RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12

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RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#1 » by trex_8063 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:29 pm

2017 List
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Lebron James
4. Bill Russell
5. Tim Duncan
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7. Magic Johnson
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Larry Bird
11. Kobe Bryant
12. ????


OK, go!

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#2 » by Winsome Gerbil » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:50 pm

Is it too early for:

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?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#3 » by Purch » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:24 pm

I don't think we've discussed Moses Malone enough so far.. So let me leave this post from ShaqAttack on the dominance of Moses' 1982 season

ShaqAttack3234 wrote:I looked into this season a while ago, and have been meaning to make a thread about it, but forgot until the last few days, so now is as good of a time as any.

He didn't win the title this year like he did in '83, but this has a strong case for being his best season. The individual feats are just astonishing.

I'll start with the final 2 games in January. Entering these games, the Rockets were a mediocre 19-22, but they won both games with Moses scoring 33 in the first game and in the second game, he had 32 points, 20 rebounds, 2 assists and 4 blocks on 12/18 from the floor and 7/10 from the line in 41 minutes. This would start an 8 game winning streak, a stretch where Houston went 13-2, a streak of 13 consecutive 30+ point games, a stretch of 30+ in 19 out of 20 games, and lead into a month of February which would make these 2 late January wins look quiet.

Moses opened up the month of February with 53 points(19 in the 4th quarter), 23 rebounds(11 of them were offensive boards), 4 assists and 1 block on 19/30 from the floor and 15/18 from the line.

That was just the first of 3 consecutive 40 point games. He followed it up with 45 points and 20 rebounds and then had 47 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks on 18/28 from the floor and 11/15 from the line.

Here's what Del Harris had to say following these 3 games.

"If there's anybody playing any better in the NBA right now ... well, there just isn't," said Houston Coach Del Harris. "And the thing of it is, he's getting his points off the flow. He's getting them within the framework of our offense, plus the fact he's averaging about 10 points a game off his own hard work on the offensive boards."


Then Moses had a nice 33 point game before he continued with the legendary performances. His next game was a 38 point, 32 rebound game vs the Sonics, he broke his own record with 21 offensive rebounds, a record that still stands 30 years later, and this was the last 30/30 game until Kevin Love did it in the 2010-2011 season.

Moses outrebounded the entire Sonics team by himself, and Lenny Wilkens had this to say.

"Moses was really controlling the boards," said Seattle Coach Lenny Wilkens. "Bob Pettit and Bill Russell were two of the best (rebounders) that I ever saw. Moses compares very favorably."


Moses finally offered his 2 cents as well.

Originally Posted by Moses Malone
"I had stretches like this in high school, but never in pro ball," Malone said, "My body feels so good right now. I stay in shape. I'm losing pounds. The main thing is I'm getting rest."


After a few more 30+ games, one of them in Houston's first loss in more than 3 weeks, Moses had 44 points and 16 rebounds vs the Cavs. Followed by a few more "ordinary" 30+ games, Moses had 34/21 vs Dallas, then he was finally held under 30 with 23 points and 9 rebounds on 8/17 shooting show that he was normal, but the Rockets still beat Denver ever.

However, he'd end February with 43 points and 23 rebounds, and 44 points. Unfortunately, this game didn't end so well as Moses was held to just 2 points in the 4th, missed the potential game-winner in regulation and was held to just 2 points in overtime.

He'd add another 40+ game with 43 points on his first game in March, 14 of his points in the 4th quarter, although Houston would lose this game too.

Overall, Moses averaged 38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg in the month of February. he had at least 30 points in 13 of the 14 games, scored 40+ 6 times that month and had at least 20 rebounds 6 times that month. He led Houston to an 11-3 record and to nobody's surprise was voted player of the month for February.

But this was not the end of Malone's dominance. After starting off March with the aforementioned 43 point game for a second streak of 3 40+ games in a row in about a month, he continued dropping 30+ including 38/12 with 3 blocks on 16/26 from the floor and 6/6 from the line while playing all 48 minutes, he then came through in the clutch the next game. He had 39 points and 18 rebounds including the offensive rebound and game-winner with 4 seconds remaining to beat the Suns by 2.

He was then held under 30 for just the second time in 21 games with 28 and he shot just 10/28, and followed it up with a 26 point game, which may have made people think he was cooling off. Not the case. He responded with 49 points and 12 rebounds while scoring 22 in the 4th quarter to beat the Blazers, then he was relatively quiet with games of 24 and 19 points, respectively, but responded with 39 points and 17 rebounds vs Kareem's Lakers, though Kareem sat out the second half with a sprained ankle.



