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"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
People have been questioning the strength of the early ABA enough that it has me again questioning my higher (than most) placement of Hawkins. As result, I've decided to flip-flop the relationship between him and McAdoo on my peaks list. Below is the comparison I'd done between he and McAdoo (and McHale). I was basically flipping a coin between McAdoo and Hawkins anyway.
1st ballot: Bob McAdoo '75
Spoiler:
Hawkins vs. McAdoo (vs. McHale)
To start off, let’s just look at some base stats….. ‘68 Hawkins rs per 100 poss: 26.6 pts, 13.4 reb, 4.55 ast @ 59.7% TS (+11.45% rTS) 28.8 PER, .273 WS/48 in 44.9 mpg ‘75 McAdoo rs per 100 poss: 35.6 pts, 14.5 reb, 2.3 ast @ 56.9% TS (+6.68% rTS) 25.8 PER, .242 WS/48 in 43.2 mpg ‘87 McHale rs per 100 poss: 31.9 pts, 12.1 reb, 3.1 ast @ 65.5% TS (+11.73% rTS!!) 24.0 PER, .232 WS/48 in 39.7 mpg
Hawkins then got even better in the playoffs; McAdoo took a small dip in the playoffs, McHale (injured) took a more substantial dip in the post-season (though at 17.9 PER, .120 WS/48, and +2.0 BPM, he’s still pretty good). So taken at face-value, statistically Hawkins looks the best, McAdoo probably 2nd, McHale third. However, obviously we can’t merely take them at face-value; strength of competition must be factored in (especially considering that PER and WS/48 are standardized relative to the the league average player).
Without a doubt (imo), Hawkins played in the weakest league of the three, where there was precious few in the way of actual elite star level players for him to compete with.
The NBA of ‘75 was better, but still a bit “depleted” of talent relative to some other eras. Guys like West, Robertson, Chamberlain, Reed, as well as guys like DeBusschere, Gus Johnson, Jerry Lucas have all vanished. And the ABA has robbed them of much of the top-tier replacement talent: near-peak Dr. J, peak Gilmore and George McGinnis, as well as prime Dan Issel, Bobby Jones, George Gervin, Maurice Lucas, etc are all still in the ABA at this point. In ‘75, guys like Jim Price, Steve Mix, Charlie Scott, and aging and fading versions of Dave Bing and Gail Goodrich were all-stars. In ‘87, otoh, McHale is distinguishing himself in a league that has peak or near-peak versions of Magic, Larry, Worthy, Dominique, as well as prime versions of Jordan, Olajuwon, Moses, Barkley, Isiah, Parish, English, as well as several (maybe dozens??) of guys at a level similar to prime Mo Cheeks, Tom Chambers, Fat Lever, Mark Aguirre, and Bill Laimbeer.
Comparing Player Attributes…. I’m going to start with Hawkins (my 3rd ballot) and McAdoo (my top HM).
Scoring Some may be inclined to wave Hawkins aside as a scorer due to the competition in the early ABA. But even against weaker competition, Hawkins’ volume and efficiency (shown above; and he was going for even larger volume at 65.1% TS in the playoffs, too) is nothing to sneeze at. Combined with that: 1) we see in his pre-injury numbers in ‘69 that he was averaging approximately 36-37 pts/100 poss at probably 59-60% TS (~+9% or so rTS).....pre-injury (and presumably near-peak) Rick Barry was averaging around 37 pts/100 poss at ~62% TS in the same league. 2) Post-injury/surgery Hawkins in ‘70 (an NBA that was marginally better than that of ‘75, imho) was averaging 24.8 pts/100 poss at +5.16% rTS. If I assume pre-injury Hawkins was better (and his drop-off in late ‘69 is dramatic enough to suggest he likely suffered some permanent deficits)..... …...there’s plenty of room to credit Hawkins as a formidable scorer. There’s sufficient video evidence to see that he was a very good close-to-mid range (like 10-18 ft) shooter, excellent transition finisher, capable of amazing close-range one-handed shots (in the same vein as Gervin or Dr. J), and a good FT-shooter.
