either one of the outlier offensive bigs (like Shaq or maybe Kareem) or else bigs that could operate from further out (like Dirk or KG) as opposed to building one around Dream or Duncan.

2) Those numbers are great, and actually dovetail in with a drum I've been beating for awhile, about the difference between Duncan's postseason scoring efficiency and Garnett's. The difference is already really small when actually looked at realistically, but this helps hammer the point home: When Duncan faced difficult match-ups, his scoring efficiency dipped way down as well. To his credit, he was also able to produce at much higher volume/efficiency in other series which tended to be vital given that this handful of difficult match-ups was a small minority of the many postseason series that Duncan played in.

3) Also, I would argue that Garnett (and arguably Sheed Wallace) might very well be more difficult 1-on-1 defenders than anything that Olajuwon faced. Dream relied on his incredible footwork, speed, and feints to free himself up for scoring opportunities. He was quicker than Ewing and Shaq, of those you listed, and thus had advantages in this area. He and Robinson had similar athletic abilities (and in the majority of their match-ups Robinson played him very well), but in those playoffs my memory had Robinson falling for an inordinate number of Dream's feints and up-fakes. Garnett and Sheed are both 7-footers with great length, but both also tended to play better position defense against the kinds of moves that Dream offered. I don't know that we could project Dream's scoring figures to look like Duncans, but I don't think he'd have exploded against them the way that he did in that '94/'95 run. He'd have had to be more physical, use his strength more, which he could do but I think his effectiveness would have been lowered.


1) If you were saying that an offense built around Duncan could have the same expectations as one built around Hakeem and you were talking about their entire careers I wouldn't agree with it but I could digest it. However when looking at 94/95 Hakeem he was a terrific passer. and averaged well over 4 assists per game in the playoffs He was shredding those double teams and finding shooters. It did help that he had Horry, Kenny and a few other long-range bombers around him but his improved passing and reading doubles is actually the brunt of what made Hakeem reach his peak in the mid-90's. Olajuwon actually anchored the first great 3pt shooting team in those Rockets in NBA history. His passing at his peak was pretty great and the small edge Duncan has there doesn't bridge the huge gap in scoring.

2) Agree wholeheartedly with this.

3) Given Robinson's height, reach, and athleticism I'm not sure I would agree with this. Putting Sheed aside maybe Garnett was the most difficult match-up. Still the crew that Hakeem went up against wasn't easy and Shaq/Robinson/Ewing had a big edge in strength vs. Garnett/Sheed and that play a big role in establishing position, boxing out etc.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#7 » by Dr Spaceman » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:19 pm

SideshowBob wrote:Tentative Ballot

4. Bird 86 +7.25 (+6.75/+0.50)

5. Hakeem 93 +7.25 (+4.25/+3.00)

6. Chamberlain 67 +7.25 (+4.25/+3.00)

*(tie) 7. Duncan 02 +7.00 (+3.00/+4.00)

*(tie) 7. Garnett 04 +7.00 (+3.75/+3.25)

*I'll end up leaning towards whoever has more traction by the end of the thread

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bird

Spoiler:
Case for Bird is simple. I think he's close to the best offense ever with the diversity and effectiveness of his tools and IMO has one of the best offensive skillsets ever for minimizing redundancy. I also see him as a small positive on the defensive end, nothing spectacular but he's a presence on the defensive glass despite the insane rebounding talent around him, can make smart reads and doesn't commit too many errors, and is fairly well disciplined (at least talking about 86). I also like his season long consistency in this year. I think his 88 RS looks even more impressive on the offensive end, but the PS health issues force me to penalize him a bit.


Hakeem

Spoiler:
On Hakeem - IMO his defensive peak is earlier (like 89/90), but 93-95 are his best combination of offense AND defense. Going from 93-->95, I see his defense dropping off, while his offense improves (more refined, more comfortable, more diverse, more aggressive, etc.), to the point where I rank all three seasons about the same. BUT, as I value defense over equivalent offense due to portability (even though Hakeem's offensive skillset is meshable), I would take 93 over the other two seasons by a hair if I must choose one (well and RS health as a tiebreaker).


Garnett/Duncan

Spoiler:
Garnett and Russell I think are even with Duncan as well, I'm open to being swayed to switch the 7th spot to either of those (really I'm open to anyone else as well, but moreso those guys). I think I'll prefer Duncan/Garnett over Russell as I'm more confident in their balance than Russell's defense (when asked to break a tie).

IMO Duncan's offense/defense both peak together in 02 and maybe 03, but I have definitely preference for his shooting/scoring skills in 02 so I lean towards that year over 03. Strong and resilient low post game, excellent screening action, modern master of the give and go, etc. Defensively I think he's at about the same place from 99-03, and his lack of redundancy is made evident with the heights that SAS's defense is able to achieve with Robinson/Duncan playing together (given that Robinson might have been just as good as Duncan on that end even late in his career, and given that he's probably the most diverse out of the big 5 modern defenders, is even more portable than Duncan). He's an exceptional shot blocker/rim protector, but what's really key is how adept he is with his positioning which straight up denies/forces penetrators out of the middle (hence the lower raw block numbers). He's also go the lateral mobility/coverage to be a dominant PnR stopper, though I think Garnett is the real standout on that front.

