Peaks Project #24

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Peaks Project #24 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:35 am

RealGM Greatest Player Peaks of All-Time List
1. Michael Jordan ('91---unanimous)
2. Shaquille O'Neal ('00---unanimous)
3. Lebron James ('13---non-unanimous ('09, '12))
4. Wilt Chamberlain ('67---non-unanimous ('64))
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar ('77---non-unanimous ('71, '72))
6. Hakeem Olajuwon ('94---non-unanimous ('93))
7. Tim Duncan ('03---non-unanimous ('02))
8. Kevin Garnett ('04---unanimous)
9. Bill Russell ('65---non-unanimous ('62, '64))
10. Magic Johnson ('87---unanimous)
11. Larry Bird ('86---non-unanimous ('87, '88))
12. David Robinson ('95---non-unanimous ('94, '96))
13. Bill Walton ('77---unanimous)
14. Julius Erving ('76---unanimous)
15. Oscar Robertson ('64---non-unanimous ('63))
16. Dwyane Wade ('09---non-unanimous ('06, '10))
17. Stephen Curry ('15---unanimous)
18. Dirk Nowitzki ('11---non-unanimous ('06, '09))
19. Jerry West ('66---non-unanimous ('68, '69))
20. Kevin Durant ('14---unanimous)
21. Patrick Ewing ('90---unanimous)
22. Tracy McGrady ('03---unanimous)
23. Kobe Bryant (year to be determined)
24. ????

Start it up guys. Target stop time for this one will be late Thursday morning.
Also, we don't have the 75% consensus on Kobe's peak year. If you did NOT cast a ballot for Kobe last thread, please declare in the secondary thread which year you think is his best and why.

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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#2 » by drza » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:35 am

There've been votes but not as much discussion of late. Like many on here, I've been traveling and hustling for work and just unable to dig in the way I'd like. But at the least, here's a mined post on Moses from PTB Fan to hopefully spark a bit of discussion.

PTB Fan wrote:Vote: '83 Moses Malone

I have school and other stuff going on, so I'll update this post some other time.


"The Houston Rockets of the National Basketball Association Wednesday traded center Moses Malone to Philadelphia for seven-foot forward Caldwell Jones and a first round choice in the 1983 draft. The 76ers recently offered Malone a 13.2 million, six year contract to forego his free agent status.

The Rockets were then forced Philadelphia's offer or lose Malone, the NBA's Most Valuable Player in 1982. So, they traded him, thus acquiring a draft choice they hope to use to get either Ralph Simpson of Virginia or Pat Ewing of Georgetown.

The Cavaliers finished last among all NBA teams in 1982, and Houston general manager Ray Patterson says the "laws of averages suggests Cleveland will not finish very high." Malone is 28, Jones 32."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=V69dAAAAIBAJ&sjid=jl0NAAAAIBAJ&pg=4683,2228079&dq=moses+malone&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Moses Malone, no longer burdened with being the biggest scorer on the team, had 21 points and 17 rebounds and Andrew Toney bomb the nets for 33 points Friday night as Philadelphia '76ers beat New York Knicks 104-89 in the National Basketball Association season opener for both games.

"I don't have to score 30 or 36 points a game" said Malone, who was acquired in a trade with Houston Rockets and signed a six year, $13 million contract with the '76ers. "I can go to the boards, unlike Houston where I had two and three guys on me all the time."

Malone, who averaged more than 30 points as the most valuable player in the NBA last season, actually was the third leading scorer for Philadelphia. Julius Erving scored 22 points as the 76ers ruined the debut of new Knicks coach Hubie Brown.

"Other teams will have to be more worried about us, rather than us worried about them." Malone said."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ApJVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9j8NAAAAIBAJ&pg=1172,4010309&dq=moses+malone&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



"Moses Malone scored 25 points and had 15 rebounds and Julius Erving had 22 points last night as the Philadelphia 76ers, breaking the game open with 25-8 surge in the second quarter, beat the Indiana Pacers 121-106 in a National Basketball Association game.

The Pacers led by eight points early in the game and were still in front by seven, 37-30, before Franklin Edwards started a string of 10 straight points by Philadelphia. Indiana managed to tie the game for the final time at 41-41 with five minutes to go before half time but Erving put Philadelphia ahead to stay.

The 76ers outscored the Pacers 14-4 in the next four minutes for a 55-45 lead. Philadelphia led 57-49 at the intermission, and the Pacers came no closer than seven points in the third quarter. The 76ers streched the lead to 14 points going in the final quarter, 86-72, and Indiana came no closer than 10 points the rest of the game."



http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Kv8sAAAAIBAJ&sjid=S80FAAAAIBAJ&pg=5793,3746712&dq=moses+malone&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;






Moses Frees Erving "To Roam The Court"

"Moses Malone leads the Philadelphia 76ers in scoring and rebounding, but his biggest contribution to the team might be the freedom he gives Julius Erving to roam.

Erving was especially appreciative of the 6-foot-10 center's presence in Philadelphia's 116-108 victory over the Suns last night in Phoenix. The 76ers' small forward scored 34 points, complementing the outside play of guard Andrew Toney and the inside work of Malone.

Toney, who hit 15-of-17 free throws, led all scorers with 34 points and Malone added 19 points and 17 rebounds.

"Even though I'm technically a small forward, you know 6-foot-6, 206 pounds, I basically play in the low post and over the last four or five years, I've earned a living in the post" Erving said. "He (Malone) has sort of given me freedom to roam the court more and not to make requirement to be under the basket all night in order for the team to play up to its potential."

Phoenix coach John MacLeod felt his team played below its potential, especially while committing seven turnovers in the last six minutes. The Suns turnovers helped Philadelphia scored five straight points for a comfortable 107-100 lead.

Larry Nance led the Suns with 21 (?) points followed by Maurice Lucas with 22 points and 12 rebounds
."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=xiArAAAAIBAJ&sjid=HpYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5545,1395842&dq=moses+malone&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Moses Malone scored a season high 33 points and grabbed 18 rebounds as the Philadelphia 76ers overwhelmed the Boston Celtics 122-105 Tuesday night.

The Celtics were behind by 21 points with 7:33 left, but a rally led by Kevin McHale, Gerald Henderson and Danny Ainge, who scored eight points in four minutes, cut the Sixers lead to 110-100 with 3:32 remaining.

The 76ers stopped Boston's rally on a field goal by Malone with 3:07 left and on a jumper from the left side by Maurice Cheeks with 2:40 to play."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=0EIsAAAAIBAJ&sjid=5s4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=3752,6359330&dq=moses+malone&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



"Moses Malone and Julius Erving combined for 61 points as the Philadelphia 76ers blew out the Seattle Supersonics 130-117 last night and extended the National Basketball Association's longest winning streak of the season to 14 games.

The 6-foot-10 Malone scored 34 points and Erving 27, although neither played much of the final period. Malone bettered his season high of 33 points by one point. Andrew Toney added 19 for the Sixers."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1gEtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=oc4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=3295,792989&dq=moses+malone&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


This One May Be For the Books

With Julius Erving and Moses Malone starring, the 76ers are writing a new kind of Philadelphia story

"Julius Winfield Erving II stepped out into the sunlight from his car, removed his wire-rim glasses and squinted for a moment, letting his eyes—he has recently become slightly nearsighted—adjust to the glare. Looking down, he took the hand of Julius Winfield Erving III, and they headed toward the loading docks, where meat and produce were being carried onto dozens of heavy trucks that were standing shoulder to shoulder. Dr. J, a few days away from his 33rd birthday, and 8-year-old J had nearly reached the door of Norm and Lou's Restaurant when a big rig rumbled by and bleated noisily at them with its air horn. As the truck slowly rolled off toward Pattison Ave. in South Philadelphia, the driver hit his horn again and leaned out the window. "This is your year, Doc," he yelled, nearly squashing a Toyota as he did so. "Don't disappoint us again. This year the Sixers go all the way." He didn't say, "...or else," but he might as well have.

The playoff woes that have befallen the 76ers in recent years are a frequent topic of sour discussion in Philadelphia, and as Erving sipped a cherry Coke in the diner he asked, "Why is it that with us people always dwell on the past? That's where the interest genuinely is with our team, in talking about our past [failures] instead of what we've accomplished. We've taken so much crap that's unwarranted."

It's nevertheless true that three times in the past six years—1977, 1980 and 1982—Philadelphia has made it to the NBA's championship series only to be beaten in six games each time. The Sixers' regular-season record since 1977-78 has been the best in the league (327-136), and yet year after year the big prize has eluded them. "Somewhere along the line something always broke down," says Los Angeles Coach Pat Riley, whose Lakers handed the Sixers their most recent disappointment in the championship finals.

By last week, however, the question wasn't whether the 76ers were past tense but whether they would be future perfect. By defeating Denver by 21 points, Houston by 29 and New York by 15—in the process holding the Nuggets and Knicks each to just 38 points in the first half—Philadelphia ran its record through Sunday to 46-7, far and away the best in the league this season, and one that puts them on a collision course with history. No NBA team has ever won 70 games during the regular season, and the 76ers have an excellent shot at doing just that. The best regular-season record was achieved by the 1971-72 Lakers (who were also 46-7 after 53 games). They won 33 in a row and finished 69-13, surpassing the previous best record, 68-13, of the 1966-67 Sixers. Both teams went on to win championships.

Although these 76ers would have to play at a seemingly torrid .828 pace in their remaining 29 games to finish with 70 victories, that would actually represent a slight decline from Philly's present .868 clip. In the unlikely event that the Sixers collapse and become just another .500 team for the rest of the season, they would still finish with 60 wins, two more than they had last year. Moreover, the Sixers have an almost unheard-of 22-5 road record, including an astounding 11-1 against Western Conference teams. They've beaten the champion Lakers twice and have yet to lose two straight games; no team has ever gone through an entire season without losing two in a row. And the Celtics, in other years the 76ers' chief tormentors in the Atlantic Division, lay seven games back, a diminishing speck in Philadelphia's wake.