Ultimately, though, I have to give at least a tiny edge to McAdoo. Pretty massive volume scoring on very very good efficiency in a stronger league than Hawkins. Looking at how many mid-range (or short-to-mid range, like 10-16 ft) jumpers he took---often contested and off the dribble---that he was still able to shoot >51% FG% is remarkable. And being able to shoot so effectively off the dribble (and from decent range) when you’re 6’9” is an impressive and scary skillset. 80+% FT-shooter that year, too. And given guys like Chris Bosh, Kevin Love, Jack Sikma, and apparently now DeMarcus Cousins all learned to extend their range out to the 3pt line, I’ve no reason to believe that McAdoo couldn’t also. As result, I think he’d fit well into this era of floor-spacing bigs, pick-n’-pops, etc.
Passing/Playmaking/Handles Even relative to positional expectations, this one obviously goes to Hawkins. Can delve into this further if someone disagrees; but the wealth of evidence (ast and TO rates, limited video of Hawkins, reputation, etc) all point to Hawkins. Granted he’s slipping out of his prime by the time turnovers were recorded, but McAdoo actually appears a touch turnover-prone (whereas Hawkins appeared the opposite, in the early ABA at least).
Defense I’m not exactly sure what to think of Hawkins’ defense. There’s so little video available to the public of his peak, no defensive stats at all (late career stl/blk numbers look OK, fwiw), and limited anecdotal info available. The ONLY subjective thing I’ve heard of his defense was a rating as “bad” from a poster here whose credibility I question. Otherwise, I’ve heard nothing (good or bad). Overall, I guess I’d grade his defense as average to maybe slightly below (but with a big “*” by it, due to lack of info).
This would be fairly consistent with McAdoo’s defensive reputation, too, as his is pretty mediocre (to sub-par) as well. Although in McAdoo’s defense, part of that is likely in relation to the fact that he was forced to play most of his career at a position he was significantly under-sized for. otoh, mediocre defense is more difficult to “hide” when you’re a big man; so perhaps it’s less “forgivable” for McAdoo???
Overall, I’m going to call defense roughly a wash. I certainly don’t think it’s any sort of big divider between them.
Rebounding I’m calling this roughly a wash, too. McAdoo averaged 14.5 reb/100 poss vs. 13.4 reb/100 poss for Hawkins (pre-injury Hawkins averaged nearly the same in ‘69, too, fwiw). With positional expectations in mind---given McAdoo was 6’9” and playing C, while Hawkins was 6’8” and playing primarily on the perimeter (SF)---I’d give the edge to Hawkins if all other things were equal. But again: weak early ABA. Brings it back to a wash for me.
Playoff Considerations fwiw, McAdoo dropped off mildly in the playoffs, whereas Hawkins actually elevated his level of play even further in the playoffs.
Overall, this comparison is basically a wash to me. I’ve let Hawkins nudge him out for my ballot, perhaps based on the elevated playoff play, but I reserve the right to switch to McAdoo. I’ve flip-flopped more than once on this comparison.
How does McHale compare in these aspects of the game? Here’s how I see it….
I think he’s [clearly] the best scorer of the three. Seriously: 31.9 pts/100 poss @ 65.5% TS (+11.73% rTS) in a what is [perhaps by far] the most competitive league of the three is ridiculous. Critics may mention how the presence of Bird and Parish takes pressure off of McHale. Fair enough, but they also steal primacy (volume) from him. Look how a near-peak Chris Bosh’s volume fell when he arrived in Miami next to two stars. That McHale was a dominant enough scorer to warrant the volume he had among that company is remarkable. Critics may also cite Larry Bird’s playmaking as responsible for a big chunk of McHale’s efficiency. This is a touch misleading, imo; watching games from that era, McHale appears to be getting A LOT of his points on simple low-post isolations: he posts up, they dump him the ball, and he destroys whoever is guarding him. Simple as that. I’d further cite McHale’s ‘89 numbers as evidence of his prowess. Bird missed basically this entire season, and McHale is 31 years old and decidedly past his peak at this point (was really never quite the same after the injury late in ‘87), too: he still averaged 29.9 pts/100 poss @ 60.8% TS (+7.11% rTS).
