Is Russell Westbrook Having Better Season then Michael Jordan/LeBron James Ever Had?

[Styrian]

Well Oscar didn't average a triple double per 36 minutes he averaged 44.3 that year in the 62 season. Russell is averaging a triple double in 35.1 mpg. The pace was also faster back then which allowed for more rebounds, they took more shots per game.

But you are saying that Westbrook triple double averages are more impressive than Oscar's. It's true, I absolutely agree with you. What does it mean though?

RW is better rebounder than Oscar, but that doesn't make him better player.

Oscar is much more efficient scorer. Relative to league Westbrook is below average in TS%, while Oscar is close to Curry. Oscar led superior offenses with similar supporting cast. Oscar is one of the most inteligent player ever. He's more complete player and I can say that he's also better shooter.

They are much different players. It's not laughable to think that Westbrook is better than Oscar. But you need to make stronger arguments than just comparing their raw or PER36 numbers. I personally don't think Westbrook is good enough offensively to compete and his defense isn't even above average. Remember, we are comparing him to arguably GOAT offensive player (Magic caliber of offensive anchor).

What your basis that his defense isn't even above average. This is one of his best defensive years. If not his best. OKC is far superior defensively when he is playing than when he isn't in the game.

That just means Adams is much better defender than Kanter, he's definitely been below average defender this season. He neglects defense a lot to get better rebounding position.

[wallsfamily]

Statistically yes. We will see what team impact is like the whole year. I think both Jordan and Lebron will tell you that they like having help better.

[richboy]

But you are saying that Westbrook triple double averages are more impressive than Oscar's. It's true, I absolutely agree with you. What does it mean though?

RW is better rebounder than Oscar, but that doesn't make him better player.

Oscar is much more efficient scorer. Relative to league Westbrook is below average in TS%, while Oscar is close to Curry. Oscar led superior offenses with similar supporting cast. Oscar is one of the most inteligent player ever. He's more complete player and I can say that he's also better shooter.

They are much different players. It's not laughable to think that Westbrook is better than Oscar. But you need to make stronger arguments than just comparing their raw or PER36 numbers. I personally don't think Westbrook is good enough offensively to compete and his defense isn't even above average. Remember, we are comparing him to arguably GOAT offensive player (Magic caliber of offensive anchor).

What your basis that his defense isn't even above average. This is one of his best defensive years. If not his best. OKC is far superior defensively when he is playing than when he isn't in the game.

That just means Adams is much better defender than Kanter, he's definitely been below average defender this season. He neglects defense a lot to get better rebounding position.

No it doesn't mean that. We could talk about all the varieties of defense and what variables impact defense. Including the fact that OKC is a far superior offensive team with Westbrook and usually making baskets and getting to the line makes your defense better. Still unless your ignoring many variables on what determines defense and just focusing on 1 of them not sure how you decided he not average on defense. You talk like rebounding isn't part of defense. When in reality defensive rebounding has the biggest statistical impact on defense. RW has a defensive rebound percentage almost equal to Anthony Davis and Karl Anthony Towns. 8 points above Lebron James. OKC is a top 5 team on the defensive glass when RW is playing. They are by far the worst defensive rebounding team in the league when he isn't in the game.

[Chicago76]

You talk like rebounding isn't part of defense. When in reality defensive rebounding has the biggest statistical impact on defense. RW has a defensive rebound percentage almost equal to Anthony Davis and Karl Anthony Towns. 8 points above Lebron James. OKC is a top 5 team on the defensive glass when RW is playing. They are by far the worst defensive rebounding team in the league when he isn't in the game.

I'm not disagreeing with Russell's impact defensively, either via his play on that end of the court or enabling the defense to get set through made FGs and FTs when he's on the court.

The question I do have is how you conclude that defensive rebounding having the biggest statistical impact on defense. At a team level, eFG% is by far the biggest influencer on team defensive ability. DRB rate isn't even close. Examples: three of the bottom six DRB teams last year (BOS, LAC and ATL) were among the top 6 Drtg teams. None of the top 11 Drtg teams conceded eFG below the top half of the league last year.

