What's the argument for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron?

[lessthanjake]

Given what happened to Lebron in the playoffs in surrounding years, 2009 starts looking like a pretty massive outlier in terms of postseason performance. And it makes sense considering it is just 14 games.

Knowing what we know which is that both Lebron's skillset (outside shooting, post game) and mentality grew over the years, it's not difficult to make an argument that 2013 Lebron was better despite having inferior box score and impact stats.

2010: 11.5 BPM, +23.2 on/off
2013: 10.4 BPM, +0.2 on/off

In at least one of the 2 "surrounding years", LeBron had much better playoff numbers than he had in his supposed peak season.

Because LeBron performed so poorly in the embarrassing loss to the Mavs, the narrative is that he had to have learned something following the '11 season that he didn't have before that made him reach his final form. This is the reason so many people refuse to acknowledge 2009 as his peak. When in reality, the 2011 Finals were kind of a fluky event with Bron getting stymied by Rick Carlisle's zone and also deferring too much to Dwyane Wade. It was one underperformance, not a symptom of LeBron failing to reach "championship level" yet.

Here are the playoff game scores grouped from '09 and '13:

Game scores in 2009 playoffs
40+: 2
35-40: 1
30-35: 4
25-30: 4
20-25: 1
15-20: 2
10-15: 0

Game scores in 2013 playoffs
40+: 0
35-40: 0
30-35: 2
25-30: 5
20-25: 9
15-20: 4
10-15: 3

Those just aren't remotely comparable performances. '09 LeBron has 7 games with a game score over 30 and 3 under 25. '13 LeBron has 2 games with a game score over 30 and 16 games under 25. LeBron's 11th best game (out of 14) in '09 has a higher game score than his 5th best game (out of 23) in '13. And then there's the on/off stuff:

'09 Cavs with Bron: +11.6
'09 Cavs w/o Bron: +3.2

'13 Heat with Bron: +7.3
'13 Heat w/o Bron: +7.1

There isn't really much of a coherent case for '13 over '09 other than RANGZZZ and narrative.

Not sure if I disagree with the conclusion (I’ve set forth my thoughts on that earlier in the thread), but I think this is focused way too much on playoff on-off. I think single-year playoff on-off should basically have virtually zero weight put on it. The sample size is just too small for it to have any meaning. For instance, in 2008-2009, the playoff “off” sample for LeBron is 97 minutes. In 2012-2013, the playoff “off” sample is 154 minutes. There’s really just zero meaning to be taken from data derived from that kind of sample. Honestly, even if we expanded it out to include three-year samples, it’s still too small a sample to be very meaningful.

In general, I think sometimes we should all just be cognizant of the fact that sometimes the data we have just inherently can’t tell us much of anything. This is the biggest conundrum with looking at NBA data IMO. The playoffs are way more important than regular season, so we’d want to focus on playoff data, and box score data can’t take into account as much as impact data does, so we’d theoretically want to preference playoff impact data, but playoff impact data has such small sample sizes that it can’t really tell us anything. There’s no great solution there. When it comes to this particular discussion, I think the fact that LeBron’s on-off was much better in the 2008-2009 regular season than it was in the 2012-2013 regular season should give us more confidence in the idea that he’d likely have had better playoff impact data in 2008-2009 with a larger sample too (though, it should be acknowledged that even single-regular-season impact data is a small sample). But that’s just an inference, and not one that people would necessarily agree with if one really thinks playoff basketball is super different from regular season basketball. Anyways, if we did accept that inference as likely being right, then it comes down to whether we think that is more a consequence of differing context rather than LeBron himself actually being better.

From 2008-2010, this is what LeBron put up in the playoffs:
30.3 PER, .280 WS/48, 13.2 BPM, +18.3 on/off

You think "quite a few players" have matched or exceeded that production? Name me one other than Jordan. Here's a complete list of players who have put up a 13 BPM for even one postseason:

1. LeBron
2. Jordan
3. Hakeem (4 games in a 1st round loss)
4. Kawhi (got injured in middle of run)
5. Dr. J (ABA)
6. Wade (5 games in a first round loss)

That's it. And that's just for one year. Not a 3 year peak like LeBron.

Leaving aside the on-off point discussed above, I do want to note that LeBron’s stats in that three-year span can’t exactly be compared to three-year spans of other players who went much further in the postseason in their best years (or, perhaps more pertinently, to LeBron himself in later years when he was going further). In that three-year span, LeBron’s team lost in the second round twice and the conference finals once. Racking up a high BPM is of course a good deal easier when the first round makes up such a large portion of the games. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that he did get a good Celtics team in the ECSF two of those years. But still. Those great stats are largely driven by incredible early-round stats, and it’s likely those stats would not have remained as high if his team was going to the finals every year (like he was with the Heat).

[Djoker]

Given what happened to Lebron in the playoffs in surrounding years, 2009 starts looking like a pretty massive outlier in terms of postseason performance. And it makes sense considering it is just 14 games.

Knowing what we know which is that both Lebron's skillset (outside shooting, post game) and mentality grew over the years, it's not difficult to make an argument that 2013 Lebron was better despite having inferior box score and impact stats.

2010: 11.5 BPM, +23.2 on/off
2013: 10.4 BPM, +0.2 on/off

In at least one of the 2 "surrounding years", LeBron had much better playoff numbers than he had in his supposed peak season.

Because LeBron performed so poorly in the embarrassing loss to the Mavs, the narrative is that he had to have learned something following the '11 season that he didn't have before that made him reach his final form. This is the reason so many people refuse to acknowledge 2009 as his peak. When in reality, the 2011 Finals were kind of a fluky event with Bron getting stymied by Rick Carlisle's zone and also deferring too much to Dwyane Wade. It was one underperformance, not a symptom of LeBron failing to reach "championship level" yet.

Here are the playoff game scores grouped from '09 and '13:

Game scores in 2009 playoffs
40+: 2
35-40: 1
30-35: 4
25-30: 4
20-25: 1
15-20: 2
10-15: 0

Game scores in 2013 playoffs
40+: 0
35-40: 0
30-35: 2
25-30: 5
20-25: 9
15-20: 4
10-15: 3

Those just aren't remotely comparable performances. '09 LeBron has 7 games with a game score over 30 and 3 under 25. '13 LeBron has 2 games with a game score over 30 and 16 games under 25. LeBron's 11th best game (out of 14) in '09 has a higher game score than his 5th best game (out of 23) in '13. And then there's the on/off stuff:

'09 Cavs with Bron: +11.6
'09 Cavs w/o Bron: +3.2

'13 Heat with Bron: +7.3
'13 Heat w/o Bron: +7.1

There isn't really much of a coherent case for '13 over '09 other than RANGZZZ and narrative.

