70sFan wrote:OhayoKD wrote:70sFan wrote:Are we doing the same when you push Magic over Bird (and sometimes over Jordan)?
I've never put Magic above Jordan. He has a solid empirical case, but i've consistently sided with mj anyway
That aside, the point here is that regardless of whether magic benefitted from weak competition or not, if someone belives magic was better than bird(and he obviously was) as well as jordan(eh), then his championship prospects would not be as depdendent on conference luck as someone who is 4th(because now the odds become that its' more likely than not you face two of these better players).
If you want to argue that bird was actually better than magic and this was just obfiscated by a weak west, fine, but HBK is not disputing the placement, they're disputing the relevance of how you rank among your peers in a cross-era comparison
If someone believes that West is better than Wilt and Oscar (which is defensible), then it's the same situation.
Sure. If dygaction's in-era rankings are off, then the whole thought train is derailed.
[quoye]The difference is that West had to play against a better player with (usually but not always) better team, while Magic didn't face Jordan, because MJ lacked supporting cast.[/quote]
Well the extent to which it was "jordan lacked supporting cast" and the extent it was "jordan was not russell-level valuable in hid era individually" is debatable I think. The real wrench in this equivalency is there's a solid case to be made for Magic as the closest thing to a Russell approximation among his peers between
-> Best winning percentage rs and playoffs
-> Best wowy with potential to match in "snippets" as lurker liked to call them
-> Best proof of concept with multiple coaches/without co-stars(kareem)
And to be clear, i have hakeem as the best player of the period who Magic lost once to and beat twice. Magic also beat bird after he swept jordan and beat the pistons after they stopped jordan at or around his apex. Jordan beating him once in a context pretty similar to Wilt's 1967 triumph(with teammate injury/recent retirements being more prominent) is not that concerning when you were the one racking up more wins than everyone else. Perhaps if he isn't forced to retire, he goes 2-1 vs Jordan as well before a proper retirement in 94. As is, if we had seen magic's lakers trade for hakeem or bird in 92 and still lose, there would have been more cause for concern.