On Garnett, his offense and defense don't peak at the same time IMO. I think he was probably capable of being even better on the defensive end in the 02-05 era, but I don't think it could have been simultaneously sustained along with the offensive game he was displaying (hence I like his Boston years better, particularly 08 and 09). Still, I do believe he was the best PnR defender in the league and that he was still a near ATG-level defensive player with his mobility, lateral coverage, positional versatility, floor awareness, rotational discipline, etc. OTOH I like his offensive game even better than Duncan's; I actually prefer the fact that he's perimeter oriented, that he can stretch the floor AND provide a solid low-post game AND anchor from the high-post as a passing hub that has some of the best vision ever from a big and can use his passing to force rotations and find cutters/shooters/etc AND be an extremely valuable screener not only due to his strong lower-base but also because of his dual threat as a PnR finisher or a PnP spacer. I also think this offensive skillset is extremely portable - he can function as a secondary or tertiary scoring option on his team and still be the best offensive player on the floor, its pretty remarkable. Overall I have his peak as dead-even with Duncan's and I'm not sure which I'm going to actually be picking once we get to voting them in.


Can you make an argument for Bird>15 Curry? And if you're high on Bird's defense (like +1.0 or higher) then just an offense vs. offense comparison? Skills, impact, portability frankly seem to all be a wash or even a slight edge to Curry for me. And as I mentioned in a previous thread Curry's 2015 Finals went a really long way toward him being my offensive GOAT (not saying he's there, but he's close/will be). He just proved himself in such a resounding way against the most ridiculous defensive scheme I've ever seen used against a perimeter player.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#8 » by 70sFan » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:49 pm

EDIT

1st ballot - Hakeem Olajuwon 1993/1994
2nd ballot - Tim Duncan 2003
3rd ballot - Bill Russell -1962

With Hakeem vs Duncan, I don't know who should I choose. As a Spurs fun, I like Duncan much more and I think he is just as good as Hakeem. But Hakeem faced better competition than Duncan in 2003, so he has argument.
I think Duncan is better rebounder and overall slightly better offensive player than Hakeem (mainly because of better passing, scoring is even, or minimal edge to Hakeem). Hakeem is slightly better defender I think, but I don't think gap is enough. Both are all-time great defenders (top 5 ever probably). Duncan is also better leader, this is not very important thing, but in such a close comparison everything is important :)
Before project I have Hakeem peak ahead of Duncan, but right now I think Duncan is minimaly better.


I change my mind today after reading some posts here and watching some videos of both. Hakeem is better scorer (not overall offensive player, Duncan is better passer and better P&R player) and when you factor that he was also slighlty better defender, you should objectively take him over Timmy. This choice hurts me, cause I'm big Duncan fan. But I have Hakeem slightly ahead in terms of peak, while Duncan is higher on my all time list because of his consistent play through a whole career.

About 3rd choice, I'm between David Robinson and Bill Russell. I think Russell is more impactfull player during their prime. In fact, I think Russell is the most impactful player ever.
Russell is much better rebounder and better defender (not much, but still). Passing is even I think (Russell would have small edge). Robinson has one huge advantage over Bill - scoring. I would take Russell defense over Robinson offense, but Admiral add also amazing defense (second all time in my opinion - behind Russell of course). BUT, in my opinion Russell peak is 1962 year. When you look at their playoff numbers Bill doesn't look that much worse scorer than David:
25.3 ppg. 16.6% TRB 3.1 apg. on 44.6% FG 53.6 TS% (-0.7% rTS)
22.4 ppg. 19.7% TRB 5.0 apg. on 45.8% FG 51.9% TS (+4.0% rTS)
Also, Russell played his best playoffs against Wilt ever while Admiral was clearly outplayed by Hakeem. I'd change my mind, 3rd vote goes to Russell (as much as I like Admiral).

Next ballots would consider: David Robinson, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, Bill Walton and Moses Malone (I think I don't forget anyone).
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#9 » by MyUniBroDavis » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:52 pm

1) 03 Duncan

I already wrote about him in the last thread. But in general, here are my arguements.

-His team, position by position, was much weaker than people realize. aside from the Center and the PF positions, the 03 spurs ranked 17.6th in the league in terms of league average (which essentially would be near last).
To put that in perspective, Lebron's team, positionally, other than the SF position, ranked 14.6th on league average during the 09 season.

We know he elevated his game in the playoffs. His on-off (not entirely accurate, but shows a guideline) rating was 23.1
Whats more impressive about this is that the San Antonio bench, according to hoopstats, was slightly above average, meaning that the dropoff probably wasnt because of the "bench going on for the starters"

In terms of pure performance
Ill post some players, and what part of their schedule was their best on off for that year.
Ill also post players who have too small of a sample size
Harden, last year, RG +8.8
Curry, last year, RG, +17.8
Lebron, 09, RG, +21.2
Shaq, 01, RG, +15.6
Nash, 06, +20.4
Paul, 08, playoffs, +11.7
Garnett, 04, playoffs, +26.7

As for Garnett and Duncan, I believe that the leadership factor sways things in Duncans favor.