Moses transitioned into his next outstanding performance with 31 points in between. He duplicated his outstanding performance from about a week and a half earlier vs Portland when he had 41 points and 18 rebounds as well as a 12 point 4th quarter to beat Portland again. He followed this up with 46 points vs the Sonics to continue his dominance of both these Northwest teams. he had a 38/20 game vs the Mavs sandwiched between 29/17 and 35/15 games vs the Warriors, the latter being on April 1st. He had a relatively quiet 21/15 game in a win vs the Spurs to lead into another monster game vs Kareem and the Lakers. Moses had 37 points and 21 rebounds, although Kareem did get the last laugh with 12 of his 20 points in the 4th quarter to pull out the win.

This was really when Malone's historical dominance, which last over 2 months, finally came to an end, as he scored 30+ in just 1 of his last 6 games to end the regular season.

But comparable stretches to Malone's 2 months in April have been few and far between.

Moses finished the season with a career-high 31.1 ppg which was 2nd in the league and a league-leading 14.7 rpg as he was voted MVP.

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#4 » by Joao Saraiva » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:42 pm

I am definitely going to vote for Karl Malone as #1.

Thinking about Dirk vs Oscar vs KG for #2. I plan on writing something big about Karl Malone, so I'll do it tomorrow.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#5 » by wojoaderge » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:48 pm

Not much more to say about George Mikan other than he's my first vote once again. To repeat, no one left on the board was as dominating in his particular time or served as the go-to guy on as championship teams as he did.

Now for my alternate. I have the two 60s guards right behind these two, but I have to support these 1982-83 championship teammates because they deserve it. The Doctor and Moses. I'm gonna refer to him as "The Doctor" because that's what Brent Musburger (and perhaps Don Criqui as well) called him exclusively on all those late 70s broadcasts I watch. They're really close together to me. The Doctor was the best forward of the 70s and the best player in ABA history. As for Moses, I just have no idea why he's so underrated. He's easily more dominating, more overpowering, and more impossible to stop than any of 5s or 4s remaining. 3 MVPs. He led a 65-17 team to the championship as its best player and led a sub-.500 team to the NBA Finals (only the 2nd one to date). If you want to talk longevity, he had at least 16 straight good to awesome seasons. So, I don't know the problem is here. But back to the pick. Once again, they're really close. But upon inspection and reflection, i'm gonna against my initial ranking and select Moses here.

1-George Mikan
2-Moses Malone


Postscript: I have nothing against analysis, but my favored approach to these rankings is as an art rather than a science, probably because that's the way i'm with most things. I've previously mentioned things like amounts of MVPs, rings, and wins-losses, but my goal is to use as few statistics and numbers as possible to support my arguments, all the way through to 100 . . .
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#6 » by BasketballFan7 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:49 pm

1. Julius Erving
2. Dirk Nowitzki

Write up coming later
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#7 » by wojoaderge » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:49 pm

Purch wrote:I don't think we've discussed Moses Malone enough so far.. So let me leave this post from ShaqAttack on the dominance of Moses' 1982 season

ShaqAttack3234 wrote:I looked into this season a while ago, and have been meaning to make a thread about it, but forgot until the last few days, so now is as good of a time as any.

He didn't win the title this year like he did in '83, but this has a strong case for being his best season. The individual feats are just astonishing.

I'll start with the final 2 games in January. Entering these games, the Rockets were a mediocre 19-22, but they won both games with Moses scoring 33 in the first game and in the second game, he had 32 points, 20 rebounds, 2 assists and 4 blocks on 12/18 from the floor and 7/10 from the line in 41 minutes. This would start an 8 game winning streak, a stretch where Houston went 13-2, a streak of 13 consecutive 30+ point games, a stretch of 30+ in 19 out of 20 games, and lead into a month of February which would make these 2 late January wins look quiet.

Moses opened up the month of February with 53 points(19 in the 4th quarter), 23 rebounds(11 of them were offensive boards), 4 assists and 1 block on 19/30 from the floor and 15/18 from the line.

That was just the first of 3 consecutive 40 point games. He followed it up with 45 points and 20 rebounds and then had 47 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks on 18/28 from the floor and 11/15 from the line.

Here's what Del Harris had to say following these 3 games.

"If there's anybody playing any better in the NBA right now ... well, there just isn't," said Houston Coach Del Harris. "And the thing of it is, he's getting his points off the flow. He's getting them within the framework of our offense, plus the fact he's averaging about 10 points a game off his own hard work on the offensive boards."


Then Moses had a nice 33 point game before he continued with the legendary performances. His next game was a 38 point, 32 rebound game vs the Sonics, he broke his own record with 21 offensive rebounds, a record that still stands 30 years later, and this was the last 30/30 game until Kevin Love did it in the 2010-2011 season.

Moses outrebounded the entire Sonics team by himself, and Lenny Wilkens had this to say.

"Moses was really controlling the boards," said Seattle Coach Lenny Wilkens. "Bob Pettit and Bill Russell were two of the best (rebounders) that I ever saw. Moses compares very favorably."