Aggregate stats hide that fact that Lebron had a bad series against Boston in 2010.

Although admittedly he didn't have a particularly good series against San Antonio in 2013 either. If Allen missed that shot, that series would be looked at in a similar light. A very strong Game 7 and eventual win changed the story of the 2013 Finals for Lebron.

Using ON-OFF numbers for single playoff runs doesn't pass the smell test. Noise is way too big to make much of it.

Mathematically speaking, it’s not an outlier. If you want to colloquially say it was an “outlier,” ok, but basically his whole career is an outlier. Also, it DID happen, and it was done by a GoAT player who also did it in the same regular season. Frankly, if Ben Wallace doesn’t get injured, I think they win title losing maybe 3-4 games.



Nobody has. It’s a feather in his cap that it was he who did so.

LOL at "whole career is an outlier". What kind of retort is that?

Not sure how you're mathematically figuring out whether something is an outlier. With a p value of 0.05, it's more than two standard deviations from the mean in normally distributed data that's considered an outlier. That's standard practice. But anyways, whether it's mathematically an outlier or not is irrelevant. The point is that no one can reasonably expect Lebron to maintain that kind of production over a larger sample. Let's call it a colloquial outlier if you wish.

As for "nobody has", quite a few players have matched or exceeded Lebron's production if we compare longer playoff peaks than like 14 games. Say 3-year or 5-year playoff peak which is what most serious analysis usually does acknowledging the noise in small samples.

From 2008-2010, this is what LeBron put up in the playoffs:
30.3 PER, .280 WS/48, 13.2 BPM, +18.3 on/off

You think "quite a few players" have matched or exceeded that production? Name me one other than Jordan. Here's a complete list of players who have put up a 13 BPM for even one postseason:

1. LeBron
2. Jordan
3. Hakeem (4 games in a 1st round loss)
4. Kawhi (got injured in middle of run)
5. Dr. J (ABA)
6. Wade (5 games in a first round loss)

That's it. And that's just for one year. Not a 3 year peak like LeBron.

Why are we comparing aggregate metrics with arbitrary coefficients like PER, WS/48, BPM when we can just look at basic box scores... Especially when those aggregate metrics favor perimeter players and a lot of all time peaks are big men.

Per 75 Possessions

2008-10 Lebron: 30.4 pts, 8.6 reb (1.3 o), 7.4 ast, 1.7 stl, 1.3 blk on 58.3 %TS (+4.0 rTS) with 3.5 tov
2021-23 Jokic: 30.5 pts, 13.1 reb (3.6 o), 7.8 ast, 1.1 stl, 1.0 blk on 62.1 %TS (+4.8 rTS) with 3.5 tov

It's not just MJ. Jokic's three-year run looks a bit better than Lebron's too.

And now two guys with different statistical profiles that are arguable vs. Lebron.

1977-79 Kareem: 25.2 pts, 12.3 reb (3.0 o), 3.5 ast, 1.1 stl, 3.0 blk on 62.6 %TS (+10.8 rTS) with 3.1 tov
2000-02 Shaq: 28.0 pts, 13.6 reb (4.5 o), 2.9 ast, 0.5 stl, 2.3 blk on 56.2 %TS (+4.2 rTS) with 2.9 tov

It should be noted that Kareem carried a heavier minutes load so his per 75 stats are probably a bit depressed. To be safe you can give him ~27/13/4 which is absurd with his efficiency.

Shaq has the weakest argument in terms of box score.

[homecourtloss]

Not sure why you're citing DRtg with KG on the court and not overall DRtg.

Anyways.. it's an obvious outlier. ~8 points/75 more on higher efficiency with fewer turnovers.

Playoffs Per 75

2006 Lebron: 27.8/7.3/5.3 on +2.1 rTS with 4.5 to (13 games)
2007 Lebron: 23.6/7.6/7.5 on -2.5 rTS with 3.1 to (20 games)
2008 Lebron: 27.8/7.7/7.5 on -1.5 rTS with 4.1 to (13 games)
2009 Lebron: 35.6/9.2/7.4 on +7.4 rTS with 2.8 to (14 games) ---> OUTLIER
2010 Lebron: 27.1/8.6/7.1 on +6.4 rTS with 3.5 to (11 games)
2011 Lebron: 22.5/8.0/5.6 on +2.2 rTS with 3.0 to (21 games)
2012 Lebron: 29.0/9.3/5.4 on +4.9 rTS with 3.4 to (23 games)
2013 Lebron: 25.6/8.3/6.5 on +5.0 rTS with 3.0 to (23 games)
2014 Lebron: 30.0/7.7/5.2 on +12.7 rTS with 3.4 to (20 games)
2015 Lebron: 28.3/10.7/8.0 on -4.7 rTS with 3.8 to (20 games)
2016 Lebron: 26.7/9.7/7.7 on +4.4 rTS with 3.6 to (21 games)
2017 Lebron: 29.6/8.3/7.1 on +9.7 rTS with 3.6 to (18 games)
2018 Lebron: 31.9/8.6/8.5 on +6.4 rTS with 4.0 to (22 games)
2020 Lebron: 28.2/11.0/8.9 on +8.2 rTS with 4.1 to (21 games)
2021 Lebron: 24.0/7.4/8.3 on -0.7 rTS with 4.3 to (6 games)
2023 Lebron: 23.3/9.4/6.2 on +0.3 rTS with 2.4 to (16 games)
Career Lebron: 27.6/8.8/7.0 on +3.7 rTS with 3.5 to (282 games)

Mathematically speaking, it’s not an outlier. If you want to colloquially say it was an “outlier,” ok, but basically his whole career is an outlier. Also, it DID happen, and it was done by a GoAT player who also did it in the same regular season. Frankly, if Ben Wallace doesn’t get injured, I think they win title losing maybe 3-4 games.

Lebron has come close to the 2009 RS. Namely in 2010 and 2013 for instance. He's never come close to his 2009 postseason in terms of box score.

Nobody has. It’s a feather in his cap that it was he who did so.

LOL at "whole career is an outlier". What kind of retort is that?

Not sure how you're mathematically figuring out whether something is an outlier. With a p value of 0.05, it's more than two standard deviations from the mean in normally distributed data that's considered an outlier. That's standard practice. But anyways, whether it's mathematically an outlier or not is irrelevant. The point is that no one can reasonably expect Lebron to maintain that kind of production over a larger sample. Let's call it a colloquial outlier if you wish.

