PC Board OT Thread Take 4 [No Politics]

[Colbinii]

Also if ravens win the bowl it would be fun to have superbowl wins in 2000, 2012 and 2024

The Ravens are just a really well run franchise which is why they've consistently put out good teams over a very long timeperiod.

If I was from Cleveland fantasizing that could have been us would drive me crazy.

What are the most well run franchises in the NFL and NBA?
-Patriots
-Steelers
-Packers
-Ravens
-Spurs
-Celtics
-Heat
?

How do you define well run?

The reason Miami is so successful is because their Owner is willing to stay in the Tax. If the owner wasn't willing to stay in the Tax, then I doubt Riley and Co have the same success with a cheaper owner. The other reason they are so good is they have a GOAT level coach. Is that part of being well run?

I guess what I am getting at is how do we define "Well Run"? I think it is important to remember not all Owner's have the same luxury of going into the Tax, in part because of their own wealth, but also the team. Golden State is worth a lot more than Utah, and that directly affects the ability and willingness to go into the Tax. Going into the Tax directly affects how competitive you can be.

Furthermore, drafting a Star and having a healthy star aren't necessarily a difficult thing. Do we reward the Spurs for drafting Wemby, the obvious #1 pick? If the Spurs are great for the next 15 years, do they all of a sudden get a bonus when they were able to draft him #1 while when the Magic won the Lottery they could only get Paolo Banchero--who very well was a much more difficult selection at #1 overall with Chet/Jabari right there in the conversation.

[Colbinii]

Also if ravens win the bowl it would be fun to have superbowl wins in 2000, 2012 and 2024

The Ravens are just a really well run franchise which is why they've consistently put out good teams over a very long timeperiod.

If I was from Cleveland fantasizing that could have been us would drive me crazy.

What are the most well run franchises in the NFL and NBA?
-Patriots
-Steelers
-Packers
-Ravens
-Spurs
-Celtics
-Heat
?

What makes the Patriots well run? They haven't been able to draft for a decade. They rode the coat tails of Tom Brady and clearly should have moved on from Belichek when they moved on from Brady. They made an awful decision in staying with Bill, and it costs them a lot.

The Steelers haven't been able to land a QB in 5+ years, is it really impressive to be on the treadmill?

The Packers lucked into Favre but got Rodgers and then Love looks great. As a Vikings fan, I am jealous.

The Ravens almost squandered the Lamar situation, and less than 12 months later are a game away from the Super Bowl. Does the best run franchise do that to a QB of his caliber?

Celtics are a great franchise.

Less sold on the Spurs and Heat for reasons I said previously.

[sp6r=underrated]

The other reason they are so good is they have a GOAT level coach. Is that part of being well run?

I definitely factor coaching hires in management quality. It reflects well of Miami that they steadily promoted a guy who came over from the prior regime.

[Colbinii]

The other reason they are so good is they have a GOAT level coach. Is that part of being well run?

I definitely factor coaching hires in management quality. It reflects well of Miami that they steadily promoted a guy who came over from the prior regime.

Yes, it all matters and all of it is also contextual.

[sp6r=underrated]

[quote="Colbinii"][/quote]

Football is a lot easier to tell management than basketball. And Baltimore/Pittsburgh are extremely well run franchises. Baltimore has a 57% winning percentage since the move to Baltimore nearly 3 decades ago despite not being able to land a franchise QB for most of that run. Pittsburgh hasn't had a losing season in decades. They've resisted the urge to fire good coaches the way a lot of franchises do.

Partly, I think fans overly weigh titles in evaluating franchise quality.

[Colbinii]

Football is a lot easier to tell management than basketball. And Baltimore/Pittsburgh are extremely well run franchises. Baltimore has a 57% winning percentage since the move to Baltimore nearly 3 decades ago despite not being able to land a franchise QB for most of that run. Pittsburgh hasn't had a losing season in decades. They've resisted the urge to fire good coaches the way a lot of franchises do.

