'89 Jordan vs '18 LeBron

[D.Brasco]

Who do you think was operating at the higher level?

[zimpy27]

Well Jordan was working way harder in the regular season and was better there. When LeBron put the effort in (playoffs) he was the better player.

[VanWest82]

In 1988, Jordan won DPOY and MVP.

In 2018, the internet went crazy with memes about how Lebron was no longer moving on defense (because he was conserving energy on offense). In related news, 2018 Cavs were much better on defense with Lebron on the bench to the point where they were actually at their best with him on the bench.

Also in 2018, Lebron punched a wall in the playoffs and compromised his team's chances of winning any more of the games.

[Cavsfansince84]

That was 89 MJ and his rs was definitely a tier or so above LeBron's. In the playoffs its more of a tossup but I think you'd trust LeBron's experience more at that point.

[D.Brasco]

That was 89 MJ and his rs was definitely a tier or so above LeBron's. In the playoffs its more of a tossup but I think you'd trust LeBron's experience more at that point.

You're right I edited the title to make it clearer.

[IG2]

In related news, 2018 Cavs were much better on defense with Lebron on the bench to the point where they were actually at their best with him on the bench.

Huh? 2018 Cavs were +1.4 with LeBron ON and -0.5 with him OFF. Net +1.9 for the season. So....not really at their "best" with LeBron on the bench.

[IG2]

26 year old MJ vs. 33 year old LeBron

This isn't the most fair comparison. LeBron simply couldn't afford to be a high-energy 2-way player at that age on a very limited Cavalier team. MJ in '89 on the other hand was at his zenith. His regular season is a couple of notches above LeBron's. Postseason is a slight edge to LeBron.

[rk2023]

Quite the obvious bait thread here, we all know the answer’s Jordan.. Wonder what could come out of this thread

[D.Brasco]

26 year old MJ vs. 33 year old LeBron

This isn't the most fair comparison. LeBron simply couldn't afford to be a high-energy 2-way player at that age on a very limited Cavalier team. MJ in '89 on the other hand was at his zenith. His regular season is a couple of notches above LeBron's. Postseason is a slight edge to LeBron.

I think 2018 LeBron is somewhat underrated he wasn't at his peak but he was still in his prime and still very good and despite being 33, he actually played all 82 games for the first time in his career. He then turned it up another level in the playoffs averaging 34.0 points, 9.1 rebounds and 9.0 assists.

'89 Jordan was nearer to his peak but peak Jordan I feel tends to be seen as his early 90s years, 90-93.

[zimpy27]

26 year old MJ vs. 33 year old LeBron

This isn't the most fair comparison. LeBron simply couldn't afford to be a high-energy 2-way player at that age on a very limited Cavalier team. MJ in '89 on the other hand was at his zenith. His regular season is a couple of notches above LeBron's. Postseason is a slight edge to LeBron.

I think 2018 LeBron is somewhat underrated he wasn't at his peak but he was still in his prime and still very good and despite being 33, he actually played all 82 games for the first time in his career. He then turned it up another level in the playoffs averaging 34.0 points, 9.1 rebounds and 9.0 assists.

'89 Jordan was nearer to his peak but peak Jordan I feel tends to be seen as his early 90s years, 90-93.

Yeah but LeBron coasted on defense that year to conserve energy. And it worked. In the playoffs he was an absolute beast.

Horford talks about LeBrons fitness in 2018 playoffs as disturbing.

Watch on YouTube

[VanWest82]

In related news, 2018 Cavs were much better on defense with Lebron on the bench to the point where they were actually at their best with him on the bench.

Huh? 2018 Cavs were +1.4 with LeBron ON and -0.5 with him OFF. Net +1.9 for the season. So....not really at their "best" with LeBron on the bench.

At their best on defense. Apologies, wording was a little ambiguous.

[TheGOATRises007]

Overall, I'd pick Jordan.

[The Master]

Jordan '89 is hard to assess:

- great regular season individually, with Bulls getting worse as a team,
- fantastic individual display against Cavs,
- but they wouldn't have advanced if Price hadn't gotten injured before (?) that series,
- great-great series against Knicks,
- with so-so performance against Pistons from 2-1 in the series with 8FGA performance (outside of fantastic G3, Jordan was stopped by the Pistons on 26-5-7-4tov on 52 TS%).

