RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - General Thread

[tsherkin]

Jokic over Hakeem in the recent GB poll shows that the 1990s nostalgia starts to fall down.

It also highlights how much of a cesspool the GB is at times.

[70sFan]

Jokic over Hakeem in the recent GB poll shows that the 1990s nostalgia starts to fall down.

It also highlights how much of a cesspool the GB is at times.

No doubt about it, but it was still the cesspool that was always in love with 1990s stars. That's no longer the case, quite interesting shift.

I wouldn't put much out of that though, to me Hakeem peaked higher than Jokic anyway.

[tsherkin]

No doubt about it, but it was still the cesspool that was always in love with 1990s stars. That's no longer the case, quite interesting shift.

Indeed. It was somewhat inevitable, I guess.

I wouldn't put much out of that though, to me Hakeem peaked higher than Jokic anyway.

I'll take the other side of that one.

[OhayoKD]

Jokic over Hakeem in the recent GB poll shows that the 1990s nostalgia starts to fall down.

It also highlights how much of a cesspool the GB is at times.

No doubt about it, but it was still the cesspool that was always in love with 1990s stars. That's no longer the case, quite interesting shift.

I wouldn't put much out of that though, to me Hakeem peaked higher than Jokic anyway.

90's all-in-ones are doing some heavy-lifting tbf

[penbeast0]

Something I've noticed is that I tend to be much more willing to ding players for what I perceive to be acting like a selfish jerk. Jordan got in before I voted for him, Barkley, Kawhi, and now Rick Barry (there may have been others). Maybe it's my coaching background; I always felt I could make things work with players that would cooperate even with less talent where the selfish type that thought they were superstars and everyone else was just their supporting cast always seemed to produce unsuccessful seasons.

[tsherkin]

Something I've noticed is that I tend to be much more willing to ding players for what I perceive to be acting like a selfish jerk. Jordan got in before I voted for him, Barkley, Kawhi, and now Rick Barry (there may have been others). Maybe it's my coaching background; I always felt I could make things work with players that would cooperate even with less talent where the selfish type that thought they were superstars and everyone else was just their supporting cast always seemed to produce unsuccessful seasons.

For some guys, it doesn't matter. You put the right players around them, and people might not be thrilled in the RS, but it gets worked out during the playoffs. For some guys, less so. I guess it's proportionate to how good you are and how much that contributes to winning.

The number of guys who are at the apex of their profession, sport or otherwise, who aren't kind of dicks, is lower than those who are based on the typical template personalities who reach those levels.

[penbeast0]

I'm not saying I wouldn't vote for a dick (I voted for Wilt who has issues of his own) or that you can't win with that kind of personality (MJ was the second greatest winner in the project so far), I'm saying I think I rate being a good person, teammate, and role model a bit higher than the consensus of the project.

[tsherkin]

I'm not saying I wouldn't vote for a dick (I voted for Wilt who has issues of his own) or that you can't win with that kind of personality (MJ was the second greatest winner in the project so far), I'm saying I think I rate being a good person, teammate, and role model a bit higher than the consensus of the project.

Yeah, I'm just trying to flesh out the thought, right? If their personality doesn't impede winning, does it matter?

Not to suggest that your thought is wrong, but I couldn't care less if a player is a role model if they are good enough to push the team towards a title. Within reason, I guess. There are some things which obviously you cannot tolerate, after all. But if he's just abrasive and moody and what-not, then that's challenging, but there is some threshold of talent past which that means very little, I'd imagine.

[penbeast0]

Well, if it matters to me for Michael Jordan, I don't think there's a talent threshold for me. I think there's a jerk head threshold. I will root for Wilt or Shawn Marion, but not Rick Barry or Charles Barkley unless they fall a lot more.

[tsherkin]

Well, if it matters to me for Michael Jordan, I don't think there's a talent threshold for me. I think there's a jerk head threshold. I will root for Wilt or Shawn Marion, but not Rick Barry or Charles Barkley unless they fall a lot more.

And of course, that's your business. This is all subjective, after all. Barry and Barkley both hit a point where you wonder if they have the prerequisite talent to keep doing it, right?

