Better offensive player: Kawhi or PG13?

Post #1 » by **GeorgeMarcus** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:50 am

Both guys fit the mold of "3 and D" superstar SF's, prompting regular comparisons between the two. A sound majority prefers Kawhi (by a small margin) due to his ridiculous defensive capabilities- but how do they match up on the offensive end? Who would you rather take as your team's #1 scoring option?

RCM88x · Post #2 » by **RCM88x** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:33 am

I'd pick PG13 4 times out of 5. I know he can be very good with a poor supporting cast and team situation. However, I don't know that about Kawhi. Just to many question marks around him and if he can be productive with a poor supporting cast and average team situation.

picc · Post #3 » by **picc** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:56 am

I think George is the better offensive player. He has the higher ceiling for sure, while I know Kawhi is more consistent. I do believe Pop and the Spurs system helps him in that department however, and I think PG would improve even further under them.

Dr Spaceman · Post #4 » by **Dr Spaceman** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:57 am

Paul George lights it up for the first two months, then falls into a slump, then finds a hot streak with his jumper again in the playoffs. Kind of a tale of two halves for him.

I don't know. He can score in bunches, but he doesn't have the jumper or post skill of Kawhi. And Indiana actually didn't lose any ground offensively when he was hurt and George Hill took the reigns. He's never had much talent to work with, by the results aren't good either. I don't like his handles or his ability to get to the cup, and I don't think he's particularly effective when his jumper is off.

I think both guys are clearly better defensively than offensively, but I'd take Kawhi as an offensive player and overall.

MrSashimiLover · Post #5 » by **MrSashimiLover** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:26 am

I think PG13 has the physical tools to be a more daunting offensive force, but Kawhi somehow manages to be a more efficient offensive player under the Spurs' system. If you were ask to pick one of them to be the one taking the last shot for my team, I would lean toward PG as he, to me, is more creative offensively. However, due to potential chemstry and playing issues, I'm not certain if the Spurs offense would really be better off if they could switch Kawhi with PG13.

mischievous · Post #6 » by **mischievous** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:32 am

I think it's close but clearly Kawhi. The Spurs system helps Kawhi, but i doubt it is worth the 6 ts% difference between the 2 on a similar scoring volume.

Gus Fring · Post #7 » by **Gus Fring** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:19 pm

PG's average playmaking skills don't make up for the advantage in efficiency Kawhi has in most aspects of scoring.

HeartBreakKid · Post #8 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:20 pm

Compare Leonard's iso game to George's iso game, and its' really not a contest, Leonard is clearly a better scorer than George. George is just more of a gunner, which can lead to him having big memorable games, but the guy is inconsistent as hell, and has been since he entered the league.

Leonard also kills George and just about everyone in the league at moving without the ball, only players like JJ Reddick are better in that regards.

George is better in transition and he's a more willing passer (not that big of an advantage because Leonard is supposed to be a finisher and he's quite good at it).

freewhitemoon · Post #9 » by **freewhitemoon** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:54 pm

RCM88x wrote:I'd pick PG13 4 times out of 5. I know he can be very good with a poor supporting cast and team situation. However, I don't know that about Kawhi. Just to many question marks around him and if he can be productive with a poor supporting cast and average team situation.

How do we know he can be good with a poor supporting cast? They were only the 7th seed last year and still had decent players. The year when they stretched Miami to 7 it was Roy Hibbert and David West abusing the crap out of Bosh

RCM88x · Post #10 » by **RCM88x** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:08 pm

freewhitemoon wrote:
RCM88x wrote:I'd pick PG13 4 times out of 5. I know he can be very good with a poor supporting cast and team situation. However, I don't know that about Kawhi. Just to many question marks around him and if he can be productive with a poor supporting cast and average team situation.

How do we know he can be good with a poor supporting cast? They were only the 7th seed last year and still had decent players. The year when they stretched Miami to 7 it was Roy Hibbert and David West abusing the crap out of Bosh

His supporting cast last year probably wouldn't have won more than 30 games without him, I'd say that pretty poor.