At an individual level, DRB can be even more distorted as it is a function of both defensive positioning strategy and strategies designed to transition from defense to offense most efficiently. There are all sorts of high DRB players who aren't particularly strong rebounders, many of whom have negative defensive impact. Why? Because they cannibalize other DRB opportunities for players

[Styrian]

What your basis that his defense isn't even above average. This is one of his best defensive years. If not his best. OKC is far superior defensively when he is playing than when he isn't in the game.

That just means Adams is much better defender than Kanter, he's definitely been below average defender this season. He neglects defense a lot to get better rebounding position.

No it doesn't mean that. We could talk about all the varieties of defense and what variables impact defense. Including the fact that OKC is a far superior offensive team with Westbrook and usually making baskets and getting to the line makes your defense better. Still unless your ignoring many variables on what determines defense and just focusing on 1 of them not sure how you decided he not average on defense. You talk like rebounding isn't part of defense. When in reality defensive rebounding has the biggest statistical impact on defense. RW has a defensive rebound percentage almost equal to Anthony Davis and Karl Anthony Towns. 8 points above Lebron James. OKC is a top 5 team on the defensive glass when RW is playing. They are by far the worst defensive rebounding team in the league when he isn't in the game.

His DRPM is -0.69 which is far more reliable and accurate stat for defense than on/off numbers. I'm not sure why many people point to on/off numbers to prove something about single player, it tells more about lineup performance not player.

[lilojmayo]

Statistically yes. We will see what team impact is like the whole year. I think both Jordan and Lebron will tell you that they like having help better.

Would you take Westbrook over the peaks of
Curry , durant , Wade , Tmac ?

[lilojmayo]

I am asking because i just checked Westbrook stats and it was 31/11/11 on -0.4% rTS, with 5.5 topg

Jordan's best statistically year was 33/8/8 on +7.7% rTS, with 3.6 topg
LeBron's best statistically year was 30/7/9 on +6.1% rTS, with 3.4 topg

Raw numbers is sort of a meh means of comparison, but if going to use it, let's at least be a bit more complete.
Let's also note that both Jordan and Lebron were better defensive players than present Westy. So.....no, he's not having a better season.

Yes but 30/10/10 over a season we thought would be impossible in the modern era. Especially for a 6'3 guard

[Mazter]

You are defined by your consistency. Not by your best or worst days. I'm not really getting this argument. First your just pulling stats. My bet is Westbrook assisted or hockey assisted on much of that. Unless your not watching games I would think everyone would see how bad OKC suddenly gets when Westbrook isn't in the game. The 3 guys you just mentioned have a 95 offensive rating when RW isn't in the game. Which shouldn't shock anyone since Dipo was just a starting player on a terrible team. Kanter was a starting player on a terrible team. Sabonis is just a rookie. Regardless if Kanter, Dipo, Sabonis could play like that nightly they would not Westbrook to do what he does. They can't because they aren't that good. Westbrook isn't that bad on your numbers.

First of all, let's just start by saying that the Thunder are not better of without Westbrook. They won't make the play offs without him. That being said, that was not the argument either. Second, we do not live in the stone ages anymore. There is so much data available nowadays, a player can't even fart on court without it popping up in some sort of stat somewhere. You don't have to see all the games to understand what actually happened. In contrary, the mind could even play tricks on you, as you are much bound to remember the highlights than the lowlights.

Now, about that bet, you lost. Westbrook had 0 secondary assists and 1 free throw assist. The 3 guys shot 9 from 15 on his passes, 8 from 10 without him. Meaning they scored at most 22 points from his passes and 26 without. And that is only through the 3 quarters Westbrook played in. They shot another 4-from-8 in the 4th. But don't worry, you can keep whatever it was you were betting on.

Now to get back to the matter at hand, what I meant to say is, somehow the narrative has become that Westbrook needs to score 40-10-10 for the team to win, because others can't score, can't rebound, can't pass, heck, you would almost believe they could hardly drible the ball without turning it over. My example was just to point out that in my opninion he doesn't need to have an inefficient 30-10-11 to have team succes. But a more efficient 25-6-9 for example could also do.

[Mazter]

What your basis that his defense isn't even above average. This is one of his best defensive years. If not his best. OKC is far superior defensively when he is playing than when he isn't in the game.

