Peaks Project #23

[trex_8063]

RealGM Greatest Player Peaks of All-Time List
1. Michael Jordan ('91---unanimous)
2. Shaquille O'Neal ('00---unanimous)
3. Lebron James ('13---non-unanimous ('09, '12))
4. Wilt Chamberlain ('67---non-unanimous ('64))
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar ('77---non-unanimous ('71, '72))
6. Hakeem Olajuwon ('94---non-unanimous ('93))
7. Tim Duncan ('03---non-unanimous ('02))
8. Kevin Garnett ('04---unanimous)
9. Bill Russell ('65---non-unanimous ('62, '64))
10. Magic Johnson ('87---unanimous)
11. Larry Bird ('86---non-unanimous ('87, '88))
12. David Robinson ('95---non-unanimous ('94, '96))
13. Bill Walton ('77---unanimous)
14. Julius Erving ('76---unanimous)
15. Oscar Robertson ('64---non-unanimous ('63))
16. Dwyane Wade ('09---non-unanimous ('06, '10))
17. Stephen Curry ('15---unanimous)
18. Dirk Nowitzki ('11---non-unanimous ('06, '09))
19. Jerry West ('66---non-unanimous ('68, '69))
20. Kevin Durant ('14---unanimous)
21. Patrick Ewing ('90---unanimous)
22. Tracy McGrady ('03---unanimous)
23. ????

Target stop time will be late Tuesday night.

And so there's no future confusion: if a thread is to go into a run-off between two players, I will.....
a) Make a post clearly stating "we are officially entering a 24-hour run-off between player x and player y".
b) Change the title of the thread to reflect that we are in a run-off, clearly naming both players within the title.

.....like I did the one time we had a run-off between Dr. J and Walton; just like penbeast did every time we had a run-off in the top 100 project. If the above "a" and "b" things have not happened, then we are NOT in a run-off.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

[trex_8063]

1st ballot: Chris Paul '15
Kinda went thru Paul a bit in post 15 of the #19 thread. Basically he's someone I don't put too far behind Nash as an offensive engine, and obviously better defensively (a clear net positive defensively by all available impact indicators, who also received All-D 1st team this year, fwiw). Had mentioned I'd consider putting him ahead of McGrady; well, now I've done so based on his more complete 2-way game. Am waffling a little wrt what year to call his peak ('08 is obviously phenomenal, too). Impact appears so massive in '15, though, where he logged the highest offensive on/off on record (even over '83 Moses), and the 2nd highest total on/off (behind---barely---only '09 Lebron). There's line-up noise to this, obv, even via apparently recently released RAPM, he came up 5th in league in ORAPM, 3rd in overall RAPM (behind only Lebron and barely behind the peak we voted in at #17--->'15 Curry).
And fwiw, I think '15 Paul is capable of larger volume numbers (to create larger PER, BPM, etc) if he were on a less talented squad; somewhere where, for instance, there was not an offensive talent as big as Blake Griffin.


2nd ballot: Charles Barkley '90

"I tend to think of Barkley's peak as '90, as opposed to '93 (or ‘91, which I think is very close, too). '90 was more the culmination of skills and physical peak to me. No doubt his playmaking was a bit improved in '93; and Spaceman mentioned his improved proficiency from the mid-range (and greater willingness to use it) by '93, and stated this as a good thing. But tbh, I'm not sure it is a good thing for Barkley.

Because the thing is: he never really reached a point where he was a legitimately "good" mid-range shooter; fair or "not bad", but not actually good (at least not at all compared to the upshot that was present when he attacked the rim). And him taking nearly 3 attempts/game from trey at 30.5% isn't what I would call a good thing either.
Few things I note in relation to this greater willingness to shoot from mid-range or long range in ‘93: he had the lowest FG% since his rookie season, the lowest eFG% of his career to that point, the lowest FTr of his entire career (both before and after ‘93; by far lower than any year prior to ‘93), and the lowest TS% of his career to that point. Basically, many of the things that led to him being at or near the top of the league in 2Pt%, eFG%, and TS% (year-after-year) vanished in '93 as result of this greater tendency to shoot far from the basket.