I guess my point was, with someone like Jordan and the way he was able to keep it together for such an extended run... does it really matter? At what point do you sacrifice team success because you don't like your lead star?

[penbeast0]

Well, if it matters to me for Michael Jordan, I don't think there's a talent threshold for me. I think there's a jerk head threshold. I will root for Wilt or Shawn Marion, but not Rick Barry or Charles Barkley unless they fall a lot more.

And of course, that's your business. This is all subjective, after all. Barry and Barkley both hit a point where you wonder if they have the prerequisite talent to keep doing it, right?

I guess my point was, with someone like Jordan and the way he was able to keep it together for such an extended run... does it really matter? At what point do you sacrifice team success because you don't like your lead star?

Basically relative to others at the same level. I have both Russell and LeBron over him, but not Kareem. If he had Tim Duncan's personality but the same success, I'd probably have him second but instead he drops to third for me. Not a huge drop but a real one.

[tsherkin]

Well, if it matters to me for Michael Jordan, I don't think there's a talent threshold for me. I think there's a jerk head threshold. I will root for Wilt or Shawn Marion, but not Rick Barry or Charles Barkley unless they fall a lot more.

And of course, that's your business. This is all subjective, after all. Barry and Barkley both hit a point where you wonder if they have the prerequisite talent to keep doing it, right?

I guess my point was, with someone like Jordan and the way he was able to keep it together for such an extended run... does it really matter? At what point do you sacrifice team success because you don't like your lead star?

Basically relative to others at the same level. I have both Russell and LeBron over him, but not Kareem. If he had Tim Duncan's personality but the same success, I'd probably have him second but instead he drops to third for me. Not a huge drop but a real one.

Interesting.

[SpreeS]

Reggie Miller on RealGM TOP100 year by year

2008 86th
2011 42th
2014 40th (Durant/Paul)
2017 42th (Curry)
2020 39th (Harden)
2023 36th (Giannis/Jokic/Kawhi)

Milller passed all these players from 2011 list

26) Elgin Baylor
28) John Havlicek
29) Isiah Thomas
30) Rick Barry
32) Gary Payton
33) Clyde Drexler
34) Artis Gilmore
35) George Gervin
36) Jason Kidd
37) Tracy McGrady
38) Paul Pierce
39) Dwight Howard
40) Kevin McHale
41) Dominique Wilkins

[tsherkin]

Reggie Miller on RealGM TOP100 year by year

2008 86th
2011 42th
2014 40th (Durant/Paul)
2017 42th (Curry)
2020 39th (Harden)
2023 36th (Giannis/Jokic/Kawhi)

Milller passed all these players from 2011 list

26) Elgin Baylor
28) John Havlicek
29) Isiah Thomas
30) Rick Barry
32) Gary Payton
33) Clyde Drexler
34) Artis Gilmore
35) George Gervin
36) Jason Kidd
37) Tracy McGrady
38) Paul Pierce
39) Dwight Howard
40) Kevin McHale
41) Dominique Wilkins

Yes, and?

[penbeast0]

Reggie Miller on RealGM TOP100 year by year

2008 86th
2011 42th
2014 40th (Durant/Paul)
2017 42th (Curry)
2020 39th (Harden)
2023 36th (Giannis/Jokic/Kawhi)

Milller passed all these players from 2011 list

26) Elgin Baylor
28) John Havlicek
29) Isiah Thomas
30) Rick Barry
32) Gary Payton
33) Clyde Drexler
34) Artis Gilmore
35) George Gervin
36) Jason Kidd
37) Tracy McGrady
38) Paul Pierce
39) Dwight Howard
40) Kevin McHale
41) Dominique Wilkins

So we are getting better at this you are saying?