McHale’s clearly [imo] the best defender of the three, too. Guy who can guard outside his position (had to often guard SF so Bird could guard a big), contests well, fundamentally sound post defender, and the team’s leading rim-protector (2.7 blk/100 poss in ‘87); All-Def 1st Team, too.
As a passer/playmaker, I’d rate him behind Hawkins, but likely at least marginally ahead of McAdoo from all I’ve seen. Takes care of the ball very well.
Rebounding: one of the weaker aspects of his game, likely last of the three, though likely just a little behind the other two. Again, I’ll point out that he had to often guard perimeter players (SF’s), which pulls him away from the rim and reduces his likelihood of getting on the defensive glass. Still averaged 12.1 reb/100 poss that year.
Based on all of the above, I’d rate ‘87 McHale significantly above both Hawkins and McAdoo…...in the regular season. But then there are playoff considerations: McHale was injured, and though still a significantly above average player despite a broken foot, he does suffer the largest post-season drop-off of the three. That’s the only consideration that keeps this relatively close for me. I’m still inclined to give him the edge because he was flat-out a better player for 90% of the season, and his injury was a sort of fluky thing as opposed to chronic injury hitting a boiling point.
2nd ballot: Connie Hawkins '68 Touch of mystery surrounding early Hawkins, but here is how I see it.....
Physically, he’s listed as 6’8” (and from all photographic evidence I’ve seen, I think he’s a legit 6’8”.....not like a “generously 6’8” in his shoes” type of situation), and 210 lbs on bbref. He’s got a wirey strong build, a pretty long reach, and massive hands (which enable all the one-handed palm pass fakes, crazy sweeping scoop shots, etc):
And he’s got some grace, speed, and ups, as you can get a little sense of from in the videos below, as well as seeing some of the one-handed palming plays (and bear in mind when watching that almost all of that footage is him PAST his physical prime). Overall physically, he’s kinda reminiscent of Scottie Pippen, but with bigger hands.
He’s got some solid mid-range touch (again, see in videos below), and some good handles and passing for a biggish guy (was the original “point forward”, if I’m not mistaken).
Now before we get into what he did in his peak season (‘68), let’s first take a quick look at what he was still capable of in his late 20’s AFTER knee surgery (which I’m sure you’re all aware of how well players were typically able to come back after knee surgery in that day and age). Coming into the NBA as a 28-year-old rookie, one year after knee surgery, he went for a 10th-in-the-league 19.74 PER and .147 WS/48 in 40.9 mpg. His per 100 poss estimates: 24.8 pts, 10.5 reb, 4.85 ast @ +5.16% rTS. And fwiw, he was awarded All-NBA 1st Team honors alongside Billy Cunningham, and ahead of forwards Lou Hudson and Gus Johnson. Did nearly as well (on larger minutes) in the playoffs that year: somewhat inflated by pace, but he avg 25.4 ppg/13.9 rpg/5.9 apg in the ‘70 playoffs.
Again: this is what he was capable of past his physical prime. Statistically, he’s not far behind [an arguably peak] Walt Frazier, who we voted in at #32.
Anyway, I wanted to throw a little spotlight on what he was capable of in the NBA post-surgery because I want everyone cognizant of the very real possibility (if not the likelihood) that he was even better before his knee injury. If you don’t think the knee injury affected him, consider his scoring averages (it’s all that’s available on game log data of the time) in ‘69 before the injury: he was averaging 33.4 ppg pre-injury. In the 11 rs games AFTER coming back from injury: 19.9 ppg, followed by a significantly sub-standard (poor, actually) playoffs. I realize I cannot precisely extrapolate what he was in ‘70 by citing his late-season (post-injury) stats from ‘69; but anyway take it for what it’s worth.
In the ‘69 ABA season (marginally stronger than the ‘68 ABA, imo) there was also a presumably near-peak Rick Barry around for 35 games to compare to….. ‘69 Barry per 100 poss estimates: 36.0 pts, 9.95 reb, 4.1 ast @ +11.35% rTS PER 29.6, .301 WS/48 in 38.9 mpg
**‘69 Hawkins per 100 poss estimates: 33.6 pts, 12.6 reb, 4.35 ast @ +8.25% rTS. PER 29.7, .293 WS/48 in 39.4 mpg. **this includes the aforementioned 11 games (11 of 47 total) AFTER coming back from the injury, btw. Given the scoring drop I already outlined, it’s safe to assume his overall pre-injury numbers were a little better than what a near-peak Barry was doing in the same league. Frankly, he was probably a better player (before the injury) in '69 than he was in '68.
