What's the argument for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron?

[rk2023]

Can post more numbers about this later, but the crux of it boils down to:

• 09 being a more optimal situation, from an impact standpoint (contrary to others, I don’t see it as “outlier” at all and 2010 James before injury might just be better). In ‘13, much more of a situation to stagger impact was present
• different defenses faced in the Playoffs - and not having to go through three straight combos of an elite wing defender AND defensive anchor big (Noah/Jimmy , Roy/PG , Duncan/Kawhi & friends)
• 13 being a better RS, and the best of everything James has put together

I’ve seen great arguments put forward for 13 and 09 over time - same goes for 16 which is alongside. 2012 is a sneaky good shout too, when you consider context

[Djoker]

There’s really just zero meaning to be taken from data derived from that kind of sample. Honestly, even if we expanded it out to include three-year samples, it’s still too small a sample to be very meaningful.

on/off is intrinsically small since its mostly based on what happens 2-12 minutes without a guy, but if 2009 is really just a fluke like djoker keeps saying then

Read on Twitter

?t=6Kb7XW7he-M9bGrjbWtCIQ&s=33

why is this fluke still true for his career when we go by game. Only dude who tops him is steph with half the gp but lets dismiss the best basketball season ever played coz its noisy or something.

Racking up a high BPM is of course a good deal easier when the first round makes up such a large portion of the games. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that he did get a good Celtics team in the ECSF two of those years. But still. Those great stats are largely driven by incredible early-round stats, and it’s likely those stats would not have remained as high if his team was going to the finals every year (like he was with the Heat).

Oh right. The team that won the champion the first year lebron faced them and nearly won the second year he faced them was just good and its not like Lebron played them with an elbow injury or something.

also lets stop this box-watching. Lebron was the best defender of anyone here and was also way more involved in the cavs offense while being the only guy whose team coudnt cross 20 dubs without him. why are we using gamescore like that means something to the most versatile dude ever.

Lebron played the best hoops anyone had ever played and instead of just admitting it, oldheads been brainwashing everyone that it doesn't count.

Only reason this thread exists

You dont get it, you cannot judge lebron on peak as that is too flukey and small sample but also cant judge him on career cause that is just longevity stats

3 year consecutive box score aggregates is the true measure

Yea because it must be unreasonable to look at a larger sample than 14 games when evaluating a peak and yet something shorter than an entire career.

[OhayoKD]

on/off is intrinsically small since its mostly based on what happens 2-12 minutes without a guy, but if 2009 is really just a fluke like djoker keeps saying then

Read on Twitter

?t=6Kb7XW7he-M9bGrjbWtCIQ&s=33

why is this fluke still true for his career when we go by game. Only dude who tops him is steph with half the gp but lets dismiss the best basketball season ever played coz its noisy or something.

Oh right. The team that won the champion the first year lebron faced them and nearly won the second year he faced them was just good and its not like Lebron played them with an elbow injury or something.

also lets stop this box-watching. Lebron was the best defender of anyone here and was also way more involved in the cavs offense while being the only guy whose team coudnt cross 20 dubs without him. why are we using gamescore like that means something to the most versatile dude ever.

Lebron played the best hoops anyone had ever played and instead of just admitting it, oldheads been brainwashing everyone that it doesn't count.

Only reason this thread exists

You dont get it, you cannot judge lebron on peak as that is too flukey and small sample but also cant judge him on career cause that is just longevity stats

3 year consecutive box score aggregates is the true measure

Yea because it must be unreasonable to look at a larger sample than 14 games when evaluating a peak and yet something shorter than an entire career.

How about 13 years?

lebron 09-21 wowy
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference
-3.68 drtg difference
+12 total swing

[lessthanjake]

There’s really just zero meaning to be taken from data derived from that kind of sample. Honestly, even if we expanded it out to include three-year samples, it’s still too small a sample to be very meaningful.

on/off is intrinsically small since its mostly based on what happens 2-12 minutes without a guy, but if 2009 is really just a fluke like djoker keeps saying then

Read on Twitter

?t=6Kb7XW7he-M9bGrjbWtCIQ&s=33

why is this fluke still true for his career when we go by game. Only dude who tops him is steph with half the gp but lets dismiss the best basketball season ever played coz its noisy or something.

Racking up a high BPM is of course a good deal easier when the first round makes up such a large portion of the games. This is mitigated somewhat by the fact that he did get a good Celtics team in the ECSF two of those years. But still. Those great stats are largely driven by incredible early-round stats, and it’s likely those stats would not have remained as high if his team was going to the finals every year (like he was with the Heat).

Oh right. The team that won the champion the first year lebron faced them and nearly won the second year he faced them was just good and its not like Lebron played them with an elbow injury or something.

also lets stop this box-watching. Lebron was the best defender of anyone here and was also way more involved in the cavs offense while being the only guy whose team coudnt cross 20 dubs without him. why are we using gamescore like that means something to the most versatile dude ever.

Lebron played the best hoops anyone had ever played and instead of just admitting it, oldheads been brainwashing everyone that it doesn't count.

Only reason this thread exists

You dont get it, you cannot judge lebron on peak as that is too flukey and small sample but also cant judge him on career cause that is just longevity stats

3 year consecutive box score aggregates is the true measure

We were talking about playoff on-off stats. When it comes to playoff on-off, it is definitely the case that looking at a single season has too small of a sample size for it to be useful. And if we’re trying to assess something like the question in this thread, then much larger career playoff on-off samples are obviously not useful for the question at hand. I don’t really see how that suggests anyone is being disingenuous (which is what I take you to be implying—correct me if I’m wrong). It is okay for certain data to simply not be useful to a discussion. It’s not the case that a piece of data has to be useful, nor is it the case that the act of explaining that it isn’t useful must be disingenuous and incorrect.

[O_6]

At the time, ‘09 LeBron was the first guy to actually challenge MJ and getting people to think he had GOAT potential. Shaq in ‘00 had people using words like “dominant” instead of “best” because MJ was too recent and he was as a pure athletic specimen who lacked shooting skill aka “a bag” as they say these days. As legendary as Kobe was, one reason he got/gets so much love was because we just knew he was a worse version of MJ besides occasional red hot outside shooting. So he was never a real threat to the crown so people didn’t feel the need to be defensive about MJ with him.

LeBron the day after he hit that playoff game winner vs. Orlando is easily the closest anyone in the last 25 years has gotten to “MJ” status. The discussion was actually being had that this kid we knew from 16 might actually be the one to surpass MJ. Him doing it with a different style got him some crap but that’s the defensive thing that made it clear he was a real threat. Despite killing it that series, Orlando beating them with their ahead of the time build and a dominant Dwight really hurts the way the average sports fan thinks about that version of LeBron.

