Luka Doncic ('24 NBA Scoring Leader) & Kyrie Irving - 23-24 NBA Thread

[The-Power]

Doncic's heavy domination of the ball is not the winning basketball. He's trending to be James Harden of this generation. Yes, he will break lots of individual records but it wont translate to the winning. He will have to change his playing style in order to have the team success.

While this is a distinct possibility, it is also a possibility that his style of play works in the playoffs and allows him to have a ton of team success with the right roster around him. Also, while the Harden comparisons are understandable as far as play style is concerned, there are also some problems and misconceptions to be addressed.

For starters, Luka has thus far been criticized for lack of RS success and not elevating his teams enough over the course of a full season. But Harden has been an excellent RS performer with a ton of team success playing his style. He has been more criticized for dropping off in the playoffs, which up to this point has not been the issue with Luka.

And, to be fair to Harden, he did have some notable playoff successes. He has not won it all but even during his heliocentric years in Houston he has made noise in the playoffs. Two WCFs losing to the eventual champions and a couple more WCSFs with the Rockets are nothing to scoff at objectively speaking. So ‘lack of team success’ is a matter of perspective and always relative to expectations.

I do hope that Luka will accept and find a way to play a less ball-dominant style of basketball, in which he makes an impact off the ball as well, that should also allow him to put more of an effort into defense. I believe that's more conducive to building a winning team around him, not least because it makes him an easier fit with other star players with on-ball chops that are often needed to win titles.

And yet, another deep playoff run could offer evidence that he may indeed be good enough to lead a team all the way with his heliocentric style. Is it likely? Perhaps not, but every now and then players and teams break the mold and established patterns.

[Mickey8]

For both Harden and Doncic the goal that was set was and is the NBA Finals and the championships. Doncic have lots of time left to achieve those goals but I am becoming skeptical with every season passing by. He has to change his playing style,he has to give his teammates more freedom on the court, when he has to take over the game he should take it over, he should be similar to Jokic , that type of reservation . He should sacrifice his personal stats for the sake of team success. I don't think him dominating the ball 80% of his team possessions is the winning formula, he might win series or two but he will run out of the steam eventually.

[Bob8]

For both Harden and Doncic the goal that was set was and is the NBA Finals and the championships. Doncic have lots of time left to achieve those goals but I am becoming skeptical with every season passing by. He has to change his playing style,he has to give his teammates more freedom on the court, when he has to take over the game he should take it over, he should be similar to Jokic , that type of reservation . He should sacrifice his personal stats for the sake of team success. I don't think him dominating the ball 80% of his team possessions is the winning formula, he might win series or two but he will run out of the steam eventually.

You know a lot of things Luka should do. You must for sure be a well known coach or someone connected to FO. Really unfortunately that Mavs don't have someone like you.

[Mickey8]

Personal attacks wont change the reality that Luka is stats padder and the post season underachiever. The guy is playing alongside the NBA champion and yet Dallas is in the zone of play in, it is pathetic result.

[AEnigma]

No one can take you seriously when you are suggesting Kyrie is some incredible support piece by virtue of being an NBA champion eight years ago.

Luka has also routinely over-performed his seeding, pushing the 2020/21 Clippers more than expected and winning two series as an SRS underdog in 2022. That is more than Larry Bird and Jerry West combined!

[Mickey8]

Irving is the current all star player and a very important piece of that Cleveland championship team, he's the proven winner. Place Irving in Denver instead of Murray and Denver wouldstill be be in the same place they are right now. Doncic had Brunson and Porzingis who are playing great with their new teams, this story that Luka never had any help is starting to look silly. Dallas have a pretty good roster that should be way up in the standings and not fighting for its play off life at this stage of the season. Also them missing play off's last season and giving up when they still had the chance to make the play in tournament was embarrassing. Tatum is getting undeserved media criticism , while he already has the final appearance, yet Luka is getting the free pass, its ridiculous.

[Texas Chuck]

Thank goodness Luka finally got some criticism. I mean he's also fat(forget that he's basically at the top of the league in minutes and with that insane usage that bothers you--he's still fat and out of shape obviously...)

And that stuff he did in Europe won't translate either.....

Always wonder about the hater posters what drives them. Are they huge fans of another player and think somehow by negging one player it elevates their guy? Sorry, it doesn't. Are they just haters in general? I feel bad about those that miserable. Are they American biased? Sorry, but you can make a real argument the 4 best players in the world right now are all non-American and the best prospects are all the same.

But the commitment to the bit is admirable I guess?

[TroubleS0me]

Thank goodness Luka finally got some criticism. I mean he's also fat(forget that he's basically at the top of the league in minutes and with that insane usage that bothers you--he's still fat and out of shape obviously...)

And that stuff he did in Europe won't translate either.....

Always wonder about the hater posters what drives them. Are they huge fans of another player and think somehow by negging one player it elevates their guy? Sorry, it doesn't. Are they just haters in general? I feel bad about those that miserable. Are they American biased? Sorry, but you can make a real argument the 4 best players in the world right now are all non-American and the best prospects are all the same.

But the commitment to the bit is admirable I guess?