OKC is superior in defense when Oladipo is in the game (99 pts/48), not Westbrook (103 pts/48). Westbrook's luck is he just gets to play a lot with Oladipo on court.

Westbrook with Oladipo 100.2 pts/48
Westbrook without Oladipo 108.9 pts/48

[richboy]

You talk like rebounding isn't part of defense. When in reality defensive rebounding has the biggest statistical impact on defense. RW has a defensive rebound percentage almost equal to Anthony Davis and Karl Anthony Towns. 8 points above Lebron James. OKC is a top 5 team on the defensive glass when RW is playing. They are by far the worst defensive rebounding team in the league when he isn't in the game.

I'm not disagreeing with Russell's impact defensively, either via his play on that end of the court or enabling the defense to get set through made FGs and FTs when he's on the court.

The question I do have is how you conclude that defensive rebounding having the biggest statistical impact on defense. At a team level, eFG% is by far the biggest influencer on team defensive ability. DRB rate isn't even close. Examples: three of the bottom six DRB teams last year (BOS, LAC and ATL) were among the top 6 Drtg teams. None of the top 11 Drtg teams conceded eFG below the top half of the league last year.

At an individual level, DRB can be even more distorted as it is a function of both defensive positioning strategy and strategies designed to transition from defense to offense most efficiently. There are all sorts of high DRB players who aren't particularly strong rebounders, many of whom have negative defensive impact. Why? Because they cannibalize other DRB opportunities for players

First. There is a big lie that if 1 player doesn't get the rebound another teammate likely would have gotten it. It is only really true if you have multiple strong rebounders. Usually if you have strong rebounders an individual player doesn't produce big rebounding stats. Not that what you say doesn't happen. It doesn't happen enough to suggest well rebounding can be dismissed in that way.

One of the reasons why I felt like RW might have a shot at averaging a triple double prior to the year was that RW put up big rebounding numbers when OKC was a dominate rebounding team. Over the last few years they have lost Perkins, Ibaka, Durant. OKC doesn't have good rebounders. Despite being big the only other player who has produced even 20% rebounding percentage is Enes Kanter. Westbrook only plays limited minutes with him.

Why rebounding is the most important factor in defense. I don't think that should be shocking. There is a reason why great defenses usually have great defensive big men. Usually they are great at handling business on the glass. Bill Russell use to say guards can score but only bigs can dominate the paint and protect the rim. Just having someone who can protect the rim and rebound is a big step in a good defense. It doesn't mean your guaranteed to have a good defense. It just really hard having a great defense and not be strong on the defensive glass. Right now the only top 10 defense that is bottom 10 on the defensive glass is GS. Last year it was only the Clippers and Hawks. Not impossible to be good defensively and be bad on the defensive glass. It is usually the common trait with strong defenses.

[richboy]

What your basis that his defense isn't even above average. This is one of his best defensive years. If not his best. OKC is far superior defensively when he is playing than when he isn't in the game.

OKC is superior in defense when Oladipo is in the game (99 pts/48), not Westbrook (103 pts/48). Westbrook's luck is he just gets to play a lot with Oladipo on court.

Westbrook with Oladipo 100.2 pts/48
Westbrook without Oladipo 108.9 pts/48

At the same time

Oladipo with Westbrook has a 101 DRTG
Oladipo without Westbrook has a 105 DRTG

You come to the conclusion that it is Dipo. Which is fine he a good defender. At the same time your only really saying OKC suffers when Morrow and to a lesser extent Grant is the game.

Oladipo/Morrow and no Westbrook 1.18 DRTG
Westbrook/Morrow and no Oladipo 1.09 DRTG

[richboy]

You are defined by your consistency. Not by your best or worst days. I'm not really getting this argument. First your just pulling stats. My bet is Westbrook assisted or hockey assisted on much of that. Unless your not watching games I would think everyone would see how bad OKC suddenly gets when Westbrook isn't in the game. The 3 guys you just mentioned have a 95 offensive rating when RW isn't in the game. Which shouldn't shock anyone since Dipo was just a starting player on a terrible team. Kanter was a starting player on a terrible team. Sabonis is just a rookie. Regardless if Kanter, Dipo, Sabonis could play like that nightly they would not Westbrook to do what he does. They can't because they aren't that good. Westbrook isn't that bad on your numbers.

