"The fact that a proposition is absurd has never hindered those who wish to believe it." -Edward Rutherfurd "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
Here's where I could start considering Mikan, but I'm also considering Nash/Stockton/Wade/Ewing.
All-Time Fantasy Draft Team (90 FGA)
PG: Maurice Cheeks / Giannis SG: Reggie Miller / Jordan SF: Michael Jordan / Bruce Bowen PF: Giannis / Marvin Williams C: Artis Gilmore / Chris Anderson
Not much more to say about George Mikan other than he's my first vote once again. To repeat, no one left on the board was as dominating in his particular time or served as the go-to guy on as championship teams as he did.
I kinda hope Mikan finishes higher than he did in 2014 (#24)
1-George Mikan 2-Bob Pettit
"Coach, why don't you just relax? We're not good enough to beat the Lakers. We've had a great year, why don't you just relax and cool down?"
I'm not sure I'd pick him here but I would like to see Stockton's name in here. His counterpart Malone was voted #14 and Stockton has similar longevity, all time records and team success.
Stockton may not score a lot but in some seasons he was directly responsible (scoring or assisting) more than Malone and he was a good defender at his position, a great teammate and a complete iron man.
One of the most underrated players IMO.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is. - Jan L. A. van de Snepscheut
Wade is my 1st vote and I’m looking to make his case now. I’ll go over the relevant years of his career, as well as his place in the league those years.
2004- Solid rookie year. Put up roughly 16/4/5 17.6 PER, 53 ts% .9 OBPM, 1.4 BPM. Missed 21 games, so I have to dock him some. Raised his game in the playoffs, where he arguably becomes their best player putting up 18/4/6 53 ts% 17.7 PER over 13 games. Drops 21/4/6 on 57ts% against the Pacers who were an elite team, and one of the best defenses in the league being anchored by a prime Artest and Jermaine Oneal. Overall, not a great season, but a borderline all star caliber season which should count for something when looking at his career.
2005- Wade becomes a legit superstar. and starts to become basically their de facto point guard as a term many use when a player basically takes on shooting guard and point guard duties. Along with Shaq, helps lead the heat to 59 wins and 1st seed in the east throwing up roughly 24/5/7 56 ts%, 23 PER in the regular season and again raises his game in the playoffs being one win away from the finals. Roughly 27/6/7 on 56 ts%, 24.3 PER and a 6.6 BPM over the entire playoffs. Should also be noted that Wade’s injury in the Piston series is pretty much why they didn’t advance. I mean they get completely blown out in the game 6 without him, and lose by 25 points. It’s fair to knock Wade for his injury, but at the same time, they don’t get put even close to the position they were without him.
2006- Wade this year goes from just a superstar to having an all time great season. This year, you see Wade become imo a borderline elite defensive guard, and he starts to take better care of the ball and get to the line a bit more. Shaq sees a decline from the previous year, and missed 23 games, so their record isn’t as good as the year prior. Wade wasn’t working with a whole lot outside of Shaq especially in his absence. We had Walker who was past prime, but still an alright player, Zo was still a good defensive player but was only playing 20 mpg. Haslem was never more than a good role player. I’ll use some of a post from Quotatious a few years back on Wade’s 2006 season. If he was here, I know he wouldn’t mind.
Quotatious wrote:I know that most people consider 2009 to be Wade's peak (me too), but his 2006 campaign is extremely impressive. I'm not even talking just about his playoff run, but his '05-'06 regular season is IMO underrated.
In the regular season, Wade averaged about 27.2 ppg (57.7% TS, +4.2% league average) /5.7 rpg (8.7% TRB)/6.7 apg (33.0% AST/13.2% TOV, so +2.5 ratio)/1.8 spg/0.8 bpg, 27.6 PER (4th in the league, very close to LeBron/Dirk, who had 28.1, and Kobe, with 28.0), 4th in WS/48 (after Dirk, Billups and KG), 2nd/3rd in BPM (behind LeBron, tied with KG for #2, at 7.0), 3rd in VORP (after LeBron and KG). Also, his +15.8 on/off court net is clearly higher than any other star's, including Kobe, LeBron, Dirk, Garnett, Duncan, Nash etc.