And also, that the biggest positional threat they faced. Garnett brought Shaq's scoring average down by 1-2 from 22 ppg.
Duncan brought Shaq down to 25, which might not see mlike a big deal, but in the last 30-ish games shaq had played, he was averaging more than 30 points a game, and his advanced stats, from a quick glance, honestly seemed comparable to his peak years.
Shaq was averaging around 22 leading up to against Garnett.

28-29 points to 25 points vs 22-23 points to 21 points really is not comparable, especially when it came to guarding Shaq.
Especially considering that the series before, he was averaging 29 a game against Garnett himself.

Other than man to man post defense (because obviously, there is that, at the end of the game, if they went to shaq...) factor, I think Duncan's leadership puts him on the edge, solely because of how, outside of the game, I feel like he helped his team as well.

93-94 Hakeem.

I already address how he lead his team in all statistical categories in one season (not this but still, he was better in these years).

There are many ways to interpret Barkley's huge scoring outburst in the 3 game first round. The way I see it, he was simply upping his game in the playoffs.
And hakeem was just like "nope"
he basically destroyed everyone, one on one wise.
He shot 46% against hakeem.

Hakeem basically turned one of the greatest inside scorers of all time into a less scoring Kobe bryant offensively

Obviously, he held all of his opponents, Ewing was also one of them, the last one wasnt exaclty a house hold name, but hakeem decently stopped him as well.

And we know for a fact how good he was offensively.


65 Russell (I dont know how to differentiate between years tbh)

In his last year, I recall that only Russell and some other perimeter player left. I cant remember his name, but lets assume he was a +0.5 on net defense
In Russells last year in the nba, they were 6.4+ on defense. When he left, they were simply 0.1+ on defense.

According to continuity stats, Russell's Celtics generally had San antonio level continuity.

Russell is quoted to have said that he thought he was a "better offensive player than defensive player"
Now, this is a ludicrous, untrue statement. However, what it might imply is that, in russells peak, he might have been a net offensive player as well.

In general, an almost identical team became nearly net negative on defense, compared to league average.
With them all at their peaks, other than Russell, I would estimate that as a whole, they MIGHT have been around +2.5 compared to league average (the fact that they werent dominant at all defensively with Russell is the basis for my statement).
What if, some of their famed perimiter defenders were really a result of Russell's defensive awesomeness?
probably not, but I feel that +2.5 can be a conservative estimate.
Considering that Russell's teams maxed out at -10.8 ON DEFENSE ALONE, a + 8.3 impact on defense is incredible by itself.
also, we know how good Russell could be man to man

Against wilt in 61-62, he held him to 11 points below his ppg average regular FG%, and made him shoot 45%.
Did the same in the playoffs, but held him to 17 points below his ppg average this time.

http://hoops-nation.com/community/topic/8385-debunking-the-myths-of-bill-russell/

Granted, I am not honestly sure if he really is a good offensive player (good being net plus at all),
but his defense is pretty much GOAT by otherworldly levels.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#10 » by Quotatious » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:15 pm

Djoker wrote:Even though I am not a voter on this project, I hope that the participants don't mind if I give my two cents.

I strongly disagree with the quote in the OP that calls Duncan's post game as effective as Olajuwon's. Besides the obvious playoff scoring comparison where Duncan doesn't come close, Duncan just didn't have the athleticism, the quickness, nor the array of moves that Olajuwon had in his toolbox. The most evident of Duncan's relative lack of post prowess compared to Hakeem are his unimpressive performances against elite defensive centers in his prime years.

1999 vs. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) -- 18.8 ppg on 46.0 %FG/51.6 %TS
1999 vs. Rasheed Wallace (Portland) -- 16.8 ppg on 52.1 %FG/54.7 %TS
2001 vs. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) -- 22.5 ppg on 46.6 %FG/51.2 %TS
2005 vs. Marcus Camby (Denver) -- 22.0 ppg on 46.8 %FG/51.3 %TS
2005 vs. Rasheed Wallace (Detroit) -- 20.6 ppg on 41.9 %FG/47.1 %TS
2007 vs. Marcus Camby (Denver) -- 20.2 ppg on 47.3 %FG/49.2 %TS
2007 vs. Anderson Varejao (Cleveland) -- 18.3 ppg on 44.6 %FG/48.3 %TS

Compare that to Hakeem's offensive explosions against Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq in 1994 and 1995. It's literally night and day. I do admit that Duncan is a more intelligent offensive player than his stats show largely due to his terrific IQ. Duncan spotted double teams and made the right pass possibly better than any other player. His bank shot off the backboard has always been praised but it's a low % shot for Timmy. For virtually his entire career (2001-present), Timmy has shot 44.1% from 3-10 feet and 40.6% from 10-16 feet (BRef).

Great post, and even as big Duncan fan, I have to agree with that. I still remember him struggling to score in isolation against Sheed in the '05 finals.

However, if we are talking about peaks, then '03 Duncan didn't have that problem in any round of the playoffs. Kenyon Martin, who was a very good defender at that time, held him to 24.2 ppg on 49.5% FG/54.6% TS, which is a little below his average, but nothing major. His numbers were affected in a way that could be expected, but it was still a pretty good offensive series by TD.