Surely the 76ers would not be so dominant this season had they not beaten Boston for the Eastern Conference championship in '82, after blowing a 3-1 lead in that series. Philly lost Game 5 at Boston and was embarrassed in the second half of Game 6 at home, where they were roundly booed. "I think the seventh game in Boston [which the 76ers won 120-106] helped us," reserve Guard Clint Richardson says in colossal understatement. "After the sixth, practically everybody had given up on us, and we had nowhere to go but to each other. It was a bad feeling and it hurt us, but it made the guys who were involved in that situation a lot closer."

In the championship series against Los Angeles, it was readily evident that although brotherhood is a virtue, a big man who can rebound is even better. Sixers owner Harold Katz decided to go after Houston's league MVP center, Moses Malone, who was a free agent, and when he got Malone for the tidy sum of $13.2 million for six years, the 76ers had the dominating center they'd lacked since Wilt Chamberlain was traded in 1968.

Malone, who led the league in rebounding last year (14.7 a game) and was second in scoring (31.1 points a game), quickly proved that he could also make the quick outlet pass necessary to trigger the Sixers' running game, get out and run on the break himself and close down the middle defensively with an occasional blocked shot. And, oh, how he can go to the boards. Last season Philadelphia's so-called Twin Towers combination of Darryl Dawkins and Caldwell Jones had a total of 232 offensive rebounds. This year Malone got his 232nd in Philadelphia's 40th game, on Jan. 23 in Milwaukee, and he leads the league in rebounding for the third consecutive season, with an average at week's end of 15.7 per game. "I've said all along that the big thing about him is his consistency," says Philly Coach Billy Cunningham. "He doesn't have any off nights." True enough. Malone has been limited to fewer than 10 rebounds only once this year; he had six in 28 minutes in the Sixers' 120-102 victory over Cleveland on Nov. 26.

"When you lose in the finals," Riley says, "it takes a tremendous toll. You lose a little bit of your basketball life. They had a lot of guys who had tasted nothing but the pain, and that's bad. Getting Moses was the best move they could have made. It rejuvenated them. They went out and said, 'With Moses, we're going to win it this year.' You can look at them and see they're more committed."

"When we got Moses our minds changed right away," says Guard Maurice Cheeks, who is having the finest season of an exemplary career as a playmaker, despite the fact that his assist average has dropped from 8.4 last season to 7.4 through Sunday. "Having him here was an important thing for us psychologically, just as important as what he brings us on the floor. Every time we walk on the court now, we think we're going to win."


As a practical matter, Malone's presence has enabled the Sixers to transform what had been a good running game into an exceptional one. "With Moses we anticipate we're going to get every rebound," Cheeks says. "So we start the break higher. And when we get a step on most teams, we're gone."

The instigator of all this, Malone, who came out of Petersburg (Va.) High in 1974 right into the ABA, has proved that if anyone is worth $2.2 million a year, it's he. He has averaged 37.5 minutes of playing time a game—he went 56 minutes in a double-overtime victory over Boston on Nov. 6—has massaged the boards and has been a timely scorer. When Cunningham has called on him to do so, Malone has also played power forward, giving new definition to that term while lending the Sixers a little versatility underneath. "It's never easy for Moses," says Moses. "Moses got to get out there every night and work hard."

Malone isn't interested in winning 70 games and then getting smoked in the playoffs. "All we got to do now is play ball and not let up," he says. "Can't take no prisoners. If we win the whole thing, that's a great team. I don't care nothing about breaking no records. Huh!"

One of Malone's greatest admirers is Irv Kosloff, who owned the team from the time of its transfer from Syracuse, in 1963, until 1976 and remains close to the 76er scene. "Moses reminds me a lot of Wilt when we won the title in 1967," Kosloff says. "Wilt hadn't won a title, and he worked hard for it. Moses hasn't won one either, and he works so hard that he makes the other players feel guilty if they don't put out as much effort."

Not everyone was convinced that acquiring Malone was such a bright idea. "I think some of the players questioned some of what we did in the off-season," Cunningham says. "But by December we had developed a clear personality and our confidence started growing. I think beating some of the better teams helped convince them." Erving, for one, had adopted a "wait and see" attitude when veterans like Dawkins, Caldwell Jones, Lionel Hollins, Mike Bantom and Steve Mix (the Doc's road roommate) were either traded or not signed to make Malone's enormous contract feasible. The Sixers started the season with four less costly rookies, more than any other team in the league carried, and gambled that the lack of depth on the bench wouldn't hurt. It hasn't. Cunningham even went so far as to put 26-year-old rookie Marc Iavaroni at the starting power forward position, despite the fact that Iavaroni had been bounced from three pro camps after his graduation from Virginia in 1978. He had spent the past four seasons playing in Italy and serving as Virginia's graduate assistant coach, which earned him playing time against Ralph Sampson in scrimmages. When Cunningham gave Iavaroni a chance, he made the most of it, diligently screening the opposition's rebounding forward off the boards so Malone could work in comparative peace.

Iavaroni did have some adjustments to make, most of them mental. On a trip to Atlanta, for instance, Cunningham told the players that the day-of-the-game shootaround would be 10 to 11. Iavaroni showed up at 10 minutes till 11 o'clock.

Besides the youth movement, another concession to Malone's contract is that the 76ers now get around out of town in rental cars, where once they traveled on more costly buses. Iavaroni was charged with the care of Erving's bags one night in San Diego, and when the Doctor was detained by reporters after the game, he instructed Iavaroni to "leave my luggage with the bellman." But instead of driving directly to Los Angeles, which was the Sixers' next stop, Iavaroni drove his car back to the San Diego hotel the team had already checked out of and gave Erving's luggage to the bellman there. The bags were eventually sent to L.A.

Obviously, the Sixers could not depend on Iavaroni to carry all the heavy load at forward, so last week they moved a step closer to the championship by filling one roster vacancy with veteran Forward Reggie Johnson, a 6'9", 205-pounder whom they purchased from Kansas City for a reported $150,000, and by trading rookie Forward Russ Schoene (and a No. 1 draft pick this year and a No. 2 in '84) to Indiana for backup Center Clemon Johnson (and a No. 3 pick in 1984). "I was ecstatic with the first part of the season," Cunningham said following the deals, "but we wanted to make ourselves stronger." Katz was overjoyed to get the two players, although both could be free agents at the end of the season. "I know Billy doesn't like to hear this kind of talk," Katz said, "but I believe this is the best team we've ever had in Philly, maybe the best team ever."

Katz has another reason to be pleased. The Sixers are doing boffo business. Though they have been an artistic success since Erving's arrival in 1976, they've been a financial failure. Attendance in 1980-81 had fallen to 11,448 a game, and though it increased to 12,362 last season, the 76ers still lost money. So the team raised ticket prices—a hefty 45% on the average. Although one can still get a seat for $6 (up from $5), the top ticket went from $11 to $16 and, taking a cue from the Lakers, the Sixers moved press row from the sidelines to behind one basket and installed a VIP row at $50 a seat. Nonetheless, as a result of the Sixers' superlative record, attendance has soared 25%, to a league-leading average of 15,229 a game. What's more, ticket revenue has zoomed by 72%.

But success has added a new problem. "We're expected to win every night," Assistant General Manager John Nash says. "Some people say there are only a couple of teams that can provide us with competition, so why come out? But that's a marketing problem."

If the Sixers prove to be the best team ever, they will have earned it. "The aggressiveness we have is consistent every night," says substitute Forward Bobby Jones. "I've never seen a team that had it like this team does. Every night our opponents know what they're going to face for 48 minutes, and we don't let up."

"I think they're a great team, but I think they've been great," said Doug Moe, coach of the Nuggets, after their 116-95 trouncing by Philly last week. "I don't believe that because they haven't won a championship they're failures. I happen to think the regular season is more meaningful than the playoffs. Hell, anybody can get up for the playoffs, but the regular season is a grind. If they win 70, yeah, they're a great team."

Philadelphia probably would have been a better team this season even without the addition of Malone, if for no other reason than the emergence of third-year pro Andrew Toney, formerly just a spectacular shooter, as a complete player. Toney was a substitute most of his first two seasons in Philadelphia; he became a regular in the playoffs last spring when Hollins was injured and he's still starting. Through Sunday he was scoring 19.6 points a game, third on the team behind Malone (24.2) and Erving (22.6), while playing sound defense. He also has learned to hit the open man even when he has a shot he thinks he can make, which is virtually all the time. "He sees things out on the court that other players just don't see," says Erving, who has become something of a mentor to Toney. "Andrew has such strong wrists that he can throw the pass off the dribble, sideways, behind his head, any way. He came into the league with the shot, but Billy stayed on him and saw to it that Andrew was not a one-dimensional player."

Erving awaits the stretch run with keen interest. "I think we've proved we're a good team, potentially a great one," Erving says. "We're probably hungrier than the Lakers or the Celtics, and that helps. The last time I experienced a championship was in 1976 [with the ABA Nets], and seven seasons is a long drought. Moses hasn't won one ever. Bobby hasn't. Maurice. Andrew. We haven't had the ultimate success, and we've got guys this year who really want it.

"The pain that was suffered, the feeling of having backs turned on us, that's still with this team. But the positive side is carried with us, too. We have the scars, but we also have the glue. I don't feel incomplete or inadequate in any way because I haven't won an NBA championship. I don't lie awake nights and think about it. I know I've given my best to the public, and the rest is really out of my hands. I can accept that."

This year the Doc may not have to accept anything but a championship trophy. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy."


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1120555/3/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;





"Moses Malone dropped in two free throws with 5 seconds left in overtime to lead the Philadelphia 76ers to a 104-101 National Basketball Association victory over the Milwaukee Bucks.