He finished #1 in the league in NPI RAPM, with a very sizeable edge over any other superstar of his caliber, #1 in prior informed, and 6th in xRAPM (behind Ben Wallace, Kirilenko, Duncan, Garnett and Shaq).
In the playoffs (23 games, obviously led his team to a title), he averaged 28.4 ppg (59.3%, so he actually improved his scoring compared to the regular season, while facing pretty good defensive teams - his first round opponents, the Bulls, had the 7th best defense in the league, second round opponent - the Nets, were #4 in DRtg, then in the ECF they faced the Pistons, #5 in DRtg, anchored by then-reigning DPOY Ben Wallace, and even the Mavs was decent defensively - #11), his rebounding stayed about the same (8.4% TRB compared to 8.7 in the regular season), playmaking declined a bit (27.9% AST/14.0% AST), but it was still pretty solid, and his defense apparently improved (it was already good in the RS). PER goes down by a bit (26.9, compared to 27.6 in the RS), WS/48 stay about the same (24.0 compared to 23.9), BPM goes up (8.9 compared to 7.5). His on/off court net is even higher than it was in the RS (+21.8).
I’ll just leave that season at that.
2007- Inury riddled year. Definitely hurts his career value, but before going down with injury Wade was playing close to his 09 level and clearly above his 06 regular season. In 46 games before injury, Wade averaged 29/5/8 on 59 ts%, while being a very good defender.
2008- Not a lot to talk about unfortunately. Beat up and injured, not playing to his usual level even when he was out there.
2009- Wade’s peak. Anybody that doesn’t know how great Wade’s peak was should educate themselves in a hurry. Hopefully Sideshowbob doesn’t mind me quoting some posts on Wade’s 09 season.
SideshowBob wrote:Wade 2009, late February-March scoring streak (34.7 GameScore!?)
That has to be the best stretch so far. That's just an unreal 11 game stretch. I've seen Jordan and James with the most extended streaks of a 28+ game score, but this is phenomenal.
There's an 8 game run in there that looks like this
He shoots 50% from 3, puts up an AST% of 48.7%, a USG% of 37.1%, a STL% of 4.5%, and a BLK% of 3.1%, all while putting up 40/7/10/4/2 on 66% TS no less
Here's a more detailed look at that stretch. Includes Miami's performance shifts, 4Factors, and Wade's Box lines.
Miami was able to run a +7.5 offense with Wade playing out of his mind like that.
2010- Elite, all time great season imo. Box scores- roughly 27/5/7 56+ ts%, 28 PER, 7.4 OBPM, 9.4 BPM, 8.0 VORP. Wade was 2nd in RAPM by a comfortable margin in the league behind Lebron, and his box scores also show him as comfortably the 2nd best player in the league behind Lebron. Led a mediocre cast to 47 wins. In the playoffs, Wade summoned his inner MJ on the Boston Celtics who were the best defense in the league that gave Lebron and Kobe problems.
5 games- 33.2/5.6/6.8 65 ts%, 29.4 PER 11.4 OBPM, 13.7 BPM. It was just one series, but it shows what Wade was capable of doing to super elite defenses. For those docking this series for the heat being a bad offense, please. The 2nd leading scorer on the Heat in that series was Chalmers at 10.8 ppg. Pretty much everyone was shooting and playing really poorly especially Jermaine Oneal who was historically bad. Oneal was playing 23 mpg, shooting 8.8 times per game and shot 22.3 ts%. Nobody that ever lived could’ve beaten the Celtics in place of Wade, or have them playing at a significantly better offensive level.
2011-2014 the big 3 era- I’m not going to go in too much detail as I think my post is getting too long at this point.
2011 Wade, was still in his prime and an easy top 5 player in the league. Still put up elite numbers with Lebron’s play style overlapping with Wade’s. Wade like in 2010 torched the Celtics, and was very great in the finals, would’ve had a 2nd finals mvp if Lebron plays even 75% of what he’s’ capable of. They could’ve gone up 3-1 if it weren’t for Lebron’s pathetic 8 point performance in game 4.