‘09 LeBron was LeBron at his most “LeBron”. He would’ve been a plus NBA athlete at 16 and remains one at 39. It is incredible what he is athletically. ‘09 was the peak. His size/speed/skill ratio didn’t make sense. The only guy in the convo with ‘09 LeBron as a one legged leaper was ABA Dr. J and LeBron had a significant size and skill advantage over him.

‘13 LeBron was more reserved and well rounded. His versatility was significantly greater than the ‘09 version. He tried to “fit in” instead of “be the man”, more off-ball cutting and shooting and less ball dominant play.

Whereas a guy like Luka ranks #1 in time of possession this year, LeBron ranked 33rd in TOP in ‘14 so I assume ‘13 was similar. In comparison, I’d assume easy Top 10 in ‘09 maybe Top 5.

Long story short. ‘09 was the pure “LeBron” peak, this legend at the pinnacle of his nasty. But ‘13 LeBron is the guy whose style would fit well on any team ever. I know it’s a been done to death, but if you could create “the greatest team ever” or a “team that plays the aliens” type thing, you would absolutely choose ‘13 LeBron over ‘09 LeBron. ‘13 LeBron with his size and skill gain, made up for his speed loss vs. ‘09 LeBron in most team contexts.

[TheGOATRises007]

At the time, ‘09 LeBron was the first guy to actually challenge MJ and getting people to think he had GOAT potential. Shaq in ‘00 had people using words like “dominant” instead of “best” because MJ was too recent and he was as a pure athletic specimen who lacked shooting skill aka “a bag” as they say these days. As legendary as Kobe was, one reason he got/gets so much love was because we just knew he was a worse version of MJ besides occasional red hot outside shooting. So he was never a real threat to the crown so people didn’t feel the need to be defensive about MJ with him.

LeBron the day after he hit that playoff game winner vs. Orlando is easily the closest anyone in the last 25 years has gotten to “MJ” status. The discussion was actually being had that this kid we knew from 16 might actually be the one to surpass MJ. Him doing it with a different style got him some crap but that’s the defensive thing that made it clear he was a real threat. Despite killing it that series, Orlando beating them with their ahead of the time build and a dominant Dwight really hurts the way the average sports fan thinks about that version of LeBron.

‘09 LeBron was LeBron at his most “LeBron”. He would’ve been a plus NBA athlete at 16 and remains one at 39. It is incredible what he is athletically. ‘09 was the peak. His size/speed/skill ratio didn’t make sense. The only guy in the convo with ‘09 LeBron as a one legged leaper was ABA Dr. J and LeBron had a significant size and skill advantage over him.

‘13 LeBron was more reserved and well rounded. His versatility was significantly greater than the ‘09 version. He tried to “fit in” instead of “be the man”, more off-ball cutting and shooting and less ball dominant play.

Whereas a guy like Luka ranks #1 in time of possession this year, LeBron ranked 33rd in TOP in ‘14 so I assume ‘13 was similar. In comparison, I’d assume easy Top 10 in ‘09 maybe Top 5.

Long story short. ‘09 was the pure “LeBron” peak, this legend at the pinnacle of his nasty. But ‘13 LeBron is the guy whose style would fit well on any team ever. I know it’s a been done to death, but if you could create “the greatest team ever” or a “team that plays the aliens” type thing, you would absolutely choose ‘13 LeBron over ‘09 LeBron. ‘13 LeBron with his size and skill gain, made up for his speed loss vs. ‘09 LeBron in most team contexts.

I don't necessarily disagree with this.

My OP was more-so for the LeBron supporters here who like using data to support their arguments(or make an argument entirely from the data), and there really doesn't seem to be a data driven case for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron.

That's why I'm always a bit confused when people opt for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron when those people like citing data a lot.

And I'm not criticizing that approach nor trying to come off in an antagonistic manner. I was genuinely curious why they pick 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron when then analytics for 2009 LeBron are simply greater.

I get the whole 'rings' narrative, but that's more-so a casual take.

[TheGOATRises007]

Can post more numbers about this later, but the crux of it boils down to:

• 09 being a more optimal situation, from an impact standpoint (contrary to others, I don’t see it as “outlier” at all and 2010 James before injury might just be better). In ‘13, much more of a situation to stagger impact was present
• different defenses faced in the Playoffs - and not having to go through three straight combos of an elite wing defender AND defensive anchor big (Noah/Jimmy , Roy/PG , Duncan/Kawhi & friends)
• 13 being a better RS, and the best of everything James has put together

I’ve seen great arguments put forward for 13 and 09 over time - same goes for 16 which is alongside. 2012 is a sneaky good shout too, when you consider context

I'm not sure 13 is a better RS than 09.

Pretty sure the data favors 09 clearly over 13.

[rk2023]

Can post more numbers about this later, but the crux of it boils down to:

• 09 being a more optimal situation, from an impact standpoint (contrary to others, I don’t see it as “outlier” at all and 2010 James before injury might just be better). In ‘13, much more of a situation to stagger impact was present
• different defenses faced in the Playoffs - and not having to go through three straight combos of an elite wing defender AND defensive anchor big (Noah/Jimmy , Roy/PG , Duncan/Kawhi & friends)
• 13 being a better RS, and the best of everything James has put together

I’ve seen great arguments put forward for 13 and 09 over time - same goes for 16 which is alongside. 2012 is a sneaky good shout too, when you consider context

I'm not sure 13 is a better RS than 09.

Pretty sure the data favors 09 clearly over 13.

Moreso production data (much more efficient scorer, and better playmaker imo); am aware that 09 > 13 from an impact standpoint - due to not sharing minutes and play-types with someone like Wade on the 09 Cavs.

[OhayoKD]

Can post more numbers about this later, but the crux of it boils down to:

• 09 being a more optimal situation, from an impact standpoint (contrary to others, I don’t see it as “outlier” at all and 2010 James before injury might just be better). In ‘13, much more of a situation to stagger impact was present
• different defenses faced in the Playoffs - and not having to go through three straight combos of an elite wing defender AND defensive anchor big (Noah/Jimmy , Roy/PG , Duncan/Kawhi & friends)
• 13 being a better RS, and the best of everything James has put together

I’ve seen great arguments put forward for 13 and 09 over time - same goes for 16 which is alongside. 2012 is a sneaky good shout too, when you consider context

I'm not sure 13 is a better RS than 09.

Pretty sure the data favors 09 clearly over 13.

Moreso production data (much more efficient scorer, and better playmaker imo); am aware that 09 > 13 from an impact standpoint - due to not sharing minutes and play-types with someone like Wade on the 09 Cavs.

Him being a better playmaker iyo does not mean he was a more productive one. 09 and 10 created far more while turning the ball over less. You can put that down to role, but you're mixing actual production with theoretical production. The former favors cleveland lebron by a margin, even if it's just a matter of oppurtunity.