I'd go:

- RS Jordan
- PO LeBron
- until he injured himself

There's no wrong question, but I don't think it makes too much sense to compare 26yo Jordan to 33yo LeBron after 7 trips to the finals in a row.

[Heej]

In related news, 2018 Cavs were much better on defense with Lebron on the bench to the point where they were actually at their best with him on the bench.

Huh? 2018 Cavs were +1.4 with LeBron ON and -0.5 with him OFF. Net +1.9 for the season. So....not really at their "best" with LeBron on the bench.

At their best on defense. Apologies, wording was a little ambiguous.

Cleaning the glass has 2017-18 LeBron as +5.6 for defensive on/off. Care to explain where you derived this "much better on defense with LeBron on the bench" fantasy from?

Also, the Cavs had a 111.2 DRTG in the 2018 playoffs, while LeBron individually was at 108.7 so I'm not sure how this jives with the Cavs being better on defense when LeBron sat; as you would expect the Cavs overall rating to be lower in general while LeBron's individual should be higher. Lacking plenty nuance sure, but surely the numbers would paint a slam dunk case with how confidently you stated this position.

I also find it interesting how if you look at the actual perception of what was happening as the games were being played (especially in the LeBron threads where every aspect of his game is meticulously criticized and picked apart) the common refrain is that LeBron turned it up significantly on defense in the playoffs. Hell look at this casual ringer article to see what the normies were thinking at the time

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2018/5/21/17375252/lebron-james-defense-trust-ecf

[VanWest82]

Huh? 2018 Cavs were +1.4 with LeBron ON and -0.5 with him OFF. Net +1.9 for the season. So....not really at their "best" with LeBron on the bench.

At their best on defense. Apologies, wording was a little ambiguous.

Cleaning the glass has 2017-18 LeBron as +5.6 for defensive on/off. Care to explain where you derived this "much better on defense with LeBron on the bench" fantasy from?

Also, the Cavs had a 111.2 DRTG in the 2018 playoffs, while LeBron individually was at 108.7 so I'm not sure how this jives with the Cavs being better on defense when LeBron sat; as you would expect the Cavs overall rating to be lower in general while LeBron's individual should be higher. Lacking plenty nuance sure, but surely the numbers would paint a slam dunk case with how confidently you stated this position.

I also find it interesting how if you look at the actual perception of what was happening as the games were being played (especially in the LeBron threads where every aspect of his game is meticulously criticized and picked apart) the common refrain is that LeBron turned it up significantly on defense in the playoffs. Hell look at this casual ringer article to see what the normies were thinking at the time

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2018/5/21/17375252/lebron-james-defense-trust-ecf

He was better in the playoffs when he started trying again. nba.com is down but I think you'll see when it's up again that the + figure you're referring to is suggesting Cavs defense rating was greater with Lebron on the court. I'll try again later but I'm fairly sure as I looked at this before that Cavs defense had its lowest DRTG with Lebron on the bench in the regular season. Also, I'm not imagining those memes. Internet was crushing Lebron at the end of 2018 regular season and then did it again early 2019 with Lakers. I'll get back to you.

Edit: not sure if this will work as it's currently taking nba.com like five mins just to load a page but...https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612739/onoffcourt-advanced?Season=2017-18&dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

Cavs DRTG with Lebron: 112.1
Cavs DRTG w/out Lebron: 103.8 (next lowest is 105.7)

FWIW the memes were all about how entire 24 shot clock defensive possessions would transpire and Lebron wouldn't move. They were basically playing a one man zone defensively with Lebron stationed weak side baseline, and the other four defenders doing all the work. I've never seen anything like it before or since. And I don't say this to denigrate Lebron because what he was doing on the other side carrying the offense was extraordinary, but in comparison with 88 Jordan who was a two way god in the regular season...it's just a bad comparison.

[The Master]

Cleaning the glass has 2017-18 LeBron as +5.6 for defensive on/off. Care to explain where you derived this "much better on defense with LeBron on the bench" fantasy from?

VanWest82 is correct about defensive on/off: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/on-off/2018

LeBron was pretty weak defensively that year: not as bad as these on/off stats suggest (they had pretty unbalanced roster and lineups that year), but Cavs had a long stretch when they were absolutely lost, with LeBron completely gassed out physically, with some internal problems as well. They went from 24-9 to 30-22 and won this crazy game against Wolves - and then figured it out (finished with 50-32, then advanced to the finals).