2012- Some injuries, still played basically at his prime level when he was healthy. Decent in the playoffs, stepped up in the Pacers series when Bosh went down with injury(averaged 33/7/4 on 64.4 ts% in games 4-6) Top 10 player in the league easily.
2013- Helped the heat to an historic 27 game win streak. Mediocre playoffs, but had a big game 4 in the finals where he was the best player on the floor and this game changes the momentum of the series.
2014- Injuries, was mediocre in the playoffs. Adds little value
2015- All star caliber, but definitely slowing down
2016- Nearly leads the Heat to the ECF, while being their clear best player in the playoffs.
I think Wade’s lack of longevity tends to get overblown or exaggerated. I think his combination of peak, prime, long playoff success and awards and accomplishments is enough to get him in imo. I think outside of maybe Curry, Wade has clearly the best peak left, and versus Curry i think his peak is comparable or slightly better and has a clear longevity edge. Vs Durant, I'd still give Wade a small longevity edge and i wouldn't hesitate to take him over KD in their primes. Vs Cp3, Wade is behind in longevity now, but Cp3 isn't a very durable guy himself especially come playoff time and has hurt his team's chances to advance on several occasions because of this. I'm not at all impressed with Paul's success given what he's had to work with, and i' m pretty confident that prime Wade would've taken the Clippers to at least a couple WCF appearances and probably even further. I'm not considering Mikan yet, i'm not impressed with his longevity or the fact that he beat up on pathetic competition.
Wade over Nash because of far superior defense, and Nash doesn't really have more seasons at a legit superstar level than Wade, 05-10 for Nash vs 05-12 for Wade but the games missed for Wade probably about evens it out.
Guys like Hondo and Stockton are worthy 25 candidates, and are iron men with great longevity, but prime for prime i don't think they are even close to Wade as far as level of play.
To me, Wade clearly deserves in at this point, and quite frankly it will be an utter joke if he falls any lower than 23-24.
I'm shaky on Mikan's positioning, but I'm going to stick with it on my same theory as the last remaining GOAT on the board.
The rest of the deep pool of candidates I would put in groups:
Wings Who Won As Second Fiddles, Early and Late, and In Between Put Up Big Numbers For Less Successful Squads Wade Pippen Havlicek
I think in that order. With Wade being the most dominant and I think a legit franchise player on his own, Pippen getting the next nod, not dominant offensively but really a point forward and possibly the GOAT wing defender, and if not, then in the running, and Havlicek having the most durability and longevity of the bunch. Since none of those three guys is my #22, I'll save the comparison until a later date.
Other Old Guys Who Fit..Somewhere Petit Baylor Barry
The Current Pack, Some of Whom are Likely Still Above #30 for Me Durant CP3 Curry Westbrook
Never been sure what to do with CP3, always thought he was so talented, and yet he is eternally dissatisfying. Like empty calories. Like a Little Debbie cake. And at this point he's the only one of those guys not to have won an MVP.
I could throw him down in the final group, the Tier 2 PGs, but while he's closing in now on full career numbers, he's still dwarfed in longevity by my Tier 2 guys (Stockton/Nash) and much closer to 3rd tier guys like Frazier and Isiah.
The Tier 2 PGs Magic and Oscar are special, not least for being huge physical players who could do so much more than just be a little squirty guy.
My #3 PG is John Stockton, who can play "anything you can do I can do better" with Steve Nash, and then add on a number of extra productive years as the GOAT longevity guard of all time, and defense (people forget he was 5x All Defense (2nd team)) and toughness.
Nash MIGHT be a 2nd "Tier 2 PG". I don't firmly believe in that so much as I don't firmly believe in any of the other guys' arguments to be ahead of him.
I'll focus on a Stockton vs. Nash, or possibly "Stockton vs. any other PG in history, come get some!" comparison later.
P.S. And Ewing deserves more respect than he is sometimes given. One of my issues with going for Mikan so early, is that traditionally in "greatest centers" lists I stick in Mikan AFTER Ewing, as Ewing is the last of the clearly all time guys, and once he's off the board, it can be time to give Mikan his daps.