Perhaps it could be argued the silver lining was that this opened the floor up a little to help the team offense or some such. Pro-'93 crowd would likely wish to point out that they were the #1 offense that year (+5.3 rORTG); however, this team was +3.9 rORTG (5th in league) the year before Barkley arrived (though he wasn’t the only roster change). But point still stands: this was a talented offensive team even without Barkley.

I'm frankly more impressed with the +5.4 rORTG (2nd in league) he anchored in '90 with a supporting cast of Hersey Hawkins, Johnny Dawkins, Mike Gminski, Rick Mahorn, Ron Anderson, and Derek Smith, than I am with a +5.3 rORTG with a supporting cast of Kevin Johnson, Dan Majerle, Tom Chambers, Cedric Ceballos, Danny Ainge, Mark West, Richard Dumas, and Oliver Miller. And his individual numbers probably marginally more impressive in '90, too.

Take for instance him shooting >63% from 2pt range in THREE separate seasons ('90 was one of them); on his kind of volume, that’s insane. Seriously, who, outside of low-volume guys like Tyson Chandler or Chris Andersen ever shoots >63% from inside the arc? Even ‘67 Wilt doesn’t quite match…...you don’t even have to adjust for pace, merely adjust for minutes: if you do a search for all seasons in NBA history of >13 FGA/36 minutes, >63% 2Pt%, and >27 mpg you come up with precisely two seasons…..and BOTH of them are Barkley (‘89 and ‘90).
Honestly, in that circa-’90 era of his career he has a case as the surest two points or two FT attempts in NBA history.

So I tend to think of that time period as his offensive peak (and offense is really what you're talking about with Charles Barkley). "



And Dipper followed it up with this:

Honestly, in that circa-’90 era of his career he has a case as the surest two points or two FT attempts in NBA history.

Yes indeed. In the original 100 game sample of Barkley he was shooting 81.0% at the rim on 8.2 FGA. But I did not do the Synergy chart for the last 16 games. In the original 84 game sample (includes Synergy chart and Shot Chart), he was shooting 81.0% at the rim on 7.9 FGA per game. If we subtract all transition plays, the total is 467/574 for 81.3%. Even looking at half court plays only, Barkley's effectiveness is virtually unchanged at the rim.

But getting into the synergy plays, he was actually more efficient in multiple half court plays than he was on the fastbreak, which is saying something given how terrific he was in transition (1.6 PPP, 78.7% FG).

PPP is Points Per Play.


Post Up - 1.64 PPP, 76.5% FG, 3.5 FGA

Off. Rebound - 1.65 PPP, 78.2% FG, 2.1 FGA

Cut To Basket - 2.14 PPP, 100% FG, 0.9 FGA


As can be seen above, he was completely indefensible in the post, on the offensive glass, or cutting to the basket (100% FG). While he was definitely stoppable in isolation that was primarily due to him settling for the outside shot as you mentioned or if the defense could quickly close off the front of the rim and force an off balance leaning shot. Barkley was very efficient going to the basket no matter what, though he was most comfortable in the post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6HkjByWLFU&t=1h17m3s


How do you defend this for instance, he spins out of playoff double teams so easily like a practice drill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmjUpA3UVlA&t=3m6s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsTKc_AKSlU&t=8m5s

3rd ballot: Moses Malone '83
Been putting Moses off for awhile, largely out of concerns that he was a "one-trick pony" (offensive rebounding). But he was so much better than nearly everyone else at that, that he was able to exert a fairly large offensive impact (second highest offensive on/off we have record of, though line-up noise caused by his weak replacement contributes to this). He dominated many of his H2H match-ups against other elite centers, and had a great foul-draw rate; was a 76.1% FT-shooter this year (pretty elite for a center).
And as noted a thread or two ago, I've perhaps been under-crediting his defense in '83: he was All-Def 1st team (for what that's worth), was indeed a good man defender, and managed 2.5 blk/100 possessions while still being elite on the defensive glass.