Milwaukee's Marques Johnson had tied the score at 93 on a 13-foot jump shot with 2:34 left in the fourth quarter, and neither team could muster another point in regulation. The win kept the 76ers atop the NBA's Atlantic Division with a 58-10 record. Philadelphia has now won eight of the last nine games, and 24 in a row at home, one short of a club record.

Milwaukee, in first place in the Central Division with a 45-25 record, saw a two game winning snapped.

Malone, who finished with a game high 25 points on his 28th birthday, was fouled intentionally by Bob Lanier before making the winning free throws. Milwaukee then inbounded the ball to Charlie Criss, who attempted a three point field goal but hit the backboard.

Field goals by Reggie Jackson and Maurice Cheeks gave Philadelphia a 102-97 lead with 58 seconds left in the overtime. Marques Johnson, who led the Bucks with 24 points, hit a three pointer to bring the Bucks within 102-100.

Andrew Toney added 21 and Cheeks 16 for the 76ers. The score was tied 18 times in regulation, including a 21-21 deadlock at the end of the first period. Philadelphia led 44-43 at the half and 74-71 after three quarters."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=te0vAAAAIBAJ&sjid=nu4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6837,4559124&dq=moses+malone&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



"Moses Malone scored 26 points, including eight in the fourth quarter, as the Philadelphia 76ers held off Cleveland rally to beat the Cavaliers 96-84 in a National Basketball Association game Sunday night.

The victory kept alive the 76ers' chance to tie the NBA record for most victories in a season, 69, set in a 1971-72 season by the Lakers. To match the record, Philadelphia, 61-13, must win its remaining eight games.

The 76ers led 71-61 entering the final period. The Cavaliers, however, got eight points from Cliff Robinson to pull within six points three times in the quarter.

Cleveland twice blew chances to pull within four points -- once when Robinson missed a dunk with eight minutes left and again four minutes later when Bruce Flowers missed a jumper.

Philadelphia then scored the next six points, including four by Franklin Edwards, to clinch the victory. The 76ers', who led 51-39 at halftime, got 14 points from Maurice Cheeks. Bobby Jones added 13.

Fourteen of Malone's points came from the free throw line. Robinson scored 20 points for the Cavaliers, who have lost last 16 games with Philadelphia. Geoff Huston had 18 and Phil Hubbard added 16."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=BKpOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=h_sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3061,1460196&dq=moses+malone&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Moses Malone, who spent the past two weeks aching knees, returned to the line up Sunday and scored 38 points to lift the Philadelphia 76ers to a 112-102 victory over the New York Knicks in the opener of the their NBA Eastern Conference semifinal series.

The second game of the best of seven series will be played Wednesday night in Philadelphia.

Malone missed the final week of the regular season with tendinitis of the right knee and had to walk off practice floor last Thursday when his knee became inflamed. But he did not look hurt to the Knicks, shooting 15-21 from the field and pulling down 17 rebounds.

Malone scored 14 points in the second quarter to spark the 76ers to a 61-55 lead at halftime. Then, with Philadelphia clinging into a two point lead early in the third quarter, Malone scored two baskets in a row of 13 points that gave the Sixers a 79-64 lead with 5:25 left in the period and New York never got closer than nine in the final minute.
"


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Ef5cAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8lkNAAAAIBAJ&pg=3751,3192677&dq=moses+malone+vs+knicks&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;




"In between, Moses Malone played 38 minutes of brilliant, hard basketball, more than any of his co-workers. He scored 38 points, matching his high for the season. He muscled 17 rebounds, had four assists, shot 15-23 from the field, 8-9 from the foul line and helped the 76ers to blow out the Knicks, 112-102 in the first game of their playoff showdown."


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Mx9UAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1owDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3699,7526956&dq=moses+malone+vs+knicks&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#3 » by TheRobin » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:09 am

Its a damn shame Kobe made it over CP3 in a peak play thread. CP3 from 2007-2009 is better than any Kobe regular season.
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#4 » by bastillon » Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:18 pm

TheRobin wrote:Its a damn shame Kobe made it over CP3 in a peak play thread. CP3 from 2007-2009 is better than any Kobe regular season.


Debatable. CP certainly has better numbers +/- and efficiency stats like PER/WS/WP. Kobe on the other hand has high ceiling of his impact, something that Paul failed to prove during his career. Paul has never anchored a team as good as Lakers 08 after Gasol's trade, nor did he anchor an offense as good as those Lakers. Stats are with CP mostly, Kobe has track record of great team results going for him.

Now, what is not debatable at all, is that Kobe far outplayed CP in the postseason. It's not even close. So it depends on what you like. For instance I value postseason a lot more, because RS does not win you titles. As far as CP's postseason career, he has a long a consistent track record of being injured in the playoffs. That happened pretty much every year of his career excluding 08 and 11 playoffs. In 08 I think Kobe was much better in the postseason, particularly against their common opponent (Spurs), when Kobe won the series 4-1 almost by himself. Gasol was scoring like 13 pts per game or something like that. CP did not show up on the road in that series.

So it would be a damn shame if you favored RS performance over PS performance. You don't win titles during RS.
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#5 » by Clyde Frazier » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:12 pm

Wish I had more time to put into barkley discussion... he's come close, but been passed over for at least a few threads now. I get the questions about his defense, although I've pointed out how I think they're overstated. It's just hard to overlook his sheer dominance offensively and on the boards. He'll still be my first ballot, with paul possibly second, but I feel like 2nd and 3rd are still pretty open. Will try to come back with my final ballots tonight.
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#6 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:46 pm

1st ballot - Moses Malone 1983
2nd ballot - Charles Barkley 1990
3rd ballot - undecided between 1975 Bob McAdoo and Karl Malone (undecided year)


After thinking a bit, Malone advantage on defense over McAdoo is bigger than Bob offensive gap. Karl is one of the best man defenders EVER. McAdoo was average at best. The only problem with Malone is his bad playoff level of play. McAdoo had amazing run, just look at how he killed Bullets (best defense in the league that year). Does Karl even have comparable serie in his career? That's very tough pick for me.

One thing is strange for me - why Curry is so much higher than any other PGs not named Magic or Oscar? I don't think he is even better than peak Nash or CP3. Even Frazier has a case over him. I think it's big inconsistency in our criteria, isn't it?
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#7 » by trex_8063 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:25 am

Clyde Frazier wrote:Wish I had more time to put into barkley discussion... he's come close, but been passed over for at least a few threads now. I get the questions about his defense, although I've pointed out how I think they're overstated.


I agree. As I go with '90 as his peak, I'm going to quote Dipper from this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1343246

Dipper 13 wrote:
colts18 wrote:The 4th column is the +/- per 48 minutes. The next column is Per 100 possessions where I did the conversion. The 94 Spurs played at a 90.1 pace (possessions per 48 minutes). So I multiplied the Per 48 min * 100 / (team pace ). 8.5 * 100 / 90.1 = +9.4 per 100 possessions.



Below is a screenshot provided by fpliii of the 1989-90 Sixers Plus/Minus.

http://i.imgur.com/fmqox74.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Barkley looks good on offense, but the defense brings him down a bit. However it is not as bad as some might expect. He is basically neutral on defense this year, compared to some of the late 90's RAPM results.

+8.9 Net ORtg

+7.3 On Court ORtg (Compared to league average)


Net Overall: http://i.imgur.com/N3cbaAq.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Offense: http://i.imgur.com/HBm7o4W.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Defense: http://i.imgur.com/qfO0ijL.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Yeah it's just raw +/-, but it's still not all that startling. iirc, '91 looks similar, and I think he's actually a slight positive defensively in '89 based on raw +/-. From '97 on (when RAPM actually becomes available), he never looks quite as bad (via impact data) as his reputation would suggest.

My eye-test of prime/peak Barkley defensively indicates a sporadic mix of good and bad: we might see one brilliant defensive play followed up by a famously lackadaisical play. Clearly it's not for lack of ability, but more lack of attention and/or effort at times. To some degree this was intentional or by design, as he was conserving himself for the offensive end. My impression was that his insane athleticism (enabling the occasional magnificent help-defensive play or playing a passing lane) saved him from being in the absolute dregs defensively, which is where many suggest he was. But personally, I don't feel he was ever as bad defensively as PF's such as Amar'e Stoudemire, Carlos Boozer, or circa '10-12' David Lee.
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#8 » by ceiling raiser » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:32 am

trex_8063 wrote:
Clyde Frazier wrote:Wish I had more time to put into barkley discussion... he's come close, but been passed over for at least a few threads now. I get the questions about his defense, although I've pointed out how I think they're overstated.


I agree. As I go with '90 as his peak, I'm going to quote Dipper from this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1343246

Dipper 13 wrote:
colts18 wrote:The 4th column is the +/- per 48 minutes. The next column is Per 100 possessions where I did the conversion. The 94 Spurs played at a 90.1 pace (possessions per 48 minutes). So I multiplied the Per 48 min * 100 / (team pace ). 8.5 * 100 / 90.1 = +9.4 per 100 possessions.



Below is a screenshot provided by fpliii of the 1989-90 Sixers Plus/Minus.

http://i.imgur.com/fmqox74.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Barkley looks good on offense, but the defense brings him down a bit. However it is not as bad as some might expect. He is basically neutral on defense this year, compared to some of the late 90's RAPM results.

+8.9 Net ORtg

+7.3 On Court ORtg (Compared to league average)


Net Overall: http://i.imgur.com/N3cbaAq.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Offense: http://i.imgur.com/HBm7o4W.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Defense: http://i.imgur.com/qfO0ijL.png" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Yeah it's just raw +/-, but it's still not all that startling. iirc, '91 looks similar, and I think he's actually a slight positive defensively in '89 based on raw +/-. From '97 on (when RAPM actually becomes available), he never looks quite as bad (via impact data) as his reputation would suggest.

