All Primes: 2017 Warriors vs 2013 Heat

[PistolPeteJR]

This doesn't really make sense. "Prime 2017 Warriors" is basically just the 2017 Warriors with a prime David West and Varejao. 90% of the team is the same.

Compare that to the Heat in which no one outside of Lebron or Chalmers was in their prime and it's a wash. The Prime 2013 Heat would take this easily imo. Am very surprised by the poll results.

Andre Iguodala, Kevon Looney, and Matt Barnes as well.

For me an "all-prime" 2013 Heat are a significant departure from what they were in reality while the same version of the 2017 Warriors is the same team, just with better players. Much more difficult to project the Heat while the Warriors are quite easy... greatest team ever just upgraded. Plus I think the style of basketball the Warriors played was just superior to the Heat that it would take a lot to make that up, maybe more than just upgrading the quality of the players.

2013 Heat defensively would be an absolute juggernaut. DPOY LeBron anchoring alongside prime Wade, Allen, Lewis and Bosh, and you've got Battier coming off the bench who defensively was tremendous too? In terms of bigs, the Warriors' bigs even in their primes are nothing to be concerned about as far as the Heat are concerned. Prime Haslem, Bosh, Birdman will be fine as a rotation with LeBron also helping out there too.

How are the Warriors stopping LeBron? They're not obviously. Limiting him? Probably not much, but even then, who's defending prime Wade? Prime Allen? Prime Lewis with his 6'10" frame while being a lethal 3PT shooter? Heck, prime Miller off the bench?

If the argument is that the Heat's synergy wouldn't be as great as the Warriors' on offense, on defense I think the Heat clearly have their number, increasing transition opportunities. Prime LeBron + Wade + Allen in transition is just completely unbeatable.

[McBubbles]

This doesn't really make sense. "Prime 2017 Warriors" is basically just the 2017 Warriors with a prime David West and Varejao. 90% of the team is the same.

Compare that to the Heat in which no one outside of Lebron or Chalmers was in their prime and it's a wash. The Prime 2013 Heat would take this easily imo. Am very surprised by the poll results.

Andre Iguodala, Kevon Looney, and Matt Barnes as well.

For me an "all-prime" 2013 Heat are a significant departure from what they were in reality while the same version of the 2017 Warriors is the same team, just with better players. Much more difficult to project the Heat while the Warriors are quite easy... greatest team ever just upgraded. Plus I think the style of basketball the Warriors played was just superior to the Heat that it would take a lot to make that up, maybe more than just upgrading the quality of the players.

Prime Iggy is Warriors Iggy anyway. He even had the most efficient season of his Warrior's tenure in 2017. Matt Barnes and Kevin Looney aren't talented enough players for prime Vs slightly out of prime to make any notable difference.

And I don't see why being a significant departure from their regular selves is important when they're exponentially more talented than both their previous selves and the Warriors. It's just Prime 2013 Heat + shooters, which in real life, not hypothetically, were the best lineups the 2013 Heat had come playoff time. Lebron + ATG shooters is a time tested GOAT offence level formula. Him, Allen and Rashard Lewis would be disgusting, and think of all the space that'd give a prime Wade too? Nah, 2013 Heat take this.

+ Prime Shane Battier might be the best perimeter defender in NBA history.

[Dr Positivity]

This doesn't really make sense. "Prime 2017 Warriors" is basically just the 2017 Warriors with a prime David West and Varejao. 90% of the team is the same.

Compare that to the Heat in which no one outside of Lebron or Chalmers was in their prime and it's a wash. The Prime 2013 Heat would take this easily imo. Am very surprised by the poll results.

The Warriors are starting with a better team and it's not like they make no improvements

[PistolPeteJR]

This doesn't really make sense. "Prime 2017 Warriors" is basically just the 2017 Warriors with a prime David West and Varejao. 90% of the team is the same.

Compare that to the Heat in which no one outside of Lebron or Chalmers was in their prime and it's a wash. The Prime 2013 Heat would take this easily imo. Am very surprised by the poll results.

The Warriors are starting with a better team and it's not like they make no improvements

If what you're saying is 2017 Warriors vs 2013 Heat (with no changes) is in favour of 2017 Warriors, I agree.
But this thread is taking into account every individual on those teams being in their primes. That said, what does it matter whether one team or another is better to start? Given the premise of the topic here, it's about the better team given roster composition and primes, at the end of the day. And that is clearly Miami in this case. There is virtually no case to be made otherwise. If there is, please, make it, I'm honestly game to see this objectively, just as I make my claim objectively too. (:

[Dr Positivity]

This doesn't really make sense. "Prime 2017 Warriors" is basically just the 2017 Warriors with a prime David West and Varejao. 90% of the team is the same.

