Nikola Jokic - 23-24 NBA Thread - 23 Finals NBA MVP

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I think a significant part of this is about him being a trendsetter who first has been used in such a pivotal (lol) way. Now that we have proof of comcept we'll see other guys approaching such numbers, already Sabonis and Sengun are iver 21% trending upwards (Domas over 30% as a King), I am sure we'll have many other guys used this way more. Even a mediocre passer like Joel has been over 22% recently and is at 29% this season, in a small sample.

While you make a great point, I don't think any 7' Center anytime soon will be doing this (see below) for 260 games across the regular season plus playoffs, do you?



Jokic is more than DOUBLE #2 Embiid's assist percentage.

And, 250+ games is not a small sample size, at all.

they are not at his level but Domas is over 30 as a King and Sengun is now at 33.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a center get to around 40 in the next decade.
Not as good of a passer and definitely not as a good of an offensive player, but skilled enough and used in a way to allow him to rack up assists.

[ty 4191]

they are not at his level but Domas is over 30 as a King and Sengun is now at 33.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a center get to around 40 in the next decade.

Not as good of a passer and definitely not as a good of an offensive player, but skilled enough and used in a way to allow him to rack up assists.

You think Sabonis and Sengun will maintain 30% and 33% assist percentage for 260 straight games, though?

Sample size is paramount, in this side discussion.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

they are not at his level but Domas is over 30 as a King and Sengun is now at 33.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a center get to around 40 in the next decade.

Not as good of a passer and definitely not as a good of an offensive player, but skilled enough and used in a way to allow him to rack up assists.

You think Sabonis and Sengun will maintain 30% and 33% assist percentage for 260 straight games, though?

Sample size is paramount, in this side discussion.

As long as their teams will keep play through them (and they've been successful so far, Domas over multiple seasons) yes. Actually they can go even higher, up to the mid 30s.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I find myself looking at that stat. I'm so glad we've gotten to see the Big Beethoven.

I think a significant part of this is about him being a trendsetter who first has been used in such a pivotal (lol) way. Now that we have proof of comcept we'll see other guys approaching such numbers, already Sabonis and Sengun are iver 21% trending upwards (Domas over 30% as a King), I am sure we'll have many other guys used this way more. Even a mediocre passer like Joel has been over 22% recently and is at 29% this season, in a small sample.

This is quite true...of course the proof of concept is almost a century old, it was simply forgotten/dismissed.

Jokic is bringing sexy back.

Yeah, I remember your old post about the pivot, but we both know the game in the 40s was something totally different so it's not obvious what old principles would work now.
While Jokis is an absolute freak, I really think Mike Malone deserves more credit, though. It always looks obvious using hindsight, but building a very different offense around a soph 2nd round pick center who couldn't jump was an incredibly ballsy move. Just like it was when MDA used Nash that way.
And I would like to mention the Denver FO as well, starting from Josh Kroenke. I heard his interview from DNVR describing those months and his vision and the guy is much smarter than what his facial hair suggests.
Landing Jokic is 99% luck, but what you do with it is on you.

Anyway, when Nash happened I loved the idea of how basketball could evolve, and I am thrilled to see more and more Jokic copycats coming out.
Another guy I would watchout is Olynyk, anyway. With the Utah limited guard play they could really use him as a hub.

[ty 4191]

Most 25/20/10 games, since 2015-2016:



Jokic is- quite arguably- the greatest offensive player of all time. Certainly, for a 3+ season peak (261 games including playoffs, dating back to the beginning of 2020-2021).

All stats include the playoffs:

Jokic:
PER: 31.5
True Shooting %: .644%
TRB%: 20.3%
AST%: 40.0%
Win Shares: 55.5
WS/48: .281
BPM: 12.5
VORP: 33.4
On/Off: +15.5

Compare that to the greatest players of the past 4 seasons:

Embiid:
PER: 26.5
TS%: .615
TRB%: 28.2%
AST%: 17.5%
Win Shares: 38.2
WS/48: .197
BPM: 5.9
VORP: 19.1
On/Off: +10.5

Doncic:
PER: 27.3
TS%: .584%
TRB%: 13.9%
AST%: 43.4%
Win Shares: 29.7
WS/48: .165
BPM: 9.0
VORP: 21.1
On/Off: +2.9

Giannis:
PER: 28.3
TS%: .599%
TRB%: 18.5%
AST%: 29.8%
Win Shares: 38.0
WS/48: .215
BPM: 9.4
VORP: 22.7
On/Off: +8.9