My eye-test of prime/peak Barkley defensively indicates a sporadic mix of good and bad: we might see one brilliant defensive play followed up by a famously lackadaisical play. Clearly it's not for lack of ability, but more lack of attention and/or effort at times. To some degree this was intentional or by design, as he was conserving himself for the offensive end. My impression was that his insane athleticism (enabling the occasional magnificent help-defensive play or playing a passing lane) saved him from being in the absolute dregs defensively, which is where many suggest he was. But personally, I don't feel he was ever as bad defensively as PF's such as Amar'e Stoudemire, Carlos Boozer, or circa '10-12' David Lee.

I'm not sure about post-Philly Chuck, but in 89 and 90, he seems to be in the neutral territory defensively (slight positive or slight negative), and I think those are his best net on/off years. For what you're getting from him offensively, that's huge.

We don't have any +/- data on 93 (the one year we're missing, as it turns out), let alone off/def splits, but the shot charts Dipper provided from that year make him look ridiculous:

viewtopic.php?t=1244886

If he is neutral at his peak (90 or 93, or whenever), coupled with GOAT big man offense, I feel like he'd be a guy in the teens for me.
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#9 » by RSCD3_ » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:33 am

Thinking of voting for paul but 91 Barkely has an impressive volume edge. Need convincing by Paul Crowd to put my doubts away
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#10 » by trex_8063 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:51 am

thizznation wrote:I want to start voting for Barkley but his very poor defense is holding me back.

How do you guys feel about this statement? "If your PF sucks at defense, it is extremely hard to win a Championship."

I'm trying to think of Championship teams that have played a PF at huge minutes that was as poor of a defender as Charles Barkley and I can't really think of one.


Following up my above post (#7) by pulling this quote from the last thread. I'd already responded directly the question implied in the final sentence by noting every Celtic championship team from '57-'65 (Heinsohn---not a good defender---playing large minutes on all of them); not sure Bailey Howell was much better defensively in '68 and '69 either, for that matter (though probably at least a little better). A couple others were mentioned.

I'd also just point out that although the '93 Suns didn't win a title, I think it's worth acknowledging that that was definitely a team that was capable of winning a title (i.e. so it is possible to win a title with a PF who "sucks"---thizznation's description, not mine---at defense). For instance, I think there were several finals participants of the 1990's that the '93 Suns would usually beat in a 7-game series......the '93 Bulls just weren't one of them.

I don't necessarily think a peak Barkley needed a team as loaded as the '93 Suns to create a potential contender (or at least a "competitive finals participant") with, either.

Take the '01 Sixers, for example. Suppose for example we swap out Allen Iverson and replace him with peak Charles Barkley as the defensively mediocre offensive engine for that team. And just to strike a bit more roster balance (since we're swapping out a PG/SG and replacing him with a PF), we swap out Tyrone Hill and replace him with a very different player type, but similar in overall quality: '01 version of Brent Barry.
So we'd be looking at a starting line-up of:
PG - Eric Snow
SG - Brent Barry
SF - George Lynch
PF - Charles Barkley
C - Theo Ratliff/late-prime Dikembe Mutombo (once he came on board near the AS break)

Bench: Aaron McKie, Kevin Ollie, Matt Geiger, Todd MacCulloch, Jumaine Jones, Theo Ratliff (coming off the bench once Dikembe arrived), half-season (1st half) of post-prime Toni Kukoc.

This is not at all a stacked supporting cast for Barkley, and yet I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that (with swapping out Iverson/Hill for Barkley/Barry) that their DRtg would have fall any further than from -4.1 (5th of 29) down to approximately -3.5 or -3.2 (6th or 7th of 29). Meanwhile, I suspect their ORtg jumps from +0.6 (13th of 29) to around +2.5 or so (~9th-11th of 29). SRS going from +3.63 (7th of 29) up to maybe around +5.0 (3rd or 4th of 29), while winning perhaps 58-60+ games in that weak Eastern Conference (and thus having HCA throughout the playoffs). Not saying this team could knock off the '01 Lakers in 7 games, even with HCA......but it would be more interesting. And fwiw, +5 or better SRS is a rough bench-mark in my mind for a potential legitimate contender in most years.
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#11 » by trex_8063 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:54 am

RSCD3_ wrote:Thinking of voting for paul but 91 Barkely has an impressive volume edge. Need convincing by Paul Crowd to put my doubts away


lol, I'm not sure I can provide it, even though Paul's been receiving my #1 ballot recently. I like Paul a lot as he's a legitimately elite-level player on BOTH sides of the ball (at least for the year I'm going with) at his position. Not many guys left on the table that we can say that about, honestly.
Beyond that, in defending Barkley and his defense, I've half-convinced myself to push Barkley (who was my #2 ballot anyway) up to #1.
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#12 » by LA Bird » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:37 am

Looking at my original list...

Spoiler:
LA Bird wrote:1. 2011 Dirk
The only player left since the last time I voted like five rounds ago. GOAT mid-range shooter, ridiculous post up efficiency while providing spacing even when he doesn't have the ball. Rebounding numbers are a bit low from a big but it actually doesn't look too bad in the FFAPM data.

2. 2014 Durant
Interesting defensive numbers posted in the previous thread but I don't quite believe he is that elite of a defender. One of the GOAT scoring regular seasons but took a slight dip in the playoffs. Good all around numbers (5.5 assists!) which I think sometimes get overlooked because he is such a great scorer.

3. 2007 Nash
I tried to raise some discussions on him a few rounds ago to no avail so I am just going to go ahead and cast the first vote for Nash. GOAT offensive player on par with Magic but with worse defense which is why he is a few spots behind. Ridiculous shooting and playmaking and while the efficiency dropped in the playoffs like Durant, it's still a fairly efficient 58% TS. Defensively, Nash lacks the lateral quickness to be a good man defender but he puts in the effort to draw charges (top 10 in 2007, ahead of Battier). Nash is still a below average defender overall but his offense is just too good to rank him any lower.

Next: ? West, 93 Barkley, 15 Paul, 09 Kobe, 90 Ewing

my top 3 candidates now are 07 Nash, 93 Barkley and 15 Paul. I will post the explanations later when I get the time.
Can't believe Nash got 0 votes in the last round...

Edit: Added reasonings for votes

1. 2007 Nash
07 Nash had arguably the best offensive season ever and with the impact of the remaining candidates (Moses, Barkley, Malone, Paul) mostly coming from the offensive end, I don't understand how nash is not getting any support yet. Elite shooting from all areas of the floor and upped his volume in clutch time while maintaining GOAT-level efficiency (35.8 pts/100 on 65.7% TS). For comparison, Moses at his scoring peak in 82 was at 36.6 pts/100 on 57.6% TS. In addition to his underrated scoring, Nash is also one of the best playmakers, elevating the Suns offense to GOAT levels throughout his prime. A below average defender whose defensive shortcomings IMO are greatly exaggerated (same for Barkley in certain years). Some people talk of them as a huge defensive liability when both are probably just slight negatives.

2. 1993 Barkley
Most of the points supporting Barkley have already been posted elsewhere in this thread.
I don't really see any difference between 90 and 93 Barkley but I chose the later version because he had some insane playoffs performances that year.

3. 2015 Paul
Better offensively and defensively than 2008 Paul. As good a playmaker as he was in his earlier days but more than makes up for his loss in athleticism with improved shooting (particularly mid-range). I might move him up for next round if he is still available since I actually haven't looked too deeply into his past season.
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#13 » by trex_8063 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:46 am

1st ballot: Charles Barkley '90
Been thinking about it, and the biggest thing holding me back about Barkley is question marks regarding his defense. But there are several indicators to suggest that he may have been more or less a neutral defender in the year I'm going with (see above post #7). And as fplii noted: if he is indeed a neutral defender, then the offensive upshot he provides (in per game impact terms) puts him in contention with basically everyone who's still on the table at this point.

And his other metrics are generally more impressive than nearly anyone left (PER 27.1, .269 WS/48, 128 ORtg/105 DRtg (+23), +9.8 BPM in 39.1 mpg), especially considering the competition at the top in '90 (bear in mind PER and WS/48 are era-standardized), which is (imo) in contention as the most talent-laden season in NBA history.

Qualitatively.....
"I tend to think of Barkley's peak as '90, as opposed to '93 (or ‘91, which I think is very close, too). '90 was more the culmination of skills and physical peak to me. No doubt his playmaking was a bit improved in '93; and Spaceman mentioned his improved proficiency from the mid-range (and greater willingness to use it) by '93, and stated this as a good thing. But tbh, I'm not sure it is a good thing for Barkley.

Because the thing is: he never really reached a point where he was a legitimately "good" mid-range shooter; fair or "not bad", but not actually good (at least not at all compared to the upshot that was present when he attacked the rim). And him taking nearly 3 attempts/game from trey at 30.5% isn't what I would call a good thing either.
Few things I note in relation to this greater willingness to shoot from mid-range or long range in ‘93: he had the lowest FG% since his rookie season, the lowest eFG% of his career to that point, the lowest FTr of his entire career (both before and after ‘93; by far lower than any year prior to ‘93), and the lowest TS% of his career to that point. Basically, many of the things that led to him being at or near the top of the league in 2Pt%, eFG%, and TS% (year-after-year) vanished in '93 as result of this greater tendency to shoot far from the basket.

Perhaps it could be argued the silver lining was that this opened the floor up a little to help the team offense or some such. Pro-'93 crowd would likely wish to point out that they were the #1 offense that year (+5.3 rORTG); however, this team was +3.9 rORTG (5th in league) the year before Barkley arrived (though he wasn’t the only roster change). But point still stands: this was a talented offensive team even without Barkley.