Anyway, I agree with your point that Duncan's post game (or even just scoring) wasn't as effective as Olajuwon's, and that's why Hakeem is going to be my #1 pick here.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#11 » by Dr Positivity » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:38 pm

Same ballot as last time

Ballot 1: Hakeem 1994

Ballot 2: Tim Duncan 2003

Ballot 3: Kevin Garnett 2004

Re: David Robinson. If we were talking regular season peaks yes he is up there. The reason I put him below players like Hakeem/Duncan/KG is I'm concerned there is holes in his skill game that made him easier to guard in the playoffs than players like Hakeem. Far as I can tell Robinson is like 2015 Anthony Davis offensively, where a good portion of his offense comes from using his length, first step and touch around the basket to blast everyone, without needing to be super deadly skill wise either in the post or from the outside. This is great but in the context of winning a championship I think this is quite a bit different than defending say 2011 Dirk or 2015 Lebron in a playoff series and the level of isolation polish their game got to.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#12 » by SideshowBob » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:42 pm

4. Larry Bird, 1986

He's the primary one-way guy in my top 5. His offensive impact is ridiculous, second only to Magic, and I'd argue that his particular skill-set enables a higher team offensive ceiling than Magic's does (remember the theoretical scenario; lower variance lower impact more valuable at a certain threshold than higher variance higher impact). Magic is the guy you build around; Bird is the guy you can just throw in anywhere.

Now, the driving reason for this impact is diversity. When looking strictly at offense, he's the rare master of all trades. GOAT level off-ball game, GOAT level outside shooting, GOAT level transition player/outlet passer, diverse post skillset and GOAT level interior passing, elite offensive rebounding. He can space the floor, he can divert defensive attention with just smart positioning, he can play inside and allow better spacing for an additional ball handler or ball dominant wing, he can run the floor himself, he's excellent at running the break, etc.

Having all of these together just enables huge lineup diversity. You can run anyone with this guy, and he enables them to play to their strengths while simultaneously playing to his own strengths (given that he has so many). He's a threat to score or create in virtually any offensive situation, he's basically pulling more offense out of lineups than anyone else is going to, and rarely plays poorly because he just has so much to provide.

He's no game changer on defense; he works effectively within the framework of the team defense and is a very strong rebounder, enabling very minimal positive impact, but his offensive so damn strong to begin with that this minor defensive impact propels him into my top 5 overall.


Dr Spaceman wrote:Can you make an argument for Bird>15 Curry? And if you're high on Bird's defense (like +1.0 or higher) then just an offense vs. offense comparison? Skills, impact, portability frankly seem to all be a wash or even a slight edge to Curry for me. And as I mentioned in a previous thread Curry's 2015 Finals went a really long way toward him being my offensive GOAT (not saying he's there, but he's close/will be). He just proved himself in such a resounding way against the most ridiculous defensive scheme I've ever seen used against a perimeter player.


I've got Bird's defense at +0.50, see above :) .

4. Bird 86 +7.25 (+6.75/+0.50)


I'll start labeling the offense/defense splits more clearly from now on.

On offense, I don't see too much separation between the two. I tend to get a bit more firm in my evaluations for modern players when I've had more time to mull things over and more seasons to identify nuanced differences (case in point, my opinion of 13 Lebron has tamed quite a bit since summer 2013, given A.) shifts in his play in the following years that allowed me to better dissect buildup of his 2013 skillset/ability and B.) separated from the season I can more patiently and thoroughly take an outside look at things and run down a checklist of what I see). As such, I'm not set on 2015 Curry's offense yet, these next couple of years will probably help me develop a more solid opinion. For arguments sake though, I have him in the 6-6.25 territory, a bit below Bird's 6.75 and I agree with you on his portability.

What's intriguing though is that we haven't really seen a player like Curry before, which is why I'm having a tough time gauging him (I like to compare players with similar skillsets, or simply skillsets that are common across players), he's so unique. I was flabbergasted at what he was doing in the postseason more times than I can count, and just lauding at the sustainability of it all (even though I had already spent the season harping about how resilient his game/impact is in theory). How the hell do you slow the guy down? picc made some decent criticisms that he can be intimidated a bit with physicality around screens and what not, but I think by the playoffs even he was remarking that Curry seems to have adjusted a bit.

Also here's the response I gave theonlyclutch in the #3 thread.

SideshowBob wrote:
theonlyclutch wrote:I don't mean to disparage your post, but I have trouble with Bird that high up.

What separates his peak seasons from what Curry just did last season?

Even ignoring boxscores (where Curry has the advantage), Curry had the Warriors operating as a stronger team than any of Birds Celtics, in particular, the offenses were quite similar despite Curry playing less than 33 minutes per game in the RS, and the relative absence of offensive talent of the Warriors in comparison to the Celtics. There's good evidence that Currys presence forces opponents into more compromising situations on D than Birds presence as well..


No worries. FWIW, I'm pretty darn high on Curry's offense, so I don't know that there's a great degree of disagreement. I've actually had a difficult time rating his 15 season. As you can see above, I've got Bird's offense at +6.75 (this is the best I see anyone outside of peak Magic) and I've considered as high as 6.25 for Curry (which is almost Nash/Jordan/Lebron territory). Bird's advantage (albeit not huge) stems from just being able to do a bit more, and some of that is the nature of his position (better offensive rebounding, better back-to-basket game high/mid/low which enables a greater diversity of movement/positioning within an offense) and better interior passing to boot, superior outlet passing/transition initiation (though Curry's SOO deadly with that pull-up on the break/semi-transition).