Now on to his ‘68 peak season (perhaps only peak by default, because he was actually healthy from start to finish)…... Yes, the ABA of the late 60’s was not overly loaded with talent, as Clyde Frazier pointed out. It wasn’t total bush-league, either. Mel Daniels was there, and there were several other legitimately “good” (if not truly “All-Star level”) players around: Donnie Freeman, Louie Dampier, Larry Jones, Roger Brown, Doug Moe, John Beasley, etc. And at any rate, Hawkins didn’t just distinguish himself in this crowd…….he utterly crushed them. He led the league handily in PER and WS/48, for instance, despite playing a league-leading 44.9 mpg. He had nearly twice as many OWS as the 2nd-place guy. He dominated that league to a degree that we haven’t often seen. Seriously: do a search for seasons with >28 PER (his was 28.8), >.270 WS/48 (his was .273), and >40 mpg (his was a whopping 44.9) in NBA and ABA history…...you come up with just 10 NBA seasons (3 of Kareem, 3 of Wilt, 2 of Jordan, 1 of Robinson, 1 of Shaq), and only 1 in ABA history (Connie Hawkins). If we change the requirement to 42 mpg, five of those NBA seasons disappear, btw.
Per 100 possession estimates for ‘68: 26.6 pts, 13.4 reb, 4.55 ast, just 2.8 tov @ +11.45% rTS. His 59.7% TS would be elite even by today’s standards.
And then he got even better in the playoffs.PER 30.0 and .310 WS/48 in 44.0 mpg in the playoffs, as he led the Pipers to the title. His numbers in the playoffs are gross even with considerations of pace: 29.9 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 4.6 apg, 3.4 topg @ 65.1% TS (which is like +16.8 rTS!!).
So yeah: regardless of the strength of the ABA in ‘68, I look at all of the above and absolutely I believe he’s a valid candidate at this stage.
3rd ballot: Elton Brand '06 Going to start with the simple statistical backing, including league rank in a few metrics (particularly relevant because imo the mid-2000's was a super-stacked era)..... Per 100 possessions: 33.0 pts, 13.3 reb, 3.5 ast, 1.4 stl, 3.4 blk, 2.9 tov @ 58.0% TS (+4.40% rTS) PER 26.55 (6th in league, behind only what are arguably peak versions of Dirk, Wade, and Kobe, and prime versions of KG and Lebron) .2294 WS/48 (7th in league, behind arguably peak versions of Dirk, Wade, and Chauncey Billups, and prime KG, Manu, and Lebron) +6.28 BPM (5th in league, behind Lebron, KG, Wade, and Andrei Kirilenko) 116 ORtg/100 DRtg (+16) .....in 39.2 mpg
In raw terms he was going for 24.7 ppg/10.0 rpg/2.6 apg/1.0 spg/2.5 bpg/2.2 topg @ 58.0% TS. In the playoffs he improved on that: 25.4 ppg/10.3 rpg/4.0 apg/0.9 spg/2.6 bpg/2.4 topg @ 59.0% TS. He had the league's 6th-best PER, 4th-best WS/48, and 3rd-best BPM in the playoffs, while playing a huge 43.1 mpg.
He was straight-up beasting that year. RAPM rates him as a small positive defensively, too.
He had post-game, a mid-range shot, very good FT-shooting big, very good passing big, very good rebounding PF, decent post defender, underrated rim-protector. He had a pretty nice all-around game, imo. Body and skill-set that translates nicely to any era.
fwiw, he finished 7th in MVP Award Shares, behind only peak (or near-peak) versions of Nash, Wade, Dirk, Kobe, Billups, and a prime Lebron James (and ahead of prime KG and Tim Duncan). 7th, in what is (imo) one of the most competitive (as far as the talent at the top) seasons in NBA history.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
Narigo wrote:1. 1992 Clyde Drexler 2. 1975 Rick Barry 3. 1975 Bob Mcadoo
While I'm grateful for any ballots at this point, I'd also like some more discussion or reasoning. So I'm going to try and draw you out on one point at least....