I'm frankly more impressed with the +5.4 rORTG (2nd in league) he anchored in '90 with a supporting cast of Hersey Hawkins, Johnny Dawkins, Mike Gminski, Rick Mahorn, Ron Anderson, and Derek Smith, than I am with a +5.3 rORTG with a supporting cast of Kevin Johnson, Dan Majerle, Tom Chambers, Cedric Ceballos, Danny Ainge, Mark West, Richard Dumas, and Oliver Miller. And his individual numbers probably marginally more impressive in '90, too.

Take for instance him shooting >63% from 2pt range in THREE separate seasons ('90 was one of them); on his kind of volume, that’s insane. Seriously, who, outside of low-volume guys like Tyson Chandler or Chris Andersen ever shoots >63% from inside the arc? Even ‘67 Wilt doesn’t quite match…...you don’t even have to adjust for pace, merely adjust for minutes: if you do a search for all seasons in NBA history of >13 FGA/36 minutes, >63% 2Pt%, and >27 mpg you come up with precisely two seasons…..and BOTH of them are Barkley (‘89 and ‘90).
Honestly, in that circa-’90 era of his career he has a case as the surest two points or two FT attempts in NBA history.

So I tend to think of that time period as his offensive peak (and offense is really what you're talking about with Charles Barkley). "




And Dipper followed it up with this:
Dipper 13 wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:Honestly, in that circa-’90 era of his career he has a case as the surest two points or two FT attempts in NBA history.



Yes indeed. In the original 100 game sample of Barkley he was shooting 81.0% at the rim on 8.2 FGA. But I did not do the Synergy chart for the last 16 games. In the original 84 game sample (includes Synergy chart and Shot Chart), he was shooting 81.0% at the rim on 7.9 FGA per game. If we subtract all transition plays, the total is 467/574 for 81.3%. Even looking at half court plays only, Barkley's effectiveness is virtually unchanged at the rim.

But getting into the synergy plays, he was actually more efficient in multiple half court plays than he was on the fastbreak, which is saying something given how terrific he was in transition (1.6 PPP, 78.7% FG).

PPP is Points Per Play.


Post Up - 1.64 PPP, 76.5% FG, 3.5 FGA

Off. Rebound - 1.65 PPP, 78.2% FG, 2.1 FGA

Cut To Basket - 2.14 PPP, 100% FG, 0.9 FGA


As can be seen above, he was completely indefensible in the post, on the offensive glass, or cutting to the basket (100% FG). While he was definitely stoppable in isolation that was primarily due to him settling for the outside shot as you mentioned or if the defense could quickly close off the front of the rim and force an off balance leaning shot. Barkley was very efficient going to the basket no matter what, though he was most comfortable in the post.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6HkjByWLFU&t=1h17m3s


How do you defend this for instance, he spins out of playoff double teams so easily like a practice drill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmjUpA3UVlA&t=3m6s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsTKc_AKSlU&t=8m5s



2nd ballot: Chris Paul '15
Went thru Paul a bit in post 15 of the #19 thread, in comparing to Nash. Basically he's someone I don't put too far behind Nash as an offensive engine, while being obviously better defensively (a clear net positive defensively by all available impact indicators, who also received All-D 1st team this year, fwiw). Am waffling a little wrt what year to call his peak ('08 is obviously phenomenal, too). Impact appears so massive in '15, though, where he logged the highest offensive on/off on record (even over '83 Moses), and the 2nd highest total on/off (behind---barely---only '09 Lebron). There's line-up noise to this, obv, even via apparently recently released RAPM, he came up 5th in league in ORAPM, 3rd in overall RAPM (behind only Lebron and barely behind the peak we voted in at #17--->'15 Curry).
And fwiw, I think '15 Paul is capable of larger volume numbers (to create larger PER, BPM, etc) if he were on a less talented squad; in a circumstance where, for instance, there was not an offensive talent as big as Blake Griffin.


3rd ballot: Moses Malone '83
Been putting Moses off for awhile, largely out of concerns that he was a "one-trick pony" (offensive rebounding). But he was so much better than nearly everyone else at that, that he was able to exert a fairly large offensive impact (second highest offensive on/off we have record of, though line-up noise caused by his weak replacement contributes to this). He dominated many of his H2H match-ups against other elite centers, and had a great foul-draw rate; was a 76.1% FT-shooter this year (pretty elite for a center).
And as noted a thread or two ago, I've perhaps been under-crediting his defense in '83: he was All-Def 1st team (for what that's worth), was indeed a good man defender, and managed 2.5 blk/100 possessions while still being elite on the defensive glass.


Next up (or potential alternates) for me: Karl Malone, Nash; James Harden, Anthony Davis, Elgin Baylor are right around the corner for me, too.
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#14 » by Narigo » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:18 am

1. 1997 Karl Malone
Going with 1997 Karl Malone over 1990 Charles Barkley and 2006 Kobe Bryant.
Karl Malone is one of the greatest off ball big man ever. Excellent roll man and hes really good at getting in position to score. Pretty good spot up shooter.

2. 1990 Charles Barkley

Unguardable in iso and post situations. Good Ball Handler, Passer and good in transition. I pick 1990 over 1993 because he was more athletic and efficient from the field. Shot 63% on 2 point shots in 1990.

Was considered to be as good as prime MJ and Magic Johnson in 1990. In fact, he had the most first place votes for MVP.

3. 1983 Moses Malone
Pretty good low post player who likes to post up on the left block. He gets alot of defensive attention in the post area which frees up his teammates. One of the best rebounders on the offensive glass. In 1983, he was an above average defender
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#15 » by Dr Positivity » Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:54 am

Ballot 1 - Chris Paul 2008

Ballot 2 - Karl Malone 1995

Ballot 3 - Charles Barkley 1990

Tough between Barkley/Moses, I prefer the player with more spacing for now

Going to throw out another name - Walt Frazier. Frazier in 72 is a 23/7/6 on .576 (compared to league average more like .60 TS% is in 2015) with elite defense and is one of those guys who people claim on the high end of his "Did more than his numbers" eye test.
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#16 » by Lost92Bricks » Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:15 am

bastillon wrote:Debatable. CP certainly has better numbers +/- and efficiency stats like PER/WS/WP. Kobe on the other hand has high ceiling of his impact, something that Paul failed to prove during his career. Paul has never anchored a team as good as Lakers 08 after Gasol's trade, nor did he anchor an offense as good as those Lakers. Stats are with CP mostly, Kobe has track record of great team results going for him.

I keep seeing people say this but it's not true.

The Clippers last season were a ridiculous offensive team. They were ranked #1 offensively (+6.8 over league average compared to the '08 Lakers who were +5.5).

And this is despite the Clippers being dreadful without CP on the court. If you just look at their on-court results:

'08 Kobe: 114.4 ORtg/+9.0 NetRtg
'15 CP3: 118.3 ORtg/+13.0 NetRtg

The Clippers were playing like a GOAT level offense with CP3 and they reached a higher level on that end than any of Kobe's teams. Only reason they didn't have historic results was because of their ridiculously large dropoff when CP3 sat on the bench (19.9 on/off differential).
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#17 » by bastillon » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:35 am

Lost92Bricks wrote:
bastillon wrote:Debatable. CP certainly has better numbers +/- and efficiency stats like PER/WS/WP. Kobe on the other hand has high ceiling of his impact, something that Paul failed to prove during his career. Paul has never anchored a team as good as Lakers 08 after Gasol's trade, nor did he anchor an offense as good as those Lakers. Stats are with CP mostly, Kobe has track record of great team results going for him.

I keep seeing people say this but it's not true.

The Clippers last season were a ridiculous offensive team. They were ranked #1 offensively (+6.8 over league average compared to the '08 Lakers who were +5.5).

And this is despite the Clippers being dreadful without CP on the court. If you just look at their on-court results:

'08 Kobe: 114.4 ORtg/+9.0 NetRtg
'15 CP3: 118.3 ORtg/+13.0 NetRtg

The Clippers were playing like a GOAT level offense with CP3 and they reached a higher level on that end than any of Kobe's teams. Only reason they didn't have historic results was because of their ridiculously large dropoff when CP3 sat on the bench (19.9 on/off differential).


Two points:
1) You should look at Lakers after Gasol's trade (RS + PS). Lakers were all-time great offense after that trade, specifically when Gasol was playing.

2) It is true that Clippers were a great offense last season but it was also because of Griffin's impact. He also had huge +/- numbers. As we know CP and Griffin shared majority of their mins so that explains a lot of the difference in +/- numbers.

But in any case, I can concede that CP is a better RS player than Kobe. Can't say the same for the playoffs. Paul's PS performances are lackluster compared to his RS standards and that was usually due to injuries. If you can't stay healthy for the PS, I'm sorry, but I'll take the guy who can.
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#18 » by bastillon » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:19 am

Dr Positivity wrote:Ballot 1 - Chris Paul 2008

Ballot 2 - Karl Malone 1995

Ballot 3 - Charles Barkley 1990

Tough between Barkley/Moses, I prefer the player with more spacing for now

Going to throw out another name - Walt Frazier. Frazier in 72 is a 23/7/6 on .576 (compared to league average more like .60 TS% is in 2015) with elite defense and is one of those guys who people claim on the high end of his "Did more than his numbers" eye test.


Why Chris Paul 08 over 11? Or one of the Clippers versions? Do you really think CP was at his peak at 22 years old? Isn't that a bit odd?

Why Karl Malone 95, not 94? Malone's PS numbers in 95 are kinda skewed by the fact that Rockets did not have a PF and were getting abused all PS long. On the other hand, Malone was excellent in 94 PS, in my mind his best PS run, considering competition (Robinson, Mutombo, Hakeem, 3 of top-5 defenders ever).