Moses finally offered his 2 cents as well.

Originally Posted by Moses Malone
"I had stretches like this in high school, but never in pro ball," Malone said, "My body feels so good right now. I stay in shape. I'm losing pounds. The main thing is I'm getting rest."


After a few more 30+ games, one of them in Houston's first loss in more than 3 weeks, Moses had 44 points and 16 rebounds vs the Cavs. Followed by a few more "ordinary" 30+ games, Moses had 34/21 vs Dallas, then he was finally held under 30 with 23 points and 9 rebounds on 8/17 shooting show that he was normal, but the Rockets still beat Denver ever.

However, he'd end February with 43 points and 23 rebounds, and 44 points. Unfortunately, this game didn't end so well as Moses was held to just 2 points in the 4th, missed the potential game-winner in regulation and was held to just 2 points in overtime.

He'd add another 40+ game with 43 points on his first game in March, 14 of his points in the 4th quarter, although Houston would lose this game too.

Overall, Moses averaged 38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg in the month of February. he had at least 30 points in 13 of the 14 games, scored 40+ 6 times that month and had at least 20 rebounds 6 times that month. He led Houston to an 11-3 record and to nobody's surprise was voted player of the month for February.

But this was not the end of Malone's dominance. After starting off March with the aforementioned 43 point game for a second streak of 3 40+ games in a row in about a month, he continued dropping 30+ including 38/12 with 3 blocks on 16/26 from the floor and 6/6 from the line while playing all 48 minutes, he then came through in the clutch the next game. He had 39 points and 18 rebounds including the offensive rebound and game-winner with 4 seconds remaining to beat the Suns by 2.

He was then held under 30 for just the second time in 21 games with 28 and he shot just 10/28, and followed it up with a 26 point game, which may have made people think he was cooling off. Not the case. He responded with 49 points and 12 rebounds while scoring 22 in the 4th quarter to beat the Blazers, then he was relatively quiet with games of 24 and 19 points, respectively, but responded with 39 points and 17 rebounds vs Kareem's Lakers, though Kareem sat out the second half with a sprained ankle.



Moses transitioned into his next outstanding performance with 31 points in between. He duplicated his outstanding performance from about a week and a half earlier vs Portland when he had 41 points and 18 rebounds as well as a 12 point 4th quarter to beat Portland again. He followed this up with 46 points vs the Sonics to continue his dominance of both these Northwest teams. he had a 38/20 game vs the Mavs sandwiched between 29/17 and 35/15 games vs the Warriors, the latter being on April 1st. He had a relatively quiet 21/15 game in a win vs the Spurs to lead into another monster game vs Kareem and the Lakers. Moses had 37 points and 21 rebounds, although Kareem did get the last laugh with 12 of his 20 points in the 4th quarter to pull out the win.

This was really when Malone's historical dominance, which last over 2 months, finally came to an end, as he scored 30+ in just 1 of his last 6 games to end the regular season.

But comparable stretches to Malone's 2 months in April have been few and far between.

Moses finished the season with a career-high 31.1 ppg which was 2nd in the league and a league-leading 14.7 rpg as he was voted MVP.


Lol you posted this while I was writing mine
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#8 » by JordansBulls » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:00 am

The guys I am considering here are Moses Malone, Julius Erving, Oscar Robertson, Dirk Nowitzki and Karl Malone.

1st Vote: Moses Malone (we are talking about a guy dominated head to head vs Kareem,
Spoiler:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=Moses+Malone&player_id1_select=Moses+Malone&player_id1=malonmo01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Kareem+Abdul-Jabbar&player_id2_select=Kareem+Abdul-Jabbar&player_id2=abdulka01&idx=players

He won 3 league MVP's (including back to back in a league with Kareem, Magic, Bird, Dr J), 1 Finals MVP and was an all time dominant rebounder.

2nd Vote: Karl Malone
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#9 » by BasketballFan7 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:10 am

And I love the early Moses Malone discussion. Undoubtedly one of the ~3 most underrated players on this board.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#10 » by JoeMalburg » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:07 am

I think Mikan is the choice here. After all, short of punishing for the era he played in, how can you justify putting him any lower?

Who else won the title every year they were healthy for an eight year stretch? (47-54)

Who else was considered the undisputed player of his generation?

If you're not going to vote Mikan, do me the favor of briefing explaining why...


Beyond Big George here's the next group I'd be zooming in on:

Moses Malone - three-time MVP, 1 title as teams best player, two finals as teams best player.

Julius Erving - three time ABA MVP, 1981 NBA MVP, top five player for over a decade. Two ABA titles as teams best player, Second best guy on 1983 NBA Champion

Oscar Robertson - 1964 MVP, only guard to win award between 1958 and 1987. 9-time all-NBA first team #2 guy on '71 Champions.