Curry:
PER: 23.4
TS%: .619%
TRB%: 8.3%
AST%: 28.9%
Win Shares: 30.9
WS/48: .182
BPM: 7.3
VORP: 18.9
On/Off: +7.9

[LessEyeTest]

My favorite part about living through the Jokic era is how a certain fanbase (or their loudmouths at least - eyeatoma, Hussein, beboxdeluxe) tries to argue Jokic and a certain 76er are 1A/1B when in reality the gap between Jokic and Embiid is equal to the gap between Embiid and the 50th best player. There's levels to this and Jokic has broken basketball as we know it.

[TroubleS0me]

Read on Twitter

[TroubleS0me]

Watch on YouTube

[sp6r=underrated]

Watch on YouTube

I've said before I dislike the way NBA players complain so much to the referees. It comes off as bullying the waiter. It lowers my enjoyment of the game even if I prefer the culture of the NBA to other sports. I would welcome the NBA taking the more hardline attitude NFL/MLB do to complaining about the refs.

But the NBA has never done that and never will. So frankly I'm shocked Jokic got tossed for that as I've seen players of his stature do far worse.

[LessEyeTest]

Jokic with a monster game against the Magic: 30 points, 13 rebounds, 12 assists.

It's becoming evident that Jamal Murray is badly needed because right now the Nuggets have about 6.5 quality rotation level players in their lineup (starters + Braun). Losing Bruce Brown hurts more than expected because we got the jackass Reggie acting "too cool" on the court while dribbling the air out of the ball and either shooting horribly or not being a floor general.

Another thing to note at this point - I've tried to think back to any championship team that had absolutely zero all-stars on their team other than last year's Nuggets and the 2003 Spurs (and maybe 94 Rockets). In terms of carry jobs, how epic was Jokic's Finals run last year in comparison to all-time runs? Took out the 2nd greatest player of all-time, a top 15-20 greatest of all-time in Durant, Michael Jordan's son in the Finals, etc.

Meanwhile, I glance over at the Eastern Conference and see Giannis winning with Jrue/Khris and Embiid failing to even reach an Eastern Conference Finals with ridiculously stacked rosters chock full of all-stars for the past 5 years.

[itsxtray]

Jokic with a monster game against the Magic: 30 points, 13 rebounds, 12 assists.

It's becoming evident that Jamal Murray is badly needed because right now the Nuggets have about 6.5 quality rotation level players in their lineup (starters + Braun). Losing Bruce Brown hurts more than expected because we got the jackass Reggie acting "too cool" on the court while dribbling the air out of the ball and either shooting horribly or not being a floor general.

Another thing to note at this point - I've tried to think back to any championship team that had absolutely zero all-stars on their team other than last year's Nuggets and the 2003 Spurs (and maybe 94 Rockets). In terms of carry jobs, how epic was Jokic's Finals run last year in comparison to all-time runs? Took out the 2nd greatest player of all-time, a top 15-20 greatest of all-time in Durant, Michael Jordan's son in the Finals, etc.

Meanwhile, I glance over at the Eastern Conference and see Giannis winning with Jrue/Khris and Embiid failing to even reach an Eastern Conference Finals with ridiculously stacked rosters chock full of all-stars for the past 5 years.

Whether someone was an all-star or not doesn't matter. That's lazy analysis. Murray played like an all-nba guard in the playoffs and like an Mvp candidate in the Lakers series. That's what matters, not some regular season award. If were not gonna talk about how well a player actually played during their run instead of some awards then what are we even doing here?

[TroubleS0me]

Read on Twitter

[McBubbles]

Jokic with a monster game against the Magic: 30 points, 13 rebounds, 12 assists.

It's becoming evident that Jamal Murray is badly needed because right now the Nuggets have about 6.5 quality rotation level players in their lineup (starters + Braun). Losing Bruce Brown hurts more than expected because we got the jackass Reggie acting "too cool" on the court while dribbling the air out of the ball and either shooting horribly or not being a floor general.

Another thing to note at this point - I've tried to think back to any championship team that had absolutely zero all-stars on their team other than last year's Nuggets and the 2003 Spurs (and maybe 94 Rockets). In terms of carry jobs, how epic was Jokic's Finals run last year in comparison to all-time runs? Took out the 2nd greatest player of all-time, a top 15-20 greatest of all-time in Durant, Michael Jordan's son in the Finals, etc.