As for "nobody has", quite a few players have matched or exceeded Lebron's production if we compare longer playoff peaks than like 14 games. Say 3-year or 5-year playoff peak which is what most serious analysis usually does acknowledging the noise in small samples.

If you look at something like career RAPM, the top players are outliers if taking into consideration the entire data set. Someone like LeBron is an outlier, even without taking the entire data set into consideration.

You specifically said that LeBron hadn’t come close to his 2009 box score, which implies a single season run; then you shifted to three year or five year playoff runs. 2009, an “outlier” according to you, happened to be a GoAT run by a GoAT player, not some random player. Even if it were never replicated, and it has not been replicated by anyone since then (and had never been done before), well, this is what GoAT peaks look like, i.e., seemingly implausible that have to be labeled “outliers.”

[Djoker]

Mathematically speaking, it’s not an outlier. If you want to colloquially say it was an “outlier,” ok, but basically his whole career is an outlier. Also, it DID happen, and it was done by a GoAT player who also did it in the same regular season. Frankly, if Ben Wallace doesn’t get injured, I think they win title losing maybe 3-4 games.



Nobody has. It’s a feather in his cap that it was he who did so.

LOL at "whole career is an outlier". What kind of retort is that?

Not sure how you're mathematically figuring out whether something is an outlier. With a p value of 0.05, it's more than two standard deviations from the mean in normally distributed data that's considered an outlier. That's standard practice. But anyways, whether it's mathematically an outlier or not is irrelevant. The point is that no one can reasonably expect Lebron to maintain that kind of production over a larger sample. Let's call it a colloquial outlier if you wish.

As for "nobody has", quite a few players have matched or exceeded Lebron's production if we compare longer playoff peaks than like 14 games. Say 3-year or 5-year playoff peak which is what most serious analysis usually does acknowledging the noise in small samples.

If you look at something like career RAPM, the top players are outliers if taking into consideration the entire data set. Someone like LeBron is an outlier, even without taking the entire data set into consideration.

You specifically said that LeBron hadn’t come close to his 2009 box score, which implies a single season run; then you shifted to three year or five year playoff runs. 2009, an “outlier” according to you, happened to be a GoAT run by a GoAT player, not some random player. Even if it were never replicated, and it has not been replicated by anyone since then (and had never been done before), well, this is what GoAT peaks look like, i.e., seemingly implausible that have to be labeled “outliers.”

Ok.

I simply said that a 14-game sample is too small to designate as a "peak". That's why 3-5 year postseason samples should be used.

Just like 2009 Lebron's true level is probably close to an average of 2008-2010, the same applies to 2013 Lebron whose level is probably close to an average of 2012-2014. It goes both ways.

[Grimreaper]

Given

There isn't really much of a coherent case for '13 over '09 other than RANGZZZ and narrative.

There’s really just zero meaning to be taken from data derived from that kind of sample. Honestly, even if we expanded it out to include three-year samples, it’s still too small a sample to be very meaningful.

on/off is intrinsically small since its mostly based on what happens 2-12 minutes without a guy, but if 2009 is really just a fluke like djoker keeps saying then

Read on Twitter

?t=6Kb7XW7he-M9bGrjbWtCIQ&s=33

why is this fluke still true for his career when we go by game. Only dude who tops him is steph with half the gp but lets dismiss the best basketball season ever played coz its noisy or something.

Racking up a high BPM is of course a good deal easier when the first round makes up such a large portion of the games. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that he did get a good Celtics team in the ECSF two of those years. But still. Those great stats are largely driven by incredible early-round stats, and it’s likely those stats would not have remained as high if his team was going to the finals every year (like he was with the Heat).

Oh right. The team that won the champion the first year lebron faced them and nearly won the second year he faced them was just good and its not like Lebron played them with an elbow injury or something.

also lets stop this box-watching. Lebron was the best defender of anyone here and was also way more involved in the cavs offense while being the only guy whose team coudnt cross 20 dubs without him. why are we using gamescore like that means something to the most versatile dude ever.

Lebron played the best hoops anyone had ever played and instead of just admitting it, oldheads been brainwashing everyone that it doesn't count.

Only reason this thread exists

[Grimreaper]

Curry win% diff is influenced heavily by the 2020 season he missed, also kobe not to shaby

[Djoker]

There isn't really much of a coherent case for '13 over '09 other than RANGZZZ and narrative.

There’s really just zero meaning to be taken from data derived from that kind of sample. Honestly, even if we expanded it out to include three-year samples, it’s still too small a sample to be very meaningful.

on/off is intrinsically small since its mostly based on what happens 2-12 minutes without a guy, but if 2009 is really just a fluke like djoker keeps saying then

Read on Twitter

?t=6Kb7XW7he-M9bGrjbWtCIQ&s=33

why is this fluke still true for his career when we go by game. Only dude who tops him is steph with half the gp but lets dismiss the best basketball season ever played coz its noisy or something.

Racking up a high BPM is of course a good deal easier when the first round makes up such a large portion of the games. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that he did get a good Celtics team in the ECSF two of those years. But still. Those great stats are largely driven by incredible early-round stats, and it’s likely those stats would not have remained as high if his team was going to the finals every year (like he was with the Heat).

Oh right. The team that won the champion the first year lebron faced them and nearly won the second year he faced them was just good and its not like Lebron played them with an elbow injury or something.

also lets stop this box-watching. Lebron was the best defender of anyone here and was also way more involved in the cavs offense while being the only guy whose team coudnt cross 20 dubs without him. why are we using gamescore like that means something to the most versatile dude ever.

Lebron played the best hoops anyone had ever played and instead of just admitting it, oldheads been brainwashing everyone that it doesn't count.

Only reason this thread exists

First off, those career numbers have a ridiculous sampling bias. For example, most games without Jordan come from 1994 and 1995. So in essence, most of the without sample is from the seasons his teams had the strongest supporting casts. With Curry we see the opposite. A large chunk of his without sample is from 2020 when Klay also missed a huge chunk of the season and the Warriors tanked.

Also a bunch of players would sit games right before the playoffs where other starters would rest too. Those can sometimes make up a decent chunk of without games.

If you go season by season, you can deduce something from WOWY especially if you apply context but career aggregates just don't seem useful for me.

[lessthanjake]

There isn't really much of a coherent case for '13 over '09 other than RANGZZZ and narrative.

