2016/17 Player of the Year discussion thread

[Dr Spaceman]

What if you put a lot of stock in +/- stats? He has Giannis beat pretty easily in terms of on/off and RPM.

You're more than welcome to put a ton of stock into that. I'd just point out that both guys are essentially leading .500 teams, One because a team is young and inconsistent and injury-riddled, and One because it seems like the group of veterans couldn't be arsed to try during the RS and spent most of their time In-fighting. And I think it's pretty obvious Butler had a serious role in this chemistry problem.

I've gone through this before but after the blowup over the chemistry of Wade/Butler vs everyone else where they said they were freezing out the rest of the team Jimmy averaged an extra 2 assists a night and Chicago went 15-12 and made the playoffs just barely. I'd understand holding it against him if it didn't seem like he fixed the issues his team had with him but he did or at least it seems like he did. Plus if they're winning in the playoffs without HCA behind him (with assistance from RoLo and Rondo) how much does it really matter?

I generally don't trust when it seems like these teams would be absolutely helpless without their star. If you really think the Bulls less Butler are as bad as the Sixers, I guess that's one thing, but I'll just say that a meaningful difference in RAPM doesn't actually necessarily signifiy a meaningful difference in what the guys are bringing to their team.

Yeah they wouldn't be helpless without him but the same can be said for the Bucks and Giannis. I can say for a fact Jimmy's team performance oushined Giannis' though regardless of the supporting cast. Jimmy's team played at a +3.3 level with him on the court and Giannis' at a +0.9 level and I find it hard to argue either supporting cast was that different. Jabari/Khris taken as a whole are better than Jimmy's 2nd option (Wade), Monroe is a beast, RoLo is also a beast, and no one else on either roster is even notable. I mean if Khris didn't get back fast the Bucks aren't in the playoffs even with a healthy Jabari. IMO the difference in the teams' performance comes in their defense. Giannis is a very good defender but he hasn't learned to be great yet. Jimmy on the other hand is truly an elite defensive G. Offensively they're about even but defense really shifts the scales.

I disagree, actually I don't think Butler is that close to Giannis. Butler's value comes from his ability as a man defender, but his effort has seriously waned since his peak in 2014 with the larger offensive role and even then his man defense was not as valuable as Giannis' rim protection, turnover-forcing in the passing lane, and ability to switch onto guards. Giannis just has more universal utility, even if he's not yet a finished product on that end.

[E-Balla]

You're more than welcome to put a ton of stock into that. I'd just point out that both guys are essentially leading .500 teams, One because a team is young and inconsistent and injury-riddled, and One because it seems like the group of veterans couldn't be arsed to try during the RS and spent most of their time In-fighting. And I think it's pretty obvious Butler had a serious role in this chemistry problem.

I've gone through this before but after the blowup over the chemistry of Wade/Butler vs everyone else where they said they were freezing out the rest of the team Jimmy averaged an extra 2 assists a night and Chicago went 15-12 and made the playoffs just barely. I'd understand holding it against him if it didn't seem like he fixed the issues his team had with him but he did or at least it seems like he did. Plus if they're winning in the playoffs without HCA behind him (with assistance from RoLo and Rondo) how much does it really matter?

I generally don't trust when it seems like these teams would be absolutely helpless without their star. If you really think the Bulls less Butler are as bad as the Sixers, I guess that's one thing, but I'll just say that a meaningful difference in RAPM doesn't actually necessarily signifiy a meaningful difference in what the guys are bringing to their team.

Yeah they wouldn't be helpless without him but the same can be said for the Bucks and Giannis. I can say for a fact Jimmy's team performance oushined Giannis' though regardless of the supporting cast. Jimmy's team played at a +3.3 level with him on the court and Giannis' at a +0.9 level and I find it hard to argue either supporting cast was that different. Jabari/Khris taken as a whole are better than Jimmy's 2nd option (Wade), Monroe is a beast, RoLo is also a beast, and no one else on either roster is even notable. I mean if Khris didn't get back fast the Bucks aren't in the playoffs even with a healthy Jabari. IMO the difference in the teams' performance comes in their defense. Giannis is a very good defender but he hasn't learned to be great yet. Jimmy on the other hand is truly an elite defensive G. Offensively they're about even but defense really shifts the scales.

I disagree, actually I don't think Butler is that close to Giannis. Butler's value comes from his ability as a man defender, but his effort has seriously waned since his peak in 2014 with the larger offensive role and even then his man defense was not as valuable as Giannis' rim protection, turnover-forcing in the passing lane, and ability to switch onto guards. Giannis just has more universal utility, even if he's not yet a finished product on that end.