Next up (or potential alternates) for me: Kobe, Karl Malone, Nash; and probably James Harden, actually.

[bastillon]

If people didn't focus so much on RS stats (almost meaningless games most of the time), then Kobe would be voted in already. He had a better playoff run in 08 than TMac 03, Wade 09, Curry 15 and Durant 14. Really hard to justify those guys over Kobe based on the postseason.

There is some profound irony that Kobe will be voted in at least 8 spots after Wade when in fact he was universally recognized as being better than Wade throughout every year of their careers. I know that Kobe was once overrated due to his high volume scoring, but the same goes for Wade and other high volume scorers.

After Kobe, Nash should be strongly considered. Led all time great offenses, the best offensive player of his generation, extremely consistent playoff performer, huge impact on shooting % of his teammates. Should've been voted in ahead of Curry who is inferior in the playoffs and much less consistent vs top teams.

Going by decades:

60s
Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West are in, the rest are so inferior they are not even in the discussion.

70s
Kareem, Walton, Dr J are in, the rest are irrelevant at this point. The most close would be A-Train 75 or someone on the Knicks, either Reed or Frazier. But this is really not that level yet.

80s
Bird, Magic are in. Moses is getting mentioned. I would propose considering McHale '86. McHale 87 had a better RS but was injured in the playoffs. I think 86 playoff McHale was basically the same as during 87 RS.

90s
Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing are in. There are some huge candidates from the 90s. Barkley 90/93. Karl Malone 93-95 (to me 94 is his peak). There is Pippen 94, Penny 97, Kemp 96, Drexler 90/92.

00s
Shaq, LeBron, Duncan, KG, Dirk, Wade, Curry, Durant, TMac. Both Kobe 08 and Nash 06 should have been voted in by now. Then there is CP3. We can start thinking slowly about Dwight and Harden at this point.

so this is the group of guys to consider:

older guys - A-Train, Frazier, Reed, Moses, McHale
newer guys - Barkley, Mailman, Pippen, Penny, Kemp, Drexler, Kobe, Nash, Harden

I'd put them in this order:
1. Kobe
2. Nash
3. Mailman
4. Moses
5. Barkley
6. McHale
7. Paul
8. Pippen
9. Harden
10. Dwight

[theonlyclutch]

If people didn't focus so much on RS stats (almost meaningless games most of the time), then Kobe would be voted in already. He had a better playoff run in 08 than TMac 03, Wade 09, Curry 15 and Durant 14. Really hard to justify those guys over Kobe based on the postseason.

There is some profound irony that Kobe will be voted in at least 8 spots after Wade when in fact he was universally recognized as being better than Wade throughout every year of their careers. I know that Kobe was once overrated due to his high volume scoring, but the same goes for Wade and other high volume scorers.

After Kobe, Nash should be strongly considered. Led all time great offenses, the best offensive player of his generation, extremely consistent playoff performer, huge impact on shooting % of his teammates. Should've been voted in ahead of Curry who is inferior in the playoffs and much less consistent vs top teams.

Going by decades:

60s
Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West are in, the rest are so inferior they are not even in the discussion.

70s
Kareem, Walton, Dr J are in, the rest are irrelevant at this point. The most close would be A-Train 75 or someone on the Knicks, either Reed or Frazier. But this is really not that level yet.

80s
Bird, Magic are in. Moses is getting mentioned. I would propose considering McHale '86. McHale 87 had a better RS but was injured in the playoffs. I think 86 playoff McHale was basically the same as during 87 RS.

90s
Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing are in. There are some huge candidates from the 90s. Barkley 90/93. Karl Malone 93-95 (to me 94 is his peak). There is Pippen 94, Penny 97, Kemp 96, Drexler 90/92.