I do believe Bird has a clear defensive advantage. Neither player is exceptional, Curry seems break-evenish IMO, while Bird's presence on the defensive glass, solid rotations/team discipline and instincts make him a small positive. That gives Bird a clear peak advantage over Curry IMO, but I definitely get where you're coming from.

With regards to the team performance, while the Warriors did perform at a higher level overall, I think it needs to be made very clear that they were a relatively well balanced two-way team (+6.0 Offense/-4.2 Defense). In the 2015 POY threads I took a deeper look at their schedule adjusted offensive performance when accounting for the health of their top guys and even then, they were never quite hitting the kind of heights that Elgee was trying to demonstrate above. With all that in mind, I also want to make clear that I don't like simple results-oriented analysis either. I will account for team performance/record/stats as well as the box-score and impact stats as much as I can, but none will ever make or break a case for me.


So, as to answer your question, I can make an argument in my mind, but its close and its more likely than not that Curry will make it closer in the next few years. Right now, as I see it, Bird's interior advantages give him a slight edge. His presence on the offensive glass, high and low-post game (ITO scoring ability and as another nuance in his offensive game that allows him to move within an offense and open up more lineup possibilities AND playmaking), interior passing/ball movement (this can be linked to post-game), and IQ (matchup manipulation/floor awareness/etc.) prop him just a tad bit higher than Curry's superior PnR skills, dribble-drive penetration, GOAT level shooting (transition/pullup/off-screen/just everywhere) do. I'll follow the model I was using for comparing Lebron years. Note that this is never going to be precise, obviously skills/abilities overlap (slashing/shooting/playmaking, off-ball/shooting, off-ball/post, shooting/post on occasion, etc.) so it's not perfect.

Bird

Slashing +0.25
Shooting +2.00
PnR/Playmaking +1.50
Transition +0.25 (rebounding initiates, amazing outlet passer, doesn't need someone like Lebron's finishing ability to be effective)
Post-game +1.25
Off-Ball +1.50 (lumping offensive rebounding in here)

Curry

Slashing +0.75
Shooting +2.50
PnR/Playmaking +1.50
Transition +0.25 (that fastbreak pullup!)
Post-game +0.00
Off-Ball +1.25

Defensively, I'm not "high" high on either of them. I think Curry's smart at playing within the GSW system, he gets around screens, stays aware of the passing lanes and doesn't gamble aggressively, and has the preemptive knowledge to funnel guys that he might not necessarily be able to contain in single coverage into the DPOY caliber bigs. But in a vacuum I don't think he's as good as GSW allows him to be; lacks the tools to be a positive defender - size/length for versatility on rotations or to cover the lane/basket like bigger 2 guards can, isn't as aggressive in single coverage (think Paul, who, while shorter, also has the lower body strength to wrestle with guys bigger than himself, even if briefly) and is essentially reliant on some of the best personnel in the league for help defense (which is precisely what I don't want from a 1on1 guy) to contain the broad variety of the leagues' backcourts (don't see that as really a knock, considering this is GSW's rather effective strategy, but its something that could be a positive). At best I have him as breakeven on that end.

Bird's size helps here (though his physicality is a major limiting factor) in that he's a huge presence on the defensive glass (even when sharing the floor with an elite rebounding cast), and can cover a slightly wider spectrum of players, not much of a shot blocker though. I also think he's a slightly smarter defensive player in general, his discipline and IQ makes up for his lack of athleticism (better rotations, though he's slow, better instincts and awareness of player tendencies...). Overall a small positive on defense, and that mixed with what I perceive a small gap on offense gives him the edge overall.

In conclusion, I'm glad Curry's being mentioned this early. I would have started mentioning him myself if you and Quotatious hadn't brought him up. I think its likely that he moves up next time we run the project even if he doesn't end up topping 15 - opinions of him will likely rise with time IMO.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, here's the In/Out data I mentioned in the quoted post above.

SideshowBob wrote:2015 Golden State Warriors In/Out

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Curry IN (80 G, 67-13)

+10.4 SRS, +6.3 Offense, -4.3 Defense

Spoiler:
112.3 ORTG, 101.6 DRTG, +10.6 Adjusted Net

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Curry, Klay, Bogut, Green IN (59 G, 52-7)

+11.3 SRS, +6.5 Offense, -4.9 Defense

Spoiler:
112.6 ORTG, 100.7 DRTG, +11.4 Adjusted Net

------------------------------

Curry, Klay, Bogut, Green IN | Lee IN (34 G, 28-6)

+11.3 SRS, +8.1 Offense, -3.7 Defense

Spoiler:
113.7 ORTG, 102.2 DRTG, +11.8 Adjusted Net

------------------------------

Curry, Klay, Bogut, Green IN | Lee OUT (25 G, 24-1)

+11.1 SRS, +4.4 Offense, -6.5 Defense

Spoiler:
111.0 ORTG, 98.7 DRTG, +10.8 Adjusted Net

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Curry, Klay, Green IN | Bogut OUT (14 G, 9-5)

+7.4 SRS, +5.4 Offense, -2.2 Defense

Spoiler:
111.9 ORTG, 104.4 DRTG, +7.6 Adjusted Net

------------------------------

Curry, Klay, Green IN | Bogut, Lee OUT (5 G, 4-1)

+8.1 SRS, +4.9 Offense, -2.4 Defense

Spoiler:
109.8 ORTG, 105.2 DRTG, +7.3 Adjusted Net

------------------------------

Curry, Klay, Green, Lee IN | Bogut OUT (9 G, 5-4)

+7.1 SRS, +5.7 Offense, -2.0 Defense

Spoiler:
113.0 ORTG, 103.9 DRTG, +7.7 Adjusted Net

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**Note that there are overlaps in these sets.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#13 » by RSCD3_ » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:03 pm

Quotatious wrote:
Djoker wrote:Even though I am not a voter on this project, I hope that the participants don't mind if I give my two cents.