First of all, let's just start by saying that the Thunder are not better of without Westbrook. They won't make the play offs without him. That being said, that was not the argument either. Second, we do not live in the stone ages anymore. There is so much data available nowadays, a player can't even fart on court without it popping up in some sort of stat somewhere. You don't have to see all the games to understand what actually happened. In contrary, the mind could even play tricks on you, as you are much bound to remember the highlights than the lowlights.

Now, about that bet, you lost. Westbrook had 0 secondary assists and 1 free throw assist. The 3 guys shot 9 from 15 on his passes, 8 from 10 without him. Meaning they scored at most 22 points from his passes and 26 without. And that is only through the 3 quarters Westbrook played in. They shot another 4-from-8 in the 4th. But don't worry, you can keep whatever it was you were betting on.

Now to get back to the matter at hand, what I meant to say is, somehow the narrative has become that Westbrook needs to score 40-10-10 for the team to win, because others can't score, can't rebound, can't pass, heck, you would almost believe they could hardly drible the ball without turning it over. My example was just to point out that in my opninion he doesn't need to have an inefficient 30-10-11 to have team succes. But a more efficient 25-6-9 for example could also do.

I would completely disagree with you. Data only has meaning if you can subjectively use it to show what is actually happening in game. When used on its on it can become statistical cherry picking. Everybody just goes and looks for data that supports the argument they have taken. Like you said a lot of data out there.

I'm kind of intrigued why you threw in a 6 in your hypothetical stat line. I just say that because why would less rebounding help. Especially since they don't actually have any consistent strong rebounder in there starting lineup historically.

Either way I don't disagree that RW doesn't need to go 40 10 and 10 on many nights. The problem is many nights they are not playing Twolves, or Suns or Lakers. That brings the reality that Dipo, Kanter, and most of this roster has never been a productive player on a good team. Kanter doesn't even start and he plays 20 minutes a game. He could give you 20 or he could give you 8. Westbrook won't know what he will bring until late in the first quarter. Often he isn't even in the game with Kanter. He starting the game with Sabonis and Roberson. Dipo isn't even healthy. Adams is a work in progress in terms of his own offense. Most of what he gets is driven off the aggression of Westbrook. As of now you can't say you should play like this because who knows if that 25 -6- 9 is good enough to win.

What I wonder and ask to you is what would you think be the effect if RW played differently. Right now they are at 110 offensive rating while he is in the game. Equal to the Spurs. The Spurs line up of Green, Parker, Kawhi, Aldridge, and Gasol is producing less offense than OKC lineup of Westbrook, Sabonis, Roberson, Morrow, Adams. Take out Roberson and that rating is 125. Unless your in the mindset that OKC has this incredible offensive unit they seem to be outperforming what the talent suggest. People should care less about what Westbrook does and focus just as much on what the team is doing. Really what players you think should and could be doing more? Who else should be running PNR? Outside of Kanter I can't see who could handle more offensively. That is a coaching decision with regards to him.

[Mazter]

I'm kind of intrigued why you threw in a 6 in your hypothetical stat line. I just say that because why would less rebounding help. Especially since they don't actually have any consistent strong rebounder in there starting lineup historically.

Either way I don't disagree that RW doesn't need to go 40 10 and 10 on many nights. The problem is many nights they are not playing Twolves, or Suns or Lakers. That brings the reality that Dipo, Kanter, and most of this roster has never been a productive player on a good team. Kanter doesn't even start and he plays 20 minutes a game. He could give you 20 or he could give you 8. Westbrook won't know what he will bring until late in the first quarter. Often he isn't even in the game with Kanter. He starting the game with Sabonis and Roberson. Dipo isn't even healthy. Adams is a work in progress in terms of his own offense. Most of what he gets is driven off the aggression of Westbrook. As of now you can't say you should play like this because who knows if that 25 -6- 9 is good enough to win.