Partly, I think fans overly weigh titles in evaluating franchise quality.

Yup. Minnesota Vikings are an extremely well run franchise.

[sp6r=underrated]

Football is a lot easier to tell management than basketball. And Baltimore/Pittsburgh are extremely well run franchises. Baltimore has a 57% winning percentage since the move to Baltimore nearly 3 decades ago despite not being able to land a franchise QB for most of that run. Pittsburgh hasn't had a losing season in decades. They've resisted the urge to fire good coaches the way a lot of franchises do.

Partly, I think fans overly weigh titles in evaluating franchise quality.

Yup. Minnesota Vikings are an extremely well run franchise.

Yes, Vikings are an excellent example of a well run franchise sans titles.

[HeartBreakKid]

I only root for well ran franchises

[penbeast0]

I only root for well ran franchises

Strange, growing up in Washington, I became a Redskin and Bullets fan when they were very and reasonably well run franchises (though the Capitals/Squires never were and I did switch my ABA allegiance to Kentucky when the Squires moved to Richmond). Then the Bullets/Wizard became one of the worst run franchises in the NBA for the last 40+ years and, after a longer run of competence, the Redskins were bought by Dan Snyder who arguably is the worst professional sports owner since Donald Sterling.

[sp6r=underrated]

I only root for well ran franchises

Strange, growing up in Washington, I became a Redskin and Bullets fan when they were very and reasonably well run franchises (though the Capitals/Squires never were and I did switch my ABA allegiance to Kentucky when the Squires moved to Richmond). Then the Bullets/Wizard became one of the worst run franchises in the NBA for the last 40+ years and, after a longer run of competence, the Redskins were bought by Dan Snyder who arguably is the worst professional sports owner since Donald Sterling.

Going from Jack Kent Cooke to Dan Snyder is a historic drop off on par with the 98 and 99 bulls

[Doctor MJ]

The other reason they are so good is they have a GOAT level coach. Is that part of being well run?

I definitely factor coaching hires in management quality. It reflects well of Miami that they steadily promoted a guy who came over from the prior regime.

Yeah, in general a great coach gives major points in my book when considering a well-run organization. Not saying there can't be exceptions, but Miami's an example of it being a definite "Yes".

When you're talking about "home-grown coaching talent", that's something that almost doesn't exist, and I think it's pretty dang clear that a great coaching talent starting as a video guy could easily never get consider for promotion through to head coach within an organization.

When you identify talent that others would have missed entirely,
groom that talent that others wouldn't prioritized,
and mentor that talent so that he can become the very best in the profession,
that you as long-time GM previously did yourself and were considered by many to be the very best,
that's a gold standard.

Then there's the matter that post-Heatles their success hasn't been based on out-pitching other franchises in campaigns for top tier players, but from

a) betting on stars that other franchises had discarded, and mostly succeeding
b) drafting players who become all-stars and/or outperform their draft position
c) taking undrafted (or very low drafted) players can getting them to the point where they have to decide whether to pay what other teams are now willing to pay
d) and they literally have a culture that the players seem proud to buy into

I'm not sure there's another franchise so-all-around in its ability to add competitive advantage over their competitors.

In the past, the Spurs were the gold standard, but I think we have actual concerns at this point.

The Celtics arguably have had the most value-add organizational run for a while now over the combined reins of Ainge-Stevens, but they've had some blindspots that ended up costing them.

Same for Presti's rein in OKC.

Ainge is over in Utah and off to a great start, but I'd rather watch that unfold more.

I will shout out Denver, and I think their owner - Josh Kroenke - might actually be the throughline there. They of course got very lucky with Jokic, but they very easily could have blown that, and I think they've made wise decisions so far across their GMs. I'm reluctant to conclude that an owner has a secret sauce - I think any organization can go temporarily sideways with some bad luck - but the thing is Kroenke was actually a college basketball player.