I strongly disagree with the quote in the OP that calls Duncan's post game as effective as Olajuwon's. Besides the obvious playoff scoring comparison where Duncan doesn't come close, Duncan just didn't have the athleticism, the quickness, nor the array of moves that Olajuwon had in his toolbox. The most evident of Duncan's relative lack of post prowess compared to Hakeem are his unimpressive performances against elite defensive centers in his prime years.

1999 vs. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) -- 18.8 ppg on 46.0 %FG/51.6 %TS
1999 vs. Rasheed Wallace (Portland) -- 16.8 ppg on 52.1 %FG/54.7 %TS
2001 vs. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota) -- 22.5 ppg on 46.6 %FG/51.2 %TS
2005 vs. Marcus Camby (Denver) -- 22.0 ppg on 46.8 %FG/51.3 %TS
2005 vs. Rasheed Wallace (Detroit) -- 20.6 ppg on 41.9 %FG/47.1 %TS
2007 vs. Marcus Camby (Denver) -- 20.2 ppg on 47.3 %FG/49.2 %TS
2007 vs. Anderson Varejao (Cleveland) -- 18.3 ppg on 44.6 %FG/48.3 %TS

Compare that to Hakeem's offensive explosions against Robinson, Ewing, and Shaq in 1994 and 1995. It's literally night and day. I do admit that Duncan is a more intelligent offensive player than his stats show largely due to his terrific IQ. Duncan spotted double teams and made the right pass possibly better than any other player. His bank shot off the backboard has always been praised but it's a low % shot for Timmy. For virtually his entire career (2001-present), Timmy has shot 44.1% from 3-10 feet and 40.6% from 10-16 feet (BRef).

Great post, and even as big Duncan fan, I have to agree with that. I still remember him struggling to score in isolation against Sheed in the '05 finals.

However, if we are talking about peaks, then '03 Duncan didn't have that problem in any round of the playoffs. Kenyon Martin, who was a very good defender at that time, held him to 24.2 ppg on 49.5% FG/54.6% TS, which is a little below his average, but nothing major. His numbers were affected in a way that could be expected, but it was still a pretty good offensive series by TD.

Anyway, I agree with your point that Duncan's post game (or even just scoring) wasn't as effective as Olajuwon's, and that's why Hakeem is going to be my #1 pick here.


I'm curious though how much better duncan could have been at center in 2003 as he would have a bigger quickness advantage over the players guarding him and the substitution of a 4 with range a la robert horry would have made him look. The spurs seemed to be do the opposite of what you ( IIRC ) mentioned the warriors were doing ( putting draymond at 4 was a move designed to sacrifice defense for offense ).

Imagine Hakeem playing next to a guy that takes 56% of his shots inside 3 feet and shot literally 31.0% ( 9-37 in the playoffs ) outside of it. That was 2003 Robinson the starting center who basically wasnt spacing anything for duncan, so he had to deal with a more crowded paint area.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#14 » by JordansBulls » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:19 pm

1st ballot selection: Hakeem 1994 - phenomonal season on both ends of the floor, won league and finals and DPOY

2nd ballot selection: Duncan 2003 - Great overall season especially in the regular season and dominant team record, ended the 3x LAL title as well

3rd ballot selection: Magic 1987 - Great overall season dominant in the season and playoffs with a great overall playoffs record of 15-3.


--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs

Hakeem 1994: 25.3, 0.210----------27.7, 0.208 (23 playoff games, title)
Duncan 2003: 26.9, 0.248------------28.4, 0.279 (24 playoff games, title)

Others to consider:

Magic 1987: 27.0, 0.263-------------26.2, 0.265 (18 playoff games, title)
Bird 1986: 25.6, 0.244--------------23.9, 0.263 (23 playoff games, title)
Moses Malone 1983: 25.1, 0.248 -----25.7, 0.260 (13 playoff games, title)
Dwyane Wade 2006: 27.6, 0.239-------26.9, 0.240 (23 playoff games, title)
Julius Erving 1976: 28.7, 0.262-----32.0, 0.321 (13 playoff games, title) - ABA
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#15 » by RSCD3_ » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:20 pm

1. 2003 Duncan
2. 1995 Robinson
3.

Spoiler:
1. 03 Tim Duncan

Had a great regular season. Notched it up ridiculously in the playoffs. I'll show many examples here and for kicks compare him to the very similarly talked about season of Hakeem 94's playoffs.