Starting to wonder if there are way too many modern players being discussed in the 20's.
Wade, Nash, Westbrook, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry. Then we have Stockton, Ewing, Pippen (90's). Where are the 80's, 70's 60's guys? No one outside of Pettit?
Fundamentals21 wrote:Starting to wonder if there are way too many modern players being discussed in the 20's.
Wade, Nash, Westbrook, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry. Then we have Stockton, Ewing, Pippen (90's). Where are the 80's, 70's 60's guys? No one outside of Pettit?
I also have Baylor, Barry, and Hondo in my 20s
"Coach, why don't you just relax? We're not good enough to beat the Lakers. We've had a great year, why don't you just relax and cool down?"
Still going with Mikan here. Dominated his era more than anyone else. Weak era drops him here
Stockton to me is the ultimate PG. He was elite passer, defender and shooter. What else you want from your PG? Yeah, he didn't win championships, but that doesn't take anything away from his dominance. Lähetetty minun LG-H440n laitteesta Tapatalkilla
Just posted this in the last thread, didn't realize it was getting wrapped up, so I'll repost it here:
I think what really made me come around on Stockton was the +/- data that came out towards the end of his career that pegged him as one of the major impact guys around the league. Do I think playing for Sloan inflated his box score stats a bit? Yeah, sure. But a guy like Deron Williams seems to be someone who was more of a system player in the sense that his numbers looked great, but he never made a +/- footprint that really warranted the conversations he was a part of (namely, being compared to CP3).
But Stockton's impact clearly did go beyond the points and assists, and you combine that with insane longevity...it's hard for me to really rank anyone ahead of him as far as PGs go, other than Magic and Oscar...and even then, maybe our narratives about Stockton not being a take-over scorer or not being a winner are what's really holding him back from being considered ahead of those two, contrary to what he was actually doing out there...similar to our criticisms of David Robinson or Kevin Garnett, in fact.
Of the PGs left that had better peaks, none of them lasted nearly as long. I'm a big fan of Nash, but he doesn't have the longevity of Stockton, and that's not even because Nash had a short prime (he was an All-Star level PG from 01-04 in addition to his 05-10 run, along with a couple of impressive post-prime years in 11 and 12), but because Stockton had a ridiculously long one, and you can't really make the argument that Nash was having significantly more impact prime vs prime, when Stockton was doing this as far as the RAPM we have for him:
NPI RAPM 97: +3.88 (19th)
PI RAPM 98: +5.32 (7th) PI RAPM 99: +5.14 (11th) PI RAPM 00: +6.18 (8th)
Now beginning with Engelmann's data:
NPI RAPM 01: +5.76 (1st)
PI RAPM 02: +5.96 (3rd) PI RAPM 03: +5.36 (5th)
I also saw some numbers from 95 and 96 in which Stockton looked very impressive as well. Didn't post them, because not sure where they're from though.
Fundamentals21 wrote:Starting to wonder if there are way too many modern players being discussed in the 20's.
Wade, Nash, Westbrook, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry. Then we have Stockton, Ewing, Pippen (90's). Where are the 80's, 70's 60's guys? No one outside of Pettit?
If I put forward a list (in no order) of:
Mikan Stockton Nash Pippen Wade Havlicek Barry Baylor Ewing Paul Durant Petit Westbrook Curry
that would actually bring us all the way out to 34 without even talking about Frazier, Drexler, Kidd, Thomas, Iverson etc. etc.
So I mean we could easily get too many of the guys (especially guys without longevity like Curry/Westbrook) too high in the group, but we'll be well on the way to 40 before the whole group is cleared. And for active guys, Durant and Wade are the only guaranteed 20-somethings for me.
My #1 criteria is the number of "Great Years" each player accumulated in their careers; "Great Years" defined as: getting selected ALL-League 1st-Team or 2nd-Team. Accumulating several of these says that you dominated YOUR position in YOUR era.