00s
Shaq, LeBron, Duncan, KG, Dirk, Wade, Curry, Durant, TMac. Both Kobe 08 and Nash 06 should have been voted in by now. Then there is CP3. We can start thinking slowly about Dwight and Harden at this point.

so this is the group of guys to consider:

older guys - A-Train, Frazier, Reed, Moses, McHale
newer guys - Barkley, Mailman, Pippen, Penny, Kemp, Drexler, Kobe, Nash, Harden

I'd put them in this order:
1. Kobe
2. Nash
3. Mailman
4. Moses
5. Barkley
6. McHale
7. Paul
8. Pippen
9. Harden
10. Dwight

If RS Stats are "meaningless" then what the hell is the Mailman of all people, as well as guys like Pippen doing so high up?

[Quotatious]

If people didn't focus so much on RS stats (almost meaningless games most of the time), then Kobe would be voted in already. He had a better playoff run in 08 than TMac 03, Wade 09, Curry 15 and Durant 14. Really hard to justify those guys over Kobe based on the postseason.

I agree that Kobe's best playoff run (which was IMO '01 or '09, and '08 would be the third best, with '10 being very close, too) was better than '14 Durant and '15 Curry, but '03 T-Mac and '09 Wade didn't really have playoff "runs" at all. You can't really say that 7 games in one round is a "run". That's just one series, same as Kobe had in '06. All three players took clearly superior teams to 7 games (I mean '03 McGrady, '06 Bryant, '09 Wade), so you can say the Magic, Lakers and Heat already overachieved. On paper, it seemed like they should've lost in 5 or 6 (McGrady and Bryant even led their teams to a 3-1 lead in those series). '08 Kobe vs '03 T-Mac and '09 Wade is basically apples to oranges comparison, if you put so much emphasis on playoffs.

There is some profound irony that Kobe will be voted in at least 8 spots after Wade when in fact he was universally recognized as being better than Wade throughout every year of their careers. I know that Kobe was once overrated due to his high volume scoring, but the same goes for Wade and other high volume scorers.

Well, you can always pick '06 as Wade's peak, and his playoff run that year was at least as good as any of Kobe's (not even just his finals against Dallas were phenomenal, but also his series against Detroit in ECF - if you really value postseason performance in conference finals/NBA finals, against strong defenses, more than anything else, then you should be pretty high on '06 Wade - and please don't even start talking about the supposed help that Wade got from the refs - in that Detroit series, he averaged 2 FTA/G less than he did in the regular season).

Penny 97

I'd easily take '96 over '97 for Penny. 82 RS games compared to 59 is a big difference, not to mention that '96 was clearly better on a game-by-game basis, and '96 was pretty good in the playoffs. I'd even take '95 over '97 (but anyway, '96 was clearly Penny's peak, to me).

Drexler 90/92

Drexler was much better in '92 than he was in '90, IMO.

If RS Stats are "meaningless" then what the hell is the Mailman of all people, as well as guys like Pippen doing so high up?

Yeah, I don't get it, either. Besides, I can't see Pippen over Howard for peak. Dwight was considerably more impactful defensively (I really don't believe any non-bigman ever approached peak Howard in terms of defensive impact), Howard was better in the playoffs, and a far better scorer, someone who warped opposing defenses much more than Pippen, even if Howard's playmaking is basically nonexistent compared to Pippen's.

IMO '15 Harden is clearly better than peak Pippen, too.

I'd strongly consider taking peak KJ over Pippen, as well. Peak KJ was an offensive monster. 2000 Alonzo Mourning was probably better than Pippen ever was, too.

[Quotatious]

By the way - I'll have to refrain from voting, for two reasons:

1. I've had very little free time lately.

2. I'm very confused as far as my criteria. For example, RebelWithACause was right that I was inconsistent (back when we were talking about Dr J and West). I'll try to chime in if I feel like I might have something important to add, as I just did in the previous post, but I won't vote.