Unless you are using cr7=messi logic, Lebron was far more productive in 2009/2010 over the course of the rs and arguably as if not more effecient(best turnover economy year ever probably)

[homecourtloss]

At the time, ‘09 LeBron was the first guy to actually challenge MJ and getting people to think he had GOAT potential. Shaq in ‘00 had people using words like “dominant” instead of “best” because MJ was too recent and he was as a pure athletic specimen who lacked shooting skill aka “a bag” as they say these days. As legendary as Kobe was, one reason he got/gets so much love was because we just knew he was a worse version of MJ besides occasional red hot outside shooting. So he was never a real threat to the crown so people didn’t feel the need to be defensive about MJ with him.

LeBron the day after he hit that playoff game winner vs. Orlando is easily the closest anyone in the last 25 years has gotten to “MJ” status. The discussion was actually being had that this kid we knew from 16 might actually be the one to surpass MJ. Him doing it with a different style got him some crap but that’s the defensive thing that made it clear he was a real threat. Despite killing it that series, Orlando beating them with their ahead of the time build and a dominant Dwight really hurts the way the average sports fan thinks about that version of LeBron.

‘09 LeBron was LeBron at his most “LeBron”. He would’ve been a plus NBA athlete at 16 and remains one at 39. It is incredible what he is athletically. ‘09 was the peak. His size/speed/skill ratio didn’t make sense. The only guy in the convo with ‘09 LeBron as a one legged leaper was ABA Dr. J and LeBron had a significant size and skill advantage over him.

‘13 LeBron was more reserved and well rounded. His versatility was significantly greater than the ‘09 version. He tried to “fit in” instead of “be the man”, more off-ball cutting and shooting and less ball dominant play.

Whereas a guy like Luka ranks #1 in time of possession this year, LeBron ranked 33rd in TOP in ‘14 so I assume ‘13 was similar. In comparison, I’d assume easy Top 10 in ‘09 maybe Top 5.

Long story short. ‘09 was the pure “LeBron” peak, this legend at the pinnacle of his nasty. But ‘13 LeBron is the guy whose style would fit well on any team ever. I know it’s a been done to death, but if you could create “the greatest team ever” or a “team that plays the aliens” type thing, you would absolutely choose ‘13 LeBron over ‘09 LeBron. ‘13 LeBron with his size and skill gain, made up for his speed loss vs. ‘09 LeBron in most team contexts.

I don't necessarily disagree with this.

My OP was more-so for the LeBron supporters here who like using data to support their arguments(or make an argument entirely from the data), and there really doesn't seem to be a data driven case for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron.

That's why I'm always a bit confused when people opt for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron when those people like citing data a lot.

And I'm not criticizing that approach nor trying to come off in an antagonistic manner. I was genuinely curious why they pick 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron when then analytics for 2009 LeBron are simply greater.

I get the whole 'rings' narrative, but that's more-so a casual take.

I think the argument one could make would be a subjective one that argues 2013 LeBron didn’t play with the same ferocity and all out hurricane force since he knew he had a better team, which affected how the 2013 Heat started games, i.e., more slowly, compared to the 2009 Cavs, who came storming out the gate at full force, which then affected net ratings and impact stats. This is common for teams that know what they are and confident in their ability to win. One could then make the argument that 2013 LeBron was a better, more refined player but didn’t play as ferociously. Obviously, this could then be argued to say, well, if he didn’t, and he didn’t have the same insane motor, then it’s not his peak, etc. Crazy hing was that Cavs team also had crazy 4th quarter clutch ratings,

1st quarter NRtgs per 100 possessions

2009 Cavs: +18.3 (+13.9 first half)
2013 Heat: +8.7 (+5.3 first half)

2016 Warriors: +19.8
2024 Celtics: +17.8
2017 Warriors: +14.4
1998 Bulls: +13.6
2008 Celtics: +12.8
2014 Spurs: +11.4
2016 Spurs: +11.3
1997 Bulls: +10.4
2000 Lakers: +9.9
2018 Warriors: +.5

Would 2013 LeBron have the same crazy impact stats if he played with the same ferocity knowing that his team without him could not do anything? Did he still have that same motor to do it for 40 minutes a gsm for the entire season? Out of many things, one of the most remarkable of the 2009 LeBron season was that it didn’t matter who was on court or who was off court as LeBron would dominate with whomever:

LeBron ON, West, Wallace, BigZ, Varejao OFF: +18.0
LeBron ON, Gibson, Szczerbiak, Pavlovic OFF: +15.7

with Vareajao OFF: +17.1
with BigZ OFF: +15.5
with Pavlovic OFF, +15.4
with West OFF:+14.2
with Gibson OFF: +13.8
with Mo OFF, +13.5
with Wallace OFF: +12.0

with BigZ and Varejao OFF, +18.2
with Varejao and Gibson OFF, +17.3
with Mo and West OFF, +13.0
with BigZ and Ben OFF, +12.0
with Ben and West OFF, +11.4
with Mo and Ben OFF, +10.6

I think the lowest that he had with any two players who played regular minutes off the court was +9, which is ludicrous, and I don’t think has ever been repeated. This is what full force, all out James provided, which if he did with the cast he had in 2013 (if he were actually capable to do it which is unknown), we might see even better numbers.

Lastly, how we see James in 2013 is dampened by the fact that Wade got hurt, the league was shifting and needing threes, and Wade was hurting the offense.

LeBron with Wade off the floor in the 2013 Playoffs:

• 33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
• 8.6 AST
• 8.6 REB
• 1.8 STL
• 1.2 BLK (0.9 at rim)
• Led a +17.73 rOrtg (would be #best all-time)

LeBron adjusted numbers w/o wade 12-14 playoffs:

•36.4 PTS
•8.5 TRB
•6.7 AST
•2.2 STL
•1 BLK

+7.6 rTS%
40% from 3
Led a +13.4 rORTG offense

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3

[Superjohnstarks]

At the time, ‘09 LeBron was the first guy to actually challenge MJ and getting people to think he had GOAT potential. Shaq in ‘00 had people using words like “dominant” instead of “best” because MJ was too recent and he was as a pure athletic specimen who lacked shooting skill aka “a bag” as they say these days. As legendary as Kobe was, one reason he got/gets so much love was because we just knew he was a worse version of MJ besides occasional red hot outside shooting. So he was never a real threat to the crown so people didn’t feel the need to be defensive about MJ with him.

LeBron the day after he hit that playoff game winner vs. Orlando is easily the closest anyone in the last 25 years has gotten to “MJ” status. The discussion was actually being had that this kid we knew from 16 might actually be the one to surpass MJ. Him doing it with a different style got him some crap but that’s the defensive thing that made it clear he was a real threat. Despite killing it that series, Orlando beating them with their ahead of the time build and a dominant Dwight really hurts the way the average sports fan thinks about that version of LeBron.

