oldschooled wrote:LA Bird wrote:1. Dirk Nowitzki
A top 5 offensive GOAT who is not a complete disaster on defense (see Barkley). Dirk has great longevity and ranks very highly in both box score based stats as well as plus minus stats. Consistently excellent team win % throughout his prime and performs well in the playoffs. To a certain extent, I think Dirk's offensive style was so diametrically different from how PFs were traditionally supposed to play that many were more intent on scrutinizing any potential shortcomings of him as a player rather than look at what he actually achieved throughout his career.
2. David Robinson
Weak longevity is the only reason why DRob is so low. I rank him very highly (#2 player in the 90s) and he would have been a lock for top 10 had he not started so late as a rookie and missed the 92/97 seasons.
Ok where did this come from since you're comparing him with Dirk regarding defense.
I’d been meaning to do some scouting wrt Barkley’s defense, as it’s an important part of the debate at this point. I just fully scouted the entire game vs the Bulls from ‘91 in this video:
…...Making notes for every single defensive possession to get an idea of what [presumably] is a typical defensive performance from prime Barkley.
I’ll be grading his performance on each and every play (with description of the play and time-log) mostly on a scale of:
“Neutral” - doesn't do anything overly wrong, but isn’t appreciably good in any way. You might think of this as adequate/barely adequate, or reasonable expectation from a mediocre/average defender.
“Good” - fairly self-explanatory (better than neutral, in which he exhibits some commendable effort or awareness, or both, which helps his team on that defensive possession)
“Poor” - again fairly self-explanatory wherein effort, awareness, or defensive decision-making (or any combination of the three) is lacking to the point that it visibly hurts (or
could have hurt, as I’m not focusing on the result of the play) the team’s defensive possession.
Sometimes things are on the cusp of good or poor, where I might give a grade of “Neutral to poor” or “Neutral to good”. Very rarely I may award grades of “Excellent” or “Terrible” for plays that are rather special in one direction or the other.
My analysis probably doesn’t contain quite the insight someone like Blackmill or drza may be capable of, but you can review video for yourself.
General note: he splits his time primarily between Pippen or Grant in this game (I would say guarding Pippen perhaps 55-60% of the time, Grant ~40-45%). I included every single play in the following log, even the ones he basically wasn’t involved with (generally just grading them “neutral”) except for maybe 1-2 non-involved plays in the early going.
8:45 - Fairly good rotation to cover Grant on the baseline.
Neutral to Good.
10:50 - Not really involved in the play.
Neutral.
11:29 - Sagging somewhat far off Pippen, fwiw, but probably wise as Pippen is not an effective distance shooter in ‘91. Decent position for DReb, but otherwise not really involved in this play.
Neutral.
12:05 - Lackadaisical in chasing Pippen, bumps into a Cartwright screen and makes NO effort to fight thru and recover his man. Pippen gets WIDE open 17-footer (makes it).
Poor.
13:16 - Good aggressive low-post defense on Pippen around start of the play, denies deep post-up and also denies the entry pass. But then doesn’t show/help at all on Grant when Pippen sets a back-pick on Gilliam (Barkley seems completely oblivious of what was happening); Grant then gets an uncontested lay-up underneath.
Neutral to Poor (honestly I feel I’m being generous with that grade; giving it the “Neutral to…” grade simply because he does start out the possession with some decent defense on his man.
13:40 - Good hustle back in semi-transition (from baseline in-bound, though). Otherwise uninvolved in the play.
Neutral.
14:20 - Obtains the DReb, though hadn’t really boxed out well.
Neutral.
15:10 - Somewhat slow coming back in semi-transition, but a decent box-out this time.
Neutral.
17:10 - Picks up Paxson on a switch, but *stays backed way off, leaving Pax way too much room (so he shoots); weak/minimal contest on the 19-20 foot jumper (though luckily Paxson misses). *Note: Barkley looks “engaged” on this play (i.e. doesn’t appear to be a lack of effort); so the fact that he still so misplays it (as though Paxson is a threat on the drive and not a threat from the midrange and outside) potentially demonstrates a low defensive IQ (it’s certainly a mental error, at any rate).
