How Many Players have a Case for GOAT Peak?

[Daddy 801]

MJ, Shaq, LeBron.

I wasn't alive during the old school guys like Wilt and Oscar so it's hard to say. Magic and Bird were good but MJ and Bron are both better in my opinion. To be fair I was young during their peaks so that could be distorting my perception of them. Shaq is a freak of nature and would be just dominating the hell out of the league right now if he we around.

[Jedi32]

Seriously? Jordan doesn't have a case but Magic does?

I'm sure he does but these are the 3 guys I would go with.

What separates Magic from MJ?

Just feel like offensively magic could control the games in more ways than Jordan. Jordan has the edge in defense magic wasn't as bad defensively as some here have claimed.

[Warspite]

DrJ and Larry Bird are the obvious players that are missing. 76 DrJ and 86 Bird were 2 of the best players to ever play the game.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

How is 01-03 Duncan not here but "peak" Shaq is seen as way over him given those years happened right in the midst of Shaqs best years? In 2003 as well he destroyed LA right on the Staples Center court with a 37pt 16reb performance to end their 3peat.

In 2001 despite playing with a awful squad he led SA to more regular season wins than peak Shaq did that year. And as far as I'm concerned in the playoffs that year Shaq had a phenomenal series but Duncan had to carry SA statistically in every facet despite losing every game because Kobe was the GOAT 2nd option on a title team.

From 2001-02 on which is the 3rd year of peak Shaq...... Duncan was simply the better player overall. He out rebounded and outscored Shaq by epic proportions in the 2002 playoffs.

I'm not even sold on 2000 Shaq leading LA past the Spurs that year if Duncan hadn't gotten injured given how Webber and Wallace ran roughshod over LA in the playoffs that year and nearly eliminated them.

[Timmaytime]

Kareem
Lebron
MJ
Shaq
Wilt

Maaaaybe Hakeem

[MyUniBroDavis]

I'm sure he does but these are the 3 guys I would go with.

What separates Magic from MJ?

Nothing, obviously.

Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan

tbh I couldn't tell if u were joking or not since u seem so serious lol

[Quotatious]

I'm pretty accepting, so there's a pretty long list of guys I'd understand someone having down(10-15 guys), but my personal list of guys I debate on:

Jordan
Lebron
KG
KAJ

It's interesting that you mentioned KG - I know you rely more on +/- stats, while I rely more on box-score stats, but according to my box-score derived formula, KG's peak is near GOAT level, too (or at least near the top since 1977-78 season, because there isn't enough statistical data available prior to '77-'78 season, for me calculate those ratings).

Obviously conventional wisdom and more traditional thinkers wouldn't have Garnett nearly as high, but KG is generally a statistical monster, both in terms of plus/minus and box-score stats, plus he has great intangibles and durability.

[Timmaytime]

I'm pretty accepting, so there's a pretty long list of guys I'd understand someone having down(10-15 guys), but my personal list of guys I debate on:

Jordan
Lebron
KG
KAJ

It's interesting that you mentioned KG - I know you rely more on +/- stats, while I rely more on box-score stats, but according to my box-score derived formula, KG's peak is near GOAT level, too (or at least near the top since 1977-78 season, because there isn't enough statistical data available prior to '77-'78 season, for me calculate those ratings).

Obviously conventional wisdom and more traditional thinkers wouldn't have Garnett nearly as high, but KG is generally a statistical monster, both in terms of plus/minus and box-score stats, plus he has great intangibles and durability.

Could you maybe elaborate on your formula? I'm a big KG supporter but I just can't put him in the same tier at the other three guys mentioned.

He seems to be lacking offensive efficiency (only 55% TS) and his BPM/VORP numbers aren't at the same level (although still amazing). I will say he is an absolute stat-sheet stuffer and he probably had the most defensive impact out of any of those guys, although Kareem is probably right up there with him.

edit* the only guys ever to have a season with >20 AST%, >20 TRB%, > 2 STL% and > 4 BLK% are 2004 KG and 2015 Demarcus Cousins. I found that interesting.