[BasketballFan7]

By the way - I'll have to refrain from voting, for two reasons:

1. I've had very little free time lately.

2. I'm very confused as far as my criteria. For example, RebelWithACause was right that I was inconsistent (back when we were talking about Dr J and West). I'll try to chime in if I feel like I might have something important to add, as I just did in the previous post, but I won't vote.

As a spectator, I would appreciate it if you would continue to give input.

[70sFan]

1st ballot - Moses Malone 1983
2nd ballot - Charles Barkley 1990
3rd ballot - Kobe Bryant 2003/2008/2009

I'm choosing Kobe over McAdoo because he is a wasted vote right now. Nobody takes him as high as I (even though he is a good candidate). So I think Kobe should be next, he was unstoppable in his prime. I think overall his best season is 2008. I know, bad finals... But he played against one of the best defensive teams ever - 2008 Celtics were amazing at defend perimeter. On the other hand, he killed defending champions. I hate Kobe for his amazing performances vs my Spurs, but I have also great respect for him. Truly amazing player, one of the best offensive players in his generation.

[70sFan]

If people didn't focus so much on RS stats (almost meaningless games most of the time), then Kobe would be voted in already. He had a better playoff run in 08 than TMac 03, Wade 09, Curry 15 and Durant 14. Really hard to justify those guys over Kobe based on the postseason.

There is some profound irony that Kobe will be voted in at least 8 spots after Wade when in fact he was universally recognized as being better than Wade throughout every year of their careers. I know that Kobe was once overrated due to his high volume scoring, but the same goes for Wade and other high volume scorers.

After Kobe, Nash should be strongly considered. Led all time great offenses, the best offensive player of his generation, extremely consistent playoff performer, huge impact on shooting % of his teammates. Should've been voted in ahead of Curry who is inferior in the playoffs and much less consistent vs top teams.

Going by decades:

60s
Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West are in, the rest are so inferior they are not even in the discussion.

70s
Kareem, Walton, Dr J are in, the rest are irrelevant at this point. The most close would be A-Train 75 or someone on the Knicks, either Reed or Frazier. But this is really not that level yet.

80s
Bird, Magic are in. Moses is getting mentioned. I would propose considering McHale '86. McHale 87 had a better RS but was injured in the playoffs. I think 86 playoff McHale was basically the same as during 87 RS.

90s
Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing are in. There are some huge candidates from the 90s. Barkley 90/93. Karl Malone 93-95 (to me 94 is his peak). There is Pippen 94, Penny 97, Kemp 96, Drexler 90/92.

00s
Shaq, LeBron, Duncan, KG, Dirk, Wade, Curry, Durant, TMac. Both Kobe 08 and Nash 06 should have been voted in by now. Then there is CP3. We can start thinking slowly about Dwight and Harden at this point.

so this is the group of guys to consider:

older guys - A-Train, Frazier, Reed, Moses, McHale
newer guys - Barkley, Mailman, Pippen, Penny, Kemp, Drexler, Kobe, Nash, Harden

I'd put them in this order:
1. Kobe
2. Nash
3. Mailman
4. Moses
5. Barkley
6. McHale
7. Paul
8. Pippen
9. Harden
10. Dwight

You missed some older guys:
- Bob Petit (you have Karl, McHale and Dwight but no Petit? One of the most underrated players ever)
- Elgin Baylor (another strong candidate, cleraly better than Pippen in my opinion)
- Rick Barry
- John Havlicek (he isn't as good as the others, but was he really worse at his peak than Pippen? I don't think so)
- Bill Cunningham (another VERY UNDERRATED player)
- Bob McAdoo (one of the greatest scoring machines ever at his peak)

[Narigo]

1. 1997 Karl Malone
Going with 1997 Karl Malone over 1990 Charles Barkley and 2006 Kobe Bryant.
Karl Malone is one of the greatest off ball big man ever. Excellent roll man and hes really good at getting in position to score. Pretty good spot up shooter.