‘09 LeBron was LeBron at his most “LeBron”. He would’ve been a plus NBA athlete at 16 and remains one at 39. It is incredible what he is athletically. ‘09 was the peak. His size/speed/skill ratio didn’t make sense. The only guy in the convo with ‘09 LeBron as a one legged leaper was ABA Dr. J and LeBron had a significant size and skill advantage over him.

‘13 LeBron was more reserved and well rounded. His versatility was significantly greater than the ‘09 version. He tried to “fit in” instead of “be the man”, more off-ball cutting and shooting and less ball dominant play.

Whereas a guy like Luka ranks #1 in time of possession this year, LeBron ranked 33rd in TOP in ‘14 so I assume ‘13 was similar. In comparison, I’d assume easy Top 10 in ‘09 maybe Top 5.

Long story short. ‘09 was the pure “LeBron” peak, this legend at the pinnacle of his nasty. But ‘13 LeBron is the guy whose style would fit well on any team ever. I know it’s a been done to death, but if you could create “the greatest team ever” or a “team that plays the aliens” type thing, you would absolutely choose ‘13 LeBron over ‘09 LeBron. ‘13 LeBron with his size and skill gain, made up for his speed loss vs. ‘09 LeBron in most team contexts.

I don't necessarily disagree with this.

My OP was more-so for the LeBron supporters here who like using data to support their arguments(or make an argument entirely from the data), and there really doesn't seem to be a data driven case for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron.

That's why I'm always a bit confused when people opt for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron when those people like citing data a lot.

And I'm not criticizing that approach nor trying to come off in an antagonistic manner. I was genuinely curious why they pick 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron when then analytics for 2009 LeBron are simply greater.

I get the whole 'rings' narrative, but that's more-so a casual take.

I think the argument one could make would be a subjective one that argues 2013 LeBron didn’t play with the same ferocity and all out hurricane force since he knew he had a better team, which affected how the 2013 Heat started games, i.e., more slowly, compared to the 2009 Cavs, who came storming out the gate at full force, which then affected net ratings and impact stats. This is common for teams that know what they are and confident in their ability to win. One could then make the argument that 2013 LeBron was a better, more refined player but didn’t play as ferociously. Obviously, this could then be argued to say, well, if he didn’t, and he didn’t have the same insane motor, then it’s not his peak, etc. Crazy hing was that Cavs team also had crazy 4th quarter clutch ratings,

1st quarter NRtgs per 100 possessions

2009 Cavs: +18.3 (+13.9 first half)
2013 Heat: +8.7 (+5.3 first half)

2016 Warriors: +19.8
2024 Celtics: +17.8
2017 Warriors: +14.4
1998 Bulls: +13.6
2008 Celtics: +12.8
2014 Spurs: +11.4
2016 Spurs: +11.3
1997 Bulls: +10.4
2000 Lakers: +9.9
2018 Warriors: +.5

Would 2013 LeBron have the same crazy impact stats if he played with the same ferocity knowing that his team without him could not do anything? Did he still have that same motor to do it for 40 minutes a gsm for the entire season? Out of many things, one of the most remarkable of the 2009 LeBron season was that it didn’t matter who was on court or who was off court as LeBron would dominate with whomever:

LeBron ON, West, Wallace, BigZ, Varejao OFF: +18.0
LeBron ON, Gibson, Szczerbiak, Pavlovic OFF: +15.7

with Vareajao OFF: +17.1
with BigZ OFF: +15.5
with Pavlovic OFF, +15.4
with West OFF:+14.2
with Gibson OFF: +13.8
with Mo OFF, +13.5
with Wallace OFF: +12.0

with BigZ and Varejao OFF, +18.2
with Varejao and Gibson OFF, +17.3
with Mo and West OFF, +13.0
with BigZ and Ben OFF, +12.0
with Ben and West OFF, +11.4
with Mo and Ben OFF, +10.6

I think the lowest that he had with any two players who played regular minutes off the court was +9, which is ludicrous, and I don’t think has ever been repeated. This is what full force, all out James provided, which if he did with the cast he had in 2013 (if he were actually capable to do it which is unknown), we might see even better numbers.

Lastly, how we see James in 2013 is dampened by the fact that Wade got hurt, the league was shifting and needing threes, and Wade was hurting the offense.

LeBron with Wade off the floor in the 2013 Playoffs:

• 33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
• 8.6 AST
• 8.6 REB
• 1.8 STL
• 1.2 BLK (0.9 at rim)
• Led a +17.73 rOrtg (would be #best all-time)

LeBron adjusted numbers w/o wade 12-14 playoffs:

•36.4 PTS
•8.5 TRB
•6.7 AST
•2.2 STL
•1 BLK

+7.6 rTS%
40% from 3
Led a +13.4 rORTG offense

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3

The wade off numbers are bonkers especially against San Antonio, goat james.

[Djoker]

At the time, ‘09 LeBron was the first guy to actually challenge MJ and getting people to think he had GOAT potential. Shaq in ‘00 had people using words like “dominant” instead of “best” because MJ was too recent and he was as a pure athletic specimen who lacked shooting skill aka “a bag” as they say these days. As legendary as Kobe was, one reason he got/gets so much love was because we just knew he was a worse version of MJ besides occasional red hot outside shooting. So he was never a real threat to the crown so people didn’t feel the need to be defensive about MJ with him.

LeBron the day after he hit that playoff game winner vs. Orlando is easily the closest anyone in the last 25 years has gotten to “MJ” status. The discussion was actually being had that this kid we knew from 16 might actually be the one to surpass MJ. Him doing it with a different style got him some crap but that’s the defensive thing that made it clear he was a real threat. Despite killing it that series, Orlando beating them with their ahead of the time build and a dominant Dwight really hurts the way the average sports fan thinks about that version of LeBron.

‘09 LeBron was LeBron at his most “LeBron”. He would’ve been a plus NBA athlete at 16 and remains one at 39. It is incredible what he is athletically. ‘09 was the peak. His size/speed/skill ratio didn’t make sense. The only guy in the convo with ‘09 LeBron as a one legged leaper was ABA Dr. J and LeBron had a significant size and skill advantage over him.

‘13 LeBron was more reserved and well rounded. His versatility was significantly greater than the ‘09 version. He tried to “fit in” instead of “be the man”, more off-ball cutting and shooting and less ball dominant play.

Whereas a guy like Luka ranks #1 in time of possession this year, LeBron ranked 33rd in TOP in ‘14 so I assume ‘13 was similar. In comparison, I’d assume easy Top 10 in ‘09 maybe Top 5.

Long story short. ‘09 was the pure “LeBron” peak, this legend at the pinnacle of his nasty. But ‘13 LeBron is the guy whose style would fit well on any team ever. I know it’s a been done to death, but if you could create “the greatest team ever” or a “team that plays the aliens” type thing, you would absolutely choose ‘13 LeBron over ‘09 LeBron. ‘13 LeBron with his size and skill gain, made up for his speed loss vs. ‘09 LeBron in most team contexts.