Jerry West - 10-time All-NBA first team, number 2 guy on 1972 NBA Champion. 9 Finals apparences. 1969 Finals MVP despite his team losing.

Bob Pettit - two-time MVP, best player on 1958 Champs. Best player on three runner-ups as well. 10-time all-NBA first team.

Karl Malone - Two-time MVP, 14 time all-NBA, 11 first team, two finals as teams best player.

Charles Barkley - 1993 MVP, 11-time all-NBA, five first team, reached finals as teams best player.

Isiah Thomas - One of 13-15 players to win multiple NBA titles as his teams best player. 1990 Finals MVP, 5-time all-NBA

Kevin Garnett - 9-time all-NBA, 4 first, 2008 MVP, won title as teams best player.

Dirk Nowitzki - 2007 MVP, 11-time all-NBA, 4 first team. Won 2011 title as teams best player. Reached 2 Finals as teams best player.

Elgin Baylor - 10-time all-NBA first team pick. Reached the finals 7 times in first 11 years.

Bob Cousy - 12-time all-NBA, 10 first team. 1957 MVP, 6-time NBA champion. Best or second best player on 1957 Champion.

It really is wide open after #12 IMO...A year from now I think Curry and Durant could join the discussion.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#11 » by wojoaderge » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:28 am

JoeMalburg wrote:I think Mikan is the choice here. After all, short of punishing for the era he played in, how can you justify putting him any lower?

Why don't you vote then?
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#12 » by JoeMalburg » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:35 am

wojoaderge wrote:
JoeMalburg wrote:I think Mikan is the choice here. After all, short of punishing for the era he played in, how can you justify putting him any lower?

Why don't you vote then?


Won't have time to consistently be a part of discussion. Happen to have had this last week off.

This is a great project, I don't want to take away from the consistency that inevitably emerges from sharp, borderline obsessed folks diving do deep together.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#13 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:09 am

Case for Garnett: Elite defensive big man and great offensive big is strong for team construction. Great fit with other players, intangibles. Elite longevity. +/- data supports him. Case against KG: Behind several players on offense. Shooting % dips in playoffs. Regular season scoring numbers benefited from playing for Mr. Midrange Flip Saunders.

Case for West: Phenomenal efficiency compared to his era, equivalent of mid .60s TS scorers today, although his volume should also be adjusted down for era (Both his efficiency and volume are more like 2015 or 2017 Curry than Kobe?) One of best clutch playoff/Finals performance cases on the board. Lots of defensive accolades. Great intangibles. Case against: Average longevity and injury prone regular seasons. Defense isn’t confirmed, could be media driven

Case for Oscar: Offensive record is incredible. This dude was top 2 or 3 in PPG, APG and TS at the same time most years and his team was 1st in offense almost every year, along with all time great rebounding for a PG. Move to Milwaukee led to through the roof results. Case against: Non elite defense. Leadership concerns. The original Chris Paul mentally. He’s a genius conductor, but yells at you if you mess up. Was the Royals locker-room complicated like the Clippers? Average longevity.

Case for Dirk: Great +/- support due to his spacing. Placed at slow pace while stats like WS and PER show best in the league level peak. One of best playoff runs of the modern era. Great intangibles. Elite longevity. Case against: Big man who is an average defender, rebounder and passer.

Case for Karl Malone: Monster longevity and durability. Good defender and passer, solid floor spacer. Great intangibles. Case against: Some suspect playoff performances as Utah drops ball on multiple occasions. Did he have another gear of talent in the playoffs after going 110% in the regular season? Late career +/- supports Stockton over Malone.

Case for Moses Malone: 3x MVP shows support of people in his time as best in the league. Strong playoff performer including beating up Kareem. Trade to Sixers led to dominant season. Case against: Big who don’t space the floor and are non defensive anchors have fallen out of favor with +/- stats for a reason. Houston DRTGs are concerning. +/- stats show offensive rebounding is overrated - going for offensive rebounds can lead to transition points other way. Mediocre longevity as MVP caliber player.

Case for Julius Erving: Spectacular 76 peak with coming up big in playoffs. Great longevity, great intangibles. Still MVP level in NBA . Case against: Average shooting and floor spacing for a wing. Knee injury that led to NBA decline is relatively undocumented. Did the ABA transition style just fit his style of game more?

Case for George Mikan: Most dominant compared to his era. Case against: Era was a lot weaker in talent to due to lack of black players. Poor longevity.

Case for David Robinson: Some of greatest regular seasons in history. Continued to have impact after injury and arguably best player on champion. Had to carry weak cast before Duncan, it’s hard to put up numbers in playoffs when doubled non stop. Great intangibles. Case against: Suspect playoff performances in both offensive production and failing to stop others on defense. Mediocre longevity.