Did you watch much of Chicago this year because his effort was completely back. And Giannis' rim protection is great but Jimmy is still a great help defender and still great off ball. Honestly if Giannis was really THAT good their defense would've been better. Its not like the supporting cast was back and the second Middleton came back their defense was on another level.

[Ballerhogger]

wtf is wrong with this guy?

Read on Twitter

Hes fading . Meanwhile stephen A smith is ahead of the pack over colin ... .. The debate shows are kinda espn dominated. Always have been.

[RSCD3_]

Kawhi sure is under the radar for scoring 29 PPG on 82.0 TS%. Understand that they dont have anyone to really stop him but we've seen dominant scorers in the first round fail to get these numbers frequently. The challenge will be the rockets likely and the warriors

[Prez]

I've gone through this before but after the blowup over the chemistry of Wade/Butler vs everyone else where they said they were freezing out the rest of the team Jimmy averaged an extra 2 assists a night and Chicago went 15-12 and made the playoffs just barely. I'd understand holding it against him if it didn't seem like he fixed the issues his team had with him but he did or at least it seems like he did. Plus if they're winning in the playoffs without HCA behind him (with assistance from RoLo and Rondo) how much does it really matter?


Yeah they wouldn't be helpless without him but the same can be said for the Bucks and Giannis. I can say for a fact Jimmy's team performance oushined Giannis' though regardless of the supporting cast. Jimmy's team played at a +3.3 level with him on the court and Giannis' at a +0.9 level and I find it hard to argue either supporting cast was that different. Jabari/Khris taken as a whole are better than Jimmy's 2nd option (Wade), Monroe is a beast, RoLo is also a beast, and no one else on either roster is even notable. I mean if Khris didn't get back fast the Bucks aren't in the playoffs even with a healthy Jabari. IMO the difference in the teams' performance comes in their defense. Giannis is a very good defender but he hasn't learned to be great yet. Jimmy on the other hand is truly an elite defensive G. Offensively they're about even but defense really shifts the scales.

I disagree, actually I don't think Butler is that close to Giannis. Butler's value comes from his ability as a man defender, but his effort has seriously waned since his peak in 2014 with the larger offensive role and even then his man defense was not as valuable as Giannis' rim protection, turnover-forcing in the passing lane, and ability to switch onto guards. Giannis just has more universal utility, even if he's not yet a finished product on that end.

Did you watch much of Chicago this year because his effort was completely back. And Giannis' rim protection is great but Jimmy is still a great help defender and still great off ball. Honestly if Giannis was really THAT good their defense would've been better. Its not like the supporting cast was back and the second Middleton came back their defense was on another level.

Our team defense is a really flawed way to evaluate defensive ability on our roster. We play a gimmicky overaggressive and usually unnecessary trapping defense that is regularly exposed against ball movement and spacing heavy offenses, and is built to shut down and fluster PnR spamming, iso heavy chokers like the Raptors. Half the time it's entirely irrelevant how good a defender someone actually is on the Bucks, our scheme is borderline broken against well coached teams.

And I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the last sentence, are you saying the defense was or wasn't on another level with Middleton?

[E-Balla]

I disagree, actually I don't think Butler is that close to Giannis. Butler's value comes from his ability as a man defender, but his effort has seriously waned since his peak in 2014 with the larger offensive role and even then his man defense was not as valuable as Giannis' rim protection, turnover-forcing in the passing lane, and ability to switch onto guards. Giannis just has more universal utility, even if he's not yet a finished product on that end.

Did you watch much of Chicago this year because his effort was completely back. And Giannis' rim protection is great but Jimmy is still a great help defender and still great off ball. Honestly if Giannis was really THAT good their defense would've been better. Its not like the supporting cast was back and the second Middleton came back their defense was on another level.

Our team defense is a really flawed way to evaluate defensive ability on our roster. We play a gimmicky overaggressive and usually unnecessary trapping defense that is regularly exposed against ball movement and spacing heavy offenses, and is built to shut down and fluster PnR spamming, iso heavy chokers like the Raptors. Half the time it's entirely irrelevant how good a defender someone actually is on the Bucks, our scheme is borderline broken against well coached teams.

And I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the last sentence, are you saying the defense was or wasn't on another level with Middleton?