What I wonder and ask to you is what would you think be the effect if RW played differently. Right now they are at 110 offensive rating while he is in the game. Equal to the Spurs. The Spurs line up of Green, Parker, Kawhi, Aldridge, and Gasol is producing less offense than OKC lineup of Westbrook, Sabonis, Roberson, Morrow, Adams. Take out Roberson and that rating is 125. Unless your in the mindset that OKC has this incredible offensive unit they seem to be outperforming what the talent suggest. People should care less about what Westbrook does and focus just as much on what the team is doing. Really what players you think should and could be doing more? Who else should be running PNR? Outside of Kanter I can't see who could handle more offensively. That is a coaching decision with regards to him.

I guess we can all agree that the Thunder are better off with Westbrook on court. The way he is playing now he needs 6-7 minute break every half. Now I can only asume that he needs that break to recover from his intense style of play. But in 6-7 minutes a game can get completely out of hand.

Now to get back to the hypothetical statline. 6 less points and 1 less assist, that is 4 boring jump shots, maybe 6-12 plays. Would it really hurt the team if Westbrook took a back seat on those plays and let his teammates try to find a good look for an open jumper? Given that they are not complete idiots they should be able to. His presence on court alone would make it easier for them since he draws attention regardless.

4 less rebounds. At first I was fascinated by the amount of rebounds a 6-3 player could get. I started to analise them and then watch the clips. So I noticed he would get 4-5 rebounds within 5 feet of the basket with ie Adams and Sabonis as his closest rivals for the rebound. So he would run 15-20 feet just to get a rebound which had 99.9% chance of being captured by a team mate anyway, and then he would need to run the same 15-20 feet again to start up the offense. If he does this 20-25 times a game it would mean that he runs an 500-1000 extra feet a game to get 4-5 "unneccesary" rebounds. League rebounding is at his highest peak in 30 years yet offensive rebounding is at an all time low. Teams prefer to retreat early to set their defense rather than chasing second chance points. So him running around chasing those rebounds seem like a total waste of energy to me.

Now getting back at Westbrook being on court. I believe those 2 adjustments could increase his playing time by 3-4 minutes. He doesn't need to change his playing style. Just stop chasing uncontested rebounds and let his teammates play offense once in a while. It's just a thought.

[richboy]

I'm kind of intrigued why you threw in a 6 in your hypothetical stat line. I just say that because why would less rebounding help. Especially since they don't actually have any consistent strong rebounder in there starting lineup historically.

Either way I don't disagree that RW doesn't need to go 40 10 and 10 on many nights. The problem is many nights they are not playing Twolves, or Suns or Lakers. That brings the reality that Dipo, Kanter, and most of this roster has never been a productive player on a good team. Kanter doesn't even start and he plays 20 minutes a game. He could give you 20 or he could give you 8. Westbrook won't know what he will bring until late in the first quarter. Often he isn't even in the game with Kanter. He starting the game with Sabonis and Roberson. Dipo isn't even healthy. Adams is a work in progress in terms of his own offense. Most of what he gets is driven off the aggression of Westbrook. As of now you can't say you should play like this because who knows if that 25 -6- 9 is good enough to win.

What I wonder and ask to you is what would you think be the effect if RW played differently. Right now they are at 110 offensive rating while he is in the game. Equal to the Spurs. The Spurs line up of Green, Parker, Kawhi, Aldridge, and Gasol is producing less offense than OKC lineup of Westbrook, Sabonis, Roberson, Morrow, Adams. Take out Roberson and that rating is 125. Unless your in the mindset that OKC has this incredible offensive unit they seem to be outperforming what the talent suggest. People should care less about what Westbrook does and focus just as much on what the team is doing. Really what players you think should and could be doing more? Who else should be running PNR? Outside of Kanter I can't see who could handle more offensively. That is a coaching decision with regards to him.

I guess we can all agree that the Thunder are better off with Westbrook on court. The way he is playing now he needs 6-7 minute break every half. Now I can only asume that he needs that break to recover from his intense style of play. But in 6-7 minutes a game can get completely out of hand.

Now to get back to the hypothetical statline. 6 less points and 1 less assist, that is 4 boring jump shots, maybe 6-12 plays. Would it really hurt the team if Westbrook took a back seat on those plays and let his teammates try to find a good look for an open jumper? Given that they are not complete idiots they should be able to. His presence on court alone would make it easier for them since he draws attention regardless.