Why do you think Frazier 72 was an elite defender? Is there any data to support this?
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#19 » by bastillon » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:23 am

Narigo wrote:1. 1997 Karl Malone
Going with 1997 Karl Malone over 1990 Charles Barkley and 2006 Kobe Bryant.
Karl Malone is one of the greatest off ball big man ever. Excellent roll man and hes really good at getting in position to score. Pretty good spot up shooter.

2. 1990 Charles Barkley

Unguardable in iso and post situations. Good Ball Handler, Passer and good in transition. I pick 1990 over 1993 because he was more athletic and efficient from the field. Shot 63% on 2 point shots in 1990.

Was considered to be as good as prime MJ and Magic Johnson in 1990. In fact, he had the most first place votes for MVP.

3. 1983 Moses Malone
Pretty good low post player who likes to post up on the left block. He gets alot of defensive attention in the post area which frees up his teammates. One of the best rebounders on the offensive glass. In 1983, he was an above average defender


Why 97 Karl Malone over mid 90s?

bastillon wrote:I see that a lot of posters think that Karl Malone's peak was either 97 or 98. That is a massive error to me. Basically you are saying that Karl Malone was better because his team got into the finals. That is illogical. It makes no sense. It would mean that if your teammates get better then you get better at the same time.

Karl Malone's peak was somewhere around the age of 30. To me his peak was 94 because of excellent playoff run against 3 of the top-5 defenders ever:

Spoiler:
bastillon wrote:Strongly disagree with 97-99 as peak for Karl Malone. That to me was clearly in the mid 90s (either 94 or 95). You should look at his skillset, not the numbers without context. His stats were heavily dependent on competition, as Karl Malone had tendency to underperform vs. quality opponents.

Nevertheless, in the mid 90s Karl Malone was at the peak of his powers:
-30 years old so basically around the age most players are at their best
-much more athletic than in the late 90s, simply ran the floor a lot better, was a quicker defender, played more mins (44 mpg in the postseason, that could never happen in the late 90s)
-much more polished than in the early 90s, jumpshot was a lot better, added fadeaway to his repertoire which he didn't really use around '90
-was much more utilized as a passer as opposed to early 90s

Personally I'd take 94. This is the year where Karl Malone faced in one playoff run David Robinson, Dikembe Mutombo and Hakeem. Basically played gainst three of top 5 defensive players of all-time. This should be taken into consideration looking at his playoff stats. He posted 27/12.4/3.4/1.4/0.8 which is a very good statline, at 53% TS and 113 ORtg (low TOV ratio in the playoffs). Plus, Malone put up incredible defensive performances in those playoffs. All of the guys he guarded performed significantly worse than they did in the RS.

This is when he dominated peak D-Rob in the playoff series. Malone put up 29/12/2 at 56% TS/118 ORtg v. 20/10/3.5 at 47% TS/104 ORtg. People often talk about how Hakeem dismantled D-Rob year later, but in 94 D-Rob was completely dominated by Karl Malone. Not only did Malone hold him in check on defense (D-Rob's averages relative to RS were dramatically lower), but he also dominated offensively.

After that, he put up 27/12/3/2/1 at 53% TS and 110 ORtg vs. Mutombo. In that series Malone played 46 mpg. We're talking about a 7-game series. It shows just how much more stamina he had in that period than during late 90s. I don't really see late 90s Karl Malone putting up that kind of performances game after game vs. Mutombo-anchored defense, playing those kind of minutes, exerting energy on both ends of the court and winning the series on the back of his 31/14/6/2 game 7 performance.

After that he faced Hakeem in the WCF and lost but played pretty well and against respectable competition - Thorpe was definitely a good man defender (Malone did a lot worse vs. Hakeem for the stretches Hakeem was guarding him, but it is to be expected since Hakeem is the best man defender of all-time).

So considering Malone's skillset (more polished than early 90s, with much more stamina and athleticism than in late 90s), his performances in the playoffs, and insane competition that he faced in the playoffs, this is to me clearly the best version of Karl Malone. You could argue that his b2b playoff series vs. D-Rob and Mutombo were his best playoff series ever. The work he was doing on both ends was pretty incredible, considering who he was going up against.

General note: I think voters in this project have been focusing way too little on the context behind the numbers. I rarely see any analysis concerning competition certain players were going up against. In vacuum Tim Duncan's 2003 playoff run really stands out like almost no other. But when you consider the garbage players Duncan was playing against, it really does not. To me it is much more impressive to dominate peak David Robinson than to feast on Amare and Najera all series long. Similarly this is why Ewing and Dirk didn't get enough recognition because people don't appreciate who they were going up against.
Quotatious wrote: Bastillon is Hakeem. Combines style and substance.
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Re: Peaks Project #24 

Post#20 » by bastillon » Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:52 am

bastillon wrote:
*Karl and Barkley are right on the horizon for me. I probably tend to lean towards Karl slightly more, because I do think he gives a significant defensive presence at the big man slots which is important to me. But I was more of a Barkley fan, thought Barkley was better at the time, and he was certainly more dynamic and fun to watch, so it's close. Again the decision that I need to make is how much to put into the available impact stats we have on Barkley, which don't paint him in as dominant of a light impact-wise as his numbers would have suggested. And on Karl's side I have to decide how much the playoff drop in scoring efficiency bothers me, how much I think was a function of how his team was built, and whether he contributed in enough other ways that he could still be big despite the scoring drop.


I'll just re-post some of the stuff on Malones and Barkley:
Dr Positivity wrote:I feel pretty strongly about voting peak Ewing over peak Moses in this project (leaning towards '93 Ewing btw unless someone can convince me the '90 version was as impactful defensively). I'd prefer to build around Ewing, where you set your defense up pretty well and also get solid offense, vs Moses having more offense but a shaky defensive record. While Ewing having an uglier offensive skillset than his numbers worries me, Moses' offensive game isn't exactly pretty either, so it's hard to knock him for it. I think Moses is better offensively just... not by enough of a margin

Btw I dug up a post from last year when I looked at the DRB ranks of Moses' teams, because I was thinking heavily at the time about how big men who excel at getting offensive rebounds more than defensive ones, may be using their high skill of "tracking" the ball on the glass on the defensive end, thus chasing after rebounds instead of boxing out. Moses of course has one of the highest ORB to DRB ratios of all players in history, such as in 1982 having 47% of his rebounds on the offensive glass, 53% DRB. A guy I compared him to as on the opposite end of ORB/DRB ratio, Dirk, had 10% of his rebounds offensive in 2011, 90% defensive, and his team managed to have a lot of good defensive rebounding years. Here are Moses' team rebounding stats:

Moses
Rockets 77 - 5th
Rockets 78 - 15/22
Rockets 79 - 9/22
Rockets - 80 - 21/22
Rockets 81 - 11/23
Rockets 82 - 17/23
Sixers 83 - 13/23
Sixers 84 - 18/23
Sixers 85 - 15/23
Sixers 86 - 17/23 - This is a Barkley/Moses frontcourt year. WTF?
Bullets 87 - 22/23
Bullets 88 - 21/23
Hawks 89 - 22/25
Hawks 90 - 26/27
Hawks 91 - 7/27
Bucks 92 - 23/27

That's rough. I also looked at what happened to the team's after his moves - Rockets move from 17th in DRB in 82 to 18th in 83, Sixers move from 22nd DRB in 82 to 13th DRB in 83. So that's not a bad impact, though he was also replacing Daryl Dawkins, who has probably the worst size of human being to rebounding ratio ever. The Sixers are 17th in both 86 and 87, the Bullets are 20th in 86 and 22nd in 87. The Hawks go from 13th in 88 to 22nd in 89, the Bullets go from 21st in 88 to 12th in 89. The Hawks go from 7th in 91 to 8th in 92, the Bucks go from 21st in 91 to 23rd in 92. So the overall changing from team to team doesn't support Moses being an impact defensive rebounder.


mysticbb wrote:
MisterWestside wrote:Against Barkley, or the way he was utilized?

You see, I know that players are the ones playing the games, but we can't act as if coaching/coaching strategy/systems don't exist. They do, and they matter.


See, the issue is that you are implying the coaches would have just used Barkley wrong, while I say that the coaches used Barkley in order to achieve maximum team success. A player like Barkley, with his skillset and height, makes it really difficult to find fitting teammates to build a really, really good team. You need an incredible skilled big who can defend not only in the post, but is also capable of stepping out to compensate for Barkley's mistakes. Now what? The 76ers did not fall apart without Barkley, neither in 1987 nor in 1991. And when we look at the 1993 76ers, we see that they played -2.38 SRS ball for the first 40 games, just to collapse with internal trouble, coaching changes, etc. to -7.98 SRS for the last 42 games. Now, coaching matters, no doubt about that, but do you really think it would have been easy to just use different offensive and defensive schemes for the coaches in order to make a better team? Or isn't it the case that Barkley himself was the cause for the coaches to put him into that post position, because it would have been worse, if Barkley played a different position?

I see a similar thing with Moses Malone. Imagine Erving wouldn't have had the versatility to play differently with less touches, how would that have effected the 1983 76ers? The team had to change in order to accommodate Moses Malone. That's why we haven't seen such big impact by Moses Malone despite his massive numbers. When the clearly less productive Erving in 1983 was missing, the team lost a lot of it strength. As for 1983, I can see a couple of players replacing Moses Malone and the 76ers wouldn't lose much of their strength, while it would be tougher to replace Erving. If we would have the 1983 pbp data, I wouldn't be surprised, if we find that Erving was some sort of +6 to +7 player per 100 possessions, while Moses Malone was rather a +3 to +4 player. Obviously, it is important to have production and efficiency for a team, and Moses Malone was able to provide a lot of that production. I have him with +7.01 SPM during the playoffs, which is most certainly an impressive value. But that is hardly a value others, not selected players haven't achieved, while we actually saw a bigger impact by them.