There’s really just zero meaning to be taken from data derived from that kind of sample. Honestly, even if we expanded it out to include three-year samples, it’s still too small a sample to be very meaningful.

on/off is intrinsically small since its mostly based on what happens 2-12 minutes without a guy, but if 2009 is really just a fluke like djoker keeps saying then

Read on Twitter

?t=6Kb7XW7he-M9bGrjbWtCIQ&s=33

why is this fluke still true for his career when we go by game. Only dude who tops him is steph with half the gp but lets dismiss the best basketball season ever played coz its noisy or something.

Single-season on-off is definitely noisy. But it is nothing like the noisiness of playoff on-off. The “off” samples in single-season playoff on-off are just unusably small.

As for the rest of it, I was going to respond to it, but Djoker basically covered what I wanted to say in the post above mine, so I won’t bother repeating it.

Racking up a high BPM is of course a good deal easier when the first round makes up such a large portion of the games. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that he did get a good Celtics team in the ECSF two of those years. But still. Those great stats are largely driven by incredible early-round stats, and it’s likely those stats would not have remained as high if his team was going to the finals every year (like he was with the Heat).

Oh right. The team that won the champion the first year lebron faced them and nearly won the second year he faced them was just good and it’s not like Lebron played them with an elbow injury or something.

Yes, and you’ll notice that LeBron’s stats in those series you refer to weren’t nearly as good as his stats overall in those playoffs. That’s because his playoff stats in those years were substantially better in the early-round matchups against easy teams. That’s to be expected, of course, but it does suggest his playoff box stats in that timeframe would likely have gone down if a higher percent of his playoff matches were against good opponents (as they would’ve been if he made deeper playoff runs in those years, like he himself did in later timespans—such as the other LeBron timespan that this thread is about—and like other all-time greats have done in certain timespans). I don’t think this should be a particularly controversial point.

also lets stop this box-watching. Lebron was the best defender of anyone here and was also way more involved in the cavs offense while being the only guy whose team coudnt cross 20 dubs without him. why are we using gamescore like that means something to the most versatile dude ever.

Lebron played the best hoops anyone had ever played and instead of just admitting it, oldheads been brainwashing everyone that it doesn't count.

Only reason this thread exists

Just want to note that this part of your post makes no sense, given the context. You say “LeBron was the best defender of anyone here” and the “only reason this thread exists” is because people refuse to admit LeBron “played the best hoops anyone had ever played.” But this thread (and my post you were responding to) is not about comparing anyone to LeBron. It’s explicitly about comparing LeBron to LeBron. Your comments seem off topic.

[lessthanjake]

There’s really just zero meaning to be taken from data derived from that kind of sample. Honestly, even if we expanded it out to include three-year samples, it’s still too small a sample to be very meaningful.

on/off is intrinsically small since its mostly based on what happens 2-12 minutes without a guy, but if 2009 is really just a fluke like djoker keeps saying then

Read on Twitter

?t=6Kb7XW7he-M9bGrjbWtCIQ&s=33

why is this fluke still true for his career when we go by game. Only dude who tops him is steph with half the gp but lets dismiss the best basketball season ever played coz its noisy or something.

Racking up a high BPM is of course a good deal easier when the first round makes up such a large portion of the games. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that he did get a good Celtics team in the ECSF two of those years. But still. Those great stats are largely driven by incredible early-round stats, and it’s likely those stats would not have remained as high if his team was going to the finals every year (like he was with the Heat).

Oh right. The team that won the champion the first year lebron faced them and nearly won the second year he faced them was just good and its not like Lebron played them with an elbow injury or something.

also lets stop this box-watching. Lebron was the best defender of anyone here and was also way more involved in the cavs offense while being the only guy whose team coudnt cross 20 dubs without him. why are we using gamescore like that means something to the most versatile dude ever.

Lebron played the best hoops anyone had ever played and instead of just admitting it, oldheads been brainwashing everyone that it doesn't count.

Only reason this thread exists

First off, those career numbers have a ridiculous sampling bias. For example, most games without Jordan come from 1994 and 1995. So in essence, most of the without sample is from the seasons his teams had the strongest supporting casts. With Curry we see the opposite. A large chunk of his without sample is from 2020 when Klay also missed a huge chunk of the season and the Warriors tanked.

Also a bunch of players would sit games right before the playoffs where other starters would rest too. Those can sometimes make up a decent chunk of without games.

If you go season by season, you can deduce something from WOWY especially if you apply context but career aggregates just don't seem useful for me.

Good post! I agree and was writing up something that said very similar things, and then saw your post and decided to just refer back to that.

One thing I want to add is that things like WOWYR are, in large part, attempts to correct for the kinds of issues you’re referring to regarding WOWY. And WOWYR doesn’t have LeBron coming out at the top. So that suggests that these issues are a major factor relating to the data that was posted. Of course, WOWYR has its own issues, too. Ultimately, there’s no perfect metric (or even a close to perfect metric)—everything we have is seriously flawed. And so I think focusing on any one thing is likely to just lead to conclusions that are heavily influenced by whatever the flaws are in the data one is choosing to focus on.

[PooledSilver]

The narrative of lebron needed to learn from 2011 comes from the man himself…

Don’t think it matters because he did

[Dr Positivity]

You can't just base it all on one playoff run's stats considering he played Detroit and Atlanta in 1st two rounds and Orlando team that was 1st in defense but who's SF/PF of Hedo and Rashard is not exactly built to shut down Lebron, I would take defenses like the 2010s Pacers and Spurs against Lebron over that team pretty easily. And when it comes to defense there is nuance like how despite Lebron's 38ppg, the Cavs actually had a worse offense than regular season, so what happened? I haven't rewatched 09 ECF games any time recently, but if you told me Orlando wasn't selling out the rest of their defense to stop Lebron it would add up.

Lebron has better driving in 2009, but it's not hard for me to imagine that packing the paint/building a wall/playing 10 feet off his jumper, could be more successful in a playoff series than if you did it against mid Heat version.

[TheGOATRises007]

You can't just base it all on one playoff run's stats considering he played Detroit and Atlanta in 1st two rounds and Orlando team that was 1st in defense but who's SF/PF of Hedo and Rashard is not exactly built to shut down Lebron, I would take defenses like the 2010s Pacers and Spurs against Lebron over that team pretty easily. And when it comes to defense there is nuance like how despite Lebron's 38ppg, the Cavs actually had a worse offense than regular season, so what happened? I haven't rewatched 09 ECF games any time recently, but if you told me Orlando wasn't selling out the rest of their defense to stop Lebron it would add up.

Lebron has better driving in 2009, but it's not hard for me to imagine that packing the paint/building a wall/playing 10 feet off his jumper, could be more successful in a playoff series than if you did it against mid Heat version.

The Spurs did that in 2013 and LeBron struggled the 1st 5 games displaying passiveness similar to 2011.

