2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[ardee]

The league is just too talented now, a lot of guys are going to get left off All-NBA teams each year now that would have otherwise made it for sure.

[penbeast0]

Too talented or just the rules and coaching styles are showcasing the teams' top scorers more than historical norms so it feels that way.

[Special_Puppy]

Man i hate the change to positionless. Will see how my opinion ages but just dont like it rn

Why?

[Dutchball97]

Too talented or just the rules and coaching styles are showcasing the teams' top scorers more than historical norms so it feels that way.

Which players are you alluding to with this? Because tbh I don't really see a whole lot of Bradley Beal-like empty calorie scorers being talked about as potential All-NBA guys.

[Colbinii]

Too talented or just the rules and coaching styles are showcasing the teams' top scorers more than historical norms so it feels that way.

You think the league isn't as talented now as it was in the past?

I'd like that explained, how teams have far more players with NBA skills (Shooting, Passing, ect) yet the players aren't more talented.

[penbeast0]

Not a particular player, just an increased trend toward having your star scorers also be primary playmakers and away from the 2 bigs teams which means that the scorers will tend on the average to have better assist and rebound percentages without teams having the pass first PG and the dirty work rebounding big type players playing as many minutes. Thus the scorers will also be able to demonstrate a more rounded game than in earlier eras where those type of roleplayers were more common.

Not sure this is true but it seems to be the case.

[Fadeaway_J]

Not a particular player, just an increased trend toward having your star scorers also be primary playmakers and away from the 2 bigs teams which means that the scorers will tend on the average to have better assist and rebound percentages without teams having the pass first PG and the dirty work rebounding big type players playing as many minutes. Thus the scorers will also be able to demonstrate a more rounded game than in earlier eras where those type of roleplayers were more common.

Not sure this is true but it seems to be the case.

Never mind the stars, the role players are definitely more talented and required to do more than a couple of decades ago.

[penbeast0]

Never mind the stars, the role players are definitely more talented and required to do more than a couple of decades ago.

Not sure about this. A lot more 3 and D players, a lot less big men role players, possibly (not sure) less pass first playmakers, not sure at all whether there are more instant offense guys or less. Used to be that the Bruce Bowan type of limited skill guys that could only shoot but hustled on defense were rare, now they are common. Used to be that the Charles Oakley type of physical bruiser who did a lot of the pick setting and the like that would play next to the rim protector were common, now they are rare. Different skills rather than one being more skilled.

There are indeed more skilled players total thanks to the great improvement in world basketball greatly increasing the player pool plus not having expansion in a long time to balance it out so in that I certainly agree with you but that wasn't the point I was making.

[Fadeaway_J]

Not a particular player, just an increased trend toward having your star scorers also be primary playmakers and away from the 2 bigs teams which means that the scorers will tend on the average to have better assist and rebound percentages without teams having the pass first PG and the dirty work rebounding big type players playing as many minutes. Thus the scorers will also be able to demonstrate a more rounded game than in earlier eras where those type of roleplayers were more common.

Not sure this is true but it seems to be the case.

Never mind the stars, the role players are definitely more talented and required to do more than a couple of decades ago.

Not sure about this. A lot more 3 and D players, a lot less big men role players, possibly (not sure) less pass first playmakers, not sure at all whether there are more instant offense guys or less. Used to be that the Bruce Bowan type of limited skill guys that could only shoot but hustled on defense were rare, now they are common. Used to be that the Charles Oakley type of physical bruiser who did a lot of the pick setting and the like that would play next to the rim protector were common, now they are rare.

To be honest, a lot of the Bruce Bowens back then weren't even as good at shooting as Bruce Bowen. You had guys like Michael Curry, Trenton Hassell, Adrian Griffin, Greg Buckner, young Raja Bell, Ruben Patterson, etc. being rotation wing players despite either having no jumper to speak of or just spotting up for inefficient midrangers.

The Bowens of today have to be able to get off higher volumes (often by being movement shooters like a KCP for example) from different areas of the court and can't just camp out in the corner forever. The ones who flat-out can't do anything offensively just don't play period, no matter how good they might be defensively. Similarly, guys like Oakley who did nothing but set picks and knock heads have been replaced by more versatilte defenders with an actual offensive skill (usually shooting).

[Ron Swanson]

I tend to fall on the side of the average role-player now being "more skilled" than yesteryear because I believe that to be objectively true, but I also don't think that "there are more Michael Coopers now than there were in 1985" is any sort of compelling argument for the league as a whole being significantly more talented now. That seems much more subjective and based on what you innately define as basketball talent vs. evolution of the sport and how players adapt. Like, does Duncan Robinson have an NBA role on any team before the advent of the 3PT line? Are all these bigs now bringing the ball up the court that much more skilled at dribbling, or is it just easier now with looser carrying rules? I don't really think it's as simple as "bigger player pool = better/more talent".

[penbeast0]

I tend to fall on the side of the average role-player now being "more skilled" than yesteryear because I believe that to be objectively true, but I also don't think that "there are more Michael Coopers now than there were in 1985" is any sort of compelling argument for the league as a whole being significantly more talented now. That seems much more subjective and based on what you innately define as basketball talent vs. evolution of the sport and how players adapt. Like, does Duncan Robinson have an NBA role on any team before the advent of the 3PT line? Are all these bigs now bringing the ball up the court that much more skilled at dribbling, or is it just easier now with looser carrying rules? I don't really think it's as simple as "bigger player pool = better/more talent".