[eminence]

I'm pretty accepting, so there's a pretty long list of guys I'd understand someone having down(10-15 guys), but my personal list of guys I debate on:

Jordan
Lebron
KG
KAJ

It's interesting that you mentioned KG - I know you rely more on +/- stats, while I rely more on box-score stats, but according to my box-score derived formula, KG's peak is near GOAT level, too (or at least near the top since 1977-78 season, because there isn't enough statistical data available prior to '77-'78 season, for me calculate those ratings).

Obviously conventional wisdom and more traditional thinkers wouldn't have Garnett nearly as high, but KG is generally a statistical monster, both in terms of plus/minus and box-score stats, plus he has great intangibles and durability.

Oh yeah, KG's pretty darn good. Would like to add that I occasionally include Hakeem/Robinson/Duncan in my internal debates as well. (Currently trying to come up with numerical values for my peak rankings going back to the introduction of the 3pt line, and Lebron/KG/Jordan/Hakeem/Duncan/Drob are the guys that keep winding up in that very top tier). Shaq/Curry right after that.

Lebron is usually the guy I wind up going with though. As good of offensive player as pretty much anyone, and probably the only one of the very top tier offensive players also capable of being a defensive anchor as well (albeit not an elite one in the Russell mold).

[Tinseltown]

How is 01-03 Duncan not here but "peak" Shaq is seen as way over him given those years happened right in the midst of Shaqs best years? In 2003 as well he destroyed LA right on the Staples Center court with a 37pt 16reb performance to end their 3peat.

In 2001 despite playing with a awful squad he led SA to more regular season wins than peak Shaq did that year. And as far as I'm concerned in the playoffs that year Shaq had a phenomenal series but Duncan had to carry SA statistically in every facet despite losing every game because Kobe was the GOAT 2nd option on a title team.

From 2001-02 on which is the 3rd year of peak Shaq...... Duncan was simply the better player overall. He out rebounded and outscored Shaq by epic proportions in the 2002 playoffs.

I'm not even sold on 2000 Shaq leading LA past the Spurs that year if Duncan hadn't gotten injured given how Webber and Wallace ran roughshod over LA in the playoffs that year and nearly eliminated them.

Peak Shaq is 2000 or 2001. Shaq and Duncan met in the 2001 playoffs and Shaq was clearly the better player. It was just utter dominance.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105250LAL.html

If you're talking about 2002 or 2003 then it's not peak Shaq.

[mischievous]

How is 01-03 Duncan not here but "peak" Shaq is seen as way over him given those years happened right in the midst of Shaqs best years? In 2003 as well he destroyed LA right on the Staples Center court with a 37pt 16reb performance to end their 3peat.

In 2001 despite playing with a awful squad he led SA to more regular season wins than peak Shaq did that year. And as far as I'm concerned in the playoffs that year Shaq had a phenomenal series but Duncan had to carry SA statistically in every facet despite losing every game because Kobe was the GOAT 2nd option on a title team.

From 2001-02 on which is the 3rd year of peak Shaq...... Duncan was simply the better player overall. He out rebounded and outscored Shaq by epic proportions in the 2002 playoffs.

I'm not even sold on 2000 Shaq leading LA past the Spurs that year if Duncan hadn't gotten injured given how Webber and Wallace ran roughshod over LA in the playoffs that year and nearly eliminated them.

Peak Shaq is 2000 or 2001. Shaq and Duncan met in the 2001 playoffs and Shaq was clearly the better player. It was just utter dominance.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105250LAL.html

If you're talking about 2002 or 2003 then it's not peak Shaq.

Yeah Shaq and Duncan's peak didn't really happen quite at the same time. Now, i do agree that Shaq was clearly better at his peak, but itt's closer than people realize.