2. 1990 Charles Barkley
Unguardable in iso and post situations. Good Ball Handler, Passer and good in transition. I pick 1990 over 1993 because he was more athletic and efficient from the field. Shot 63% on 2 point shots in 1990.

Was considered to be as good as prime MJ and Magic Johnson in 1990. In fact, he had the most first place votes for MVP.

3. 2008 Kobe Bryant
Its tough but I lean toward 08 as his peak over 2006. He put more effort on the defensive end. He led the Lakers to the best record in the western conference pre-Gasol trade. 2006 Kobe may be his best offensive season but he was a better all around player in 2008.

[thizznation]

I want to start voting for Barkley but his very poor defense is holding me back.

How do you guys feel about this statement? "If your PF sucks at defense, it is extremely hard to win a Championship."

I'm trying to think of Championship teams that have played a PF at huge minutes that was as poor of a defender as Charles Barkley and I can't really think of one.

[trex_8063]

I'm trying to think of Championship teams that have played a PF at huge minutes that was as poor of a defender as Charles Barkley and I can't really think of one.

fwiw, there's been some data presented to suggest that Barkley around '89-'91 wasn't as bad defensively as his reputation generally suggests.

wrt your question.....
Boston Celtics of '57, '59-'65 (Heinsohn).
'75 Warriors???? (Derrek Dickey---I don't think he was anything special defensively---with I think Wilkes filling a little time at PF (out of his usual position), too)
'80 Lakers???? (Jim Chones and a washed up Spencer Haywood)

[Clyde Frazier]

I want to start voting for Barkley but his very poor defense is holding me back.

How do you guys feel about this statement? "If your PF sucks at defense, it is extremely hard to win a Championship."

I'm trying to think of Championship teams that have played a PF at huge minutes that was as poor of a defender as Charles Barkley and I can't really think of one.

Like I said in a previous thread, I think calling Barkley a "very poor" defender is pushing it. To me, that constitutes a defensive liability ala amare, David Lee or boozer. Put it this way: pair Barkley with a tyson chandler level center, and I don't see any reason to worry about him defensively.

[Clyde Frazier]

Still traveling / on vacation, so mostly will just be getting my ballots in this week with a little discussion here and there. More than likely going with Barkley and Kobe with first 2 ballots. Undecided on 3rd. Glad to see McGrady get the recognition he deserves.

[Dr Positivity]

Ballot 1: Kobe Bryant 2008

Ballot 2: Chris Paul 2008

Ballot 3: Karl Malone 1995

Torn between Malone and Barkley and which Malone year to pick. Ultimately I trust Malone's defense and personality more and I chose 95 because I tried to find a middle ground between having his perimeter game with as much athleticism as possible

[thizznation]

I want to start voting for Barkley but his very poor defense is holding me back.

How do you guys feel about this statement? "If your PF sucks at defense, it is extremely hard to win a Championship."

I'm trying to think of Championship teams that have played a PF at huge minutes that was as poor of a defender as Charles Barkley and I can't really think of one.

Like I said in a previous thread, I think calling Barkley a "very poor" defender is pushing it. To me, that constitutes a defensive liability ala amare, David Lee or boozer. Put it this way: pair Barkley with a tyson chandler level center, and I don't see any reason to worry about him defensively.

I may be exaggerating but I have seen some pretty crazy plays from Barkley in games I have watched. He has moments of complete mental lapse and becomes a turnstyle. Earlier I was checking out the defensive ratings of Barkley's team throughout his career and it wasn't pretty.