For any individual comparison, it's not that simple but as you expand the parameters of your search to include more than the highest level outliers, it becomes more and more of a factor. So, I think it's a real thing when you talk about the league but not necessarily when you are trying to compare the skill sets of Matisse Thybulle and Tony Allen for example.

It's a different question than whether playing the enforcer role of a Charles Oakley requires more or less "skill" than playing the stretch 4 role of a PJ Tucker.

[Colbinii]

I tend to fall on the side of the average role-player now being "more skilled" than yesteryear because I believe that to be objectively true, but I also don't think that "there are more Michael Coopers now than there were in 1985" is any sort of compelling argument for the league as a whole being significantly more talented now. That seems much more subjective and based on what you innately define as basketball talent vs. evolution of the sport and how players adapt. Like, does Duncan Robinson have an NBA role on any team before the advent of the 3PT line? Are all these bigs now bringing the ball up the court that much more skilled at dribbling, or is it just easier now with looser carrying rules? I don't really think it's as simple as "bigger player pool = better/more talent".

For any individual comparison, it's not that simple but as you expand the parameters of your search to include more than the highest level outliers, it becomes more and more of a factor. So, I think it's a real thing when you talk about the league but not necessarily when you are trying to compare the skill sets of Matisse Thybulle and Tony Allen for example.

It's a different question than whether playing the enforcer role of a Charles Oakley requires more or less "skill" than playing the stretch 4 role of a PJ Tucker.

I mean, Oakley made an All-Star team while P.J. Tucker was probably never a Top 100 player in the League, maybe not even Top 150. If you are trying to compare them, that sort of shows the difference in Talent in the NBA.

I think being an "enforcer" is far less skillful than shooting a basketball and running DHO's and other sets with tons of player movement.

I would also argue that players today are more optimized--they have better and more efficient/effect workout plans and they have better understanding of how to maximize their bodies and minds and get the most out of their talent.

Players today tend to be better at basketball than in previous era's because player's are required to do more on the court with the amount of actions in a single possession.

[penbeast0]

Use Ricky Mahorn then, I don't want it to be about the individual players, just the role. And I'm not saying you are wrong; the enforcer role was more physically demanding, the 3 and D probably more mentally demanding.

[Colbinii]

Use Ricky Mahorn then, I don't want it to be about the individual players, just the role. And I'm not saying you are wrong; the enforcer role was more physically demanding, the 3 and D probably more mentally demanding.

3+D is also just an outdated term.

Herb Jones is up to over 3 Assists per 36 Minutes meanwhile Jaden McDaniels is at < 2 Assists per 36 Minutes.

3+D now requires you to be able to consistently hit 3's at an above league average clip [Considering the shots are either Corner 3's or uncontested Catch and shoot] and attack close-outs with a dribble move or shot fake, taking 2-3 dribbles in and then pass it to the open Corner 3 or back to the opposite wing.

These players aren't like Bruce Bowen where he would literally just stand in a corner. Look at Mikal Bridges, he had a full arsenal of a mid-range game he utilizes when he attacks a close-out aggressively.

[AEnigma]

PJ Tucker is the closest player remaining to that Bowen offensive archetype, but I am not sure he would be in the league anymore were he not specifically useful as a frontcourt option.

[Colbinii]

PJ Tucker is the closest player remaining to that Bowen offensive archetype, but I am not sure he would be in the league anymore were he not specifically useful as a frontcourt option.

Yup. His physical strength allowed him to guard larger wings (Durant, Kawhi, Butler, Tatum, ect) well enough to stay on the court in the playoffs, even though you were sacrificing offense to do so.

[Texas Chuck]

3&D definitely isn't outdated. Sure sometimes those guys have to attack a closeout or pick up some assists from making an extra pass to beat rotations, but those guys are still on the court to defend and are able to stay on the court because teams have to honor them from the stripe.

Just like the Mavs two rim runners have to sometimes play a Draymond-like role when teams blitz Luka, but make no mistake they play because they can protect the rim and provide vertical spacing. They are your classic modern rim rollers despite sometimes having to do more than that.

[Colbinii]

3&D definitely isn't outdated.

Right. 3+D players in today's league do so much more than shoot the 3 and defend.

[Texas Chuck]

3&D definitely isn't outdated.

Right. 3+D players in today's league do so much more than shoot the 3 and defend.

Not really. This is still very much the bulk of what they do. Some outgrow that role --- Mikal but mostly they defend and space. Sure they can do more. A few years ago Dallas had a ton of injuries and so Bullock had like a ten game stretch averging close to 20 points and provided some playmaker but when the bodies came back right back to why he was there, defend and space.

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[Colbinii]

3&D definitely isn't outdated.

Right. 3+D players in today's league do so much more than shoot the 3 and defend.

Not really. This is still very much the bulk of what they do. Some outgrow that role --- Mikal but mostly they defend and space. Sure they can do more. A few years ago Dallas had a ton of injuries and so Bullock had like a ten game stretch averging close to 20 points and provided some playmaker but when the bodies came back right back to why he was there, defend and space.

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I agree with everything here.

Older 3+D Player's couldn't necessarily replicate the depth of skill-set the players have. The current 3+D label includes many players who have a relatively diverse offensive skill-set. I'm talking far more than scoring--anyone in the NBA can score.