Assuming players such as Barkley, Pettit, Durant, Curry won't get steam yet

Players I feel most confident not voting for:

Mikan - Even before considering the era weakness, on longevity alone it's too big a stretch to get him this high
Moses - Not in my top 20 when considering the evidence we have now against non floor spacer, non defensive anchor big men, in addition to mediocre longevity.
Robinson - Mediocre longevity combined with skillset which appears to get exposed in playoffs

Now picking between some players:

West over Oscar - Favor West over Oscar due to concerns about chemistry with the latter and the Chris Paul comp

Dirk over Karl Malone - Dirk is better on offense more than regular season stats show, due to higher skill level in addition to spacing effect. Malone is better defense but not a true anchor. Longevity is only marginally in Malone's favor. Early 2000s Malone is flashier statistically but the 17-18ppg Dirk seasons is potentially as high impact when considering spacing.

KG/DIrk/Erving over West - West's career is spectacular but the more I look at it the longevity and health difference is hard to justify here. He has a decent 11 prime seasons but has less of the quality post prime seasons of players like KG and Dirk and those still matter.

KG over Dirk - Tough decision. Dirk has the playoff highs but overall I feel KG's higher RAPM supports him and if KG is better defender and Dirk is better offensive player, big man positions favoring defense push me his way.

KG vs Erving - Dr. J is a complicated player to rate when considering ABA. In some ways he is KG of SF position. I favor KG since he spaces the floor better for his position (Erving's may be a weakness for SF, Garnett's a strength for PF) and has higher defensive impact due to position.

Vote: Kevin Garnett

2nd: Dirk Nowitzki
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Pablo's (Reg. Seas.) GOAT List (Hot Off The Presses) 

Post#14 » by Pablo Novi » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:13 am

G O A T #s: Reg.Seas.: NBA-ABA-NBL !! "A"(ctive)
..# ! PTS ! .. POS.# ! P L A Y E R !! POS. No.
..1 ! 68.5 ! 1 ! Duncan, Tim ........... !! 4
..2 ! 66.5 ! 1 ! Abdul-Jabbar, Kareem!! 5
..3 ! 66.. ! 2 ! Malone, Karl ........... !! 4
..4 ! 65.. ! 1 ! Bryant, Kobe .......... !! 2
..5 ! 62.3 ! 1 ! James, LeBron ........ !! 3 A
..6 ! 56.5 ! 2 ! O'Neal, Shaquille ..... !! 5
..7 ! 55.5 ! 2 ! Jordan, Michael ....... !! 2
..8 ! 55.. ! 3 ! West, Jerry ............ !! 2
..9 ! 54.. ! 2 ! Erving, Julius .......... !! 3
10 ! 51.. ! 1 ! Robertson, Oscar ...... !! 1
11 ! 50.. ! 2 ! Johnson, Magic ......... !! 1
12 ! 49.3 ! 3 ! Bird, Larry ............. !! 3
13 ! 48.3 ! 3 ! Olajuwon, Hakeem ... !! 5
14 ! 45.9 ! 4 ! Baylor, Elgin ........... !! 3
15 ! 44.. ! 5 ! Barry, Rick ............. !! 3
16 ! 43.9 ! 3 ! Pettit, Bob ............. !! 4
17 ! 43.3 ! 4 ! Nowitzki, Dirk ......... !! 4 A
18 ! 43.. ! 4 ! Chamberlain, Wilt ..... !! 5
19 ! 42.. ! 5 ! Barkley, Charles ....... !! 4
20 ! 40.2 ! 3 ! Cousy, Bob ............. !! 1
21 ! 38.8 ! 6 ! Garnett, Kevin ........ !! 4
22 ! 37.8 ! 4 ! Stockton, John ........ !! 1
23 ! 35.. ! 5 ! Kidd, Jason ............. !! 1
24 ! 34.5 ! 5 ! Robinson, David ....... !! 5
25 ! 34.. ! 6 ! Paul, Chris .............. !! 1 A
26 ! 33.5 ! 6 ! Malone, Moses ......... !! 5
27 ! 33.. ! 7 ! Howard, Dwight ....... !! 5 A
28 ! 32.5 ! 4 ! Gervin, George ........ !! 2
29 ! 32.3 ! 6 ! Durant, Kevin .......... !! 3 A
30 ! 30.1 ! 8 ! Russell, Bill ............ !! 5
31 ! 29.8 ! 7 ! Payton, Gary ........... !! 1
32 ! 29.3 ! 8 ! Nash, Steve ............ !! 1
33 ! 28.5 ! 9 ! Iverson, Allen .......... !! 1
34 ! 27.8 ! 7 ! Schayes, Dolph ........ !! 4
35 ! 27.. ! 9 ! Gilmore, Artis ......... !! 5
36 ! 26.3 ! 5 ! Wade, Dwyane ........ !! 2 A
37 ! 25.. ! 7 ! Pippen, Scottie ........ !! 3
38 ! 24.3 ! 10 ! Thomas, Isiah ........ !! 1
39 ! 23.8 ! 10 ! Ewing, Patrick ....... !! 5
40 ! 23.3 ! 11 ! Westbrook, Russell .. !! 1 A
41 ! 23.. ! 12 ! Frazier, Walt .......... !! 1
42 ! 23.. ! 8 ! McGrady, Tracy ........ !! 3
43 ! 21.8 ! 9 ! Wilkins, Dominique .... !! 3
44 ! 21.. ! 6 ! Drexler, Clyde .......... !! 2
45 ! 19.8 ! 10 ! Anthony, Carmelo .... !! 3 A
46 ! 19.5 ! 7 ! Harden, James ......... !! 2 A
47 ! 19.. ! 13 ! Archibald, Nate "Tiny" !! 1
48 ! 19.. ! 8 ! Moncrief, Sidney ........ !! 2
49 ! 19.. ! 11 ! Pierce, Paul ............ !! 3
50 ! 18.8 ! 14 ! Sharman, Bill .......... !! 1