These are the only three guys with 10 ALL-League 1st-Team selections not yet chosen for our GOAT list. A "decade's" worth of domination of the players at their position is a tremendous achievement (only achieved by a total of 10 players in the 80 years of 1938 season to 2017 season!) Of those ten, only three (K.Malone, Kobe & LeBron) have 11 1st-Team selections. In other words, these three could hardly have done more.
Besides, each of them revolutionized their respective positions. We've been (collectively) putting players on our GOAT list with FAR LESS positional-era-dominance. I don't much see what more they could have done to "satisfy" this board?
Imo, all three of these guys should go next.
Permit me to add: the selectors are IDEALLY suited - it was/is their job to report on the sport; and COLLECTIVELY, there are enough of them to override pretty much any and all personal, "homerist" biases. Imo, their selection process TRUMPS all stats or combinations of them. I'd also note, that over the last 58 years of NBA-NBL-ABA "rabidity", I've never once had a MAJOR objection to their selections.
Further, there are only 22 players in total who even accumulated at least 6 1st-Team ALL-League selections - showing just how difficult getting TEN is.
btw, I consider Elgin Baylor to have been a superior player to both Pettit & Cousy (and, along with Jerry West, he's my co- All-Time favorite player - because of their bi-racial harmony and artistry (and pretty equal in skills). I vote Pettit & Cousy OVER Elgin because I consider it more important that there be more POSITIONAL balance in a GOAT list. I accomplish that balance by selecting one player per position per descending set of 5 GOAT spots. (Example, my GOAT Top 5: KAJ, Magic, MJ, LBJ & TD).
Surely, bigs, especially Centers have historically (especially until about the turn of the century) a bigger influence on Defense. But, generally speaking, the smaller the position / player the more they: run around, cut, stop-and-go, dribble, pass, etc. For me, this almost equals the bigs' defensive advantage. Combining the two factors, while I have, as I said, one player form each position in each descending set of 5 GOAT spots; I always have the Center as the highest ranked.
Fundamentals21 wrote:Starting to wonder if there are way too many modern players being discussed in the 20's.
Wade, Nash, Westbrook, Chris Paul, Kevin Durant, Steph Curry. Then we have Stockton, Ewing, Pippen (90's). Where are the 80's, 70's 60's guys? No one outside of Pettit?
Can't speak to the 80s without more research but there was a massive dropoff in the 60s after Russ, Wilt, West, and Oscar . . . and the best remaining player was most likely 50s star Bob Pettit (then Baylor and Lucas). The 70s also are an era where there was a massive dropoff after Kareem in the NBA and Erving in the ABA.
Bob Pettit was the dominant player in the 50s between Mikan and Russell and remained a top 5 player even as the game drastically changed from the set shot/hook shot era of the 50s into the more modern game of the 60s. Although not as spectacular as Elgin Baylor, he was more efficient, a better rebounder, and stronger defensively though Baylor's playmaking is superior. John Stockton is the choice if you value longevity; he ran ATG offenses at Utah despite having weak players at C and PF; only 4 years of truly ATG v. 6 for Nash but Nash had better offensive players around him and a personnel system where D'Antoni sacrificed defense to create mismatches and Stockton easily outmatches Nash in durability and defensive impact. Two modern players are in the mix too. Kevin Durant has a decade as a top 5 player in the league even if he's never been #1. Stephen Curry had one of the GOAT seasons in 2016 and two others where he was in consideration of best player our of his short 7 year (has it been that long?) career. He also deserves a mention but I am not sure he deserves to be ahead of Durant yet though he's well on the way. I am open to change weighting in the Durant/Curry debate, Doc hasn't convinced me yet but others can chime in.
Although he played in the weakest NBA era, George Mikan is 2 levels above anyone else left in terms of dominance. He put up Jordan level scoring numbers (relative to his peers), great rebounding, and from all reports, was the dominant defender of the early 50s as well. He dominated physically with his strength and athleticism (he wasn't appreciably taller than his peer, but he was built strong . . . like Shaq v. Shawn Bradley wasn't about height). He won consistently, almost every year during his prime. He is the only truly dominant player left with more than a 3 year or so resume.