[Doctor MJ]

Reggie Miller on RealGM TOP100 year by year

2008 86th
2011 42th
2014 40th (Durant/Paul)
2017 42th (Curry)
2020 39th (Harden)
2023 36th (Giannis/Jokic/Kawhi)

Milller passed all these players from 2011 list

26) Elgin Baylor
28) John Havlicek
29) Isiah Thomas
30) Rick Barry
32) Gary Payton
33) Clyde Drexler
34) Artis Gilmore
35) George Gervin
36) Jason Kidd
37) Tracy McGrady
38) Paul Pierce
39) Dwight Howard
40) Kevin McHale
41) Dominique Wilkins

So I think you were just looking to put this out there for people to chew on, and if so, I think that's just fine. I've compiled these trajectories so that we could reflect and learn from trends.

One thing I will say is that you chopped out 2006, where Miller placed considerably higher than 2008. That fluctuation I think lets out the dirty secret that changes in who is voting, and who is actively championing, in these projects can make a big difference.

But with that said, there's no doubt that there's been a swelling of appreciation for Reggie's career 'round these parts with time, and that's worth analyzing why. I have my thoughts, but others should feel free to share there's regardless of mine.

[Rishkar]

Reggie Miller on RealGM TOP100 year by year

2008 86th
2011 42th
2014 40th (Durant/Paul)
2017 42th (Curry)
2020 39th (Harden)
2023 36th (Giannis/Jokic/Kawhi)

Milller passed all these players from 2011 list

26) Elgin Baylor
28) John Havlicek
29) Isiah Thomas
30) Rick Barry
32) Gary Payton
33) Clyde Drexler
34) Artis Gilmore
35) George Gervin
36) Jason Kidd
37) Tracy McGrady
38) Paul Pierce
39) Dwight Howard
40) Kevin McHale
41) Dominique Wilkins

So I think you were just looking to put this out there for people to chew on, and if so, I think that's just fine. I've compiled these trajectories so that we could reflect and learn from trends.

One thing I will say is that you chopped out 2006, where Miller placed considerably higher than 2008. That fluctuation I think lets out the dirty secret that changes in who is voting, and who is actively championing, in these projects can make a big difference.

But with that said, there's no doubt that there's been a swelling of appreciation for Reggie's career 'round these parts with time, and that's worth analyzing why. I have my thoughts, but others should feel free to share there's regardless of mine.

I see it as similar to KG. I never watched KG live, so I place him 9th all time. His impact data, longevity, boxscore composites, and my general film analysis of his skillset led me to that conclusion. He seems to be very comparable to Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Mikan, and Wilt, and I can see arguments for him over any of them (even though I only have him over Mikan in that group). However, whenever I talk to my dad or uncles who watched him live, they usually see that placement as ridiculous. Part of this disconnect likely stems from winning bias, but I think a large part of it is that much of that impact wasn't very impressive to watch. I think things like good defensive rotations, versatility on both ends of the ball, floor spacing, and passing ability (when the player is not the lead initiator) can be hard to notice when watching sports for fun. I think Miller has much of the same problem, in that his unique gravity (especially for the time) made it hard to a. track his impact with boxscore statisitcs, and b. wasn't as impressive in real time (most people follow the ball when watching basketball for fun, they don't watch Miller's offball action to get open.

[ShaqAttac]

Reggie Miller on RealGM TOP100 year by year

2008 86th
2011 42th
2014 40th (Durant/Paul)
2017 42th (Curry)
2020 39th (Harden)
2023 36th (Giannis/Jokic/Kawhi)

Milller passed all these players from 2011 list

26) Elgin Baylor
28) John Havlicek
29) Isiah Thomas
30) Rick Barry
32) Gary Payton
33) Clyde Drexler
34) Artis Gilmore
35) George Gervin
36) Jason Kidd
37) Tracy McGrady
38) Paul Pierce
39) Dwight Howard
40) Kevin McHale
41) Dominique Wilkins

So I think you were just looking to put this out there for people to chew on, and if so, I think that's just fine. I've compiled these trajectories so that we could reflect and learn from trends.

One thing I will say is that you chopped out 2006, where Miller placed considerably higher than 2008. That fluctuation I think lets out the dirty secret that changes in who is voting, and who is actively championing, in these projects can make a big difference.

But with that said, there's no doubt that there's been a swelling of appreciation for Reggie's career 'round these parts with time, and that's worth analyzing why. I have my thoughts, but others should feel free to share there's regardless of mine.