Explanations:
Col 1: Pablo's Reg. Seas. GOAT Rankings (based basically on the number of selections to ALL-NBA, ALL-ABA, ALL-NBL Teams
Col 2: "Points" based on Col 1
Col 3: Pablo's Reg. Seas. GOAT Rankings by POSITION
Col 4: Player
Col 5: Player's (Main) Position
Col 6: "A" = Active
-----
I probably rate the Post-Season lower than almost anybody else on here (given the MUCH greater sample size that is the Reg. Season; and given how much match-ups, injuries and other factors influence Post-Season outcomes.

Therefore, my overall GOAT list is not much different than the above.

I STRONGLY believe that THE best criteria, THE "most-objective" is no stat or combination of stats (regular or advanced); but instead the "non-stat" that is the results of the ALL-League 1st-Team, 2nd-Team, etc voting. The voters are HIGHLY qualified; and their sheer numbers overwhelm their individual biases.

I've used a not-too complicated formula for calculating the "Points" based on those ALL-League selections (basically:
a) Each 1st-Team selection gets 5 "Points"
b) Each 2nd-Team selection gets 3 "Points"
c) Each lower selection gets less "Points"
d) Starting the 1960's (which I define as the beginning of the "Modern Era" - with the All-Time Greats from any decade being "transferrable" to any other decade and still being All-Time Greats (possible exception: Bill Russell, due to his shooting inadequacies). BUT, I believe that while the All-Time Greats ARE approximately equal across these past 6 decades; the over-all level of play of the other All-Stars has improved - so the "Points" I award for 3rd-Teamers (and below) has increased by about 10% per decade.
e) For the pre-1960's, all the "Points" awarded get reduced (much more so for the 1940s than the 1950s).
[I've included ALL the ALL-League results from the first year of the NBL (1937-38 season); I've pro-rated the three Dual League years (NBL vs BAA) and nine Dual League years (ABA vs NBA).

In MY GOAT list, I have one player from each position (PG, SG, SF, PF and C) in each descending set of 5 GOAT spots. So, in my GOAT Top 5 I have: KAJ, Magic, MJ, LBJ and TD (in that order). I feel quite strongly that virtually every other GOAT list I've seen overemphasizes the BIGs - all the running around, cutting, extra dribbling, etc of the "smalls" should count about equally as does the Big's advantage on defense.

MY VOTE:
Karl Malone (GOAT #2 PF)
Dr J (GOAT #2 SF)
Big "O" (GOAT #2 PG)
Jerry West, Bird, Pettit, Cousy (in this order. GOAT #3s at their respective positions)

N.B. I made my first GOAT list at the end of the 1960 season; and have been "updating" it periodically.
Circa 1996, I came upon the idea of basing my GOAT rankings primarily based on the ALL-League selections; and this last version represents several thousand hours spread over the last 2 decades; with over 3,000 hours just in the last 3 years.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#15 » by wojoaderge » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:27 am

Dr Positivity wrote:Big who don’t space the floor and are non defensive anchors have fallen out of favor with +/- stats for a reason.

Good thing he's not playing in today's NBA
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#16 » by rebirthoftheM » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:32 am

Based on the trend of votes in recent times (Shaq, Magic and now Kobe) seems like there's been real push for elite offense first players with elite accolades to boot. The TD/Russell rankings at this stage bucks the trend, but then both dudes were the corner stones of two of the most dominant franchises of all time.

Dirk v KG comes into focus, but unlike the previous 3, Dirk doesn't have the accolade advantage over KG, although in his prime, was in the same tier offensively as Shaq/Magic/Kobe. He also has a 'narrative advantage' by leading a star-less team (minus him of course) to a ring in 2011. Will be really interesting to see what criteria(s) now reign supreme. Based on the ALTs though, it would appear that Dirk got primary support as an ALT to KG, so this might not even matter at the moment.