The way he closed 6 and 7 was great, but some forget how 'average' he looked for LeBron standards the 1st 5 games.

[OhayoKD]

You can't just base it all on one playoff run's stats considering he played Detroit and Atlanta in 1st two rounds and Orlando team that was 1st in defense but who's SF/PF of Hedo and Rashard is not exactly built to shut down Lebron, I would take defenses like the 2010s Pacers and Spurs against Lebron over that team pretty easily. And when it comes to defense there is nuance like how despite Lebron's 38ppg, the Cavs actually had a worse offense than regular season, so what happened? I haven't rewatched 09 ECF games any time recently, but if you told me Orlando wasn't selling out the rest of their defense to stop Lebron it would add up.

Lebron has better driving in 2009, but it's not hard for me to imagine that packing the paint/building a wall/playing 10 feet off his jumper, could be more successful in a playoff series than if you did it against mid Heat version.

I think you got it backwards. The cavs o-rating was much better in the playoffs and the magic. They got blown up defensively though which I'd attribute to a combination of

1. Ben Wallace got injured half way through the season and became a non-factor, taking away what would have been their best(at least for the 30 minutes or so he played) and most explostive rim-protector
2. The Magic got red-hot from 3

A point-per game on average was the difference so it's not hard seeing either factor swinging things the other way.

And the Magic very definitely did not let lebron get his or whatever. The cavs offense was running through him more than it probablt has ever run for anyone ever and he consequently was dealing with multiple defenders on nearly every play:
[url]

Watch on YouTube

[/url]

(possession 10 is at 8:04 for anyone who wants to vet)

Possession 1: Hedo guards up and Dwight stretches out his arms to cover the backdoor, Lebron hits the pass anyway(size is a big advantage) taking out 2 defenders with a pass that's impossible for basically any not magic-sized guard. layup

Possession 2: Mo Williams passes it to Lebron in the corner who again, is outright doubled and hits a bounce pass for another open layup. Another high quality read which isn't happening if Lebron isn't as big and strong as he is(so basically guards are locked out of making this one too).

Possesion 3: Doubled as he drives kicks out for shooter whose kind of open and upfakes to get wide open. All 3 of these plays feature help from DPOY Dwight though I guess it's possible for a guard to get this one off. Lebron then fights dwight on an island to win another possession(rebounds are not created equal folks)

Possession 4: First Play Lebron is not the primary creator, Lebron drives and someone tries to hedge to cut both the driving lane and the corner dude so the cavs do a screeen and handoff to circumvent and mo williams cooks with a sliver of space leading to a verajoa score.

Possession 5 Lebron gets the ball at the mid-post and is doubled by two dudes(including dpoy dwight) and a third dude govers to close off a potential receipent. Screen comes allowing Lebron to reset and hedo covers while dwight, like in the first possession stretches out his arms to prevent any potential backdoors. In the confusion West is unaccounted and Lebron hits him for a wide-open three.

Possession 6 Lebron cuts to get the ball and one dude guards up while the other dude covers the passing lane. Again, Lebron bypasses both with a pass that would be alot harder to make if you were guard-sized. Interesting none of these are lobs(maybe due to a lack of explositiveness+the threat of dpoy dwight), but dwight gobbles up verajoa only for big z to convert the rebound. Lebron clearly the primary creator here, but one of his less valuable plays I guess.

Possession 7 Transition, three defenders key in on Lebron passes for what would be a wide-open jumper. Not taken for some reason so play resets. Lebron pretends he's going to go for another interior pass causing a 2nd defender to cheat towards him and then a screen comes leaving the dude who passed up the first pass wide-open but this time with time to spare

Possession 8 Lebron gets ball half-court in transtion, two defenders get in each other's way defending him. Magic don't get sorted in time so Lebron makes an easy read for another open three, but this time it clanks.

Possession 9 3 defenders(including dpoy dwight) collapse on Lebron to contain his drive and are successful. First negative play/decision from Lebron

Possession 10 First time Magic leave a single defender on Lebron, goes for jumper and clanks

So, in 5 minutes of basketball, with a single exception, whenever Lebron has the ball(and as we know he has it alot) the Magic dedicate two defenders towards him including, typically, DPOY Dwight Howard. When he is looking to pass, they'll throw an extra dude to make passing harder. When he might go to score they double him. The only instances when he has the ball and isn't having two defenders specifically decidated to him is when the cavs run a screen or handoff to prevent it.

This is not the triangle. There isn't another elite scoring threat, ball-handler, creator, or even explosive athelete for the defense to worry about so they wisely kept putting an extra player to prevent James from doing whatever they figured he was trying to do and Lebron responded by...

dropping 49 points on 71% true-shooting and turning the ball over twice.

Also, you might notice that Lebron created 6 looks here(going to be harsh and not count possession 8) with two of them being about featuring passes as valuable and irreplaceable as it comes(lack of a strong rim-runner makes both especially tough not to mention the dwight howard aspect of things). For his efforts he came away with 3 assists, one of which comes after lebron had to manipulate extra defenders a second time after his first play which took out 3 defenders wasn't capitalised on. Put another way, for those 3 assists, Lebron took out a combined 9 defenders, and that isn't counting whoever was chasing verajoa.

If rondo is one scale of assist quality, Cleveland Lebron is on the polar opposite. Something to keep in mind for the series Lebron averaged, per 100, a hypereffecient 50-point triple double(with those numbers going up in the 4th quarters)

Just want to note that this part of your post makes no sense, given the context. You say “LeBron was the best defender of anyone here” and the “only reason this thread exists” is because people refuse to admit LeBron “played the best hoops anyone had ever played.” But this thread (and my post you were responding to) is not about comparing anyone to LeBron. It’s explicitly about comparing LeBron to LeBron. Your comments seem off topic.

They are referring to the players listed by djoker I think for those 3-year gamescore spans. And yes, if Lebron is matching you in gamescore he's almost certainly offering more than you are. See above.

Yes, and you’ll notice that LeBron’s stats in those series you refer to weren’t nearly as good as his stats overall in those playoffs. That’s because his playoff stats in those years were substantially better in the early-round matchups against easy teams.

[/quote]
Their point is that both of those series were "early round matchups". In other words, applying your logic, if Lebron had played later rounds, we might expect his numbers to improve. If Lebron had played the champion/near champion in the finals or conference finals, your caveat would make more sense. But he played both in the early rounds and as a result Lebron missed out on a couple of easier matchups later on.

[/quote]
Generally that sampling would be biased against players with longer careers.