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[TroubleS0me]

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[Bob8]

Irving is the current all star player and a very important piece of that Cleveland championship team, he's the proven winner. Place Irving in Denver instead of Murray and Denver wouldstill be be in the same place they are right now. Doncic had Brunson and Porzingis who are playing great with their new teams, this story that Luka never had any help is starting to look silly. Dallas have a pretty good roster that should be way up in the standings and not fighting for its play off life at this stage of the season. Also them missing play off's last season and giving up when they still had the chance to make the play in tournament was embarrassing. Tatum is getting undeserved media criticism , while he already has the final appearance, yet Luka is getting the free pass, its ridiculous.

Do you think there is a reason that they have played with 33 starting lineups? What is the reason that their most used lineup has played only 99 minutes? Denver for example has lineup with 850 minutes.

[Pelly24]

They're a great combo, but it's legitimately funny watching Luka just play around with the ball so much. Sometimes, I feel like he's the biggest ballhog I've seen since Kobe. He legitimately takes like 60% bad shots. But he's just so tall and so big and so strong it doesn't matter, he'll make the shots at a high clip anyway, or you'll just have to foul him. It's pretty amazing. As far as players I can remember watching while they were in their prime, I'm not sure I've seen more than 5 better players. Probably just LeBron, Jokic, Shaq... maybe 2009 Wade. People compare Doncic to Harden, but Harden is so much more binary. Luka has a Kobe-esque spontaneity with shot-creation in the midrange. He's got fadeaways, floaters, a post game, he uses ball fakes a lot and is killer at just making off balance shots. Harden had a decent midrange game, but he never used it enough when it was needed. I think this just gives Luka a gear Harden never had. Legitimately, you will never see a team stop Luka. He and Jokic and peak/prime LeBron are like that in that way, where they really only get in their own way (see 2011 Finals LeBron).

Kidd is a bad coach.

[Texas Chuck]

They're a great combo, but it's legitimately funny watching Luka just play around with the ball so much. Sometimes, I feel like he's the biggest ballhog I've seen since Kobe. He legitimately takes like 60% bad shots. But he's just so tall and so big and so strong it doesn't matter, he'll make the shots at a high clip anyway, or you'll just have to foul him. It's pretty amazing. As far as players I can remember watching while they were in their prime, I'm not sure I've seen more than 5 better players. Probably just LeBron, Jokic, Shaq... maybe 2009 Wade. People compare Doncic to Harden, but Harden is so much more binary. Luka has a Kobe-esque spontaneity with shot-creation in the midrange. He's got fadeaways, floaters, a post game, he uses ball fakes a lot and is killer at just making off balance shots. Harden had a decent midrange game, but he never used it enough when it was needed. I think this just gives Luka a gear Harden never had. Legitimately, you will never see a team stop Luka. He and Jokic and peak/prime LeBron are like that in that way, where they really only get in their own way (see 2011 Finals LeBron).

Kidd is a bad coach.

Would love a source for this just utterly made up number lol. For instance 40% of his shots for his career are in the paint. Which means literally every jump shot he ever takes is a bad shot according to you. Now he's no Reggie Miller or Grayson Allen but pretty sure that can't be right.

[TroubleS0me]

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[Texas Chuck]

Hard to recognize these Mavs. 18 dunks last night which is the 2nd most in the last 25 years. This new starting lineup has a really good offensive rating and an absurd defensive one. They are out-rebounding teams. They are playing fast.

All I know is jump shooting teams that don't play much defense built around an all-time offensive hub lol.

[TroubleS0me]

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[TroubleS0me]

Hard to recognize these Mavs. 18 dunks last night which is the 2nd most in the last 25 years. This new starting lineup has a really good offensive rating and an absurd defensive one. They are out-rebounding teams. They are playing fast.

All I know is jump shooting teams that don't play much defense built around an all-time offensive hub lol.

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[AEnigma]

Congratulations to Luka for being able to shut down assignments like Keyonte George, but I would not call that being a good defender.

Fortunately, as with peak Harden, his team really just needs him to be competent on that end.

[Texas Chuck]

Congratulations to Luka for being able to shut down assignments like Keyonte George, but I would not call that being a good defender.

Fortunately, as with peak Harden, his team really just needs him to be competent on that end.

Not sure the point of the first line when you acknowledge the 2nd? Nobody thinks he is Herb Jones nor could possibly have that expectation with his offensive responsibilites. What he needs to do is give effort, not get lost off ball or gamble too much. He's still not completely there but much like much criticized Dirk their size has always made them more effective defenders than perception.

Its easy to just go hur dur Harden, but Harden was better than his rep too in many ways. Neither guy's issue has ever been defensive ability its been finding the energy and the care considering what they have to do offensively.

[AEnigma]

Congratulations to Luka for being able to shut down assignments like Keyonte George, but I would not call that being a good defender.

Fortunately, as with peak Harden, his team really just needs him to be competent on that end.

Not sure the point of the first line when you acknowledge the 2nd? Nobody thinks he is Herb Jones nor could possibly have that expectation with his offensive responsibilites. What he needs to do is give effort, not get lost off ball or gamble too much. He's still not completely there but much like much criticized Dirk their size has always made them more effective defenders than perception.

Its easy to just go hur dur Harden, but Harden was better than his rep too in many ways. Neither guy's issue has ever been defensive ability its been finding the energy and the care considering what they have to do offensively.

I encourage you to read one post above mine, citing “91st percentile” defensive metrics as proof he is now a good defender.

[mademan]

It all seems great right now but they havent played well against the Kings this year. These b2b games can solidify their place in the play-in or in the playoffs and as someone who wants to see them do well, im very pessimistic about these 2 games.