I don't necessarily disagree with this.

My OP was more-so for the LeBron supporters here who like using data to support their arguments(or make an argument entirely from the data), and there really doesn't seem to be a data driven case for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron.

That's why I'm always a bit confused when people opt for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron when those people like citing data a lot.

And I'm not criticizing that approach nor trying to come off in an antagonistic manner. I was genuinely curious why they pick 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron when then analytics for 2009 LeBron are simply greater.

I get the whole 'rings' narrative, but that's more-so a casual take.

I think the argument one could make would be a subjective one that argues 2013 LeBron didn’t play with the same ferocity and all out hurricane force since he knew he had a better team, which affected how the 2013 Heat started games, i.e., more slowly, compared to the 2009 Cavs, who came storming out the gate at full force, which then affected net ratings and impact stats. This is common for teams that know what they are and confident in their ability to win. One could then make the argument that 2013 LeBron was a better, more refined player but didn’t play as ferociously. Obviously, this could then be argued to say, well, if he didn’t, and he didn’t have the same insane motor, then it’s not his peak, etc. Crazy hing was that Cavs team also had crazy 4th quarter clutch ratings,

1st quarter NRtgs per 100 possessions

2009 Cavs: +18.3 (+13.9 first half)
2013 Heat: +8.7 (+5.3 first half)

2016 Warriors: +19.8
2024 Celtics: +17.8
2017 Warriors: +14.4
1998 Bulls: +13.6
2008 Celtics: +12.8
2014 Spurs: +11.4
2016 Spurs: +11.3
1997 Bulls: +10.4
2000 Lakers: +9.9
2018 Warriors: +.5

Would 2013 LeBron have the same crazy impact stats if he played with the same ferocity knowing that his team without him could not do anything? Did he still have that same motor to do it for 40 minutes a gsm for the entire season? Out of many things, one of the most remarkable of the 2009 LeBron season was that it didn’t matter who was on court or who was off court as LeBron would dominate with whomever:

LeBron ON, West, Wallace, BigZ, Varejao OFF: +18.0
LeBron ON, Gibson, Szczerbiak, Pavlovic OFF: +15.7

with Vareajao OFF: +17.1
with BigZ OFF: +15.5
with Pavlovic OFF, +15.4
with West OFF:+14.2
with Gibson OFF: +13.8
with Mo OFF, +13.5
with Wallace OFF: +12.0

with BigZ and Varejao OFF, +18.2
with Varejao and Gibson OFF, +17.3
with Mo and West OFF, +13.0
with BigZ and Ben OFF, +12.0
with Ben and West OFF, +11.4
with Mo and Ben OFF, +10.6

I think the lowest that he had with any two players who played regular minutes off the court was +9, which is ludicrous, and I don’t think has ever been repeated. This is what full force, all out James provided, which if he did with the cast he had in 2013 (if he were actually capable to do it which is unknown), we might see even better numbers.

Lastly, how we see James in 2013 is dampened by the fact that Wade got hurt, the league was shifting and needing threes, and Wade was hurting the offense.

LeBron with Wade off the floor in the 2013 Playoffs:

• 33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
• 8.6 AST
• 8.6 REB
• 1.8 STL
• 1.2 BLK (0.9 at rim)
• Led a +17.73 rOrtg (would be #best all-time)

LeBron adjusted numbers w/o wade 12-14 playoffs:

•36.4 PTS
•8.5 TRB
•6.7 AST
•2.2 STL
•1 BLK

+7.6 rTS%
40% from 3
Led a +13.4 rORTG offense

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3

Lebron played most of the minutes in the 2013 postseason with Wade and based on all conventional wisdom he needed Wade to win that championship. Therefore the team not playing that well with Lebron and Wade both on the court isn't actually a good thing to see. Even though I'm firmly in the 2013 > 2009 camp.

Besides, when looking at team performance, it's helpful to look at Net Rating not just ORtg because teams can sacrifice defense for offense and vice versa with different lineups.

2013 Playoffs
Lebron ON Wade ON: +0.7 NetRtg – 678 min
Lebron ON Wade OFF: +23.7 NetRtg – 282 min
Lebron OFF Wade ON: +19.7 NetRtg – 104 min
Lebron OFF Wade OFF: -22.2 NetRtg – 49 min

Source: PBP Stats

When either Lebron or Wade sat, the team played extremely well. And both Lebron and Wade saw their numbers increase sharply when the other sat. Albeit these are extremely small samples with probably a lot of garbage time in OFF minutes to make that much of it. The Lebron ON Wade ON sample is worrying though and raises portability issues which are generally prevalent with just about any version of Lebron.

[Superjohnstarks]

I don't necessarily disagree with this.

My OP was more-so for the LeBron supporters here who like using data to support their arguments(or make an argument entirely from the data), and there really doesn't seem to be a data driven case for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron.

That's why I'm always a bit confused when people opt for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron when those people like citing data a lot.

And I'm not criticizing that approach nor trying to come off in an antagonistic manner. I was genuinely curious why they pick 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron when then analytics for 2009 LeBron are simply greater.

I get the whole 'rings' narrative, but that's more-so a casual take.

I think the argument one could make would be a subjective one that argues 2013 LeBron didn’t play with the same ferocity and all out hurricane force since he knew he had a better team, which affected how the 2013 Heat started games, i.e., more slowly, compared to the 2009 Cavs, who came storming out the gate at full force, which then affected net ratings and impact stats. This is common for teams that know what they are and confident in their ability to win. One could then make the argument that 2013 LeBron was a better, more refined player but didn’t play as ferociously. Obviously, this could then be argued to say, well, if he didn’t, and he didn’t have the same insane motor, then it’s not his peak, etc. Crazy hing was that Cavs team also had crazy 4th quarter clutch ratings,

1st quarter NRtgs per 100 possessions

2009 Cavs: +18.3 (+13.9 first half)
2013 Heat: +8.7 (+5.3 first half)

2016 Warriors: +19.8
2024 Celtics: +17.8
2017 Warriors: +14.4
1998 Bulls: +13.6
2008 Celtics: +12.8
2014 Spurs: +11.4
2016 Spurs: +11.3
1997 Bulls: +10.4
2000 Lakers: +9.9
2018 Warriors: +.5

Would 2013 LeBron have the same crazy impact stats if he played with the same ferocity knowing that his team without him could not do anything? Did he still have that same motor to do it for 40 minutes a gsm for the entire season? Out of many things, one of the most remarkable of the 2009 LeBron season was that it didn’t matter who was on court or who was off court as LeBron would dominate with whomever:

LeBron ON, West, Wallace, BigZ, Varejao OFF: +18.0
LeBron ON, Gibson, Szczerbiak, Pavlovic OFF: +15.7

with Vareajao OFF: +17.1
with BigZ OFF: +15.5
with Pavlovic OFF, +15.4
with West OFF:+14.2
with Gibson OFF: +13.8
with Mo OFF, +13.5
with Wallace OFF: +12.0

with BigZ and Varejao OFF, +18.2
with Varejao and Gibson OFF, +17.3
with Mo and West OFF, +13.0
with BigZ and Ben OFF, +12.0
with Ben and West OFF, +11.4
with Mo and Ben OFF, +10.6

I think the lowest that he had with any two players who played regular minutes off the court was +9, which is ludicrous, and I don’t think has ever been repeated. This is what full force, all out James provided, which if he did with the cast he had in 2013 (if he were actually capable to do it which is unknown), we might see even better numbers.