Back is a bad autocorrect of bad. I was saying his defensive support wasn't bad and once Khris came back the defense was great which makes Khris (who's more of a one on one guy like Jimmy is) look way more impactful on the success of the Bucks defense. I know they have an odd defensive style but that's part of why Giannis' versatility is shown off so often and people think he's such an elite defender. He's good, real good, but I dotn think he's the best defender on his team and the best defender on that team plays much more like Jimmy than Giannis.

[Prez]

Did you watch much of Chicago this year because his effort was completely back. And Giannis' rim protection is great but Jimmy is still a great help defender and still great off ball. Honestly if Giannis was really THAT good their defense would've been better. Its not like the supporting cast was back and the second Middleton came back their defense was on another level.

Our team defense is a really flawed way to evaluate defensive ability on our roster. We play a gimmicky overaggressive and usually unnecessary trapping defense that is regularly exposed against ball movement and spacing heavy offenses, and is built to shut down and fluster PnR spamming, iso heavy chokers like the Raptors. Half the time it's entirely irrelevant how good a defender someone actually is on the Bucks, our scheme is borderline broken against well coached teams.

And I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the last sentence, are you saying the defense was or wasn't on another level with Middleton?

Back is a bad autocorrect of bad. I was saying his defensive support wasn't bad and once Khris came back the defense was great which makes Khris (who's more of a one on one guy like Jimmy is) look way more impactful on the success of the Bucks defense. I know they have an odd defensive style but that's part of why Giannis' versatility is shown off so often and people think he's such an elite defender. He's good, real good, but I dotn think he's the best defender on his team and the best defender on that team plays much more like Jimmy than Giannis.

The difference in team defense before and after Mids' return on the whole was almost negligible, 106.4 DRTG before his return vs 106.5 DRTG since. And our two best defensive months were in Nov-Dec without Mids. The biggest difference maker upon his return was clutch play, where we were outstanding closing out games whereas we were terrible earlier in the season.

I'm not arguing Giannis is some out of this world defender or that Mids isn't great (he's really good), just saying it's really difficult to use our team defensive success or lack thereof to paint any kind of meaningful picture about how good these guys are defensively. I think when both are utilized correctly scheme-wise, Giannis is right there with Butler as a defender.

[E-Balla]

Our team defense is a really flawed way to evaluate defensive ability on our roster. We play a gimmicky overaggressive and usually unnecessary trapping defense that is regularly exposed against ball movement and spacing heavy offenses, and is built to shut down and fluster PnR spamming, iso heavy chokers like the Raptors. Half the time it's entirely irrelevant how good a defender someone actually is on the Bucks, our scheme is borderline broken against well coached teams.

And I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the last sentence, are you saying the defense was or wasn't on another level with Middleton?

Back is a bad autocorrect of bad. I was saying his defensive support wasn't bad and once Khris came back the defense was great which makes Khris (who's more of a one on one guy like Jimmy is) look way more impactful on the success of the Bucks defense. I know they have an odd defensive style but that's part of why Giannis' versatility is shown off so often and people think he's such an elite defender. He's good, real good, but I dotn think he's the best defender on his team and the best defender on that team plays much more like Jimmy than Giannis.

The difference in team defense before and after Mids' return on the whole was almost negligible, 106.4 DRTG before his return vs 106.5 DRTG since. And our two best defensive months were in Nov-Dec without Mids. The biggest difference maker upon his return was clutch play, where we were outstanding closing out games whereas we were terrible earlier in the season.

I'm not arguing Giannis is some out of this world defender or that Mids isn't great (he's really good), just saying it's really difficult to use our team defensive success or lack thereof to paint any kind of meaningful picture about how good these guys are defensively. I think when both are utilized correctly scheme-wise, Giannis is right there with Butler as a defender.

I'll agree to disagree on this one. Personally I feel in their current roles Jimmy is better but I definitely understand the argument that Giannis in a better role can outperform Jimmy defensively.

[Krodis]

I mean, the Bulls were .500, made the playoffs on a tiebreaker, and wouldn't have even made it if Dion Waiters (?!) didn't get injured. Now obviously that doesn't mean Butler wasn't great, but he obviously didn't lift his team to great heights in the regular season so I'd need to see some pretty compelling evidence to make me consider him in the Top 5, and I haven't seen that.

[therealbig3]

I find it interesting that team record is being used to disqualify Butler, when some of the same people have 05 Garnett as the best player in the game lol.

Am I comparing Butler to Garnett? Of course not. But clearly, an elite player can be on a bad team. Pointing to the Bulls being bad is just not a very convincing argument to me, when everything that tries to look at Butler's individual impact says that he was elite.