Watch on YouTube

Cavs had the oldest roster in the NBA after 3 finals in a row, with several players being washed-up, it couldn't have gone smoothly.

[Heej]

At their best on defense. Apologies, wording was a little ambiguous.

Cleaning the glass has 2017-18 LeBron as +5.6 for defensive on/off. Care to explain where you derived this "much better on defense with LeBron on the bench" fantasy from?

Also, the Cavs had a 111.2 DRTG in the 2018 playoffs, while LeBron individually was at 108.7 so I'm not sure how this jives with the Cavs being better on defense when LeBron sat; as you would expect the Cavs overall rating to be lower in general while LeBron's individual should be higher. Lacking plenty nuance sure, but surely the numbers would paint a slam dunk case with how confidently you stated this position.

I also find it interesting how if you look at the actual perception of what was happening as the games were being played (especially in the LeBron threads where every aspect of his game is meticulously criticized and picked apart) the common refrain is that LeBron turned it up significantly on defense in the playoffs. Hell look at this casual ringer article to see what the normies were thinking at the time

https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/nba/2018/5/21/17375252/lebron-james-defense-trust-ecf

He was better in the playoffs when he started trying again. nba.com is down but I think you'll see when it's up again that the + figure you're referring to is suggesting Cavs defense rating was greater with Lebron on the court. I'll try again later but I'm fairly sure as I looked at this before that Cavs defense had its lowest DRTG with Lebron on the bench in the regular season. Also, I'm not imagining those memes. Internet was crushing Lebron at the end of 2018 regular season and then did it again early 2019 with Lakers. I'll get back to you.

Copy. I'm not too great with stats beyond the basic stuff but makes sense to me for his regular season to have been weak but his playoff defensive effort to have been strong. Would have to wait for someone who has access to the stats to post playoff numbers but sounds about right for his defense to be down in RS and up in PS

[OhayoKD]

Well Jordan was working way harder in the regular season and was better there. When LeBron put the effort in (playoffs) he was the better player.

This is one of the few common "peak" comparisons where Jordan has a decent rs argument. That being said...

VanWest82 is correct about defensive on/off: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01/on-off/2018

LeBron was pretty weak defensively that year: not as bad as these on/off stats suggest (they had pretty unbalanced roster and lineups that year), but Cavs had a long stretch when they were absolutely lost, with LeBron completely gassed out physically, with some internal problems as well. They went from 24-9 to 30-22 and won this crazy game against Wolves - and then figured it out (finished with 50-32, then advanced to the finals).

You do realize this on/off comes from a season Lebron missed no games?

But sure, the Cavs really were worse with Lebron defensively on the regular season, and that's why...Their d-rating got 6 points worse in 2019.

And of course if we use the previous years where Lebron actually missed games...the cavs defense drops off significantly without him each and every year...

You guys really spent a page on this. Bravo

[Djoker]

Lebron was horrible on D in 2018. Even if you want to say that he was on MJ's level offensively in the playoffs (numbers are a wash) I think considering defense and the much better RS from Jordan, it's not particularly close. I recently watched the Knicks and Pistons series in the 1989 playoffs to track plus minus and MJ was a fiend on defense. Against Detroit, he shut down Isiah at times and generally made life very very difficult on him. It is one of his finest defensive series.

[VanWest82]

Lebron was horrible on D in 2018. Even if you want to say that he was on MJ's level offensively in the playoffs (numbers are a wash) I think considering defense and the much better RS from Jordan, it's not particularly close. I recently watched the Knicks and Pistons series in the 1989 playoffs to track plus minus and MJ was a fiend on defense. Against Detroit, he shut down Isiah at times and generally made life very very difficult on him. It is one of his finest defensive series.

Agreed. It's pretty amazing Craig Hodges survived that series. Both Isiah and Dumars picked on him to the point where it was literally the difference in who won and lost, but every now and then they'd get stuck going against MJ and it didn't end well.

I've always felt this was an underrated reason Collins got fired. He wanted to space the floor for Jordan but Paxson was the much better defender, and proved to be a good enough shooter in subsequent years. Hodges killed the Bulls in 89 vs. Pistons who basically did everything to avoid Jordan defensively.