Granted there's always a risk of simpson's paradox with longer samples, but given that Lebron's concentrated season to season wowy is well documated, this doesn't really apply here. It's also more prevalent with on/off anyway(2-12 minutes) even if you focus on a single season

1995 being one of the "best supporting casts" is also a reach considering Grant's absence and Pippen filing a trade-request. And also, like Lebron, the season to season concentrated stuff is also well documented(sometimes massaged to make look Jordan look better).

Steph's WOWY benefits from 2020 but it's not like he wouldn't be one of the top players here regardless. 2021 and 2022 were great for him and the warriors didn't do very well(in the regular season) when he missed time in 2018.

[Dr Positivity]

You can't just base it all on one playoff run's stats considering he played Detroit and Atlanta in 1st two rounds and Orlando team that was 1st in defense but who's SF/PF of Hedo and Rashard is not exactly built to shut down Lebron, I would take defenses like the 2010s Pacers and Spurs against Lebron over that team pretty easily. And when it comes to defense there is nuance like how despite Lebron's 38ppg, the Cavs actually had a worse offense than regular season, so what happened? I haven't rewatched 09 ECF games any time recently, but if you told me Orlando wasn't selling out the rest of their defense to stop Lebron it would add up.

Lebron has better driving in 2009, but it's not hard for me to imagine that packing the paint/building a wall/playing 10 feet off his jumper, could be more successful in a playoff series than if you did it against mid Heat version.

I think you got it backwards. The cavs o-rating was much better in the playoffs and the magic. They got blown up defensively though which I'd attribute to a combination of

1. Ben Wallace got injured half way through the season and became a non-factor, taking away what would have been their best(at least for the 30 minutes or so he played) and most explostive rim-protector
2. The Magic got red-hot from 3

A point-per game on average was the difference so it's not hard seeing either factor swinging things the other way.

And the Magic very definitely did not let lebron get his or whatever. The cavs offense was running through him more than it probablt has ever run for anyone ever and he consequently was dealing with multiple defenders on nearly every play:
[url]

Watch on YouTube

[/url]

(possession 10 is at 8:04 for anyone who wants to vet)

Possession 1: Hedo guards up and Dwight stretches out his arms to cover the backdoor, Lebron hits the pass anyway(size is a big advantage) taking out 2 defenders with a pass that's impossible for basically any not magic-sized guard. open layup

Possession 2: Mo Williams passes it to Lebron in the corner who again, is outright doubled and hits a bounce pass for another open layup. Another high quality read which isn't happening if Lebron isn't as big and strong as he is(so basically guards are locked out of making this one too).

Possesion 3: Doubled as he drives kicks out for shooter whose kind of open and upfakes to get wide open. All 3 of these plays feature help from DPOY Dwight though I guess it's possible for a guard to get this one off. Lebron then fights dwight on an island to win another possession(rebounds are not created equal folks)

Possession 4: First Play Lebron is not the primary creator, Lebron drives and someone tries to hedge to cut both the driving lane and the corner dude so the cavs do a screeen and handoff to circumvent and mo williams cooks with a sliver of space leading to a verajoa score.

Possession 5 Lebron gets the ball at the mid-post and is doubled by two dudes(including dpoy dwight) and a third dude govers to close off a potential receipent. Screen comes allowing Lebron to reset and hedo covers while dwight, like in the first possession stretches out his arms to prevent any potential backdoors. In the confusion West is unaccounted and Lebron hits him for a wide-open three.

Possession 6 Lebron cuts to get the ball and one dude guards up while the other dude covers the passing lane. Again, Lebron bypasses both with a pass that would be alot harder to make if you were guard-sized. Interesting none of these are lobs(maybe due to a lack of explositiveness+the threat of dpoy dwight), but dwight gobbles up verajoa only for big z to convert the rebound. Lebron clearly the primary creator here, but one of his less valuable plays I guess.

Possession 7 Transition, three defenders key in on Lebron passes for what would be a wide-open jumper. Not taken for some reason so play resets. Lebron pretends he's going to go for another interior pass causing a 2nd defender to cheat towards him and then a screen comes leaving the dude who passed up the first pass wide-open but this time with time to spare

Possession 8 Lebron gets ball half-court in transtion, two defenders get in each other's way defending him. Magic don't get sorted in time so Lebron makes an easy read for another open three, but this time it clanks.

Possession 9 3 defenders(including dpoy dwight) collapse on Lebron to contain his drive and are successful. First negative play/decision from Lebron

Possession 10 First time Magic leave a single defender on Lebron, goes for jumper and clanks

So, in 5 minutes of basketball, with a single exception, whenever Lebron has the ball(and as we know he has it alot) the Magic dedicate two defenders towards him including, typically, DPOY Dwight Howard. When he is looking to pass, they'll throw an extra dude to make passing harder. When he might go to score they double him. The only instances when he has the ball and isn't having two defenders specifically decidated to him is when the cavs run a screen or handoff to prevent it.

Watch on YouTube

I'm seeing quite a few plays where he's iso-ing one guy, or with relatively late help. For example at 2-4 minute mark he has a run of plays like that in a row. It probably would have been poor strategy by the Magic to relentlessly surround him with perimeter defenders instead of using relying on Dwight if he gets past guys. Not saying he didn't face a double in the series.

[lessthanjake]

Just want to note that this part of your post makes no sense, given the context. You say “LeBron was the best defender of anyone here” and the “only reason this thread exists” is because people refuse to admit LeBron “played the best hoops anyone had ever played.” But this thread (and my post you were responding to) is not about comparing anyone to LeBron. It’s explicitly about comparing LeBron to LeBron. Your comments seem off topic.

They are referring to the players listed by djoker I think for those 3-year gamescore spans. And yes, if Lebron is matching you in gamescore he's almost certainly offering more than you are. See above.

I don’t really know what players you’re referring to Djoker having listed, and the post was responding to something I said not Djoker. If GrimReaper wants to explain what players they were referring to, then they can do so (though I realize that you responding may well be the same as GrimReaper responding—if that’s the case then at least change accounts when responding on that account’s behalf). I’d also note that the only lists of other players I see recently in this thread (whether listed by Djoker or others) are ones that include players that are pretty unequivocally better defenders than LeBron (Hakeem, peak Kareem, Garnett, Duncan, etc.), so if one of those lists are what was being referred to then the statements GrimReaper made (including that “LeBron was the best defender of anyone here”) were not only off topic and directed at the wrong person, but also factually incorrect.

Their point is that both of those series were "early round matchups". In other words, applying your logic, if Lebron had played later rounds, we might expect his numbers to improve. If Lebron had played the champion/near champion in the finals or conference finals, your caveat would make more sense. But he played both in the early rounds and as a result Lebron missed out on a couple of easier matchups later on.