Compare that to the Heat in which no one outside of Lebron or Chalmers was in their prime and it's a wash. The Prime 2013 Heat would take this easily imo. Am very surprised by the poll results.

The Warriors are starting with a better team and it's not like they make no improvements

If what you're saying is 2017 Warriors vs 2013 Heat (with no changes) is in favour of 2017 Warriors, I agree.
But this thread is taking into account every individual on those teams being in their primes. That said, what does it matter whether one team or another is better to start? Given the premise of the topic here, it's about the better team given roster composition and primes, at the end of the day. And that is clearly Miami in this case. There is virtually no case to be made otherwise. If there is, please, make it, I'm honestly game to see this objectively, just as I make my claim objectively too. (:

I don't see Curry/Durant having less all-star help here than Lebron/Wade. So it depends if you see Lebron/Wade as clearly better than Curry/Durant because they have Lebron, while I think they are more talented and I'm personally a Durant hater, you can argue that LBJ and Wade's games overlap more as seen by both their stats declining from 2010 to 2011.

[McBubbles]

Prime Lebron and prime Wade is huge, but in reality would it work? My turn your turn? They had this problem in 2011. Allen with both prime Lebron/Wade would be only Klay version with worse defence. Prime Bosh also didn’t work with Wade and Lebron.

The same thing with KD and Green/Curry. You won’t get 2016 Green/Curry and prime KD at the same time. Prime West and Iggy would be the best fit including both teams. All time level defence would be added.

In reality I would like more GSW fit than Lebron/Wade my turn your turn.

Bosh = West
Battier < Green
Lebron > Durant
Allen = Klay
Wade = Curry

Iggy sweep everyone on the heat bench.

1. What do you mean "would it work"? It worked in real life. Despite 2011 being the season in which Eric Spoelstra by his own admission sacrificed offence in order to practice more defence, and it being Lebron's worst offensive season on the Heat, they were #3 in offensive rating this year.

2. What d'you mean Prime Bosh "didn't work" with Lebron and Wade? What in your mind does Bosh "working" with Lebron and Wade look like? Don't tell me that you think going from being a first option on a horrible team to a 3rd option on a team with two scorers better than you means that you've become a worse player.

3. Ray Allen is better than Klay Thompson. The difference in their defence isn't enough to overcome Ray's offensive edge.

[OhayoKD]

The Warriors are starting with a better team and it's not like they make no improvements

If what you're saying is 2017 Warriors vs 2013 Heat (with no changes) is in favour of 2017 Warriors, I agree.
But this thread is taking into account every individual on those teams being in their primes. That said, what does it matter whether one team or another is better to start? Given the premise of the topic here, it's about the better team given roster composition and primes, at the end of the day. And that is clearly Miami in this case. There is virtually no case to be made otherwise. If there is, please, make it, I'm honestly game to see this objectively, just as I make my claim objectively too. (:

I don't see Curry/Durant having less all-star help here than Lebron/Wade. So it depends if you see Lebron/Wade as clearly better than Curry/Durant because they have Lebron, while I think they are more talented and I'm personally a Durant hater, you can argue that LBJ and Wade's games overlap more as seen by both their stats declining from 2010 to 2011.

Overlap or no overlap, bosh missing 8 games and wade playing on one good leg, without ray allen, was enough for the heat to post a +13 psrs(26th all time) with the heat going +13.8 and 8-1 when all three started. Then, before the finals, Wade got his knees filled and Miami pretty decisively beat a soon to be +9 SRS team + James Harden.

Now instead of breaking down, Wade is healthy, Lebron either has his post game/shooting or his 2009/2010 athleticism, and Ray Allen upgrades to a borderline superstar who also happens to solve the heat's biggest offensive weakness. If there's a chink in the armor, it's their paint-protection, but as we saw with an older-lebron playing with bad defenders, the warriors are too small to exploit that.

I do think there's probably a case to be made for the warriors anyway based on the raw math of 3>2 and them, strategically, being an evoliution of what the heat were, but I'm not that concerned about peak wade and peak lebron figuring it out in a playoff setting given how they were able to beat back to back all-time oppponents despite a levy of injury problems and lebron shooting cold one of those series.