In 2015, basically with the same team that had the best record in the NBA and went to B2B conference finals, his supporting cast won 38 games and missed the playoffs completely.

In comparison, Kawhi probably had the best or 2nd best supporting cast in the league, and probably a team that would have still won 50 games without him.

Post #11 » by **tsherkin** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:15 pm

I'd take Kawhi here, but I'd be cautious about projecting a HUGE gap. Kawhi has a few luxuries which do influence his specific numbers, but he is also a MUCH better off-ball player, and has better post and mid-range game.

George used to be literally a "transition and 3-pointers" player. He has improved his handles noticeably, and his passing has come along with those a little bit as well. He's still young-ish, and he's not without room to improve even further, but right now, he's an okay volume shooter from 3 with a developing floor game who goes staggeringly cold for long stretches and that sort of ruins things for me looking at him relative to Kawhi. George is good, this is not in doubt. I watched him carve up my Raptors like a roast, for example, which was actually kind of nice to see in a way because I was hoping that he'd develop some handles when I saw him in his first big season a couple of years back before the injury. He's made strides.

I'd take Kawhi ahead of him, but I'll also be watching to see how the upcoming season plays out, because it's not as large a gap as, say, raw efficiency might make it seem.

HeartBreakKid · Post #12 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:16 pm

RCM88x wrote:
freewhitemoon wrote:
RCM88x wrote:I'd pick PG13 4 times out of 5. I know he can be very good with a poor supporting cast and team situation. However, I don't know that about Kawhi. Just to many question marks around him and if he can be productive with a poor supporting cast and average team situation.

How do we know he can be good with a poor supporting cast? They were only the 7th seed last year and still had decent players. The year when they stretched Miami to 7 it was Roy Hibbert and David West abusing the crap out of Bosh

His supporting cast last year probably wouldn't have won more than 30 games without him, I'd say that pretty poor.

In 2015, basically with the same team that had the best record in the NBA and went to B2B conference finals, his supporting cast won 38 games and missed the playoffs completely.

In comparison, Kawhi probably had the best or 2nd best supporting cast in the league, and probably a team that would have still won 50 games without him.

You think Kawhi Leonard is incapable of taking a 30 win team to an 8th or 7th seed(or a unit of upstarts)? You do realize that you're inferring he's not a franchise player right?

The 7th and 8th seeds are typically just one man bands, there's nothing exceptional about a top ten player taking a bad team to the 7th or 8th seed in the NBA, that is what they are essentially supposed to do. Damian Lillard, who is not near a top ten player got a higher seed with a cast that was expected to bottom out the entire league.

There are hardly any franchise players who have not done what Paul George did, there's nothing special about that. The Pacers could also at least play one side of the ball, in defense, which George contributed to a lot, but the Pacers would likely have been an average defensive team at the very least without George. The 3rd best defense in the league getting a late playoff spot isn't that crazy as long as they have someone who can put the ball in the basket for them.

KD35Brah · Post #13 » by **KD35Brah** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:20 pm

RCM88x wrote:
freewhitemoon wrote:
RCM88x wrote:I'd pick PG13 4 times out of 5. I know he can be very good with a poor supporting cast and team situation. However, I don't know that about Kawhi. Just to many question marks around him and if he can be productive with a poor supporting cast and average team situation.

How do we know he can be good with a poor supporting cast? They were only the 7th seed last year and still had decent players. The year when they stretched Miami to 7 it was Roy Hibbert and David West abusing the crap out of Bosh

His supporting cast last year probably wouldn't have won more than 30 games without him, I'd say that pretty poor.

In 2015, basically with the same team that had the best record in the NBA and went to B2B conference finals, his supporting cast won 38 games and missed the playoffs completely.

In comparison, Kawhi probably had the best or 2nd best supporting cast in the league, and probably a team that would have still won 50 games without him.

They won 38 games in 2015 with PG missing the entire year, George Hill missing 39 games, and solomon Hill playing the most minutes on the team.

