What held Stockton back from being the GOAT PG?

[NbaAllDay]

I've been trying to look more into the PG role, as I find myself lacking in some of the ATG in that position (usually focusing more on the SG/SF roles)

The current talks often compare Curry directly to Magic, and I see little mentioned on Stockton.

I understand the more casual fans (and commentary) forget longevity (Of which Stockton is GOAT level)

I also understand team success is often a big driver of how people rank players as well. (Which I believe can be very circumstantial and often weighted to individuals a lot heavier than deserved in a 1 on 1 comparison)

So I've probably answered the question to a more surface level analysis and above you can see I obviously put stock into Longevity and try not to overblow team success as an individual barometer (while absolutely still playing a part)

Some questions/Thoughts on it:
So i'd like to see if we dig deeper, is there enough data to create separation?
Does the longevity and consistency piece mean a lot less in your eyes?
Does the team success of Magic have a massive weighting to him, and by comparison proof himself over Stockton. If so how easily can we measure it?

[uberhikari]

He was too conservative as a passer.

[falcolombardi]

talent

[OhayoKD]

I've been trying to look more into the PG role, as I find myself lacking in some of the ATG in that position (usually focusing more on the SG/SF roles)

The current talks often compare Curry directly to Magic, and I see little mentioned on Stockton.?

It's basically because of this:

Spoiler:

I can't genuinely look at something like this and say it's a higher level or better:

Watch on YouTube

[/quote]
Of Nash's first 10 assists, 9 have him take multiple defenders out of the play, 5 lead to a wide-open shot. A major difference here is that Nash is taking out defenders pre-pass via dribbling/penetration but even if(for whatever reason), we only looked at the final pass, then Nash bypasses multiple defenders 6 times. None of the assists involve the recipient dealing with multiple defenders to score.

For comparison:

Looking at Stockton's first 10 assists, only 3 lead to an open shot. And only 2 have stockton taking more than 1 defender out of the play. 3 of these involve the player Stockton passes to dealing with multiple defenders to score, and all of these reads seem pretty simple by the standards of a modern helio.

Again, if you have questions about the sample, I invite someone to bring me any Stockton game(or highlights for a game) where they think Stockton took out multiple defenders on half of his assists. Links to both games have posted so you can vet yourself if you want and you're free to do tracking yourself if you only trust your own eyes.

It might also be worthwhile counting creations which didn't lead to scores but since that wasn't in the first clip for stockton i avoided doing it with Nash
[/quote]

[eminence]

Things that could've (somewhat realistically) strengthened Stockton's game:
-A more assertive scoring game.
-A better understanding how to leverage the 3 (either Stock himself or the cast).
-A better understanding of how a probing/live dribble can pull a defense. Nash really showed the way there.

Honestly I think Sloan fundamentals approach held him back and if Layden had stayed coach he would've grown more individually (unsure if Sloan helped the rest of the squad enough to balance it out overall). Stock with Nellie would've been fun.

Also missing team success, which maybe could've been achieved if he'd been better individually, but also Utah could've helped out with more depth or a real #3 guy through a fair amount of his prime. But it's Utah, never been as easy as in LA (highlighted by that Goodrich stunt the league pulled when the Jazz were still in New Orleans).

[picko]

You need to ask yourself - how many seasons during Stockton's career was he the best PG in the league?

Stockton doesn't get any love - relative to Magic - because the two played against each other and there was never any doubt who was the better or more valuable player. There were four seasons when both Stockton and Magic were all-NBA quality players and Stockton received 7 first-team votes to Magic's 343 during that period (1987-88 to 1990-91).

Magic's team success just builds upon that. Stockton had very few long playoff runs during his prime and his two finals appearances came when he was 35 and 36.

Stockton has a longevity advantage over Magic but you'd need to weigh that heavily to put him in that all-time debate. Stockton was consistently very good but never truly exceptional and that's reflected in how we assess him compared to Magic.

I don't think there is any one thing you could change about Stockton's game that would elevate him over Magic and into discussions about the best PG of all-time. He'd basically have to become an entirely different player.

[1993Playoffs]

He was never even a top 3 player in the league during his own era. Let alone Any GOAT PG talk.

[Gregoire]

Genetics

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Other:

Even though he's the career leader in steals he wasn't someone that could stop guys from going off on him

For a HOF PG in his prime he either got completely throttled or was playing down to the level of PGs he was supposed to better than. .

Terry Porter in the 92 WCF imho gave him as much of a h2h evisceration as Olajuwon did to Robinson.

Then in 94 and 95 he couldn't slow down Kenny Smith. The same Kenny Smith in 94 that was run ragged by KJ and thoroughly outplayed by Derek Harper in the Finals.

In 95 that was a very winnable series for Utah and although Hakeem and Clyde were cooking, Stockton allowing Smith to play like a all star sealed Utahs fate. Smith shot poorly the other 3 series during that title run, but vs Stockton he had a field day.