4 less rebounds. At first I was fascinated by the amount of rebounds a 6-3 player could get. I started to analise them and then watch the clips. So I noticed he would get 4-5 rebounds within 5 feet of the basket with ie Adams and Sabonis as his closest rivals for the rebound. So he would run 15-20 feet just to get a rebound which had 99.9% chance of being captured by a team mate anyway, and then he would need to run the same 15-20 feet again to start up the offense. If he does this 20-25 times a game it would mean that he runs an 500-1000 extra feet a game to get 4-5 "unneccesary" rebounds. League rebounding is at his highest peak in 30 years yet offensive rebounding is at an all time low. Teams prefer to retreat early to set their defense rather than chasing second chance points. So him running around chasing those rebounds seem like a total waste of energy to me.

Now getting back at Westbrook being on court. I believe those 2 adjustments could increase his playing time by 3-4 minutes. He doesn't need to change his playing style. Just stop chasing uncontested rebounds and let his teammates play offense once in a while. It's just a thought.

First with the rebounding. That is fine but your in essence saying Adams and Sabonis are better rebounders than what they have shown. Despite Adams pretty much being the same level rebounder his entire career. Could he get more is fine but RW rebounding is having big impact on there defensive rebounding numbers. They are not rebounding when he not rebounding. Yesterday's game perfect example. Westbrook had 3 rebounds at the half and OKC was getting killed on the offensive glass.

Also to note the Thunder would much rather Westbrook be on the glass because it opens up there transition game.

Well the game is not really played in this dimension of just do a little less and become more efficient. These others can't be idiots so give them opportunities. This is the same team that has a 96 ORTG without him in the game. Which is why I asked what exactly would you want. Do you want Adams in the post. You want Roberson or Morrow to run a PNR. NBA basketball is really a game of executing plays and having players capable of doing that. Westbrook is really there only high quality ball handler. When they had Durant he do less. When they had Durant and Harden he do much less. What can these lineups do that don't include Westbrook. Unless your going to put Kanter in the starting lineup I don't see much.

[Chicago76]

You talk like rebounding isn't part of defense. When in reality defensive rebounding has the biggest statistical impact on defense. RW has a defensive rebound percentage almost equal to Anthony Davis and Karl Anthony Towns. 8 points above Lebron James. OKC is a top 5 team on the defensive glass when RW is playing. They are by far the worst defensive rebounding team in the league when he isn't in the game.

I'm not disagreeing with Russell's impact defensively, either via his play on that end of the court or enabling the defense to get set through made FGs and FTs when he's on the court.

The question I do have is how you conclude that defensive rebounding having the biggest statistical impact on defense. At a team level, eFG% is by far the biggest influencer on team defensive ability. DRB rate isn't even close. Examples: three of the bottom six DRB teams last year (BOS, LAC and ATL) were among the top 6 Drtg teams. None of the top 11 Drtg teams conceded eFG below the top half of the league last year.

At an individual level, DRB can be even more distorted as it is a function of both defensive positioning strategy and strategies designed to transition from defense to offense most efficiently. There are all sorts of high DRB players who aren't particularly strong rebounders, many of whom have negative defensive impact. Why? Because they cannibalize other DRB opportunities for players

First. There is a big lie that if 1 player doesn't get the rebound another teammate likely would have gotten it. It is only really true if you have multiple strong rebounders. Usually if you have strong rebounders an individual player doesn't produce big rebounding stats. Not that what you say doesn't happen. It doesn't happen enough to suggest well rebounding can be dismissed in that way.

One of the reasons why I felt like RW might have a shot at averaging a triple double prior to the year was that RW put up big rebounding numbers when OKC was a dominate rebounding team. Over the last few years they have lost Perkins, Ibaka, Durant. OKC doesn't have good rebounders. Despite being big the only other player who has produced even 20% rebounding percentage is Enes Kanter. Westbrook only plays limited minutes with him.

Why rebounding is the most important factor in defense. I don't think that should be shocking. There is a reason why great defenses usually have great defensive big men. Usually they are great at handling business on the glass. Bill Russell use to say guards can score but only bigs can dominate the paint and protect the rim. Just having someone who can protect the rim and rebound is a big step in a good defense. It doesn't mean your guaranteed to have a good defense. It just really hard having a great defense and not be strong on the defensive glass. Right now the only top 10 defense that is bottom 10 on the defensive glass is GS. Last year it was only the Clippers and Hawks. Not impossible to be good defensively and be bad on the defensive glass. It is usually the common trait with strong defenses.