I think in 1983 we just see a 76ers team, which is a good fit for Moses Malone, because they are unselfish with high basketball IQ, a team with Erving as their most impactful player. Moses Malone could play to his strength and was able to collect the boxscore numbers. And I agree with Doc MJ's assessement as well, we don't hear people raving about Malone's skillset, transcendent abilities, high basketball IQ, great decision making, whatsoever, people liking Moses Malone most times bring up raw ppg and rpg numbers, that is all. That he turned it over quite often even though he didn't pass often, is somewhat ignored, that Malone had limitations defensively seems to be ignored (heck, there were some people recently claiming he was a defensive anchor, which means they really had no clue how Malone even played). I don't think that Moses Malone had a great peak in the context of a 5on5 game, were his skill level and playing abilities would have allowed to build a great team with a great variety of teammates.

I see Malone and Barkley as players, who were able to produce and be efficient, which means they had for sure positive impact on the game, but even if we want to assume that their teammates for a big part were just not good enough, we have seen other players pushing similar weak casts to much more than those two players. And some of those players are still not voted in.


therealbig3 wrote:
MisterWestside wrote:
I mean, yeah, but why is this always on the player? You can be a great player and be used incorrectly in the team context or not be in the ideal team environment (as a Heat fan, I would think that LBJ didn't forget how to play basketball on the offensive end between 2010 when he "impacted" his teams and when he joined the squad). Do the words "Jim Lyham" and "offensive genius"/expert" occupy the same sentence when you type your posts?


Ok but we have multiple instances of Barkley with a strong supporting cast, and not doing THAT great with them. I mean, when a player has different, but talented, supporting casts throughout his career, and the result isn't anything super amazing (or at least, isn't any better than what we've seen from other players, like Dirk or Nash), why does he HAVE to be voted soon?

Let's look at the offenses he's been a part of throughout his career, starting in 86 (when he became a 20+ ppg player):

86: +1.4
87: +0.0
88: +0.8
89: +5.2
90: +5.4
91: +0.0
92: +0.1
93: +5.3
94: +5.4
95: +6.2
96: +2.7
97: +2.1
98: +2.7
99: +3.2

So let's analyze some of these teams. From 86-88, he's a part of very average offenses, despite playing with still very productive versions of Moses, Dr. J, Mo Cheeks, and a plethora of double-digit scorers. The offenses are pretty elite in 89 and 90 finally, but again, he has quite a few very good scorers on his team. Impressive stuff, but nothing that some of the other players haven't done to a greater degree. The offenses once again become quite mediocre in 91 and 92...he does miss 15 games in 91, and using ElGee's SIO, we see that the Sixers were -1.2 without him, and +0.0 with him.

It's during 93-95 when his team offenses once again explode to elite levels, while playing next to KJ, who was injury-prone during this time.

KJ misses 33 games in 93, and the Suns were +4.5 without him, and +8.2 with him (+3.7). Also keep in mind that they had Dan Majerle on the team as well.

Both Barkley and KJ miss a bunch of games in 94, much of the same ones. The Suns played with KJ and without Barkley in 4 games (so very small sample size). In those games, the Suns had a 113.4 ORating vs an average 107.6 DRating (+5.8)...technically better than with Barkley. Like I said, very small sample size, and that wouldn't have held up for a whole season, but those Suns were clearly more than just Barkley, and they could sustain elite offense without him...kind of like they did with a healthy KJ in 97.

In 95, the Suns played 8 games with KJ and without Barkley, and in those games, they had a 110.2 ORating vs an average DRating of 107.9 (+2.3). Again, a very talented supporting cast that could certainly play strong offense with Barkley on the bench.

Personally, Barkley to me is someone whose box score stats overrate how good he was...he played with different supporting casts that were all quite strong, and the offenses were never truly historic (at least in the regular season, haven't checked the playoffs), like we've seen with players like Dirk or Nash, who aren't as impressive by the box score.

I think at some point, when a player is playing with different talent and the results just aren't at the level that's expected, it's time to start looking at the player (Barkley has poor portability imo) and to stop assuming that the coaches or the teammates just don't allow him to play an ideal role.

To be clear, Barkley did lead some really strong offenses, but at this level of peaks, Dirk and Nash have led stronger offenses on a routine basis. Furthermore, this doesn't even get into the fact that Barkley was worse as a defensive piece than either of them.


mysticbb wrote:
thizznation wrote:I see some of Barkley's awesome offense but poor defense arguments to be similar to some of Nash's. However, this issue at the 4 is very large when compared to the defense that is needed by the pg. PG's effect on the defense has been shown to be small when compared to that of the front-court.


And that's where the issue with Barkley basically comes from. His weak defense while occupying the inside position makes it tough to find the fitting frontcourt partners for him. Essentially, you need a bigger guy who can defend, but is still skilled enough to step out of the zone and make things happen. Ilgauskas would have been a pretty good complementary player next to Barkley, but those kind of players just aren't available that often.
It is a limitation and a clear problem, which is why it shouldn't be such a big surprise to not see as big of a difference between Barkley in and Barkley out. But it seems as if that kind of reasoning is offensive to some people and thus it should be ignored specifically for Barkley.

That obviously doesn't mean that Barkley sucks, especially under the light that we expect an average player to have 0 as in/out or on/off, in order to have someone "sucking" we would need to see a huge negative value. But that seems to be not that easy to grasp for some people around here.

I think the issue in this discussion is related to the same issue in Iverson discussion, while it is not the same group of people, there are still some people giving Iverson more credit, because he is smaller than an average player (even guard). As if being small and accumulate stats is making the stats more valuable. The same thing I see with Barkley, were his build is actually used to prop him up, making it seem as if a rebound by a 6'6'' PF would be worth more than the rebound by a 6'10'' PF. It is not, and while the 6'10'' can take rebounds away from his teammates, a 6'6'' can do the same. Matter of fact is that some of Barkley's production and efficiency advantage over his replacement players was compensated by the 76ers, that puts his numbers into a context. It is essentially similar to Moses Malone or Kevin Love today, and be assured, if Kevin Love would have played on the Spurs in 2012, while Spurs then would go on to win the championship, we would see a myriad of people pushing Love 2012 for a much higher peak level than he really had. In the end, Love could be the same +3.5 player he was last season, but people would likely be convinced that Love was the most valuable player in 2012, because of ppg and rpg.


bastillon wrote:Moses, Barkley - I'd like some evidence that they had all time high impact on their teams. both were poor defenders (major flaw for bigs) and greatest offensive rebounders ever while offensive rebounding is probably the least important stat of all (the weakest correlation to scoring margin). I loved Mufasa's breakdown of Moses rebounding, how little he impacted his team's DRB%. why didn't Moses and Barkley run through the league in 1986 ? both were really in their physical primes. they were overrated, that's why. why else would they post 16/23 DRB% as a team if Moses and Barkley were such great rebounders ? IMO Dr J was just as impactful or even moreso in 1983, the same case can be made for 90s KJ (people constantly overlook how good he was in the postseason, he had several explosions in the postseason).

Malone - also overrated to some extent by his raw boxscore stats. particularly because of his scoring. his ppg numbers REALLLYYYY overstated how good he was as a scorer. he had like couple reliable moves, his jumpshot was pretty good (though inconsistent at times) and he could draw tons of FTs and pass very well. but his 1 on 1 scoring skills were lacking and this is why he regressed so often in the playoffs (that + John Stockton taking a lesser role resulting in Malone carrying too much). his consistently lower playoff scoring averages and efficiency were somewhat similar to D-Rob. he's another guy whose scoring numbers overstated his abilities and that was exposed in the playoffs. IMO Kevin McHale was a better scorer in terms of abilities than Karl Malone, D-Rob OR Moses. I don't like fundamentally flawed players.

Dirk is a guy whose scoring skills are far better than his ppg averages and that is why his offensive impact is so incredibly big. I just don't see any of the guys previously mentioned carrying so much of a load on that offensively depleted team (11 Mavs). this is also why Dirk improved in the playoffs consistently and delivered when he was asked to do more and more. Malones or D-Rob simply can't do that.

Dirk is better than several players already in and I actually think he's close to KG/Walton/Dr J ballpark.


fatal9 wrote:I actually think Moses is a solid post defender. He had the strength to keep guys away from getting good position, this really bothered KAJ at times, and in general doesn't give up anything too easy one on one.

But why was he a bad defender?

- Moses was relentless on the offensive boards, which sounds like a good thing, but at a certain point, this also kept him from getting back on defense. This is something that's pretty clear to me after watching his games.
- He was consistently the most turnover prone center in NBA history. He had 8 (!) NBA seasons where he averaged more than 3.5 TO/game (by far more than any other C). Sometimes these were turnovers which don't hurt you defensively (like offensive fouls) but a lot of times it was him forcing plays which ended up creating very easy fast break points for the opponent. He also did not handle double teams well, forced a lot of bad shots which again resulted in leak outs for the opponent. So his offensive game fundamentally hurts his teams on defense.
- He doesn't protect the basket well, his team defense can be lackadaisical (possibly tied to the enormous amount of energy he spent on the offensive boards) and he doesn't cover for his teammates like a good defensive center should. The Sixers overcame this because of how dominant the defensive combination of Dr. J, Cheeks and Toney/Jones was (those guys were on some GOAT level **** with their defensive activity on the perimeter).

With all these factors combined, I'm trying to figure out if team defense wise he's at the level of a liability or if he's just mediocre.

And count me as someone who doesn't think it's at all obvious who the best player on the '83 Sixers was, which doesn't say a lot of good about Moses considering Doc was past his prime by then. People need to really get over Moses' raw stats because you're never going to assess him as a player properly if you let yourself get enamored with them (we saw this with Wilt in the past here). He's a flawed player on both sides of the ball whose game produces better numbers than it does impact.