Meanwhile, I glance over at the Eastern Conference and see Giannis winning with Jrue/Khris and Embiid failing to even reach an Eastern Conference Finals with ridiculously stacked rosters chock full of all-stars for the past 5 years.

Jokic is dope and all but your analysis is extremely shallow. You're just listing off names and accolades, which is actually underrating Jokic's performance if anything (not to mention Jamal Murray's).

[tsherkin]

I've said before I dislike the way NBA players complain so much to the referees. It comes off as bullying the waiter.

TBF, many of them are very bad and their credibility is suspect as hell given historical events.

If they sucked less and weren't violently inconsistent, then maybe we'd see less complaining. There is a problem above and beyond that, for sure, but they are far from without fault.

[TroubleS0me]

38 points on 31 shots
uh oh...

[sp6r=underrated]

I've said before I dislike the way NBA players complain so much to the referees. It comes off as bullying the waiter.

TBF, many of them are very bad and their credibility is suspect as hell given historical events.

If they sucked less and weren't violently inconsistent, then maybe we'd see less complaining. There is a problem above and beyond that, for sure, but they are far from without fault.

They're bad at their jobs relative to NBA players and playing basketball. But they are way better at their job than the average fan is at their job.

They're tasked with officiating some of the world's best athletes who move at impossible speeds and do things with their body that defy description. And said players are constantly trying to fool referees in a similar fashion to conmen ripping off marks.

Given that environment they're going to get some calls wrong. And the players/coaches treatment of the refs is egregious.

[Peregrine01]

I've said before I dislike the way NBA players complain so much to the referees. It comes off as bullying the waiter.

TBF, many of them are very bad and their credibility is suspect as hell given historical events.

If they sucked less and weren't violently inconsistent, then maybe we'd see less complaining. There is a problem above and beyond that, for sure, but they are far from without fault.

They're bad at their jobs relative to NBA players and playing basketball. But they are way better at their job than the average fan is at their job.

They're tasked with officiating some of the world's best athletes who move at impossible speeds and do things with their body that describe description. And said players are constantly trying to fool referees in a similar fashion to conmen ripping off marks.

Given that environment they're going to get some calls wrong. And the players/coaches treatment of the refs is egregious.

I agree here. I have much less of a problem with refs than the ruleset that refs have to abide by. A great example is flopping - it's hard for refs not to fall for flops in real-time so it's on the league to come down hard on flopping after the fact (think a fine commensurate with the offending player's salary). But the league has never been serious about punishing flopping despite talking about doing something every off-season. It may well be that flopping has gotten so engrained in the NBA game that it's now nearly intractable to remove.

[rk2023]

How about some Reggie Jackson action tonight

[Peregrine01]

How about some Reggie Jackson action tonight

Speaks more to the futility of the Clippers than anything. They had Harden guard the point-of-attack and Jackson feasted.

[Mickey8]

Since I am banned from the general Boards . I just want to to correct the liar on that board who wrote that Embiid is the leader among active players in the career PER.

1 Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. Nikola Jokić 27.84
3. LeBron James 27.19
4. Anthony Davis 26.89
5. Shaquille O'Neal* 26.43
6. David Robinson* 26.18
7. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.16
8. Bob Pettit* 25.45
9. Kevin Durant 25.30
10. Giannis Antetokounmpo 24.99
11. Neil Johnston* 24.86
12. Charles Barkley* 24.63
13. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
14. James Harden 24.27
15. Karl-Anthony Towns 24.26
16. Chris Paul 24.24
17. Tim Duncan* 24.22
18. Magic Johnson* 24.11
19. Karl Malone* 23.90
20. Stephen Curry 23.84
21. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
22. Larry Bird* 23.50
23. Dwyane Wade* 23.48
24. Kawhi Leonard 23.30
25. Oscar Robertson* 23.19
26. Yao Ming* 23.02
27. Jerry West* 22.91
28. Kobe Bryant* 22.90
29. Elgin Baylor* 22.72
30. Kevin Garnett* 22.66
31. Damian Lillard 22.54
32. Dirk Nowitzki* 22.44
33. Kyrie Irving 22.39
34. Moses Malone* 22.31
35. Tracy McGrady*

This is the all time PER leaders, he's not even in the top 35 of all time, even KAT is ahead oh him . And he's behind Jokic for this current season too. I don't know from where that person was pulling up statistics. I don't want to even mention the play off's where he's abysmal all across the boards.