It's not a big lie that if one player doesn't get a DRB someone else will. Actually, let me re-phrase that: not all DRBs would be collected by someone else, but compared to other stats, there is greater cannibalization in DRBs. Multiple studies on regressing various box score stats to +/- at a team and individual level confirm that.

Two reasons: DRBs aren't measured via efficiency (like pts can be with TS and eFG and DRBs are largely a function of who you are guarding on the floor. If you rolled out a team of 5 Westbrooks, then offensively they are interchangeable. They go where the play takes them and contribute in terms of scoring and assist chances pretty evenly. On the defensive side, if you told Westbrook 1 he's guarding the opponent C, Westbrook 2 he's guarding the PF, etc, then they are anchored by their defensive responsibilities. DRBs aren't evenly distributed as a result. In the real world, RW is given more flexibility as a guard to go get DRBs because him starting the O with the ball in his hands quickly is so important to their O. But if they kept him home, shifting responsibility PF/C/SF would likely produce the same result on the defensive end. The decision isn't a defensive one. It's an offensive transition issue, ie, his DRB accumulation isn't really indicative of defensive ability.

[mysticOscar]

If Westbrook maintains this production and somehow goes all the way and carries OKC to a championship....im sure most posters here would put his season up there with the best of them regardless of what they think now (including mine).

Winning puts a lot of things into greater light (rightly so).

[Bergmaniac]

4 less rebounds. At first I was fascinated by the amount of rebounds a 6-3 player could get. I started to analise them and then watch the clips. So I noticed he would get 4-5 rebounds within 5 feet of the basket with ie Adams and Sabonis as his closest rivals for the rebound. So he would run 15-20 feet just to get a rebound which had 99.9% chance of being captured by a team mate anyway, and then he would need to run the same 15-20 feet again to start up the offense. If he does this 20-25 times a game it would mean that he runs an 500-1000 extra feet a game to get 4-5 "unneccesary" rebounds.

Westbrook doesn't "run 15-20 feet" to get his defensive rebounds, except in rare cases. When he is not the on-ball defender, he's usually stays right next to the painted area when a shot goes up, especially when he is defending someone spotting up in the corner which is pretty often.

[trex_8063]

You talk like rebounding isn't part of defense. When in reality defensive rebounding has the biggest statistical impact on defense. RW has a defensive rebound percentage almost equal to Anthony Davis and Karl Anthony Towns. 8 points above Lebron James. OKC is a top 5 team on the defensive glass when RW is playing. They are by far the worst defensive rebounding team in the league when he isn't in the game.

....

At an individual level, DRB can be even more distorted as it is a function of both defensive positioning strategy and strategies designed to transition from defense to offense most efficiently. There are all sorts of high DRB players who aren't particularly strong rebounders, many of whom have negative defensive impact. Why? Because they cannibalize other DRB opportunities for players

Agree.
DeAndre Jordan in some years (like last year) may be a fine example of that: DJ was 2nd in the league in rpg, drpg, and DREB% last year, and yet the Clippers as a team were 28th/30 in DREB%.
Dennis Rodman in his San Antonio years appears to be another example where his individual rebounding numbers oversell his rebounding impact (on the defensive side.....offensive rebounding is somewhat another animal).

On the flip-side, Marc Gasol is a player who I think is grossly undersold by his individual rebounding numbers.

[richboy]

You talk like rebounding isn't part of defense. When in reality defensive rebounding has the biggest statistical impact on defense. RW has a defensive rebound percentage almost equal to Anthony Davis and Karl Anthony Towns. 8 points above Lebron James. OKC is a top 5 team on the defensive glass when RW is playing. They are by far the worst defensive rebounding team in the league when he isn't in the game.

....