Poor.
17:35 - Barkley gets stripped on O, then gives up the uncontested dunk in transition by Jordan. Barkley was essentially running right next to him the whole way down; had every opportunity to foul (even BEFORE it would be a shooting foul, as there’s no “clear path” rule in ‘91). Now I understand that Barkley may be generally advised to avoid foul trouble (because they need him on offense), and maybe he had that in mind, which is why I won’t give this an outright grade of “poor”.....but it’s otherwise a pretty bad play.
Neutral to poor.
18:05 - Fair/decent chasing Pippen off-ball. Somewhat weak box-out, though does get the DReb (it practically hits him in the mouth).
Neutral.
18:28 - This play starts out really good for Barkley. Initially hustles back well in semi-transition, moves his feet well to cut off Pippen’s initial penetration attempt, then denies the entry pass to Grant. But then he doesn’t move his feet well on the 2nd penetration attempt by Pippen and gets beat; the defense collapses and breaks down as a result, with teammates rotating to pick up Pippen, allowing a kick-out to a wide open Paxson for a 3PA (made).
Neutral to Poor (not giving it an outright “poor” grade because he does some things very well at first; however, it ultimately was his defensive failing that results in the complete collapse of the team D).
20:20 - Somewhat weak box-out on Pippen; ALMOST gives up the OReb.
Neutral (being a pinch generous there, as I may have been a pinch harsh on the previous grade).
20:50 - Did get the DReb, but not hard-fought, and generally not involved in the play.
Neutral.
21:18 - Loses track of Pippen, who slips inside to get the OReb.
Poor.Side-note: Awesome transition dunk by Jordan at 22:00 (replay at 22:45). Happens so fast you don’t appreciate how good it is).
23:28: Decent off ball, though mostly uninvolved; gets in position for rebound, though.
Neutral.25:40 - Kinda loses King on the back-cut (if Cartwright were a better high-post passer, he might have burned Barkley for that). Barkley does then box-out nicely and get the DReb, though.
Neutral (perhaps a pinch generous there).
**Side-note: Hand checking foul at 28:00, just to show that they did get called even before more recent rule changes.**
28:30 -
Almost some really good help-D at the rim on the Jordan penetration. I think if he’d had BOTH hands up, there maybe wouldn’t have been a call (but his right hand was down, brushing on Jordan’s shoulder area, and thus gets called for foul). Decent box-out on the FTA.
Neutral.
30:30 - Is in OK position for rebounding, but Stacey King still comes away with OReb for Bulls to reboot. Subsequently shows decent help off-ball on King. The mistake was by Bol, imo, who sort of left Barkley to defend BOTH King and Grant; so the bad result (an And1 for Jordan) was not Barkley’s fault.
Neutral.
31:40 - Barkley fails to box-out (again), allowing King to get the OReb. Luckily Bol defends the rim really well on this play.
Poor.
33:28 - Shades Armstrong nicely on the pnp, recovers to Grant adequately, then moves his feet well to cut off penetration by Grant; then shows just a little at Pippen on the subsequent kick-out and penetration attempt, forcing a pull-up jumper by Pippen (misses, Barkley gets the DReb, but then loses the inbound as he was falling out of bounds).
Good.34:30 - Nothing bad comes of it, but he almost completely fails to get a body on Grant, who slips inside for the OReb position.
Neutral to Poor.36:55 - Drifts way too far into the middle when (and I don’t see a good reason why), leaving Grant a WIDE open 13-footer on the baseline (made).
Poor.
37:45 - Decent to good show initially on the cutting Pippen, though you can see he then loses his man (Grant) toward the end of the play (luckily nothing comes of it because Pippen travels).
Neutral to Poor.
38:25 - Mostly uninvolved in the play.
Neutral.
39:15 - Not much involved in play. Generally adequate, though again a little weak on the box-out.
Neutral.
47:15 - Mostly uninvolved.
Neutral.49:10 - Loses Pippen on a back-pick that he didn’t see coming (a little of the blame could be on the guy guarding the back-picker), Pippen then gets good OReb position.