Being a player obviously doesn't mean you know how to run a team, but what I mean here is that this isn't a Jim Buss situation, where a overconfident ne'er-do-well son who spent his athletic youth primarily on another sport thinks he knows basketball as good as anyone. When Kroenke is letting these successful GMs go after they become expensive, well, if the new GMs keep looking good and the decision making of the organization keeps looking good, you might know what you're doing.

[Colbinii]

I will shout out Denver, and I think their owner - Josh Kroenke - might actually be the throughline there. They of course got very lucky with Jokic, but they very easily could have blown that, and I think they've made wise decisions so far across their GMs. I'm reluctant to conclude that an owner has a secret sauce - I think any organization can go temporarily sideways with some bad luck - but the thing is Kroenke was actually a college basketball player.

The person who built up Denver has now built up Minnesota.

[Doctor MJ]

I will shout out Denver, and I think their owner - Josh Kroenke - might actually be the throughline there. They of course got very lucky with Jokic, but they very easily could have blown that, and I think they've made wise decisions so far across their GMs. I'm reluctant to conclude that an owner has a secret sauce - I think any organization can go temporarily sideways with some bad luck - but the thing is Kroenke was actually a college basketball player.

The person who built up Denver has now built up Minnesota.

And before Connolly there was Masai. I'm not knocking these guys, I'm saying that this guy might understand basketball and organizations well enough to recognize a good GM when he's hiring.

Now, we'll see what happens going forward, but I thought the addition of KCP & Brown last year was basically just what the team needed in order to surround the higher usage stars with in order to have a fundamentally solid team.

I will say also, while I don't want to tear Connolly down, I'm still not sure giving up everything for Gobert while keeping KAT was really a wise course of action. You say "built up", and a top 2 seed is certainly a positive thing, but I still think it unlikely this team really competes for a title with KAT on the roster.

[Colbinii]

I will shout out Denver, and I think their owner - Josh Kroenke - might actually be the throughline there. They of course got very lucky with Jokic, but they very easily could have blown that, and I think they've made wise decisions so far across their GMs. I'm reluctant to conclude that an owner has a secret sauce - I think any organization can go temporarily sideways with some bad luck - but the thing is Kroenke was actually a college basketball player.

The person who built up Denver has now built up Minnesota.

And before Connolly there was Masai. I'm not knocking these guys, I'm saying that this guy might understand basketball and organizations well enough to recognize a good GM when he's hiring.

Now, we'll see what happens going forward, but I thought the addition of KCP & Brown last year was basically just what the team needed in order to surround the higher usage stars with in order to have a fundamentally solid team.

I will say also, while I don't want to tear Connolly down, I'm still not sure giving up everything for Gobert while keeping KAT was really a wise course of action. You say "built up", and a top 2 seed is certainly a positive thing, but I still think it unlikely this team really competes for a title with KAT on the roster.

Both KCP/Brown were crucial, but taking a chance on the injured MPJ and then trading for the perfect compliment to Jokic in Aaron Gordon were perfect acquisitions, especially AG.

[penbeast0]

Remember about KAT that everyone was slamming the Gobert trade at the time with very few exceptions. And yet, he's been exactly the difference maker that Minnesota thought he would be once he was healthy. How many playoffs had they been to before this year?

I like the experiment with KAT and Gobert when everyone else is going small ball 4; maybe because I'm not as high on Anthony Edwards as an MVP playoff leader as everyone else seems to be so I think you need to take some chances. Keeping KAT trades offense for defense as teams starting a wing at the 4 like so many are doing won't be able to guard him while he won't be able to guard them either but you can hide him on a 3 and D guy and force them to hunt switches while Gobert keeps them from burning you with slashing. Right now it's working, let's see what happens in the playoffs when teams can adjust more capably.