No, we wouldn’t expect his numbers to improve if he played later rounds. We can easily see that his numbers in those years were driven by having put up really fantastic numbers against teams that were not good (largely in the first round). Deeper playoff runs would mean more matches against teams that are actually good. We would obviously expect this to dilute his overall numbers. The fact that the Celtics were a good team and they met them in the second round is a relevant point that I noted in the first post I made about this. Those obviously aren’t the easy early-round matchups I’m talking about though. This is really not a difficult concept. The average SRS of the games he played in those playoff years (weighted by games played against each opponent, which yields a higher average) was 3.10. That is okay, but obviously we’d expect that to go up if he made deeper playoff runs—such that the average opponent quality would go up. And we’d expect that to result in lower numbers. To dig into it more granularly, almost 40% of LeBron’s playoff games in those years were against negative SRS opponents. He dominated those opponents. And another 10% of his playoff games in those years were against a 1.70 SRS team. He dominated that opponent too. These are the series that are largely driving the playoff numbers. Would we expect those numbers to be matched in later rounds against better opponents? No, we wouldn’t. And while he put up somewhat similar numbers against the Magic (a good team), the overall picture in the few series against good opponents he did have was definitely a step below what he was doing against the middling opponents. That’s not at all surprising, of course. But if he made deeper runs, a higher proportion of his playoff series would’ve been against good opponents, and it’s quite likely that’d dilute his numbers. I’m sure they’d still have been good, but I don’t think we can really compare the Heat-era playoff numbers to the 2008-2010 era playoff numbers as if it’s an apples to apples comparison.

[OhayoKD]

They are referring to the players listed by djoker I think for those 3-year gamescore spans. And yes, if Lebron is matching you in gamescore he's almost certainly offering more than you are. See above.

I don’t really know what players you’re referring to Djoker having listed, and the post was responding to something I said not Djoker.

They quoted both of you as well as iggymcfrack:

Here are the playoff game scores grouped from '09 and '13:

Game scores in 2009 playoffs
40+: 2
35-40: 1
30-35: 4
25-30: 4
20-25: 1
15-20: 2
10-15: 0

Game scores in 2013 playoffs
40+: 0
35-40: 0
30-35: 2
25-30: 5
20-25: 9
15-20: 4
10-15: 3

Those just aren't remotely comparable performances. '09 LeBron has 7 games with a game score over 30 and 3 under 25. '13 LeBron has 2 games with a game score over 30 and 16 games under 25. LeBron's 11th best game (out of 14) in '09 has a higher game score than his 5th best game (out of 23) in '13. And then there's the on/off stuff:

'09 Cavs with Bron: +11.6
'09 Cavs w/o Bron: +3.2

'13 Heat with Bron: +7.3
'13 Heat w/o Bron: +7.1

Why are we comparing aggregate metrics with arbitrary coefficients like PER, WS/48, BPM when we can just look at basic box scores... Especially when those aggregate metrics favor perimeter players and a lot of all time peaks are big men.

Per 75 Possessions

2008-10 Lebron: 30.4 pts, 8.6 reb (1.3 o), 7.4 ast, 1.7 stl, 1.3 blk on 58.3 %TS (+4.0 rTS) with 3.5 tov
2021-23 Jokic: 30.5 pts, 13.1 reb (3.6 o), 7.8 ast, 1.1 stl, 1.0 blk on 62.1 %TS (+4.8 rTS) with 3.5 tov

It's not just MJ. Jokic's three-year run looks a bit better than Lebron's too.

And now two guys with different statistical profiles that are arguable vs. Lebron.

1977-79 Kareem: 25.2 pts, 12.3 reb (3.0 o), 3.5 ast, 1.1 stl, 3.0 blk on 62.6 %TS (+10.8 rTS) with 3.1 tov
2000-02 Shaq: 28.0 pts, 13.6 reb (4.5 o), 2.9 ast, 0.5 stl, 2.3 blk on 56.2 %TS (+4.2 rTS) with 2.9 tov

It should be noted that Kareem carried a heavier minutes load so his per 75 stats are probably a bit depressed. To be safe you can give him ~27/13/4 which is absurd with his efficiency.

Shaq has the weakest argument in terms of box score.

And yeah, Kareem is probably the actual best defender here.

If GrimReaper wants to explain what players they were referring to, then they can do so (though I realize that you responding may well be the same as GrimReaper responding—if that’s the case then at least change accounts when responding on that account’s behalf).

I’m not sure what I said to you to make you respond this rudely. I thought I was perfectly polite to you (and I believe I’ve been polite to you in this response too)

Really though, I wouldnt assume everyone who cooks you is me. It happens too much to be just one person.

No, we wouldn’t expect his numbers to improve if he played later rounds. We can easily see that his numbers in those years were driven by having put up really fantastic numbers against teams that were not good (largely in the first round). Deeper playoff runs would mean more matches against teams that are actually good. We would obviously expect this to dilute his overall numbers. The fact that the Celtics were a good team and they met them in the second round is a relevant point that I noted in the first post I made about this. Those obviously aren’t the easy early-round matchups I’m talking about though. This is really not a difficult concept.

I know you're from Havard but you might want to work on yer concision. This is a lot of words and syllblyes to say; "Lebron's numbers went down vs the celtics and this proves my point". Of course that still isn't a coherent response to, "okay but what happens after he plays the best or 2nd best team and best defense in the league", but if you're going to be incoherent, you can at least try being brief.

[lessthanjake]

They are referring to the players listed by djoker I think for those 3-year gamescore spans. And yes, if Lebron is matching you in gamescore he's almost certainly offering more than you are. See above.

I don’t really know what players you’re referring to Djoker having listed, and the post was responding to something I said not Djoker.

They quoted both of you as well as iggymcfrack:

Here are the playoff game scores grouped from '09 and '13:

Game scores in 2009 playoffs
40+: 2
35-40: 1
30-35: 4
25-30: 4
20-25: 1
15-20: 2
10-15: 0

Game scores in 2013 playoffs
40+: 0
35-40: 0
30-35: 2
25-30: 5
20-25: 9
15-20: 4
10-15: 3

Those just aren't remotely comparable performances. '09 LeBron has 7 games with a game score over 30 and 3 under 25. '13 LeBron has 2 games with a game score over 30 and 16 games under 25. LeBron's 11th best game (out of 14) in '09 has a higher game score than his 5th best game (out of 23) in '13. And then there's the on/off stuff:

'09 Cavs with Bron: +11.6
'09 Cavs w/o Bron: +3.2

'13 Heat with Bron: +7.3
'13 Heat w/o Bron: +7.1

Why are we comparing aggregate metrics with arbitrary coefficients like PER, WS/48, BPM when we can just look at basic box scores... Especially when those aggregate metrics favor perimeter players and a lot of all time peaks are big men.