I see it as similar to KG. I never watched KG live, so I place him 9th all time. His impact data, longevity, boxscore composites, and my general film analysis of his skillset led me to that conclusion. He seems to be very comparable to Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Mikan, and Wilt, and I can see arguments for him over any of them (even though I only have him over Mikan in that group). However, whenever I talk to my dad or uncles who watched him live, they usually see that placement as ridiculous. Part of this disconnect likely stems from winning bias, but I think a large part of it is that much of that impact wasn't very impressive to watch. I think things like good defensive rotations, versatility on both ends of the ball, floor spacing, and passing ability (when the player is not the lead initiator) can be hard to notice when watching sports for fun. I think Miller has much of the same problem, in that his unique gravity (especially for the time) made it hard to a. track his impact with boxscore statisitcs, and b. wasn't as impressive in real time (most people follow the ball when watching basketball for fun, they don't watch Miller's offball action to get open.

how u compare kg with mikan. i thought we didnt have anything on him outside of what ppl said n his chips

[Rishkar]

So I think you were just looking to put this out there for people to chew on, and if so, I think that's just fine. I've compiled these trajectories so that we could reflect and learn from trends.

One thing I will say is that you chopped out 2006, where Miller placed considerably higher than 2008. That fluctuation I think lets out the dirty secret that changes in who is voting, and who is actively championing, in these projects can make a big difference.

But with that said, there's no doubt that there's been a swelling of appreciation for Reggie's career 'round these parts with time, and that's worth analyzing why. I have my thoughts, but others should feel free to share there's regardless of mine.

I see it as similar to KG. I never watched KG live, so I place him 9th all time. His impact data, longevity, boxscore composites, and my general film analysis of his skillset led me to that conclusion. He seems to be very comparable to Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Mikan, and Wilt, and I can see arguments for him over any of them (even though I only have him over Mikan in that group). However, whenever I talk to my dad or uncles who watched him live, they usually see that placement as ridiculous. Part of this disconnect likely stems from winning bias, but I think a large part of it is that much of that impact wasn't very impressive to watch. I think things like good defensive rotations, versatility on both ends of the ball, floor spacing, and passing ability (when the player is not the lead initiator) can be hard to notice when watching sports for fun. I think Miller has much of the same problem, in that his unique gravity (especially for the time) made it hard to a. track his impact with boxscore statisitcs, and b. wasn't as impressive in real time (most people follow the ball when watching basketball for fun, they don't watch Miller's offball action to get open.

how u compare kg with mikan. i thought we didnt have anything on him outside of what ppl said n his chips

It's honestly kinda just a gut feeling and I don't have a strong opinion on it. We don't have good numbers on Mikan, but I place him in my bigs tier of 7-10 with Hakeem, Shaq, KG, and Mikan.

[ShaqAttac]

I see it as similar to KG. I never watched KG live, so I place him 9th all time. His impact data, longevity, boxscore composites, and my general film analysis of his skillset led me to that conclusion. He seems to be very comparable to Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Mikan, and Wilt, and I can see arguments for him over any of them (even though I only have him over Mikan in that group). However, whenever I talk to my dad or uncles who watched him live, they usually see that placement as ridiculous. Part of this disconnect likely stems from winning bias, but I think a large part of it is that much of that impact wasn't very impressive to watch. I think things like good defensive rotations, versatility on both ends of the ball, floor spacing, and passing ability (when the player is not the lead initiator) can be hard to notice when watching sports for fun. I think Miller has much of the same problem, in that his unique gravity (especially for the time) made it hard to a. track his impact with boxscore statisitcs, and b. wasn't as impressive in real time (most people follow the ball when watching basketball for fun, they don't watch Miller's offball action to get open.

how u compare kg with mikan. i thought we didnt have anything on him outside of what ppl said n his chips

It's honestly kinda just a gut feeling and I don't have a strong opinion on it. We don't have good numbers on Mikan, but I place him in my bigs tier of 7-10 with Hakeem, Shaq, KG, and Mikan.

well he prob was far and away the best player n he won 7 chips