I know there's a lot of posters with keen interest in, and strong knowledge of the 1960s. The West v Oscar discussion should be enlightening. My very broad understanding is that Oscar was the better RS offensive performer, while West was the better PS performer. Oscar however was stuck on awful teams, and had the unlucky situation of running into Wilt and Russell too many times in the PS. He still led his teams to IIRC 6 #1 ORTG IIRC, 2 or 3 of them coming before Lucas swung through. Mightily impressive. Other than Oscar's accolade problem (relatively against JW), and perhaps his relative longevity issues (against KG), I don't see many obstacles to his claim. Oscar, like KG showed, that if he was in the right situation, he too could go places. And the WOWY stuff has he (and West) looking amazing.


And then there's the Logo and his ATG playoff moments. It also seems he was considered a better defender, though I'm not sure whether West as a guard was really moving the needle there. His case still looks very strong against all others tho.


Then there's Karl Malone of course.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#17 » by penbeast0 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:45 am

VOTE: George Mikan. Yes, he played in a smaller, appreciably weaker NBA without the great black stars of his day. However, he dominated his league in a way that no one left, not even Shaq, matches. I am willing to switch my vote if (a) someone does a good analysis of his impact v. that of Shaq/Hakeem or (b) someone convinces me that Bird/Kobe/other deserves to be in ahead of Shaq/Hakeem. It's a bit of a cheat since I know he has no support, but I want him to be in the conversation. He was considered the best offensive player of the day AND the best defensive player and had a run of title teams similar to MJ without the hiatus. Of course, then you have to discount for his era . . . figure the talent of about 1 division in Jordan's day, and even less today where the league has greatly expanded it's talent base. However, even in Mikan's day, if you were close to 7 foot tall, you at least considered a basketball career so the talent differential is less than at other positions.

ardee wrote:

Could you repost the stats comparing Mikan to Jordan?


1951 is the first year we have rebounding stats available and, according to Win Shares, the last year of his true prime (WS averaged 21.8 for the 3 years up to that, 13.9 for the 3 years after that, then he retired except for a short, aborted attempt at a comeback in 56). So let's take that and compare it to Jordan's best year of 1991(according to WS, it's either 88 for highest total or 91 for WS/48 and just behind 88 for total because he "only" played 3081 minutes).

In terms of raw averages:
Mikan averaged 14.1reb, 4.1ast, 28.4pts on a ts% of .509 v. a league ts% of .428 on a pace of 94.8
Jordan averaged 6.0reb, 5.5ast, 31.5pts on a ts% of .605 v. a league ts% of .534 and a pace of 95.6

The pace is not that different, nor are the raw numbers taking into account the positions they played; the key is the ts%. But, using a simple ratio, Mikan's equivalent ts% relative to 1991 league numbers is .634! So, rather than being inefficient, you can see that for his time he was extremely efficient. Nothing fancy, but it's always a shock how much efficiency changes from the 50s to the 60s.

Alternate: By the numbers, Oscar, Kobe, or Karl Malone, by the eye test, Jerry West, by advanced statistics Garnett or David Robinson . . . my secondary pick is Jerry West. There are 4 players in the 1960s who were a clear level above the league, the way LeBron and Curry (and maybe Durant if healthy) have been the last 3 years. They are (in my order) Russell, Wilt, West, and Ocar . . . then there's a big dropoff to Bob Pettit (5th best) and Elgin Baylor (6th best) . . . then another droppoff to anyone else. Pettit (and to a lesser extent Baylor) was more dominant in the 50s so he gets a big boost there v. the Walt Bellamy, Sam Jones, Hal Green types. I consider the 60s to be a strong era in NBA history due to the talent being packed together on a relatively few teams, as high or higher than the 80s and 90s, so there isn't the era penalty that makes Mikan so difficult to judge.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#18 » by eminence » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:45 am

Dr Positivity wrote:
Spoiler:
Case for Garnett: Elite defensive big man and great offensive big is strong for team construction. Great fit with other players, intangibles. Elite longevity. +/- data supports him. Case against KG: Behind several players on offense. Shooting % dips in playoffs. Regular season scoring numbers benefited from playing for Mr. Midrange Flip Saunders.

Case for West: Phenomenal efficiency compared to his era, equivalent of mid .60s TS scorers today, although his volume should also be adjusted down for era (Both his efficiency and volume are more like 2015 or 2017 Curry than Kobe?) One of best clutch playoff/Finals performance cases on the board. Lots of defensive accolades. Great intangibles. Case against: Average longevity and injury prone regular seasons. Defense isn’t confirmed, could be media driven

Case for Oscar: Offensive record is incredible. This dude was top 2 or 3 in PPG, APG and TS at the same time most years and his team was 1st in offense almost every year, along with all time great rebounding for a PG. Move to Milwaukee led to through the roof results. Case against: Non elite defense. Leadership concerns. The original Chris Paul mentally. He’s a genius conductor, but yells at you if you mess up. Was the Royals locker-room complicated like the Clippers? Average longevity.