Lastly, how we see James in 2013 is dampened by the fact that Wade got hurt, the league was shifting and needing threes, and Wade was hurting the offense.

LeBron with Wade off the floor in the 2013 Playoffs:

• 33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
• 8.6 AST
• 8.6 REB
• 1.8 STL
• 1.2 BLK (0.9 at rim)
• Led a +17.73 rOrtg (would be #best all-time)

LeBron adjusted numbers w/o wade 12-14 playoffs:

•36.4 PTS
•8.5 TRB
•6.7 AST
•2.2 STL
•1 BLK

+7.6 rTS%
40% from 3
Led a +13.4 rORTG offense

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3

Lebron played most of the minutes in the 2013 postseason with Wade and based on all conventional wisdom he needed Wade to win that championship. Therefore the team not playing that well with Lebron and Wade both on the court isn't actually a good thing to see. Even though I'm firmly in the 2013 > 2009 camp.

Besides, when looking at team performance, it's helpful to look at Net Rating not just ORtg because teams can sacrifice defense for offense and vice versa with different lineups.

2013 Playoffs
Lebron ON Wade ON: +0.7 NetRtg – 678 min
Lebron ON Wade OFF: +23.7 NetRtg – 282 min
Lebron OFF Wade ON: +19.7 NetRtg – 104 min
Lebron OFF Wade OFF: -22.2 NetRtg – 49 min

Source: PBP Stats

When either Lebron or Wade sat, the team played extremely well. And both Lebron and Wade saw their numbers increase sharply when the other sat. Albeit these are extremely small samples with probably a lot of garbage time in OFF minutes to make that much of it. The Lebron ON Wade ON sample is worrying though and raises portability issues which are generally prevalent with just about any version of Lebron.

2013 Heat had a +17 net rating without wade in the Playoffs yh sure he was main factor despite his awful play and lack of outside shooting from 10ft and above

[homecourtloss]

I don't necessarily disagree with this.

My OP was more-so for the LeBron supporters here who like using data to support their arguments(or make an argument entirely from the data), and there really doesn't seem to be a data driven case for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron.

That's why I'm always a bit confused when people opt for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron when those people like citing data a lot.

And I'm not criticizing that approach nor trying to come off in an antagonistic manner. I was genuinely curious why they pick 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron when then analytics for 2009 LeBron are simply greater.

I get the whole 'rings' narrative, but that's more-so a casual take.

I think the argument one could make would be a subjective one that argues 2013 LeBron didn’t play with the same ferocity and all out hurricane force since he knew he had a better team, which affected how the 2013 Heat started games, i.e., more slowly, compared to the 2009 Cavs, who came storming out the gate at full force, which then affected net ratings and impact stats. This is common for teams that know what they are and confident in their ability to win. One could then make the argument that 2013 LeBron was a better, more refined player but didn’t play as ferociously. Obviously, this could then be argued to say, well, if he didn’t, and he didn’t have the same insane motor, then it’s not his peak, etc. Crazy hing was that Cavs team also had crazy 4th quarter clutch ratings,

1st quarter NRtgs per 100 possessions

2009 Cavs: +18.3 (+13.9 first half)
2013 Heat: +8.7 (+5.3 first half)

2016 Warriors: +19.8
2024 Celtics: +17.8
2017 Warriors: +14.4
1998 Bulls: +13.6
2008 Celtics: +12.8
2014 Spurs: +11.4
2016 Spurs: +11.3
1997 Bulls: +10.4
2000 Lakers: +9.9
2018 Warriors: +.5

Would 2013 LeBron have the same crazy impact stats if he played with the same ferocity knowing that his team without him could not do anything? Did he still have that same motor to do it for 40 minutes a gsm for the entire season? Out of many things, one of the most remarkable of the 2009 LeBron season was that it didn’t matter who was on court or who was off court as LeBron would dominate with whomever:

LeBron ON, West, Wallace, BigZ, Varejao OFF: +18.0
LeBron ON, Gibson, Szczerbiak, Pavlovic OFF: +15.7

with Vareajao OFF: +17.1
with BigZ OFF: +15.5
with Pavlovic OFF, +15.4
with West OFF:+14.2
with Gibson OFF: +13.8
with Mo OFF, +13.5
with Wallace OFF: +12.0

with BigZ and Varejao OFF, +18.2
with Varejao and Gibson OFF, +17.3
with Mo and West OFF, +13.0
with BigZ and Ben OFF, +12.0
with Ben and West OFF, +11.4
with Mo and Ben OFF, +10.6

I think the lowest that he had with any two players who played regular minutes off the court was +9, which is ludicrous, and I don’t think has ever been repeated. This is what full force, all out James provided, which if he did with the cast he had in 2013 (if he were actually capable to do it which is unknown), we might see even better numbers.

Lastly, how we see James in 2013 is dampened by the fact that Wade got hurt, the league was shifting and needing threes, and Wade was hurting the offense.

LeBron with Wade off the floor in the 2013 Playoffs:

• 33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
• 8.6 AST
• 8.6 REB
• 1.8 STL
• 1.2 BLK (0.9 at rim)
• Led a +17.73 rOrtg (would be #best all-time)

LeBron adjusted numbers w/o wade 12-14 playoffs:

•36.4 PTS
•8.5 TRB
•6.7 AST
•2.2 STL
•1 BLK

+7.6 rTS%
40% from 3
Led a +13.4 rORTG offense

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3

Lebron played most of the minutes in the 2013 postseason with Wade and based on all conventional wisdom he needed Wade to win that championship. Therefore the team not playing that well with Lebron and Wade both on the court isn't actually a good thing to see. Even though I'm firmly in the 2013 > 2009 camp.

Besides, when looking at team performance, it's helpful to look at Net Rating not just ORtg because teams can sacrifice defense for offense and vice versa with different lineups.

2013 Playoffs
Lebron ON Wade ON: +0.7 NetRtg – 678 min
Lebron ON Wade OFF: +23.7 NetRtg – 282 min
Lebron OFF Wade ON: +19.7 NetRtg – 104 min
Lebron OFF Wade OFF: -22.2 NetRtg – 49 min

Source: PBP Stats

When either Lebron or Wade sat, the team played extremely well. And both Lebron and Wade saw their numbers increase sharply when the other sat. Albeit these are extremely small samples with probably a lot of garbage time in OFF minutes to make that much of it. The Lebron ON Wade ON sample is worrying though and raises portability issues which are generally prevalent with just about any version of Lebron.