RS

31.6 PP100 on 56.4 TS% (+4.5% above league average )

Playoffs

30.6 PP100 on 57.7 TS% (+5.7% above league average )

Playoff Hakeem

35.9 PP100 on 56.8 TS% (+4.0 TS% above league average. )

Slight edge to Hakeem for holding more volume at around the same efficiency.

Rebounding

Regular season 17.5 RP100 on
9.9/27.3/19.0 RB% Splits

Playoffs 19.5 RP100 on
10.3/28.7/19.8 RB% Splits

Playoff Hakeem 14.5 RP100 on
6.8/21.2/14.5 RB% splits

Moderate sized margin to Duncan as he has Hakeem beat on both ends when it comes to rebounding.

Passing

Regular season 5.3 AP100 on 1.51 AST % / TOV % ratio )

Playoffs 6.6 AP100 ( on 1.98 AST % /TOV % ratio )

Playoff Hakeem 5.3 AP100 ( on 1.65 AST % / TOV % ratio )

Hakeem was a great passer for a big but Duncan surpassed him in both the RS and PS. He's a hell of an underrated passer as what he did with that volume of passing is closer to a wing than a center. Decent edge to Tim.

Heck here's the list of 6'9 and up guys who have put together more than one series of over 25 AST% and less than 15 TOV% over 6.0 AP100 in the playoffs [spoiler][url]http://bkref.com/tiny/zIKNf[/url]

Defense

Regular Season 0.9 SP100, 4.0 BP100, 94 DRTG

Playoffs 0.8 SP100 4.1 BP100, 92 DRTG

Playoff Hakeem 2.2 SP100, 5.0 BP100, 95 DRTG



FWIW I think the gap in stats is larger than the actual gap as Duncan makes up in the steal block department with more consistent effort/motor and a slightly sharper defensive mind. He wasn't the best pick and roll player but neither was Hakeem for all his athleticism. Duncan managed to do a fine job with his length and above average athleticism. Let's call this Duncan by an inch.

With all the simplified categories added up I think tim gets the advantage with more than most would think.

Also his finals were glorious


2. 95 David Robinson

He had everything minus back to the basket scoring you'd look for in traditional bigs. Top tier passing. Goat level defense. Excellent off ball / offensive rebounding. Great at facing up and drawing fouls / finishing. A very good rebounder. His scoring dropped off in the playoffs but he was still very good in other areas.

It's just Duncan managed to outperform him in the playoffs by such an amount, that I think being a playoffs guy I have to put him over.

Stats

RS

36.9 PP100 on 60.5 TS% ( +6.2% above League Average ) 14.5 RP100 (9.1/22.6/16.2 RB%'s) 3.9 AP100 (1.23 AST%/TOV % ratio )

120/99 ORTG/DRTG rating
27.3 WS/48, (4.1/4.3) 8.4 BPM

PlS

32.6 PP100 on 53.6 TS% ( -0.7% below league average) 15.4 RP100 (10.7/22.2/16.6 RB%'s) 4.0 AP100 (on 1.06 AST%/TOV% ratio )

108 / 98 ORTG/DRTG rating
17.6 WS/48, (2.5/4.2) 6.7 BPM

An beyond the stats when it comes to Hakeem Vs D-Rob, Ill say that Robinson had the better RS and a very nearly comparable Postseason to Hakeem, Hakeem was better on offense in 1994 which I call his Peak but his defense wasnt quite at the level of Robinson's due to the GOAT level vs merely very good Pick and Roll defense in the case of Hakeem, while hakeem's post offense might have a higher ceiling on one man teams I believe that Robinson's abilities off ball and such are more portable and can provide more lifts to higher levels of teammates as well. Their rebounding and passing is nearly a wash and I like Robinson's defense a little more than I like Hakeem's offense over robinson. Say David was a 60 offensively and a 100 Defensively while Hakeem was a 70/90


3rd. 94 Hakeem great year on offense and defense, managed to bring the offense of 1 in 4 out into the fold based on a combination of Great Isolation Post-up's and very good Smart Passing. He was put in a position to succeed offensively based on the forward thinking of the coach and he performed admirably. His defense was Amazing, a single step below goat level and his offense was Very good for a big, with Kareem, Shaq, Duncan being the only centers/interior big men i would definitely take over him offensively.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#16 » by eminence » Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:49 pm

Not really relevant quite yet as I feel the real elite two way big men will continue to dominate the polls for a bit (Duncan and the like). But how do people like to compare the elite offensive big-men who lack a bit on defense to the elite offensive perimeter players (who have a bit of a cap to how much they can contribute on defense). Guys like Karl/Barkley/Dirk vs Magic/Curry and the like. In general when I first look at it the perimeter players usually bring a bit more offensively while the big guys have a bit more value on defense. But an idea I've been toying with recently is that the big men are costing there team a bit in kind of an opportunity cost kind of way on defense, where the guards aren't, so the guards are inching ahead in my mind. Any value to this thought path or any other thoughts on it from anyone else?
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#17 » by thizznation » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:34 pm

My ballot, in order.

94 Hakeem - I believe Hakeem peaked the highest in terms of two way play out of the remaining players. In 94 he won DPOY (not saying the other nominees were worthy of DPOY) while anchoring an offense and won the championship. Duncan is right there with Hakeem defensively but I think the difference in body types lets Hakeem cover a little more ground and overall contest more shots. Hakeem has a perfected two way game with drawing double teams and being able to make the pass out of it. Hakeem is pretty hard to game plan against when he gets going, you either single cover and hold on for dear life or send doubles and pray you don't get torched by the open 3.