Neutral to Poor.
50:15 - Slow getting back in semi-transition.
Neutral to Poor.52:00 - Mostly uninvolved again, though on the shot he again sort of wanders toward the rim without boxing out (which I’m noting is a trend).
Neutral (could give this more of a “neutral to poor” tbh).
52:30 - Good getting back in semi-transition, adequate though uninvolved thereafter.
Neutral.
53:21 - Mostly uninvolved; perhaps could have made a little more effort/attempt to help on the MJ drive, but it’s a bit of a gray area.
Neutral.56:05 - Sagged off Pippen, goes under a very distant (far from Pippen) screen and allows a wide open 18-footer (misses, Barkley does get the rebound).
Neutral to Poor.57:00 - Uninvolved.
Neutral.57:38 - Loses track of Pippen on the baseline in the middle of the play (
luckily nothing comes of it). Does make a nice tip to Bol on the ping-ponging DReb.
Neutral to Poor.
59:00 - Not too involved in this play. However, it was again a sort of weak box-out and he also made no attempt to help on a cutting Jordan (though nothing came of it).
Neutral to Poor.
59:35 - Good hustle back on D. Adequate thereafter.
Neutral.
59:58 - Looks a touch lost at times, but mostly OK, and does get the DReb.
Neutral.
1:01:00 - Again misplays Paxson: he appears more concerned with Paxson driving on the sideline pnp, and leaves him a open 20-footer (made). It all happens kinda fast, so I don’t want to fault him too badly.
Neutral to Poor.1:02:05 - Sort of weird on this play: he kinda takes off for the other end (cherry picking a fast-break opportunity??) before the shot even goes up, allowing his man (Pippen) to cut toward the rim unguarded.
Poor.
1:02:30 - Kinda mediocre hustle back in transition, but otherwise OK.
Neutral.
1:03:55 - Tracks Pippen pretty well off-ball, and good help to cut off the Jordan drive. But is then quite lackadaisical in recovering to Pippen on the kick-out 16-footer, doesn’t contest the shot at all (made).
Neutral to Poor.1:05:05 - Again gets trapped behind a screen, makes little effort to fight thru. Gilliam is subsequently a little late switching off. I’m not sure who’s more at fault here. Fwiw, I hadn’t noticed a consistent trend of switching on screens (so Gilliam is perhaps absolved from that standpoint, imo); could have been better communication on both their parts. Pippen gets another open jumper which he makes.
Neutral to Poor.
1:06:10 - Smooth switch (w/ Gilliam) from Pippen to Grant early in play. Comes out and makes a nice contest on the 20-footer by Paxson.
Good.
1:07:05 - Doing reasonably well early in this possession, but then just goes rogue out on the wing late in the play. Bol then has to rotate down to cover Barkley’s man (Grant) on the strongside block, leaving Cartwright a WIDE open 13-footer on the opposite baseline (he misses, but Grant gets the offensive rebound).
Poor.
1:07:35 - Almost loses track of Pippen under the hoop again. Makes up for it by fighting hard for DReb tip.
Neutral.
1:08:20 - Decent help on Jordan on PnR defense, and nearly pokes away the dribble).
Good.
1:08:50 - Mostly uninvolved.
Neutral.
1:09:50 - Good rotation out on Paxson, and forces him to put it on the floor. Could have moved his feet a little better, but gambles on a strip attempt.
Neutral to Good (probably being overly generous here).
1:11:15 - Mostly uninvolved, though does appear to box-out reasonably well this time.
Neutral.
1:12:10 - Uninvolved.
Neutral.
1:12:30 - Uninvolved.
Neutral.
1:16:50 - Great block on the help D.
Excellent.
1:17:51 - Miscommunication between Barkley and Williams on switch, allows Cartwright an easy post-up and entry pass. Barkley defends OK on the post shot. Not sure who’s more at fault.
Neutral to Poor.
1:18:30 - Good contest on the Hopson drive (though it does leave Grant un-boxed out).
Neutral to Good.