Against the Spurs, the Heat won the series when LeBron played without Wade.

James played 301 minutes in the Finals

230 minutes with Wade: -12.4 per 100 possessions; how the Heat didn’t lose the Finals looking at this number is a miracle.

LeBron’s 71 minutes without Wade: +37.7 per 100 possessions.

Heat with Wade off court in 2013 Finals: +28.8

Source: NBA.com

[OhayoKD]

I think the argument one could make would be a subjective one that argues 2013 LeBron didn’t play with the same ferocity and all out hurricane force since he knew he had a better team, which affected how the 2013 Heat started games, i.e., more slowly, compared to the 2009 Cavs, who came storming out the gate at full force, which then affected net ratings and impact stats. This is common for teams that know what they are and confident in their ability to win. One could then make the argument that 2013 LeBron was a better, more refined player but didn’t play as ferociously. Obviously, this could then be argued to say, well, if he didn’t, and he didn’t have the same insane motor, then it’s not his peak, etc. Crazy hing was that Cavs team also had crazy 4th quarter clutch ratings,

1st quarter NRtgs per 100 possessions

2009 Cavs: +18.3 (+13.9 first half)
2013 Heat: +8.7 (+5.3 first half)

2016 Warriors: +19.8
2024 Celtics: +17.8
2017 Warriors: +14.4
1998 Bulls: +13.6
2008 Celtics: +12.8
2014 Spurs: +11.4
2016 Spurs: +11.3
1997 Bulls: +10.4
2000 Lakers: +9.9
2018 Warriors: +.5

Would 2013 LeBron have the same crazy impact stats if he played with the same ferocity knowing that his team without him could not do anything? Did he still have that same motor to do it for 40 minutes a gsm for the entire season? Out of many things, one of the most remarkable of the 2009 LeBron season was that it didn’t matter who was on court or who was off court as LeBron would dominate with whomever:

LeBron ON, West, Wallace, BigZ, Varejao OFF: +18.0
LeBron ON, Gibson, Szczerbiak, Pavlovic OFF: +15.7

with Vareajao OFF: +17.1
with BigZ OFF: +15.5
with Pavlovic OFF, +15.4
with West OFF:+14.2
with Gibson OFF: +13.8
with Mo OFF, +13.5
with Wallace OFF: +12.0

with BigZ and Varejao OFF, +18.2
with Varejao and Gibson OFF, +17.3
with Mo and West OFF, +13.0
with BigZ and Ben OFF, +12.0
with Ben and West OFF, +11.4
with Mo and Ben OFF, +10.6

I think the lowest that he had with any two players who played regular minutes off the court was +9, which is ludicrous, and I don’t think has ever been repeated. This is what full force, all out James provided, which if he did with the cast he had in 2013 (if he were actually capable to do it which is unknown), we might see even better numbers.

Lastly, how we see James in 2013 is dampened by the fact that Wade got hurt, the league was shifting and needing threes, and Wade was hurting the offense.

LeBron with Wade off the floor in the 2013 Playoffs:

• 33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
• 8.6 AST
• 8.6 REB
• 1.8 STL
• 1.2 BLK (0.9 at rim)
• Led a +17.73 rOrtg (would be #best all-time)

LeBron adjusted numbers w/o wade 12-14 playoffs:

•36.4 PTS
•8.5 TRB
•6.7 AST
•2.2 STL
•1 BLK

+7.6 rTS%
40% from 3
Led a +13.4 rORTG offense

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3

Lebron played most of the minutes in the 2013 postseason with Wade and based on all conventional wisdom he needed Wade to win that championship. Therefore the team not playing that well with Lebron and Wade both on the court isn't actually a good thing to see. Even though I'm firmly in the 2013 > 2009 camp.

Besides, when looking at team performance, it's helpful to look at Net Rating not just ORtg because teams can sacrifice defense for offense and vice versa with different lineups.

2013 Playoffs
Lebron ON Wade ON: +0.7 NetRtg – 678 min
Lebron ON Wade OFF: +23.7 NetRtg – 282 min
Lebron OFF Wade ON: +19.7 NetRtg – 104 min
Lebron OFF Wade OFF: -22.2 NetRtg – 49 min

Source: PBP Stats

When either Lebron or Wade sat, the team played extremely well. And both Lebron and Wade saw their numbers increase sharply when the other sat. Albeit these are extremely small samples with probably a lot of garbage time in OFF minutes to make that much of it. The Lebron ON Wade ON sample is worrying though and raises portability issues which are generally prevalent with just about any version of Lebron.

Against the Spurs, the Heat won the series when LeBron played without Wade.

James played 301 minutes in the Finals

230 minutes with Wade: -12.4 per 100 possessions; how the Heat didn’t lose the Finals looking at this number is a miracle.

LeBron’s 71 minutes without Wade: +37.7 per 100 possessions.

Heat with Wade off court in 2013 Finals: +28.8

Source: NBA.com

Why are we using tiny ass on/off samples to pretend Wade was a negative

[capfan33]

I don't necessarily disagree with this.

My OP was more-so for the LeBron supporters here who like using data to support their arguments(or make an argument entirely from the data), and there really doesn't seem to be a data driven case for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron.

That's why I'm always a bit confused when people opt for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron when those people like citing data a lot.

And I'm not criticizing that approach nor trying to come off in an antagonistic manner. I was genuinely curious why they pick 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron when then analytics for 2009 LeBron are simply greater.

I get the whole 'rings' narrative, but that's more-so a casual take.

I think the argument one could make would be a subjective one that argues 2013 LeBron didn’t play with the same ferocity and all out hurricane force since he knew he had a better team, which affected how the 2013 Heat started games, i.e., more slowly, compared to the 2009 Cavs, who came storming out the gate at full force, which then affected net ratings and impact stats. This is common for teams that know what they are and confident in their ability to win. One could then make the argument that 2013 LeBron was a better, more refined player but didn’t play as ferociously. Obviously, this could then be argued to say, well, if he didn’t, and he didn’t have the same insane motor, then it’s not his peak, etc. Crazy hing was that Cavs team also had crazy 4th quarter clutch ratings,

1st quarter NRtgs per 100 possessions

2009 Cavs: +18.3 (+13.9 first half)
2013 Heat: +8.7 (+5.3 first half)

2016 Warriors: +19.8
2024 Celtics: +17.8
2017 Warriors: +14.4
1998 Bulls: +13.6
2008 Celtics: +12.8
2014 Spurs: +11.4
2016 Spurs: +11.3
1997 Bulls: +10.4
2000 Lakers: +9.9
2018 Warriors: +.5