I also don't think KD/Curry is neccesarily as synergistic as people say it was. 2017 was nice, but 2018 and 2019 were definite underperformances even when kd was starting the games.

[PistolPeteJR]

The Warriors are starting with a better team and it's not like they make no improvements

If what you're saying is 2017 Warriors vs 2013 Heat (with no changes) is in favour of 2017 Warriors, I agree.
But this thread is taking into account every individual on those teams being in their primes. That said, what does it matter whether one team or another is better to start? Given the premise of the topic here, it's about the better team given roster composition and primes, at the end of the day. And that is clearly Miami in this case. There is virtually no case to be made otherwise. If there is, please, make it, I'm honestly game to see this objectively, just as I make my claim objectively too. (:

I don't see Curry/Durant having less all-star help here than Lebron/Wade. So it depends if you see Lebron/Wade as clearly better than Curry/Durant because they have Lebron, while I think they are more talented and I'm personally a Durant hater, you can argue that LBJ and Wade's games overlap more as seen by both their stats declining from 2010 to 2011.

I would take peak Wade (09) over any KD year, FWIW. So it's not just about having the best player amongst the 4 in LeBron. That said, I think LeBron/Wade both in their primes at the same time are clearly better than KD/Curry. Sure, the latter have better offensive synergy, I agree with that, but defensively it's not even close.

In terms of supporting casts, I don't see a case for prime Green/Klay/Iggy/West/Barnes over prime Allen/Lewis/Bosh/Battier/Miller.

Green and Iggy in their primes is nasty defensively, but you've got prime Battier and LeBron on the other end. Prime Allen on defense was no slouch either.

Looking at this another way, I don't see how Curry/Klay/Iggy/Durant/Green is deadlier than Wade/Allen/Lewis/James/Bosh. You've got floor-spacing for the Heat with Allen/Lewis/Bosh and they also win on size. I have no issues with Wade being tasked on Curry defensively and Allen running around defending Klay. Lewis' size on Durant isn't a problem at all, and at worst, you put him on Green or Iggy. They're not going to do much anyhow. 2012 or 2013 LeBron on Durant will be completely fine for the DPOY. At worst, you swap Lewis for Battier in the lineup and put Battier on Durant/Iggy with Bosh on Green, and Battier's still spacing the floor.

On the other end, who's Curry defending? I'm not saying he's an abysmal defender, but given the matchup, who's he defending? There are literally no ok-to-good matchups for him to defend. Wade? Lewis? No. Camp out on Battier? Just plug Lewis in and put him at the dunker's spot. Allen? Sure, prime Allen giving Curry a taste of his own medicine and running all over the court on defense is gravy for Miami, and in any case, prime Allen was much more than a Klay-type shooter.

Even the benches I think are clearly in Miami's favour. Let's assume they're going with a 10-man RS rotation (they won't be, but just for fun), between prime Miller, Battier/Lewis, Haslem, Birdman, they've got excellent defense and scoring off their bench, mixing lineups like Wade/Miller/Battier/Haslem/Bosh, Allen/Battier/LeBron/Lewis/Birdman, etc, to matchup against the likes of Livingston, West, Barnes, Looney, McGee. All of the Warriors here in exception of Barnes can't space the floor at all and Miami has no issue dealing with the paint, which means they're obviously not playing 3/5 of those guys.

I'm not saying I think the Heat are sweeping them, but I don't think it goes more than 6 games in Miami's favour.

Anyway, fun to think about (:

[Dee45]

Who wins a best of 7 with everyone in their prime, the 2017 Warriors or the 2013 Heat?

All Prime 2017 Warriors
Steph Curry / Shaun Livingston
Klay Thompson / Andre Iguodala / Ian Clark
Kevin Durant / Matt Barnes
Draymond Green / David West
Anderson Varejao / Kevon Looney / JaVale McGee / Zaza Pachulia

All Prime 2013 Heat
Dwyane Wade / Mario Chalmers
Ray Allen / James Jones / Norris Cole
Rashard Lewis / Shane Battier / Mile Miller
LeBron James / Udonis Haslem
Chris Bosh / Chris Andersen / Joel Anthony

Nice poll, but Varejao was waived by the Warriors before Matt Barnes got there, so it wouldn't make sense for them to be on the same team together when they were not teammates during that season. I would start Zaza and I would have Lewis at PF and LeBron at SF for the Heat. Mike Miller should backup Ray and James Jones should be third string behind LeBron and Battier, plus Juwan Howard was on the team too, so you forgot about him.

[Dee45]

2013 Heat, but it would have been a great series.