Vote: George Mikan Alternate: Kevin Durant
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
I. In my "Stats" category, which adds up the number of times a player was Top 5 in 18 or 19 differently weighted categories, Pettit is 3rd among remaining players. The players ahead of him - Gilmore and Stockton, clearly don't have his pedigree as dominant players. See:
II. Pettit is 1st among remaining players in my MVP Voting metric, whereas Stockton is a nonentity, and Gilmore is a blip with 1/8 the score of Pettit.
III. Havlicek has 1.5 "Best on Champs," putting him in elite company among remaining players, as only four other remaining players can match this total. Amongst those players (Mikan, Isiah Thomas, Dave Cowens, Steph Curry), Havlicek's career totals in both the regular season and the playoffs are the best by a huge margin.
All human life on the earth is like grass, and all human glory is like a flower in a field. The grass dries up and its flower falls off, but the Lord’s word endures forever.
I miss #20 list but I think the guy I would have vote for Moses got in.
At #21, we can start discussing current player. With my formula, there are two strong current players worthy of #21 despite not done playing yet, Wade and CP3.
Wade is a 3x champ, 1 as undisputed best player. Never won an MVP but got an impressive peak 2006 and 2009. Strong 7-years prime and an underrated defender.
CP3 is an offensive genius, led the NBA history in ORtg. While he does not possess the winning pedigree as Wade, he has the stat to back up his impact. At this point, I'm going with Wade. He's a stronger peak and more impactful on the defensive end. He's more explosive in his prime and show he can be the alpha on a championship team.
2klegend wrote:I miss #20 list but I think the guy I would have vote for Moses got in.
At #21, we can start discussing current player. With my formula, there are two strong current players worthy of #21 despite not done playing yet, Wade and CP3.
Wade is a 3x champ, 1 as undisputed best player. Never won an MVP but got an impressive peak 2006 and 2009. Strong 7-years prime and an underrated defender.
CP3 is an offensive genius, led the NBA history in ORtg. While he does not possess the winning pedigree as Wade, he has the stat to back up his impact. At this point, I'm going with Wade. He's a stronger peak and more impactful on the defensive end. He's more explosive in his prime and show he can be the alpha on a championship team.
1st Vote: Wade 2nd Vote: CP3
To anyone voting for Chris Paul anytime soon...a few questions that stump me...
How do you reconcile the complete lack of postseason success?
Who is the next player you'll be ranking who has never made it past the conference semifinals?
How much do you negative intangibles like that fact that he has a reputation for being difficult to play with, hasn't elevated any of his teams games notably and has never attracted big name free agents to play with him?
2klegend wrote:I miss #20 list but I think the guy I would have vote for Moses got in.
At #21, we can start discussing current player. With my formula, there are two strong current players worthy of #21 despite not done playing yet, Wade and CP3.
Wade is a 3x champ, 1 as undisputed best player. Never won an MVP but got an impressive peak 2006 and 2009. Strong 7-years prime and an underrated defender.
CP3 is an offensive genius, led the NBA history in ORtg. While he does not possess the winning pedigree as Wade, he has the stat to back up his impact. At this point, I'm going with Wade. He's a stronger peak and more impactful on the defensive end. He's more explosive in his prime and show he can be the alpha on a championship team.
1st Vote: Wade 2nd Vote: CP3
To anyone voting for Chris Paul anytime soon...a few questions that stump me...
How do you reconcile the complete lack of postseason success?
Who is the next player you'll be ranking who has never made it past the conference semifinals?
How much do you negative intangibles like that fact that he has a reputation for being difficult to play with, hasn't elevated any of his teams games notably and has never attracted big name free agents to play with him?
His postseason woe can be attributed to bad luck, injury and just random hiccup playing in a tough conference in the strongest era for Western Conference between 08-17. But he performed very well in the postseason. His consistency in the regular season is unmatched by any PG. He is the most efficient running PG in the game. His stat shows his prime is around +25-26 PER, +.200WS48, and around +8 BPM. With those numbers, he is a Top 3 PG in the league. He is just a better player than Stockton, Nash, Kidd or any current PG if we look pass his playoff success. Like I said, some misfortune and injury can ruin a player playoff success. He's in a similar situation to Tmac/Yao but was more lucky to play longer. There is still hope he will reach WF someday by the time his career end.