[Dr Positivity]

Some very random 50s/60s NBA thoughts right now as I'm doing a little research project

Spoiler:

- While I still think they came out ahead, St. Louis pays back a bit of their Russell injury luck in 58. Slater is injured the next two playoffs, leading to 1959 upset by Lakers and in 1960 it hurts as they lose in 7 games in the finals. In 1961 Lovellette misses last two games of CF (which they manage to win) and first 2 games of Finals and plays half minutes the rest contributing to their worst performance against the Celtics losing 4-1.

- My favorite Russell series so far (up to 62): In 61 CF against Syracuse not only does he put up 21, 30 and 5 which is one of his best statlines on his own, but the circumstantial evidence for his D looks compelling. The Costello and Greer backcourt is like the two fastest guards in the league, and seems like the Warriors can't handle the matchup as Costello averages 24ppg on 53% FG and Greer 23ppg on 47% in shocking sweep. Against the Celtics Costello averages 12ppg on 31% and Greer 9ppg on 29% (minutes collapse by the end)... YIKES. Unfortunately I can't find any contemporary articles saying they got eaten up by Russell, but it would make all the sense in the world if speed demon backcourt was vulnerable to elite shotblocking and center transition D. If true when added to the 21/30/5... that's a hella dominant series.

- It looks to me like Dick Barnett (who was on the above Syracuse team and the one actually playing well against the Celtics) may be an underrated player. When rating SGs in 61 season I was surprised that his year looked almost as good as Sam Jones, putting up 23 pts per 36 but playing a little less minutes due to being on Greer's team, then he goes on to play for Lakers and Knicks contenders, being the second highest scorer on 1970 playoff run. He is also known as a good/great defender (was the one guarding West most of the series despite being older) and high IQ, glue guy style that fit in great with the Knicks. For that reason I nominate 1963 as the best West/Baylor team before Wilt, as Barnett overlaps with the pre surgery version of Baylor for one year.

- Al Attles career seems like if KC Jones was on a non dynasty and therefore not as famous. Sick defense for a PG earning him the nickname THE DESTROYER, ok offense overall. I like 62 Wilt's supporting cast the most for his Warriors teams. They still have Arizin and Gola while getting Attles and Meschery who while nothing special is at least a starter talent I guess and puts up 20pts in 62 playoffs. It seems like Attles is a good candidate for 2nd most valuable on 64 Warriors as well.

- The Knicks may as well be owned by Dolan in this era. They have some great scoring guys like Guerin, Naulls and the hyper efficient Sears, and yet they always seem to be not just mediocre, but flat out suck (they do have one decent 40-32 season in 59). We give guys like Bellamy, Dantley and Maravich a hard time but Guerin is definitely up there for the all time good stats bad team runs, they are sub 30 Ws in all four of his best seasons.

[penbeast0]

Not sure the Destroyer nickname was there for Attles's defense though he was a good defender. I always thought it was because he was the first guy ready to throw down at any opportunity.

Favorite Barnett story is that after his playing days, he had his eyes checked and it turns out that his vision was (and had presumably always had been) poor. He said that as a jump shooter, he didn't really need to see the rim clearly as much as to have a soft high arching shot and it would fall in anyway. "Fall Back, Baby."

[sp6r=underrated]

Read on Twitter

This is a very important sports story. I think people under appreciate how big of an impact it will have on American sports once NCAA universities are able to offer direct contracts to players.

These universities have enormous tv deals and they will be able to offer a lot of money to players once the cartel fully collapses.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/34417911/big-ten-completes-7-year-7-billion-media-rights-agreement-fox-cbs-nbc

The Big Ten has completed a new seven-year media rights agreement with Fox, CBS and NBC that is set to bring in more than $7 billion to one of the nation's most powerful athletic conferences.