Per 75 Possessions

2008-10 Lebron: 30.4 pts, 8.6 reb (1.3 o), 7.4 ast, 1.7 stl, 1.3 blk on 58.3 %TS (+4.0 rTS) with 3.5 tov
2021-23 Jokic: 30.5 pts, 13.1 reb (3.6 o), 7.8 ast, 1.1 stl, 1.0 blk on 62.1 %TS (+4.8 rTS) with 3.5 tov

It's not just MJ. Jokic's three-year run looks a bit better than Lebron's too.

And now two guys with different statistical profiles that are arguable vs. Lebron.

1977-79 Kareem: 25.2 pts, 12.3 reb (3.0 o), 3.5 ast, 1.1 stl, 3.0 blk on 62.6 %TS (+10.8 rTS) with 3.1 tov
2000-02 Shaq: 28.0 pts, 13.6 reb (4.5 o), 2.9 ast, 0.5 stl, 2.3 blk on 56.2 %TS (+4.2 rTS) with 2.9 tov

It should be noted that Kareem carried a heavier minutes load so his per 75 stats are probably a bit depressed. To be safe you can give him ~27/13/4 which is absurd with his efficiency.

Shaq has the weakest argument in terms of box score.

And yeah, Kareem is probably the actual best defender here.

If GrimReaper wants to explain what players they were referring to, then they can do so (though I realize that you responding may well be the same as GrimReaper responding—if that’s the case then at least change accounts when responding on that account’s behalf).

I’m not sure what I said to you to make you respond this rudely. I thought I was perfectly polite to you (and I believe I’ve been polite to you in this response too)

Really though, I wouldnt assume everyone who cooks you is me. It happens too much to be just one person.

No, we wouldn’t expect his numbers to improve if he played later rounds. We can easily see that his numbers in those years were driven by having put up really fantastic numbers against teams that were not good (largely in the first round). Deeper playoff runs would mean more matches against teams that are actually good. We would obviously expect this to dilute his overall numbers. The fact that the Celtics were a good team and they met them in the second round is a relevant point that I noted in the first post I made about this. Those obviously aren’t the easy early-round matchups I’m talking about though. This is really not a difficult concept.

I know you're from Havard but you might want to work on yer concision. This is a lot of words and syllblyes to say; "Lebron's numbers went down vs the celtics and this proves my point". Of course that still isn't a coherent response to, "okay but what happens after he plays the best or 2nd best team and best defense in the league", but if you're going to be incoherent, you can at least try being brief.

Lol, what a childish response. I think we’re obviously done here. If GrimReaper wants to respond to what I said and actually has a substantive point, then he or she can feel free to respond.

[falcolombardi]

The theory would be that lebron 2013 skillset is wider and that makes him more resilient vs more kinds of teams and a more "portable" player

On a poor impact (which is team context influenced) lebron 2009 is one of one, his athletism was otherwordly and his motor was hungrier specially regular season wise

2013 lebron is a bit more theorycraft and giving more weight to how his numbers were still very 2009 when he took on a 2009 load in wade less minutes

[falcolombardi]

There isn't really much of a coherent case for '13 over '09 other than RANGZZZ and narrative.

There’s really just zero meaning to be taken from data derived from that kind of sample. Honestly, even if we expanded it out to include three-year samples, it’s still too small a sample to be very meaningful.

on/off is intrinsically small since its mostly based on what happens 2-12 minutes without a guy, but if 2009 is really just a fluke like djoker keeps saying then

Read on Twitter

?t=6Kb7XW7he-M9bGrjbWtCIQ&s=33

why is this fluke still true for his career when we go by game. Only dude who tops him is steph with half the gp but lets dismiss the best basketball season ever played coz its noisy or something.

Racking up a high BPM is of course a good deal easier when the first round makes up such a large portion of the games. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that he did get a good Celtics team in the ECSF two of those years. But still. Those great stats are largely driven by incredible early-round stats, and it’s likely those stats would not have remained as high if his team was going to the finals every year (like he was with the Heat).

Oh right. The team that won the champion the first year lebron faced them and nearly won the second year he faced them was just good and its not like Lebron played them with an elbow injury or something.

also lets stop this box-watching. Lebron was the best defender of anyone here and was also way more involved in the cavs offense while being the only guy whose team coudnt cross 20 dubs without him. why are we using gamescore like that means something to the most versatile dude ever.

Lebron played the best hoops anyone had ever played and instead of just admitting it, oldheads been brainwashing everyone that it doesn't count.

Only reason this thread exists

You dont get it, you cannot judge lebron on peak as that is too flukey and small sample but also cant judge him on career cause that is just longevity stats

3 year consecutive box score aggregates is the true measure

[homecourtloss]

There’s really just zero meaning to be taken from data derived from that kind of sample. Honestly, even if we expanded it out to include three-year samples, it’s still too small a sample to be very meaningful.

on/off is intrinsically small since its mostly based on what happens 2-12 minutes without a guy, but if 2009 is really just a fluke like djoker keeps saying then

Read on Twitter

?t=6Kb7XW7he-M9bGrjbWtCIQ&s=33

why is this fluke still true for his career when we go by game. Only dude who tops him is steph with half the gp but lets dismiss the best basketball season ever played coz its noisy or something.

Racking up a high BPM is of course a good deal easier when the first round makes up such a large portion of the games. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that he did get a good Celtics team in the ECSF two of those years. But still. Those great stats are largely driven by incredible early-round stats, and it’s likely those stats would not have remained as high if his team was going to the finals every year (like he was with the Heat).

Oh right. The team that won the champion the first year lebron faced them and nearly won the second year he faced them was just good and its not like Lebron played them with an elbow injury or something.

also lets stop this box-watching. Lebron was the best defender of anyone here and was also way more involved in the cavs offense while being the only guy whose team coudnt cross 20 dubs without him. why are we using gamescore like that means something to the most versatile dude ever.

Lebron played the best hoops anyone had ever played and instead of just admitting it, oldheads been brainwashing everyone that it doesn't count.

Only reason this thread exists

You dont get it, you cannot judge lebron on peak as that is too flukey and small sample but also cant judge him on career cause that is just longevity stats

3 year consecutive box score aggregates is the true measure

Good to see you posting again.