Why Barry over McAdoo? Since you're going with the same year, it makes the statistical comparison easier: they're facing the same basic competition, the advanced metrics are standardized to the exact same league, etc.
Quick comp of basic advanced metrics: PER McAdoo - 25.8 Barry - 23.5
WS/48 McAdoo - .242 Barry - .188
BPM Barry - +5.3 McAdoo - +4.7
Mostly advantage to McAdoo, especially considering he averaged 43.2 mpg to 40.4 mpg for Barry.
Pretty clear [and actually fairly substantial] edge to McAdoo based on these as well (especially with the slightly higher mpg).
McAdoo's defensive reputation around this point in his career is pretty mediocre, though he's being forced to play outside his ideal position. Barry's defensive reputation is basically average/mediocre, too.
I'll allow a playoff edge to Barry, but it's certainly a smaller edge than the one McAdoo has throughout the rs; and sample size.... In the playoffs, McAdoo had a 24.3 PER, .168 WS/48, +2.2 BPM in a massive 46.7 mpg. Barry in the playoffs (title, yes): 22.5 PER, .204 WS/48, +7.4 BPM*, though in reduced (relative to McAdoo) 42.7 mpg. *NOTE: BPM (and to a lesser degree WS/48) is heavily influenced by the team's performance; Braves were 3-4 in the playoffs, Warriors were 12-5.
As good of a scorer as Barry was, I think McAdoo is clearly like a full tier ahead of him this year. Barry can have the edge as a playmaker, even relative to position......and they're mostly a wash in other areas, imo. As scoring is the primary thing you're getting with these two (and McAdoo holding a very clear edge there), I'm inclined to favor McAdoo overall.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
fpliii wrote:I'm not sure if Penny should get a ton of consideration, but I was just looking at lorak's numbers for 94-97 (we don't have on/off for 93; sorted by MP):
Anderson - -4.9 (96) ; +0.3 (97) Grant +3.4 (94) ; +4.8 (96) ; +1.3 (97) Penny +3.5 (97*) Scott +0.9 (93) Shaq +4.0 (96) ; +2.1 (97)
* With Grant and Scott in, there is no entry for all 23 games he missed as far as I can tell. The sheet also lists "25+ in (41)" as +3.5 and "25+ in (40)" as +2.4. If anyone knows how to calculate ElGee's WOWY score and has a few minutes, would be great to see.
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Now, I don't know that I'd necessarily argue Penny against Shaq during this period (though who knows?), but it is interesting to see that kind of separation in 96 (and to some extent in 97) from everyone else. Caught my eye at least.
I understand the bigs/smalls dichotomy for sure, just wondering:
Narigo wrote:1. 1992 Clyde Drexler
Narigo - How would you compare peak Clyde and peak Penny? Is it a large gap to you?
Now that's the difference between first and last place.
Sticking with king and drexler for my first 2 ballots. Probably between mcadoo and gervin for my 3rd. Penny is right there, too. Will come back with a writeup.
My nominations will be: 1. 96 Penny Hardaway 2. 99 Jason Kidd 3. 85 Isiah Thomas
I've already explained all 3 in previous threads but my main argument for each comes out to be: Penny - offensively he's more capable of leading a great team than probably anyone left and defensively he's above average.
Kidd - One of the highest single season on/off scores ever. It is also the best offensive team he's been on. Now 03 has the advantage of a superior postseason but I don't think he was a better player then just that he was in a weaker conference.
Isiah - Pre Bad Boys he actually earned his reputation. He averaged 21.5/4.5/13.9 (or 18.9/4.2/12.4 pace adjusted to last year's league average) on 52.9 TS% but a moderately high 115 ORTG. In the playoffs he really performed (and he's someone who historically outperformed his regular seasons regularly) winning the first series easily and fought Boston to a close 6 games (Boston blew them out game 1 but barely won in 2, 5, and 6) averaging 26/6/11 on 55 TS with a 121 ORTG. He put up 26/6/16 in a game 3 win, 21/4/10 in a game 4 win, and 37/12/9 in the final game. Offensively he led Detroit to the 9th best offense with a pretty bad (unless you like a ton of inefficient scorers) supporting cast.
