Dr Spaceman wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:For all the talk of the Rockets being a spent force, which I get, consider:
The Warriors just had a point differential of +94 for the series. That's the second highest of the Best-of-7 1st round era.
I think we have to ask:
Do we really see the Rockets as considerably weaker than normal 8th seeds?
If we don't, then this is basically telling us that the Curry-less Warriors objectively are playing better right now than typical #1 seeds do with their superstars in the first round.
Obviously if the Warriors fall apart against the Blazers that throws this thinking out the window...but I have to say that there's really no way anyone can claim they expected the Warriors to play that well without Curry...because it frankly wasn't reasonable to expect them to win by any more than that WITH Curry.
It's wrong to give all this credit to Green. This is first and foremost about a group of players with confidence knowing what they are supposed to do in each situation and then being able to execute, which goes back to Kerr/Walton/etc. Nevertheless, obviously both the offense and the defense now play with Green as the fulcrum around which everything else is balanced. Any player who can thrive in that role on a team this effective is someone who seems like he shouldn't be considered a tier down from any other player in the game.
You and I have been having the same conversation in different places. The Warriors were more dominant with Green on the floor than the Spurs were against the Memphis Gas station clerks. This is astounding.
I'm open to anything at this point. I'm open to Dray being the GOAT peak if this continues
I am as well, but between you, me, and the lamppost that is the entire internet, you're going to find me very cautious about trumpeting that last point for at least a while.
Part of it, if I'm honest, is that I do protect my credibility. While I do make "talk me down" threads at times where I"m essentially daring people to tear an idea apart, I only do that to solicit maximum intellectual firepower directed at a problem, which I can only do when I feel like I can sufficiently describe the dilemma.
I'm really not there yet with Green and the Warriors. They don't make sense based on existing paradigms of NBA basketball and I'm going to be trying my hardest not to try to imply that I or others think we do know exactly how all this is working, because we really don't.
This is a challenge also because I like many others were relatively quick to embrace Curry as potentially the GOAT peak. Yes I've always included caveats to the statement, but I've been quite straight forward in my belief that a hypothetical Curry-like player absolutely could be the GOAT. If I then end up deciding that he isn't because his teammate is the GOAT...just Wow.
As I say all this, none of this should imply this stuff is bothering me: It's so damn exciting, I love it. We're all learning about things we didn't think were possible, and it's being done essentially like the neurotic genius of 1970's Dutch soccer without any of the neuroticism. Great time to be a fan.
Last - and saying up front that I've heard others say this stuff on here, but I can't remember if it was you or drza or realbig or someone else: All this stuff with Green is making me think more and more about Bill Walton. To me that is the historical guy to look at, and for those not aware:
It's basically a consensus that Walton at his peak was the best defensive player in the game, but when you look at the data it seems to imply his offensive impact was bigger than his defensive impact...much like Green. Additionally, the issue with offense vs defense impact is that they bleed into each other, and the benefit of a brilliant point center is that he tends to get the ball in his hands immediately, and can run the break passing the ball to his smaller, faster, better shooting teammates.
If you had told me a few years ago that someone would come along who was very much like Walton, and he would be the most valuable player in the league and lead a GOAT level team, I'd have said, "Makes sense." The odds of getting another Walton were always low, but if it can happen once it can happen again, and to me it's not weird at all to argue that a Walton-like player could be GOAT level.
So the main thing that's tough to swallow then, other than that such a player would miraculously end up on the same team as Steph Curry the superhuman shooter/dribbler/balancer, is that Green doesn't look like Walton and until 2 years ago was a backup who'd spent 4 years in college and been drafted in the 2nd round.
But defensively, Green actually DOES seem to be of the build that works best right now, and offensively it doesn't actually seem that crazy to look at Green as being similarly talented as a playmaker. Walton of course had the other thing going that in college before the injuries he had far more volume scoring talent, but when he was leading the Blazers to the championship that wasn't how he played so it doesn't actually seem that relevant.