Post #14 » by **tsherkin** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:39 pm

KD35Brah wrote:They won 38 games in 2015 with PG missing the entire year, George Hill missing 39 games, and solomon Hill playing the most minutes on the team.

Yeah but they had Roy Hibbert at the time, which they did not in 2016, and that changed their defensive composition.

KD35Brah · Post #15 » by **KD35Brah** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:58 pm

tsherkin wrote:
KD35Brah wrote:They won 38 games in 2015 with PG missing the entire year, George Hill missing 39 games, and solomon Hill playing the most minutes on the team.

Yeah but they had Roy Hibbert at the time, which they did not in 2016, and that changed their defensive composition.

It wasn't like he was good that year anyway.

Mahimi had a better year this past season than Hibbert did in 2015.

RCM88x · Post #16 » by **RCM88x** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:05 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
RCM88x wrote:
freewhitemoon wrote:
How do we know he can be good with a poor supporting cast? They were only the 7th seed last year and still had decent players. The year when they stretched Miami to 7 it was Roy Hibbert and David West abusing the crap out of Bosh

His supporting cast last year probably wouldn't have won more than 30 games without him, I'd say that pretty poor.

In 2015, basically with the same team that had the best record in the NBA and went to B2B conference finals, his supporting cast won 38 games and missed the playoffs completely.

In comparison, Kawhi probably had the best or 2nd best supporting cast in the league, and probably a team that would have still won 50 games without him.

You think Kawhi Leonard is incapable of taking a 30 win team to an 8th or 7th seed(or a unit of upstarts)? You do realize that you're inferring he's not a franchise player right?

The 7th and 8th seeds are typically just one man bands, there's nothing exceptional about a top ten player taking a bad team to the 7th or 8th seed in the NBA, that is what they are essentially supposed to do. Damian Lillard, who is not near a top ten player got a higher seed with a cast that was expected to bottom out the entire league.

There are hardly any franchise players who have not done what Paul George did, there's nothing special about that. The Pacers could also at least play one side of the ball, in defense, which George contributed to a lot, but the Pacers would likely have been an average defensive team at the very least without George. The 3rd best defense in the league getting a late playoff spot isn't that crazy as long as they have someone who can put the ball in the basket for them.

Lillard led the Blazers to 1 less win, and I'd hardly say that he had a worst supporting cast. Possibly going into the season, but at years end I'd say they were essentially equivalent.

I just have doubts that Kawhi could lead a bad team to 45+ wins, he's never been on a bad team or been asked to carry a team.

This might be the first season you could argue that, but he still has a far better supporting cast that PG.

Kawhi has better numbers and is more efficient. I wouldn't argue with that.

But I believe PG is the better pure offensive player when you consider supporting cast and team situation.

Post #17 » by **tsherkin** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:15 pm

KD35Brah wrote:Mahimi had a better year this past season than Hibbert did in 2015.

On offense, maybe, but not as a defensive presence.

KD35Brah · Post #18 » by **KD35Brah** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:20 pm

tsherkin wrote:
KD35Brah wrote:Mahimi had a better year this past season than Hibbert did in 2015.

On offense, maybe, but not as a defensive presence.

Nothing(from what i've seen) supports 2015 Hibbert having a better defensive year than Mahimi did in 2016.

freewhitemoon · Post #19 » by **freewhitemoon** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:23 pm

tsherkin wrote:
KD35Brah wrote:Mahimi had a better year this past season than Hibbert did in 2015.

On offense, maybe, but not as a defensive presence.

Defensive metrics rated Mahinmi very highly, I think he got some all defense votes

Post #20 » by **tsherkin** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:38 pm

KD35Brah wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
KD35Brah wrote:Mahimi had a better year this past season than Hibbert did in 2015.

On offense, maybe, but not as a defensive presence.

Nothing(from what i've seen) supports 2015 Hibbert having a better defensive year than Mahimi did in 2016.

I'd care more, but he played 15 fewer games, started only one and was playing under 19 mpg, so those defensive metrics are suspect at best.

Hibbert started 76 games at over 25 mpg, which is a much more significant tale than what Ian was doing that season...

Better offensive player?