Case for Dirk: Great +/- support due to his spacing. Placed at slow pace while stats like WS and PER show best in the league level peak. One of best playoff runs of the modern era. Great intangibles. Elite longevity. Case against: Big man who is an average defender, rebounder and passer.

Case for Karl Malone: Monster longevity and durability. Good defender and passer, solid floor spacer. Great intangibles. Case against: Some suspect playoff performances as Utah drops ball on multiple occasions. Did he have another gear of talent in the playoffs after going 110% in the regular season? Late career +/- supports Stockton over Malone.

Case for Moses Malone: 3x MVP shows support of people in his time as best in the league. Strong playoff performer including beating up Kareem. Trade to Sixers led to dominant season. Case against: Big who don’t space the floor and are non defensive anchors have fallen out of favor with +/- stats for a reason. Houston DRTGs are concerning. +/- stats show offensive rebounding is overrated - going for offensive rebounds can lead to transition points other way. Mediocre longevity as MVP caliber player.

Case for Julius Erving: Spectacular 76 peak with coming up big in playoffs. Great longevity, great intangibles. Still MVP level in NBA . Case against: Average shooting and floor spacing for a wing. Knee injury that led to NBA decline is relatively undocumented. Did the ABA transition style just fit his style of game more?

Case for George Mikan: Most dominant compared to his era. Case against: Era was a lot weaker in talent to due to lack of black players. Poor longevity.

Case for David Robinson: Some of greatest regular seasons in history. Continued to have impact after injury and arguably best player on champion. Had to carry weak cast before Duncan, it’s hard to put up numbers in playoffs when doubled non stop. Great intangibles. Case against: Suspect playoff performances in both offensive production and failing to stop others on defense. Mediocre longevity.

Assuming players such as Barkley, Pettit, Durant, Curry won't get steam yet

Players I feel most confident not voting for:

Mikan - Even before considering the era weakness, on longevity alone it's too big a stretch to get him this high
Moses - Not in my top 20 when considering the evidence we have now against non floor spacer, non defensive anchor big men, in addition to mediocre longevity.
Robinson - Mediocre longevity combined with skillset which appears to get exposed in playoffs

Now picking between some players:

West over Oscar - Favor West over Oscar due to concerns about chemistry with the latter and the Chris Paul comp

Dirk over Karl Malone - Dirk is better on offense more than regular season stats show, due to higher skill level in addition to spacing effect. Malone is better defense but not a true anchor. Longevity is only marginally in Malone's favor. Early 2000s Malone is flashier statistically but the 17-18ppg Dirk seasons is potentially as high impact when considering spacing.

KG/DIrk/Erving over West - West's career is spectacular but the more I look at it the longevity and health difference is hard to justify here. He has a decent 11 prime seasons but has less of the quality post prime seasons of players like KG and Dirk and those still matter.

KG over Dirk - Tough decision. Dirk has the playoff highs but overall I feel KG's higher RAPM supports him and if KG is better defender and Dirk is better offensive player, big man positions favoring defense push me his way.

KG vs Erving - Dr. J is a complicated player to rate when considering ABA. In some ways he is KG of SF position. I favor KG since he spaces the floor better for his position (Erving's may be a weakness for SF, Garnett's a strength for PF) and has higher defensive impact due to position.

Vote: Kevin Garnett

2nd: Dirk Nowitzki


Remember that we do have +/- for Moses for his Sixers years and he looked pretty dang good (though inconsistent year to year).
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Re: Pablo's (Reg. Seas.) GOAT List (Hot Off The Presses) 

Post#19 » by penbeast0 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:51 am

Pablo Novi wrote:...
MY VOTE:
Karl Malone (GOAT #2 PF)
Dr J (GOAT #2 SF)
Big "O" (GOAT #2 PG)
Jerry West, Bird, Pettit, Cousy (in this order. GOAT #3s at their respective positions)
...

Sorry, but you only get one vote and one alternate. Is this a vote for Karl Malone with Julius Erving as alternate? I can't count it if I am not sure.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List 2017: #12 

Post#20 » by mdonnelly1989 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:53 am

VOTE #1. Oscar Robertson


I sometimes feel like Oscar Robertson get's really downplayed because of ERA and Pacing. I'm not saying that is isn't a reason to take him over Magic as I would take Magic of all time but there is a discussion to be had that The Big O was better than Magic during their primes.

At the end of the day we will never truly know how great O was because of such the distance of ERA.

Vote #2. Jerry West

The Logo was considered one of the greatest shooters of his generation, average 25+ and 9 assists during his prime and on all time level defense.

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