85 76ers - Def Rtg: 107.3 (10th of 23)
86 76ers - Def Rtg: 106.3 (11th of 23)
87 76ers - Def Rtg: 108.5 (12th of 23)
88 76ers - Def Rtg: 110.3 (19th of 23)
89 76ers - Def Rtg: 111.5 (24th of 25)
90 76ers - Def Rtg: 108.4 (16th of 27)
91 76ers - Def Rtg: 108.1 (16th of 27)
92 76ers - Def Rtg: 109.7 (18th of 27)
93 Suns - Def Rtg: 106.7 (9th of 27)
94 Suns - Def Rtg: 106.8 (16th of 27)
95 Suns - Def Rtg: 110.4 (19th of 27)
96 Suns - Def Rtg: 110.0 (23rd of 29)
97 Hou - Def Rtg: 104.0 (10th of 29)
98 Hou - Def Rtg: 108.6 (25th of 29)
99 Hou - Def Rtg: 102.9 (15th of 29)
00 Hou - Def Rtg: 105.7 (19th of 29)


A trend we see in all 3 of the teams that Barkley joined, is that they were decent defenders when Barkley first joined the squad. After Barkley establishes himself with the team, the defensive rating falls. Every time. There might be more context behind these defensive declines of Barkely's teams but when it happens 3 times in a row there seems to be a clear pattern that is forming.

[thizznation]

I'm trying to think of Championship teams that have played a PF at huge minutes that was as poor of a defender as Charles Barkley and I can't really think of one.

fwiw, there's been some data presented to suggest that Barkley around '89-'91 wasn't as bad defensively as his reputation generally suggests.

wrt your question.....
Boston Celtics of '57, '59-'65 (Heinsohn).
'75 Warriors???? (Derrek Dickey---I don't think he was anything special defensively---with I think Wilkes filling a little time at PF (out of his usual position), too)
'80 Lakers???? (Jim Chones and a washed up Spencer Haywood)

Nice work on your answer. Those are some pretty obscure names.

I will re-read some of the threads regarding Barkleys defense. Like I said earlier in the thread I have always viewed Barkley's defense as being poor based on eye test and his team's defensive results.

Also with your answer it does show that those guys weren't playing as big of a role on the team as Barkley. My point being that if you have your Power Forward focusing so much of his energy on offense and being somewhat of a one way player, it is very detrimental to your team's defense. Rather than if you had a guard or even your wing taking on a similar offensive role.

[Clyde Frazier]

Spoiler:

I want to start voting for Barkley but his very poor defense is holding me back.

How do you guys feel about this statement? "If your PF sucks at defense, it is extremely hard to win a Championship."

I'm trying to think of Championship teams that have played a PF at huge minutes that was as poor of a defender as Charles Barkley and I can't really think of one.

Like I said in a previous thread, I think calling Barkley a "very poor" defender is pushing it. To me, that constitutes a defensive liability ala amare, David Lee or boozer. Put it this way: pair Barkley with a tyson chandler level center, and I don't see any reason to worry about him defensively.

I may be exaggerating but I have seen some pretty crazy plays from Barkley in games I have watched. He has moments of complete mental lapse and becomes a turnstyle. Earlier I was checking out the defensive ratings of Barkley's team throughout his career and it wasn't pretty.

85 76ers - Def Rtg: 107.3 (10th of 23)
86 76ers - Def Rtg: 106.3 (11th of 23)
87 76ers - Def Rtg: 108.5 (12th of 23)
88 76ers - Def Rtg: 110.3 (19th of 23)
89 76ers - Def Rtg: 111.5 (24th of 25)
90 76ers - Def Rtg: 108.4 (16th of 27)
91 76ers - Def Rtg: 108.1 (16th of 27)
92 76ers - Def Rtg: 109.7 (18th of 27)
93 Suns - Def Rtg: 106.7 (9th of 27)
94 Suns - Def Rtg: 106.8 (16th of 27)
95 Suns - Def Rtg: 110.4 (19th of 27)
96 Suns - Def Rtg: 110.0 (23rd of 29)
97 Hou - Def Rtg: 104.0 (10th of 29)
98 Hou - Def Rtg: 108.6 (25th of 29)
99 Hou - Def Rtg: 102.9 (15th of 29)
00 Hou - Def Rtg: 105.7 (19th of 29)


A trend we see in all 3 of the teams that Barkley joined, is that they were decent defenders when Barkley first joined the squad. After Barkley establishes himself with the team, the defensive rating falls. Every time. There might be more context behind these defensive declines of Barkely's teams but when it happens 3 times in a row there seems to be a clear pattern that is forming.