Bob McAdoo - 7 Clyde Drexler - 5 Penny Hardaway - 3 Bernard King - 3 Connie Hawkins - 2 Rick Barry - 2 Scottie Pippen - 2 Jason Kidd - 2 Elton Brand - 1 Kevin Love - 1 Isiah Thomas - 1
fwiw, I counted Clyde Frazier's 1st ballot as King, 2nd ballot as Drexler. Still waiting for your 3rd ballot Clyde (and to confirm #1 and #2). And we're down to the 11th hour......
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"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
Already explained my Hawkins and McAdoo picks. Two high-scoring, efficient forwards with very good rebounding ability, capable of carrying a team by themselves to the playoffs, and having success once they got there. Very dominant relative to the leagues they played in.
Brand wasn't as dominant era-relative, and I'm not as high on his consistency (he wasn't all that great in the first round against Denver, averaged below 18 ppg on just a little over 51% TS), but still a terrific two-way player (definitely better than McAdoo and Hawkins on D), completely dominated the Suns in the second round of the playoffs, and he was arguably the second best power forward in the league in '06, in the greatest power forward era in NBA history. I mean, Dirk was definitely the best PF in '06, but Brand has a very legitimate argument over KG and Duncan that year (well, he was clearly superior than Duncan in the regular season that year). That has to count for something. Honestly, I'm not even strongly convinced whether Brand was worse than Hawkins and McAdoo. Right now I feel like McAdoo's and Hawkins' era-relative dominance is important, but I could change my mind some day.
Also considered Penny Hardaway and Clyde Drexler for my #3 vote, but decided to go with Brand because he was more of a two-way impact player. Nowhere near Clyde or Penny as a playmaker, obviously, but a great scorer, very solid rebounder, and a pretty good defender. Also a bit better than Drexler and Hardaway in terms of advanced metrics.
He exceeded his already stellar regular season production in the playoffs across the board, and this was while playing through injuries as I’ll detail below. It was one of the most impressive post season performances in the modern era.
At his peak, king was one of the most dynamic scorers the league had seen. He was more methodical than flashy, but he knew what he was good at and kept going to it. His turnaround jumper was so lethal that he didn't even have to look at the hoop when releasing the shot. It was all in 1 quick motion where the defender really had no chance to block it. He was also very bull-like in the open court. Not a high leaper, but extremely powerful with long strides getting to the rim.
He was probably best known for his 1st round game 5 clincher against the pistons in 84:
In a critical and decisive Game 5, Bernard King was his usual unstoppable self putting up 40 points as the Knicks held a double-digit lead with under two minutes remaining in the fourth quarter. Then Thomas decided to take things into his own hands by putting on a performance of epic proportions, tallying 16 points within the game’s final 94 seconds, to force overtime.
King and Thomas exchanged offensive blows like a heavyweight title fight, with King getting the final blow by jamming an offensive put-back in the games final moments, giving him a game high 46 points and the Knicks a 3-2 series win. King showed a national audience that he would become one of the game’s most prolific scoring machines before injuries robbed him of his explosiveness. Game 5 was also arguably the moment that put a young “Zeke” on par with the NBA’s elite.
The Knicks would go on to lose to the eventual NBA champion celtics in 7 games, as he played through injuries and still averaged 29.1 PPG on 59.7% TS in the series. The guy was just relentless. The celtics also ranked 1st in SRS and 3rd in defense that season.
"The key was his preparation," said former Knicks coach and ESPN analyst Hubie Brown.
Part of that preparation included practicing thousands of shots from what King called his "sweet spots." In the half court, he identified three points along the baseline out to the sideline, then extended an imaginary line from a halfway point up the lane to the sideline with three more, then three more extended from the foul line to the sideline. He did the same on the other side of the lane.
Within the lane he identified four spots from the rim to the top of the key. These 22 spots, all within 18 feet of the basket, created a matrix of areas from which he felt supremely confident he could score. If a team tried to deny him the ball on offense, he would move from one sweet spot to another.