95 David Robinson - The deal breaker between Hakeem and Robinson and Timmy for me was top level athleticism. Even though 03 Timmy is a good athlete and probably underrated in this aspect in many circles, Hakeem and especially Robinson are a level above. And as I mentioned before this ends up giving you more range of coverage of the floor. I have said this a few times already but when placing Robinson here I have minor reservations because of giving him a pass for decline in post season production and giving his defensive rebounding a pass due to playing with Dennis Rodman.

03 Duncan - Plenty has been said about Duncan already. I liked that his intangibles were brought up in an earlier post in this thread. I agree and believe he is a very special player in this regard. This with his reliable offense, elite defense and rebounding, and so said intangibles, it's very hard to find any weaknesses in his game. As I said before the deal breaker for me with Timmy was I think he gets slightly outclassed athletically by Hakeem and Robinson.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#18 » by Dr Positivity » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:38 pm

eminence wrote:Not really relevant quite yet as I feel the real elite two way big men will continue to dominate the polls for a bit (Duncan and the like). But how do people like to compare the elite offensive big-men who lack a bit on defense to the elite offensive perimeter players (who have a bit of a cap to how much they can contribute on defense). Guys like Karl/Barkley/Dirk vs Magic/Curry and the like. In general when I first look at it the perimeter players usually bring a bit more offensively while the big guys have a bit more value on defense. But an idea I've been toying with recently is that the big men are costing there team a bit in kind of an opportunity cost kind of way on defense, where the guards aren't, so the guards are inching ahead in my mind. Any value to this thought path or any other thoughts on it from anyone else?


Good post and for me it comes back to the question of which season would I "draft". That's why I'm not as high on Barkley on the ATL as most. Many years ago after Barkley easily beat Ewing on a top 100 as he always does, I started a thread asking which career would you build a team around/draft. And more than half the people took Ewing. Because despite the offensive stats and MVP voting success on Barkley's end, building around a defensive center who's good at offense, proved to be more appealing to many people to build around than an offensive juggernaut PF who leaves you with a significant defensive opportunity cost at PF. That's before considering the lockerroom malcontent problems Barkley brings vs a hard worker in Ewing. Having Ewing on your team for a decade+ is a very appealing situation and it got the Knicks one game from a title despite not much around him. I'd probably take that over guys who are routinely put ahead of him on the ATL like Barkley and Moses. I'm probably going to push him pretty early in this project as well, how many seasons are more valuable than having 89-90 Ewing at 28.6 pt/10.9 reb/4 blk/.60 TS%, and he had a good playoffs

So would I rather draft Curry or Dirk for example? Right now I think I'd go with the perimeter star in Curry but I could be persuaded
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#19 » by Jim Naismith » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:35 pm

RSCD3_ wrote:I'm curious though how much better duncan could have been at center in 2003 as he would have a bigger quickness advantage over the players guarding him and the substitution of a 4 with range a la robert horry would have made him look. The spurs seemed to be do the opposite of what you ( IIRC ) mentioned the warriors were doing ( putting draymond at 4 was a move designed to sacrifice defense for offense ).

Imagine Hakeem playing next to a guy that takes 56% of his shots inside 3 feet and shot literally 31.0% ( 9-37 in the playoffs ) outside of it. That was 2003 Robinson the starting center who basically wasnt spacing anything for duncan, so he had to deal with a more crowded paint area.


If 2003 Duncan played center, he would have had to expend energy guarding Shaq. I'm not sure that's a net plus for Duncan. Having a former DPOY be your center is still a major advantage.
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Re: Peaks project #6 

Post#20 » by trex_8063 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:22 am

eminence wrote:Not really relevant quite yet as I feel the real elite two way big men will continue to dominate the polls for a bit (Duncan and the like). But how do people like to compare the elite offensive big-men who lack a bit on defense to the elite offensive perimeter players (who have a bit of a cap to how much they can contribute on defense). Guys like Karl/Barkley/Dirk vs Magic/Curry and the like. In general when I first look at it the perimeter players usually bring a bit more offensively while the big guys have a bit more value on defense. But an idea I've been toying with recently is that the big men are costing there team a bit in kind of an opportunity cost kind of way on defense, where the guards aren't, so the guards are inching ahead in my mind. Any value to this thought path or any other thoughts on it from anyone else?


There's value to this line of thought, for sure. Though fwiw, lumping Karl in with Barkley and Dirk (as far as defense is concerned) is not at all accurate. He's probably at least 1-2 tiers (depending on how many tiers you favor) ahead of each of them defensively: he was a solid low-post defender and the master of "pulling the chair", was good on pnr D, better than most PF's if caught guarding a perimeter player on a switch (because he had good quickness and was giving solid effort on defense), and was quick enough that he gambled well on passing lanes (note his stl/100 poss and stl% stats very nearly rival that of Lebron James......that's awfully damn good for PF). Note also was 4-time All-Defensive Team (3 of those 1st team), fwiw.

So....he's not Draymond Green, but he's definitely getting you your money's worth on defense.
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