Those negative intangibles mean nothing to me in the grand scheme of thing. Kobe/MJ are hard to play with and they're fine. Salary cap and in bad market can explain lack of free agent signing. You can give credit to CP3 to making Jordan resigning with the Clippers.
2klegend wrote:I miss #20 list but I think the guy I would have vote for Moses got in.
At #21, we can start discussing current player. With my formula, there are two strong current players worthy of #21 despite not done playing yet, Wade and CP3.
Wade is a 3x champ, 1 as undisputed best player. Never won an MVP but got an impressive peak 2006 and 2009. Strong 7-years prime and an underrated defender.
CP3 is an offensive genius, led the NBA history in ORtg. While he does not possess the winning pedigree as Wade, he has the stat to back up his impact. At this point, I'm going with Wade. He's a stronger peak and more impactful on the defensive end. He's more explosive in his prime and show he can be the alpha on a championship team.
1st Vote: Wade 2nd Vote: CP3
To anyone voting for Chris Paul anytime soon...a few questions that stump me...
How do you reconcile the complete lack of postseason success?
Who is the next player you'll be ranking who has never made it past the conference semifinals?
How much do you negative intangibles like that fact that he has a reputation for being difficult to play with, hasn't elevated any of his teams games notably and has never attracted big name free agents to play with him?
He usually gets a pass because he put up good to great numbers in the playoffs, but he still to me seemed to lack a certain aggressiveness when it mattered. There are times where he did have it, but just not consistently enough. I've never really been sold on a 5'11, 6 foot(if we're generous) point guard having that big an impact on team defense. He could easily get posted up by bigger guards for example. I remember Westbrook having one of the best series of his careers against Cp3.
I don't think he really has any argument over Wade, or Pettit and his case against the likes of Nash, and Stockton isn't very strong imo.
2klegend wrote:I miss #20 list but I think the guy I would have vote for Moses got in.
At #21, we can start discussing current player. With my formula, there are two strong current players worthy of #21 despite not done playing yet, Wade and CP3.
Wade is a 3x champ, 1 as undisputed best player. Never won an MVP but got an impressive peak 2006 and 2009. Strong 7-years prime and an underrated defender.
CP3 is an offensive genius, led the NBA history in ORtg. While he does not possess the winning pedigree as Wade, he has the stat to back up his impact. At this point, I'm going with Wade. He's a stronger peak and more impactful on the defensive end. He's more explosive in his prime and show he can be the alpha on a championship team.
1st Vote: Wade 2nd Vote: CP3
To anyone voting for Chris Paul anytime soon...a few questions that stump me...
How do you reconcile the complete lack of postseason success?
Who is the next player you'll be ranking who has never made it past the conference semifinals?
How much do you negative intangibles like that fact that he has a reputation for being difficult to play with, hasn't elevated any of his teams games notably and has never attracted big name free agents to play with him?
I don't have a vote so if this comment is off topic, please mods delete. But I have to address a part of this. When realistically could a free agent have joined with him? The clippers more or less have been a 3 star team with a GM who's been just terrible imo. Before that he was on a team that the league had to take ownership of and they were hardly looking to take on expenses. That seems like a really bad argument against Paul. I think the rest of what you posted is a really good and valid set of questions. But someone has to be the best guy who never made the conference finals, right?
Chris Paul is such an interesting case, because his stats and advanced stats are absolutely incredible but his lacking of PS success will likely hold him back, or not? We are talking about a 25.7 PER, 7.8 BPM player for 12 seasons and he is still in his prime. His PER and BPM both ranks 2nd all time for all the guards only after MJ. Imagine Paul plays 18 seasons with 2 more prime seasons , even without any PS success it's really hard to put him after 15..Looks like Paul might be the guard of KG when it's all said and done.