And I realize I'm saying this in the midst of a terrible game by Butler.

[HeartBreakKid]

The Bulls are taking some awful shots in the 4th quarter. This lack of passing is not going to work against a team with the Celtics perimeter defense.

[clyde21]

Unbelievable what happens when you actually let your teammates play ball. OKC looking good.

[bondom34]

lol

[ceiling raiser]

The game isn't over yet, but I think it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg thing. Does feeding/trusting players more early and often (to the point of forcing the issue) allow them to create more often? Or does the strategy just happen to work when players are making shots (and of course, role players shoot better at home)?

Goes both ways IMO.

[E-Balla]

The game isn't over yet, but I think it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg thing. Does feeding/trusting players more early and often (to the point of forcing the issue) allow them to create more often? Or does the strategy just happen to work when players are making shots (and of course, role players shoot better at home)?

Goes both ways IMO.

The way I feel about it is he let them do them in the first half last game too and it wasn't until they stopped making shots and Houston came close (behind Lou and EG) that he started shooting a lot. I get the idea that he should go back to passing mode after getting the game back in check but I don't blame him for not trusting those guys. Usually with guys seen as ballhogs (Kobe, Melo, Westbrook come to mind) they give the ball up when the team is doing well. I mean Russ was on a good team just last year and he moved the ball well.

[ceiling raiser]

The game isn't over yet, but I think it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg thing. Does feeding/trusting players more early and often (to the point of forcing the issue) allow them to create more often? Or does the strategy just happen to work when players are making shots (and of course, role players shoot better at home)?

Goes both ways IMO.

The way I feel about it is he let them do them in the first half last game too and it wasn't until they stopped making shots and Houston came close (behind Lou and EG) that he started shooting a lot. I get the idea that he should go back to passing mode after getting the game back in check but I don't blame him for not trusting those guys. Usually with guys seen as ballhogs (Kobe, Melo, Westbrook come to mind) they give the ball up when the team is doing well. I mean Russ was on a good team just last year and he moved the ball well.

Fair point.

Not sure how I feel about this game specifically, but I do agree in general that these situations are more dynamic than static. Moving parts, situations change, so so should strategy/tactics.

[GSP]

Unbelievable what happens when you actually let your teammates play ball. OKC looking good.

Translation: when Okc shooters are hitting their wide open shots

[kayess]

"Russell Westbrook is an amazing player", "he should have made better decisions that 4th quarter", "he was not the reason they lost", and "he could have played better" are all not mutually exclusive. Don't let the agenda of biased posters bring you down to their level of discussion.

Sure, you can't blame them if they don't trust their teammates in some games when they're not making shots - but is that really the best long-term strategy? It'd vary on the players, team environment, etc... But a lot of what we know about those situations is that the choice to continue shooting is not due to some decision to optimize winning chances, but a stylistic choice, e.g., "I would go 0-30 before going 0-10", driven by who they are at their cores. That's not necessarily a bad thing - but it's often implied that "it was what was best for the team", when that's not all that clear at all.

And please don't ever mention Melo in the same sentence as Kobe and GOATbrook again.

[E-Balla]

"Russell Westbrook is an amazing player", "he should have made better decisions that 4th quarter", "he was not the reason they lost", and "he could have played better" are all not mutually exclusive. Don't let the agenda of biased posters bring you down to their level of discussion.

Sure, you can't blame them if they don't trust their teammates in some games when they're not making shots - but is that really the best long-term strategy? It'd vary on the players, team environment, etc... But a lot of what we know about those situations is that the choice to continue shooting is not due to some decision to optimize winning chances, but a stylistic choice, e.g., "I would go 0-30 before going 0-10", driven by who they are at their cores. That's not necessarily a bad thing - but it's often implied that "it was what was best for the team", when that's not all that clear at all.

And please don't ever mention Melo in the same sentence as Kobe and GOATbrook again.

Everyone who's ever stepped on a court could make better decisions. Everyone who's ever stepped on a court ever could've played better. Quite frankly it's a dumb criticism.

[GSP]

Cp3........Jesus. Poor Ingles was getting destroyed on those pickandrolls lol

Also how underrated is George Hill? This dude can flatout ball and play the Pg position as well as anyone traditional sense. Hes played Cp3 very evenly for many on the time theyve shared the court but Cp3 has that extra level specially late in this series where he just pulls way ahead. George might be the most well rounded Pg after Cp3 honestly well Conley and Wall are in that discussion too