1:19:33 - Another good help-D block attempt on Jordan drive (unfortunately Williams fouls MJ).
Good.
1:22:20 - King scores, but Barkley did rotate to help fairly quickly and contested the shot fairly hard.
Neutral to Good.
1:23:00 - Shows a little at the penetrator, though loses inside position to Grant in doing so.
Neutral.
1:23:18 - Mostly uninvolved.
Neutral.
1:27:35 - Reasonably decent help on the pnp, shading the ball-handler.
Neutral to Good.
1:28:20 - OK help on a cutting Hopson when Hawkins lost him.
Neutral to Good.
1:28:45 - Terrible hustle: barely comes back on defense
at all, leaving a 5-on-4 for most of the possession.
Poor.
1:29:46 - Mostly uninvolved in what actually happened, though he sort of loses track of Pippen on the baseline again (though no consequence). He also didn’t really contest the inbound pass at all.
Neutral to Poor.
1:30:50 - Mostly uninvolved.
Neutral.
1:31:40 - Good job staying in front of Pippen, cutting off the penetration, and harrying the dribble.
Good.
1:33:05 - Mostly uninvolved.
Neutral.
1:33:40 - Mostly uninvolved.
Neutral.
1:34:10 - Mostly uninvolved, though decent hustle back on D.
Neutral.
1:34:40 - Mostly uninvolved.
Neutral.
1:35:20 - Mostly uninvolved, though attention on Pippen in the post is a little lacking. Ball ends up going out of bounds (off Philly), leaving Chicago with a short shotclock in-bound situation, and Barkley does contest the inbound well.
Neutral overall.
1:36:50 - Mostly uninvolved.
Neutral.
1:37:30 - Mostly uninvolved.
Neutral.
1:38:36 - Fairly basic, but did show decent help to cut off Jordan penetration, and is in position for rebounding.
Neutral to Good.
1:42:00 - Mostly uninvolved.
Neutral.
1:42:40 - Mostly uninvolved.
Neutral.
SUMMARY (for those who don't want all the nitty gritty)
Few general observations….
*Barkley’s attention/awareness is sometimes lacking, especially the longer the possession lasts if he’s been involved (i.e. multiple times in which he starts out doing pretty well, but then seems to lose focus late in the play, essentially erasing the good defense he’d played to that point).
**Handful of clear mental errors, which imo potentially indicate a less than admirable defensive IQ.
***Somewhat consistently is NOT boxing out for defensive rebounds. He tends to more just drift toward the rim, rather relying on his athleticism to garner him the rebounds (but were multiple instances where Pippen or Grant slipped inside him because he wasn’t seeking to put a body on anyone).
Total side-note: one commentator was really effusive in his praise of Stacey King, making comments along the lines of “really hard worker”, “can run the floor”, and “is like a slim Wayman Tisdale”......comments that seems really surprising knowing how King’s career (and physique) ultimately turned out.
TOTALS:
Excellent Plays - 1 (1.3%)
Good Plays - 5 (6.6%)
Neutral-to-Good Plays - 7 (9.2%)
Neutral Plays (adding 1, since I know there was at least one neutral play early on that I disregarded because he was largely uninvolved in what transpired) - 40 (52.6%)
Neutral-to-Poor Plays - 15 (19.7%)
Poor Plays - 8 (10.5%)
So overall, I rated 17.1% of his defensive possessions as at least slightly above average, while 30.3% were at least slightly below average, with the rest being basically average. NOTE: that’s including all uninvolved plays (which inflates the number of “neutral” or average plays). If I remove all neutral plays in which basically there’s nothing to note (uninvolved), that eliminates 17 of those plays (making 22.0% of those remaining “above average/neutral”, and 39.0% “below average/neutral”).
==>Also note that there were a handful of grades where I felt I was being marginally
generous.
Man! This kind of scouting (and report)
does take awhile to put together. I can see why people so rarely do it. Fwiw, I did also watch part of game 7 of the ‘86 ECSF between Sixers/Bucks. My impression from that (wrt Barkley’s defense) was similar.
"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