At an individual level, DRB can be even more distorted as it is a function of both defensive positioning strategy and strategies designed to transition from defense to offense most efficiently. There are all sorts of high DRB players who aren't particularly strong rebounders, many of whom have negative defensive impact. Why? Because they cannibalize other DRB opportunities for players

Agree.
DeAndre Jordan in some years (like last year) may be a fine example of that: DJ was 2nd in the league in rpg, drpg, and DREB% last year, and yet the Clippers as a team were 28th/30 in DREB%.
Dennis Rodman in his San Antonio years appears to be another example where his individual rebounding numbers oversell his rebounding impact (on the defensive side.....offensive rebounding is somewhat another animal).

On the flip-side, Marc Gasol is a player who I think is grossly undersold by his individual rebounding numbers.

Was that a reflection of Deandre Jordan or a reflection of the Clippers starting a guard that averaged less than 2 rebounds per game and a SF who wasn't much better. Last year Clippers were out rebounded huge at 3 of the 5 positions and pretty much tied at PG. Out rebounded by 2 at SG. By 2 at SF. By nearly 4 at the PF spot in 48 minutes. Fact is rebounding has to be done as a team and you can't expect 1 player to fix all the issues.

As for Westbrook and OKC. The Thunder are pretty much equal on the glass at every position not including PG. The other 4 positions they are a total of a -1. They are a plus 5 at the point guard position. The Thunder really don't have any reason to believe that if RW was a average rebounder that they have someone who could replace that. Unless you believe Adams is an elite rebounder in hiding.

Two reasons: DRBs aren't measured via efficiency (like pts can be with TS and eFG and DRBs are largely a function of who you are guarding on the floor. If you rolled out a team of 5 Westbrooks, then offensively they are interchangeable. They go where the play takes them and contribute in terms of scoring and assist chances pretty evenly. On the defensive side, if you told Westbrook 1 he's guarding the opponent C, Westbrook 2 he's guarding the PF, etc, then they are anchored by their defensive responsibilities. DRBs aren't evenly distributed as a result. In the real world, RW is given more flexibility as a guard to go get DRBs because him starting the O with the ball in his hands quickly is so important to their O. But if they kept him home, shifting responsibility PF/C/SF would likely produce the same result on the defensive end. The decision isn't a defensive one. It's an offensive transition issue, ie, his DRB accumulation isn't really indicative of defensive ability.

I think he gets the flexibility as a guard to get rebounds because of his ability to get rebounds. Lets remember your not guaranteed the rebound. Every team in the league that wants to play fast would love for there guards to get the rebound. You usually wouldn't be even be able to consider it because Westbrook is a guard that can even get contested rebounds. Dang we have ball handling big men that coaches want them to get the rebound to spark transition and they aren't rebounding like Westbrook.

Like I said before. OKC by the numbers is an average rebounding team at every position except 1. They have relatively matched the production at every position. Meaning Adams is rebounding almost equal to the centers he is going against. If RW decided I'm just going to be an average rebounder you would need the other 4 positions to improve on the glass or need someone else to become elite to match the production. Nothing in the past of many of these players show they can rebound at that level. Adams rebounding without RW goes up slightly. It still not close to Westbrook production.

Westbrook has a few things going for him. First he was an elite rebounder when OKC when they had more rebounders. He is even more of a rebounder when some of those rebounders leave for different teams. They have stayed a team that defensive rebounding isn't a weakness. You take away RW rebounding you have nothing to believe they suddenly wouldn't be the Washington Wizards or NY Knicks on the glass. You can give me well maybe someone would step up argument. Many teams at the bottom of the standings and stat sheets waiting for someone to step up.

He gets 17 rebounds today against Miami. One of the best offensive rebounding teams in the league. If he gets 5 no guarantee those other 12 rebounds go to Thunder players. If he is ending 2 or 3 possessions per game that no other point in the league is ending because of his rebounding that is significant defensive impact.

[Pelly24]

If Westbrook maintains this production and somehow goes all the way and carries OKC to a championship....im sure most posters here would put his season up there with the best of them regardless of what they think now (including mine).

Winning puts a lot of things into greater light (rightly so).

To me, him winning the chip would be a more singularly impressive feat than anything MJ, LeBron, Kareem or Bird have ever done. If the thunder win 55 games somehow, it'll be a beyond godly season. this is not a good offensive team at all, he's probably responsible for 65 of their points on any given night.