[WestGOAT]

Based on what I've seen on RealGM:
- Sloan (made Stockton to play slow and not shoot enough)
- Malone (he didn't show up enough in the playoffs)
- Poor supporting cast (no-one to lockdown Terry Porter and Kenny Smith during the playoffs)
- Bulls (Jazz otherwise would have 3-peated from '96 to '98)

Basically if he played under D'Antoni he would have been Nash + All-NBA defence.

[tsherkin]

Genetics and assertiveness as a scorer.

He got some maximum-level production out of that body with high-end skills and a million-dollar PG brain. Dude was a very, very good player, regardless of anything else. He was just never a top 5 player in the league. Never better than Magic, couldn't come through with his own scoring to pick the team up when it mattered (time and time again), and he is generally overrated by volume stats and longevity, to one degree or another. Again, very, very good. A really good 2nd or 3rd guy on your team. But not a franchise player, and there have been franchise-level PGs in the league with him, before and since, which limits any serious candidacy for GOAT PG, as the OP calls it.

[colts18]

He was 6' 1, 175 lbs. He was never going to be a GOAT at that size. His size and lack of explosiveness is what kept him from being a GOAT. CP3 is not a great athlete but he was another tier from Stockton. If Stockton had CP3's athleticism, he is in the convo for #2 PG of all-time.

[AEnigma]

EDIT: I fell for it.

Based on what I've seen on RealGM:
- Sloan (made Stockton to play slow and not shoot enough)

Yeah Sloan begged Stockton to shoot less in the postseason.

- Malone (he didn't show up enough in the playoffs)

So if he were an even more distant second on his team, he would be better?

- Poor supporting cast (no-one to lockdown Terry Porter and Kenny Smith during the playoffs)

… That was literally his job as an all-defensive point guard. We are not talking about guys like Lillard or Trae here.

- Bulls (Jazz otherwise would have 3-peated from '96 to '98)

They did not even make the Finals in 1996, in 1998 they would have played a more balanced Pacers team led by a more consistent postseason scorer, and even randomly giving him three titles leaves him less accomplished than Magic and Steph.

Basically if he played under D'Antoni he would have been Nash + All-NBA defence.

Oh, are you putting D’Antoni’s brain in Stockton’s body too? I forgot that every point guard who played with D’Antoni at one point spearheaded the greatest offences in NBA history — with or without him.

[Colbinii]

Based on what I've seen on RealGM:
- Sloan (made Stockton to play slow and not shoot enough)
- Malone (he didn't show up enough in the playoffs)
- Poor supporting cast (no-one to lockdown Terry Porter and Kenny Smith during the playoffs)
- Bulls (Jazz otherwise would have 3-peated from '96 to '98)

Basically if he played under D'Antoni he would have been Nash + All-NBA defence.

Players don't play under D'Antoni and become Nash. The idea that Sloan didn't maximize Stockton is weird. Stockton wanted to play slow and methodical, it suited him and Malone.

[Colbinii]

There are few players in NBA History who were maximized more than Stockton given his teammate(s), coach, and era he played in.

[EmpireFalls]

Athleticism.

[eminence]

There are few players in NBA History who were maximized more than Stockton given his teammate(s), coach, and era he played in.

Stockton games under Layden watched - O/U 1.5?

[tsherkin]

There are few players in NBA History who were maximized more than Stockton given his teammate(s), coach, and era he played in.

I mean, I'm usually on team "quiet down about John Stockton a little" because he gets talked up more than I like based on raw APG and based on late-career RAPM... BUT...

He was a tough little bastard who was consistently available. He had outstanding reaction times, quick hands, excellent anticipation. His end-to-end speed was actually pretty good. He was pretty ambidextrous, especially with one-handed passes (especially that lefty off the live dribble pass with one hand), but also with lefty layup finishes. He had an excellent bead on when to use what type of pass and he was extremely adept at firing pocket passes. Good shooter.

I'd say he did a very good job of maximizing himself. He just lacked the pieces to be better, and his physical tools also put a ceiling on him. So I don't think there needs to be hyperbole about how he was deployed or with whom he played. It behooves one to remember that Stockton WAS still a 10 AST36 guy at age 40 in his final season in 03 while Malone was taking less than 16 FGA36 and had long since turned into more of a jump shooter than a finisher in close. Consider that in 97, Malone was taking some 40% of his shots from 0-3 feet and by 03, he was taking about 25%. Something like 3/7 shots were coming from 16-23 feet and he was hitting those at 40.8%, so it's not like Stockton was going to a money dunk or something like that on loads of those assists. Yes, there is a degree to which the team had a coherent offensive system, and relevance to how little Stockton called his own number (about as often as Calbert Cheaney or Andrei Kirilenko got a shot per-minute, about 2 for everyone Ostertag got), but still.

Dude was legit. He had a ceiling and he had a specifically helpful context over the years, but he was actually also just an outstanding player who was tough as hell and busted ass.

[WestGOAT]

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Oops, guess I wasn't being clear enough, was just my poor attempt at being facetious by repeating the same excuses I constantly see for Stockton on the PC and GB board.

[Colbinii]

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Oops, guess I wasn't being clear enough, was just my poor attempt at being facetious by repeating the same excuses I constantly see for Stockton on the PC and GB board.

Me and AEnigma right now