"He had the ability to see what all five positions were doing. That's how he could handle double- and triple-teams, because he knew where everyone would be," Brown said. "He knew how to create space for the high-percentage shot or find the guy who was open."
Blazers ranked 2nd in SRS that season, and took one of the best teams in NBA history (bulls) to 6 games in the finals. He didn’t shoot great, but he had a solid overall series. I think pippen and penny are right there with him, too, but I just like his overall package a bit better than them. The combo of athleticism, skill set and bball IQ drexler possessed was hard to match, and that was on full display in 92.
Felt like I had to go with Gervin here after pushing for King the last few threads. Right there with king as arguably the purest scorer left on the board. Gervin's 78 season was slightly more impressive statistically, but I think his playoff run in 79 is the edge there. In 79, the spurs faced the defending champion bullets in the ECF, with a heartbreaking 2 pt game 7 loss. Gervin scored 42 pts in the game, including 24 in the 2nd half. The spurs and bullets ranked 1st and 2nd in SRS respectively that season.
The GOAT man defender and the 3rd best defensive peak for a center IMO. Both Kareem and Wilt calls him the toughest defender they ever faced. Here are some numbers on his man defense (credit to Djoker):
Spoiler:
* indicates a missing FG% in a single game
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1970: 21.0 ppg on 34.8 %FG 1971: 26.6 ppg on 48.8 %FG 1972: 24.0 ppg on 44.1 %FG 1973: 25.8 ppg on 48.8 %FG
vs Nate: 25.1 ppg on 45.6 %FG vs Everyone: 30.5 ppg on 55.3 %FG
1971 PS: 27.8 ppg on 48.9 %FG 1972 PS: 22.8 ppg on 40.5 %FG 1973 PS: 22.8 ppg on 42.7 %FG
vs Nate PS: 24.4 ppg on 43.8 %FG vs Everyone: 29.7 ppg on 51.0 %FG
Wilt Chamberlain
1965: 26.7 ppg on 50.0 %FG 1966: 28.6 ppg on 48.9 %FG 1967: 20.8 ppg on 63.3 %FG 1968: 13.3 ppg on 37.9 %FG* 1969: 13.8 ppg on 54.7 %FG 1971: 10.2 ppg on 55.3 %FG 1972: 6.8 ppg on 67.9 %FG 1973: 5.3 ppg on 68.4 %FG
vs Nate: 15.7 ppg on 53.7 %FG vs Everyone: 23.1 ppg on 58.1 %FG
1967 PS: 17.7 ppg on 56.0 %FG 1969 PS: 12.0 ppg on 50.0 %FG 1973 PS: 7.0 ppg on 61.1 %FG
vs Nate PS: 12.5 ppg on 54.2 %FG vs Everyone: 19.0 ppg on 53.7 %FG
Elvin Hayes
1969: 28.2 ppg on 46.3 %FG* 1970: 21.5 ppg on 33.3 %FG* 1971: 26.0 ppg on 37.2 %FG*** 1972: 20.3 ppg on 37.4 %FG
vs Nate: 23.8 ppg on 40.6 %FG vs Everyone: 27.4 ppg on 44.0 %FG
I didn't include 1973 because Hayes now shared the court with Unseld and it's unclear who Thurmond defended.
Willis Reed
1969: 15.4 ppg on 41.2 %FG*** 1970: 17.0 ppg on 40.0 %FG* 1971: 14.0 ppg on 33.3 %FG*
vs Nate: 15.4 ppg on 37.6 %FG vs Everyone: 21.3 ppg on 49.7 %FG
I included Reed's numbers from midway in 1969 when he became a starting C following the Bellamy trade until his injury in the 1971 playoffs.