Would 2013 LeBron have the same crazy impact stats if he played with the same ferocity knowing that his team without him could not do anything? Did he still have that same motor to do it for 40 minutes a gsm for the entire season? Out of many things, one of the most remarkable of the 2009 LeBron season was that it didn’t matter who was on court or who was off court as LeBron would dominate with whomever:

LeBron ON, West, Wallace, BigZ, Varejao OFF: +18.0
LeBron ON, Gibson, Szczerbiak, Pavlovic OFF: +15.7

with Vareajao OFF: +17.1
with BigZ OFF: +15.5
with Pavlovic OFF, +15.4
with West OFF:+14.2
with Gibson OFF: +13.8
with Mo OFF, +13.5
with Wallace OFF: +12.0

with BigZ and Varejao OFF, +18.2
with Varejao and Gibson OFF, +17.3
with Mo and West OFF, +13.0
with BigZ and Ben OFF, +12.0
with Ben and West OFF, +11.4
with Mo and Ben OFF, +10.6

I think the lowest that he had with any two players who played regular minutes off the court was +9, which is ludicrous, and I don’t think has ever been repeated. This is what full force, all out James provided, which if he did with the cast he had in 2013 (if he were actually capable to do it which is unknown), we might see even better numbers.

Lastly, how we see James in 2013 is dampened by the fact that Wade got hurt, the league was shifting and needing threes, and Wade was hurting the offense.

LeBron with Wade off the floor in the 2013 Playoffs:

• 33.8 IA PTS/75 on +7.8 rTS%
• 8.6 AST
• 8.6 REB
• 1.8 STL
• 1.2 BLK (0.9 at rim)
• Led a +17.73 rOrtg (would be #best all-time)

LeBron adjusted numbers w/o wade 12-14 playoffs:

•36.4 PTS
•8.5 TRB
•6.7 AST
•2.2 STL
•1 BLK

+7.6 rTS%
40% from 3
Led a +13.4 rORTG offense

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3

Lebron played most of the minutes in the 2013 postseason with Wade and based on all conventional wisdom he needed Wade to win that championship. Therefore the team not playing that well with Lebron and Wade both on the court isn't actually a good thing to see. Even though I'm firmly in the 2013 > 2009 camp.

Besides, when looking at team performance, it's helpful to look at Net Rating not just ORtg because teams can sacrifice defense for offense and vice versa with different lineups.

2013 Playoffs
Lebron ON Wade ON: +0.7 NetRtg – 678 min
Lebron ON Wade OFF: +23.7 NetRtg – 282 min
Lebron OFF Wade ON: +19.7 NetRtg – 104 min
Lebron OFF Wade OFF: -22.2 NetRtg – 49 min

Source: PBP Stats

When either Lebron or Wade sat, the team played extremely well. And both Lebron and Wade saw their numbers increase sharply when the other sat. Albeit these are extremely small samples with probably a lot of garbage time in OFF minutes to make that much of it. The Lebron ON Wade ON sample is worrying though and raises portability issues which are generally prevalent with just about any version of Lebron.

Lebron/Wades on/off were just fine until the 2013 playoffs, including the 2013 regular season, so bringing up portability is a bit odd.

[AEnigma]

^ Agree, it is not remotely honest, although I think the suggestion that the Heat would have cruised to a title without Wade is, well, technically unprovable but generally implausible and misguided. What those numbers signify to me is more about reemphasisong how the drop-off from the regular season created an obstacle to be overcome. It was visible in his play, and it was visible in the boxscore, and unsurprisingly, it was visible in the lineup data too. Regular season Wade was one of the better guards in the league, but playoff Wade only looked like that part of the time, while other times he was just a clunky starter more akin to Eric Bledsoe.

[Djoker]

Lebron/Wades on/off were just fine until the 2013 playoffs, including the 2013 regular season, so bringing up portability is a bit odd.

Regular season is a different story but...

Lebron ON Wade ON lineups were consistently subpar in the playoffs. +4.6 Net average over the four postseasons from 2011-2014 which is heavily buoyed by the +13.3 Net in 2012. The other three years were very frankly quite poor for the superstar duo hovering around 0-2 Net.

[lessthanjake]

I just want to emphasize again that talking about net ratings or on-off in tiny playoff samples is not very useful. A 282-minute sample (the LeBron on, Wade off 2013 playoff sample) means very little, for instance. Same with an 104-minute sample (the LeBron off, Wade on 2013 playoff sample). And I see reference to even smaller samples than these—which really aren’t useful at all. Even a 678-minute sample (the LeBron on, Wade on 2013 playoff sample) doesn’t mean much IMO. When we start talking about the 2,754 minute playoff sample with both LeBron and Wade on from 2011-2014, we are getting into a zone where we can perhaps draw meaningful conclusions from the data (though even that’s still just similar to the size of the “on” for a single regular season).

I want to reiterate again what I think is a central conundrum in evaluating NBA players, particularly in individual seasons (which this thread is inherently about). In a vacuum, impact data is better than box score data, because impact data theoretically reflects everything, while box score data does not. Meanwhile, in a vacuum, playoff data is better than regular season data, since the playoffs are what matters most. But, at the same time, playoff impact data is too low of a sample size to be useful. There’s no data that doesn’t have at least one of the above-described weaknesses. So we are always left having to accept at least one of the weaknesses. Personally, I think the playoff impact data sample-size issue is such a huge issue (particularly in single-year data) that’s that’s not the weakness we should be okay with relying on data with.

Anyways, it’s not something that needs to directly bear on this thread, since I think 2009 LeBron looks better than 2013 LeBron in all data (regardless of which type of flawed data we’re going with), and the discussion basically comes down to whether we think that that’s a result of external factors and that a more holistic skill-set-based analysis nevertheless puts 2013 LeBron ahead. But the above still seemed worth mentioning again, since the discussion seems to have again veered into emphasis of some really low-sample-size data.

[VanWest82]

I'm sure this has been said already (and was immediately dismissed), but 09 Lebron was a flawed player and 13 wasn't even though Bron wasn't quite the same athlete anymore in 13. He lost in 07, 08, 10, and 11 for essentially the same reasons: his jumper wasn't good enough, his post game wasn't good enough, and as a result he didn't have a good enough answer for a zone / flooding the strong side combined with good transition defense. Edit: obviously there are other reasons his teams lost, but in terms of his own culpability...

Lebron has talked at length about how he used the lockout to really work on these weak aspects of his game, and has openly credited Dwane Casey for being the guy who finally convinced him he needed to change.

Anyone arguing 09 is basically ignoring this context or overly focusing on his regular season success followed by an unsustainable post season shooting hot streak against teams that didn't execute the kind of schemes that gave him so much trouble in the surrounding playoff exits/failures. You're basically saying Lebron doesn't know what he's talking about but I do. Let's trust Lebron here.