The deal will begin July 1, 2023, and run through the end of the 2029-30 athletic year. Specific terms were not disclosed, but a financial windfall won't come immediately, according to media sources. The CBS payout in Year 1 of the agreement is lower since it still will be carrying SEC games during the 2023 season and will air only seven Big Ten contests that fall. But the Big Ten's per-school distribution will turn upward in Year 2 of the deal, when new members USC and UCLA enter the conference. Revenue will rise substantially beginning in Year 3.

The Big Ten is projected to eventually distribute $80 million to $100 million per year to each of its 16 members. According to USA Today, the league distributed $54.3 million to most of its members during the most recent fiscal year (2019-20) not impacted by the coronavirus pandemic.

[Special_Puppy]

Read on Twitter

This is a very important sports story. I think people under appreciate how big of an impact it will have on American sports once NCAA universities are able to offer direct contracts to players.

These universities have enormous tv deals and they will be able to offer a lot of money to players once the cartel fully collapses.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/34417911/big-ten-completes-7-year-7-billion-media-rights-agreement-fox-cbs-nbc

The Big Ten has completed a new seven-year media rights agreement with Fox, CBS and NBC that is set to bring in more than $7 billion to one of the nation's most powerful athletic conferences.

The deal will begin July 1, 2023, and run through the end of the 2029-30 athletic year. Specific terms were not disclosed, but a financial windfall won't come immediately, according to media sources. The CBS payout in Year 1 of the agreement is lower since it still will be carrying SEC games during the 2023 season and will air only seven Big Ten contests that fall. But the Big Ten's per-school distribution will turn upward in Year 2 of the deal, when new members USC and UCLA enter the conference. Revenue will rise substantially beginning in Year 3.

The Big Ten is projected to eventually distribute $80 million to $100 million per year to each of its 16 members. According to USA Today, the league distributed $54.3 million to most of its members during the most recent fiscal year (2019-20) not impacted by the coronavirus pandemic.

Players getting ~nothing when the coaches can be paid millions a year in some cases has always been absolutely insane. Hopefully the system is collapsing

[sp6r=underrated]

Read on Twitter

This is a very important sports story. I think people under appreciate how big of an impact it will have on American sports once NCAA universities are able to offer direct contracts to players.

These universities have enormous tv deals and they will be able to offer a lot of money to players once the cartel fully collapses.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/34417911/big-ten-completes-7-year-7-billion-media-rights-agreement-fox-cbs-nbc

The Big Ten has completed a new seven-year media rights agreement with Fox, CBS and NBC that is set to bring in more than $7 billion to one of the nation's most powerful athletic conferences.

The deal will begin July 1, 2023, and run through the end of the 2029-30 athletic year. Specific terms were not disclosed, but a financial windfall won't come immediately, according to media sources. The CBS payout in Year 1 of the agreement is lower since it still will be carrying SEC games during the 2023 season and will air only seven Big Ten contests that fall. But the Big Ten's per-school distribution will turn upward in Year 2 of the deal, when new members USC and UCLA enter the conference. Revenue will rise substantially beginning in Year 3.

The Big Ten is projected to eventually distribute $80 million to $100 million per year to each of its 16 members. According to USA Today, the league distributed $54.3 million to most of its members during the most recent fiscal year (2019-20) not impacted by the coronavirus pandemic.

Players getting ~nothing when the coaches can be paid millions a year in some cases has always been absolutely insane. Hopefully the system is collapsing

The impact of this system collapsing will be enormous. As an example, take the NFL rookie salary scale.

In the second round of the Draft, contracts will be worth between $6 million and $12 million. The first pick in the third round can sign a deal worth $6.25 million while the last pick in the third will have to settle for a $5.4 million deal.

Fourth rounders will get between $4.5 million and $5.4 million. Fifth rounders will all get more than $4 million and less than $5 million. The first pick in the sixth round will get $4.1 million and the last pick in the sixth (No. 217) will get $3.98 million. Slightly more than $3.925 million that Mr. Irrelevant, pick No. 259, will make.

Big-Ten/SEC teams generate enough revenue to outbid the 4th and 5th round.