Walt Bellamy
1965: 15.7 ppg on ? %FG 1966: 18.6 ppg on 44.4 %FG**** 1967: 12.4 ppg on 26.9 %FG*** 1968: 14.0 ppg on 60.0 %FG* 1969: 10.8 ppg on 33.3 %FG**** 1970: 4.4 ppg on 31.8 %FG 1971: 10.6 ppg on 58.3 %FG*** 1972: 11.0 ppg on 51.7 %FG** 1973: 13.0 ppg on 60.0 %FG**
vs Nate: 12.3 ppg on 42.9 %FG vs Everyone: 17.5 ppg on 51.4 %FG
Bob Lanier
1971: 13.2 ppg on 45.5 %FG** 1972: 22.2 ppg on 56.9 %FG** 1973: 16.5 ppg on 39.8 %FG**
vs Nate: 17.3 ppg on 46.1 %FG vs Everyone: 21.7 ppg on 48.2 %FG
Dave Cowens
1971: 15.0 ppg on 36.2 %FG* 1972: 17.0 ppg on 51.4 %FG*** 1973: 17.8 ppg on 42.2 %FG*
vs Nate: 16.6 ppg on 42.5 %FG vs Everyone: 18.8 ppg on 45.3 %FG
Thurmond has the highest rebounding season in history behind Wilt and Russell and even though it doesn't look as impressive after adjustment, his rebound rate of 18.8% in 1967 is still comparable to other peak centers. FWIW, Thurmond is the first player to have officially recorded a quadruple double. His -1.3% TS relative to league average is a slight concern but since his scoring volume is quite low anyway (14.6 FGA per 100 possession, which is around Mozgov level) and the primary cause of his inefficiency is him shooting mid-range jumpers rather than having stone hands (at least from the highlights), I don't think it's a major problem. He is a net negative offensively but his defensive impact dwarfs any problem he have on offense. According to ElGee's WOWY data, Warriors' SRS dropped from +4.4 to -6.0 in the 25 games Thurmond missed from 67~68. He finished 2nd in MVP voting behind Wilt (who was voted in at #4), anchored the 2nd best defense in the league behind Russell's Celtics and other than the Game 2 beatdown, Thurmond's Warriors were only -1.8ppg against the 76ers in the Finals.
Would add more onto the following picks if I have time later.
2. 1996 Hardaway
Huge offensive impact with a neutral / slightly positive defense, leading Magic to a great record without Shaq. Highly effective both as a #1 and #2 option and a great playoffs performer.
3. 1995? Pippen
One of the GOAT perimeter defenders, anchoring a -4 defense without any other notable defensive players along with great rebounding and passing for his position. Choosing 1995 is kind of a cop out though since I save myself the trouble of splitting the defensive impact among Jordan, Pippen and Rodman/Grant...
theonlyclutch's AT FGA-limited team - The Malevolent Eight
PG: 2008 Chauncey Billups/ 2013 Kyle Lowry SG: 2005 Manu Ginobili/2012 James Harden SF: 1982 Julius Erving PF: 2013 Matt Bonner/ 2010 Amir Johnson C: 1977 Kareem Abdul Jabaar
I apologize for baling out early in the project, but i'd like to cast my final Vote for 75 Mcadoo.
34.5 ppg on 56.9 ts% with 14.1 RPG. 25.8 PER which is a pretty typical superstar level PER. I know some people don't give a lot respect to that era of basketball but i don't hear anyone taking away from Kareem's scoring so we shouldn't do that for Mcadoo. His 75 season is one of the best scoring seasons of that decade. I understand concerns about his defense as a big man and his lack of passing skills, but i think his combo of efficient scoring and rebounding easily warrants a top 40 peak, i was thinking morel like top 35. I don't think he was much worse of at all than Harden who went in 7 spots ago. Arguably should be ahead of Baylor too since Baylor never approached that level of scoring efficiency.
Ballot 1: 75 Mcadoo
Eh this is sort of on short notice, don't have the time to really build an argument for or think much about my last 2 ballots but i'll go with:
Ballot 2: 92 Drexler Ballot 3: 15 Russell Westbrook
For the final thread of this project, it looks like a comfortable victory for Bob McAdoo. Thru post #16:
Bob McAdoo - 14 Clyde Drexler - 7 Connie Hawkins - 5 Penny Hardaway - 5 Scottie Pippen - 4 Kevin Love - 4 Bernard King - 3 Nate Thurmond - 3 Rick Barry - 2 Elton Brand - 2 Jason Kidd - 2 Isiah Thomas - 1 George Gervin - 1 Russell Westbrook - 1
Thank you to all who participated, especially those who stuck with it to the end. Cheers.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