ElGee wrote:Here is what I responded to:

drza wrote:I'd love to bring Karl Malone into the discussion as well, as I tried to do a thread or two ago, but I'm still not in a position to do it myself and so far no one else has picked up the gauntlet except for ElGee briefly. Barkley at least generated some conversation last thread, but so far nothing on Karl Malone


bastillon wrote:Malone - also overrated to some extent by his raw boxscore stats. particularly because of his scoring. his ppg numbers REALLLYYYY overstated how good he was as a scorer. he had like couple reliable moves, his jumpshot was pretty good (though inconsistent at times) and he could draw tons of FTs and pass very well. but his 1 on 1 scoring skills were lacking and this is why he regressed so often in the playoffs (that + John Stockton taking a lesser role resulting in Malone carrying too much). his consistently lower playoff scoring averages and efficiency were somewhat similar to D-Rob. he's another guy whose scoring numbers overstated his abilities and that was exposed in the playoffs. IMO Kevin McHale was a better scorer in terms of abilities than Karl Malone, D-Rob OR Moses. I don't like fundamentally flawed players.


Bastillon says "his 1 on 1 scoring skills were lacking." Now, if you think of Malone as having the historical level stats I posted, then it seems my point reinforces bastillon's. I was assuming (falsely?) that the PS numbers were being referenced, or at least were part of the reference, since this is all I heard about re: Malone's scoring these days. (This is why I say he was actually understated.) I cited the RS numbers to give people context for the PS numbers -- I definitely should have been clearer there. Let me expound.

What I'm saying is that this is not a 25 ppg 55% TS guy taking a dip bc of this skillset down to 20/50% without any team changes. Instead, the RS numbers need to be remembered in interpreting what happened to Utah in the PS. This is a 27 ppg/58% guy changing to 27 ppg/53%...but there are also circumstantial changes to consider.

I've written about the change in role in the PS, largely IMO bc Stockton was incapable of certain things for the heart of Malone's career. The rest of the team's turnovers plummet http://www.backpicks.com/2012/02/29/was-karl-malone-actually-good-under-pressure/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (an indication they are "doing" less), for example, as Malone does more. (I'd call it unipolar, but I have a lot of respect for the Jazz offensive sets.) As a result, we see Malone in more iso situations, absolutely.

With jordan, Shaq and Hakeem as the only other better statistical PS scorers of the period (or perhaps Reggie Miller?)...

I've written about this before... http://www.backpicks.com/2012/02/07/john-stocktons-legacy-impact-and-playoff-failures/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Most players will drop no more than 1.5% in TS% more than we "expect" in the PS based on their opponent strength. Malone drops more than any other notable star since the merger, at 3.9%.

You know who else has an enormous drop? His teammate, Stockton (-3.4%). Chicken, meet egg. But if you believe that Stockton was helping Malone get better shots, only Stockton's own game limits the pressure he can put on a PS defense, then that shifts some of the role to Malone (which bastillon was saying). That we still see 27 ppg scoring and excellent offensive results (remember Malone was a fantastic passer) means it doesn't make much sense to say his scoring was "REALLLYYYY overstated."

The 94 Jazz had "second options" of Horny and Stock...but really Stock was a PG who wasn't going to take over the game scoring and he didn't have the same scoring threat we see today from guys like Paul or Nash (heck it wasn't close to the same as Penny.) Horny was a spacer/shooter, and a good one, and his arrival boosted the Jazz offense. So what you get is:

94 Malone 27 ppg 53% TS (Hornacek 15 ppg/59%, Stockton 14/52%)
95 Malone 30 ppg 55% TS (Hornacek 12/60%, Stockton 18/55%)
96 Malone 27 ppg 50% TS (Hornacek 18/65%, Stockton 12/60%)
97 Malone 26 ppg 50% TS (Hornacek 15/57%, Stockton 16/63%)
98 Malone 26 ppg 53% TS (Hornacek 11/53%, Stockton 11/57%)

Malone's A 27 ppg, 53% TSer who was carrying an enormous load. The Jazz postseason offenses in those years were:

Utah PS offenses
94 +4.5
95 +8.5
96 +6.7
97 +6.5
98 +0.1 (and that was +4.3 in the WC PS before the debacle in Chi)

So you're left with a scorer, who is the primary scorer, who is scoring at a rate that only the all-time best eclipse, and his team's ORtg changes correlate strongly (0.77 from 92-98) with his individual ORtg changes. Here are the players I consider to be better offensive post players and their PS numbers*:

Hakeem (93-95): 27/57%
Shaq (00-02): 30/56%
Kareem (77-80): 32/62%
Dirk (09-11): 27/62%
Barkley (89-93): 26/58%

And here's the crux of the point: If Malone could maintain his volume/efficiency (27/58%) despite the changes in what his teammates were doing in playoff series...he'd actually be raising his game significantly. Significantly! Heck, 27/56% would be raising his game a lot because that would simply be the "expected" TS% against those defenses. This is, in a statistical sense, what Hakeem did (and why he was voted in at No. 5). If Malone was doing this, he'd quite likely have multiple championship rings and we'd have voted him in a long time ago.

So I guess bastillon put me in an"overrated/underrated" subjective booth. If you think of Malone as a 30/60% guy, then that does really overstate him as an iso scorer. If you think of him as a 27/53% guy on a good team (or for some, a really good team), that understates him as a scorer. Who cares about the semantics here though, when the important point is that Malone is an excellent scorer who is just a cut below the all-timers.

*Malone 92-98 is 27/53% (103.9 opp DRtg). He's +1.6% aTS% gainst his opponent's, and when we incorporate how good of a passer he was, there just simply aren't any bigs left who are better offensively. Other bigs in their prime as PS scorers:

Duncan 23/55% v 103.7 DRtg teams
Moses 23/55% v 103.2 DRtg teams
Ewing 23/55% v 105.1 DRtg teams
Robinson 23/55% v 106.5 DRtg teams


fatal9 wrote:This would me my assessment of Malone's scoring, I don't think "scoring without Stockton" is as much of an issue as other things...

- Amazing at getting the ball in traffic and either finishing or drawing fouls due to his strength. He had some of the best hands ever, doesn't matter who is throwing him the ball or what system he is in, he will always find a way to score off other players unless he plays on a team with literally zero ball movement.
- His ability to go to the right spots on the floor is a SKILL. The problem is, that sort of scoring can't be relied upon against a good set defense trying to make a stop. It's a good way to tack on the points when the defense lets up or makes mistakes however.
- In an iso situation, pretty much the only shot prime Malone was shooting was a 12-15 foot fallaway over a defender. He could mix it up over the course of a game, give you a little jump hook sometimes, face you up and drive, but 9 times out of 10, if you give him the ball and get out of his way, it's going to be that fallaway. I hate that shot, well not the shot itself but how many times he shot it. That sort of somewhat one dimensional iso-scoring is the reason he couldn't come through as a scorer in the playoffs at the rate you'd expect from someone with his averages. It's why when his jumper is on, he'll look unstoppable, shoot like 15/26 in one game but be 9/24 and 6/19 in the next two while taking the exact same shots. His consistency as an iso-scorer is just not where you'd like it to be.
- Stockton was responsible for a large number of late 80s/early 90s Malone's points. When people exagerrate and say Stockton spoon fed Malone, this is the version they are referring to. Malone became less and less dependent on Stockton as the years rolled by.
- As the 90s went on, his game progressed to being more finesse based (he could still make midrange shots when he was young, but didn't shoot them as often as later on), he also became a better one on one scorer (but again...I hate that fallaway) and with added experience he of course read defenses better and became a really good passer as well (over the shoulder no look pass being his trademark, great and hitting cutters and outlet passing).
- His conditioning was epic, he was probably the best forward ever at beating his man down the floor for an easy fastbreak basket. This again, is something teams can cut down when they adjust for it in the playoffs.
- PnR beast, in his younger days he attacked more off the PnR, in the MVP years he popped for the jumper.
- In general he got more easy baskets than any 25+ ppg guy I've consistently seen. Combination of playing with the best PG at delivering the ball, the offensive system Utah ran which creates lots of easy baskets off cuts and backscreens and to Malone's credit, him having a scorer's nose for where to be on the floor. Those easy baskets aren't quite as readily avaliable in the playoffs with better defensive teams so that contributes to decline in his playoff scoring as well.

This is why I don't see Malone's drop off in the playoffs as "choking", but as a drop off that can be naturally expected from him given his skills as a scorer. He was better at scoring on paper than a guy like Duncan...but he was better at things that are more likely to be taken away in the playoffs. That is why he's overrated as a scorer.

kaima wrote:Another quick visual anecdote:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bsuLF0DqzU[/youtube]


Great performance but this shows exactly what people already criticize about Malone's game. Too many jumpers! In a game he was "on", he's going to look amazing, but he didn't mix it up in these years, his iso-scoring is too dependent on them. The thing that bothers me is that I believe he had the talent and body to score in so many more different ways, but he just fell in love with that jumper. It's a non-attacking shot which bails out defenses, it kept him from utilizing all of his skills, it was an inefficient shot against playoff defenses in isolation and it's why he couldn't pace his scoring like truly great scorers who know they can get theirs in a variety of ways whenever they want at any point of the game.

I already know Karl can shoot a jumper for me on command, but your jumper can't be on every game (especially if you're not a pure shooter) so what then can Malone do for me when I need him to score on isos? It's not an efficient shot in isos especially when it's your only real "go to" move. In the game before that one he shot 6/21, in the game after he shot 7/21. Too many jumpers and the result is very erratic iso-scoring where he looks like a world beater one night and hopeless the next night.


Plus, this is a great thread on 93 Barkley:
viewtopic.php?t=1271397

In general I agree that 1990 is peak for Barkley but his defense was really bad that year.
Quotatious wrote: Bastillon is Hakeem. Combines style and substance.

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