My post in the top 100 project kinda points in a different direction. Barkley's teams improved significantly overall every place he played once he go there. It's pretty clear to me that on Philly the overall talent just diminished on that team over time relative to when he got there. I also provide some context on the PHX years:

Philly
- 83-84: 52-30, 2.39 SRS
- 84-85: 58-24, 4.17 SRS (barkley's rookie year)

Phoenix
- 91-92: 53-29, 5.69 SRS
- 92-93: 62-20, 6.27 SRS (barkley's first year with the suns, taking them to the finals)

Houston
- 95-96: 48-34, 1.63 SRS
- 96-97: 57-25 3.85 SRS (barkley's first year with the rockets)

While the suns finals appearance in 93 would be their best finish after acquiring barkley, they had 3 straight seasons of 56+ wins in his 4 years there. One of the main culprits here was injuries to his best teammates. In barkley's 4 years in PHX, kevin johnson only played in 49, 67, 47, and 56 games respectively. In 95-96, barkley's last season in phoenix, danny manning only played 33 games, and their 3rd leading scorer was a rookie michael finley.

viewtopic.php?p=40963683#p40963683

To add, I don't think his defense was the reason they didn't beat the bulls in 93. The bulls were just that much better than the suns. And like I said, put him alongside a good defensive center, and I don't see his slippage from time to time being a big deal.

[Clyde Frazier]

Ballot #1 - 93 Barkley

Spoiler:

Totally see a case for 90 being his peak, but I like Barkley’s more refined game in PHX where he was still an excellent athlete (and in amazing shape), but was a little less reckless. Of course he had more talent around him, but I think that slightly toned down version helped them get as far as they did in the postseason. I’m not quite sure 90 barkley gets them there.

93 WCF game 7 against the sonics - 44 PTS / 22 REB / 1 AST / 1 STL / 1 BLK / 74.1% TS / 167 ORTG

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP1MV2rSxIU[/youtube]

Ballot #2 - 09 Kobe

Spoiler:

Kobe is right there for me next to McGrady, and 09 was probably his best combination of reg season and post season play. Questioning his shot selection is a valid argument against him, but his playmaking and chemistry with pau made up for it as far as i'm concerned. This may sound like i'm stating the obvious, but i'm not sure kobe gets enough credit for the "pair him with a dominant big man and you're very likely going to win a championship" formula. Shows even with his huge ego that he's able to adapt to teammates and get results.

Ballot #3 - 08 Paul

Could change my vote by the next thread, but at least comfortable with Paul here for now. As an aside, only 6 players in NBA history have had a higher single season WS/48 mark than 09 Paul (min 65 GP). Going with 08 as it was his better combo of reg season and post season play. More than deserving of MVP that season, too.

- - - - - - - - - -

Totally random, but what are people's thoughts on 2014 love? Box score #s are through the roof, and he had an on/off of +10.9 that season. The wolves' actual per 100 splits while he was on the court were 111.6/106, and they ranked 9th in SRS that season despite them going 40-42. Don't look like empty stats to me as some have suggested over the last year or 2.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2014.html

Also think my namesake (in 1970) deserves consideration soon:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/1970.html

[eminence]

1st Ballot: Chris Paul 07-08

2nd Ballot: Kobe Bryant 08-09 07-08 would be a fine choice as well.

3rd Ballot: Moses Malone 82-83 Let me start by admitting I really really dislike Moses' style of play. But it worked, and at least some data supports it being very very high impact.

I'll have to take some time this week to figure out my ballot going forward, as this is as far as I've really gotten so far.