What makes Joker better than Giannis?

[Fundamentals21]

Wanted a debate on this, one is constantly ranked over the other, but Giannis brings the full package with defense.

[Johnny Firpo]

The "bigger gap on defense than on offense" is one of the laziest, yet often used takes I see around here. Jokic is a much, much, much better offensive player than Giannis, consistently since Giannis's championship run. Now he is also a severely underrated defender. The advanced stats show this, and now the eye test too, I would say since at least late 2022 (Jokic upped his defensive intensity and effort very clearly). If you want to get technical about it, he is clearly better in the following areas:

He is a much better shooter and passer.
He is actually the consistently better playoff scorer.
He is even more consistent than Giannis (has less below average to average games, rarely have bad games)
He is a much more willing and better screen setter
And he is actually a better rebounder too.

Those would be the main areas that separate Jokic from Giannis. Jokic, right now, doesn't really have any weaknesses. Giannis does, and also, Giannis just hasn't played as consistently at a superstar level since the finals run. He is awesome, but in the last three seasons, just hasn't been as good as Jokic.

[Statlanta]

Unrelated/in response to Johnny Firpo

Spoiler:

I disagree that Jokic doesn't have weaknesses. Jokic does have weaknesses like his much often maligned lack of mobility and his less talked about avoidance of fouls by letting people go instead of contesting late. Jokic also overpasses at times, not necessarily stat-padding his efficiency but over-relying on his teammates for baskets like passing out of open 3pt shots.

Much like the difference between Marcus Camby/Dwight Howard and Tim Duncan, Giannis gets publicity for the highlight defensive play(especially with his apt for flexing/celebrating) so his defense is often seen more compared to his counterpart making the smart defensive play but just staying on his man and getting deflections(in Jokic's case kicking the ball to make up for his athleticism short comings) that don't lead to turnover but disrupt the offensive rhythm.

Jokic is a better offensive player, and the gap really expands when you go off-ball, the whole package(rebounding, spacing, passing, screening) and it probably makes him fit better with new acquisitions(thinking about Damian Lillard).

The underrated thing in this comparison is that Jokic is more durable than Antetokoumpo despite having clearly worse physical body and athleticism. Giannis throws himself into havoc consistently and that gets him in trouble. In his championship season he got away with this because he got to face the Atlanta Hawks over a traditional contending team also proving that he benefits from playing in a weaker conference.

[Texas Chuck]

For me its simple -- Jokic controls games in ways no other player is currently capable of. He is the defining player of every single game he plays. We all know both of their skillsets and I have nothing new to add to that.

No shame in being the 2nd (or 3rd depending on how one sees Embiid) best player to Jokic. He's that special of a player. Turns out he is the Lebron successor.

[TroubleS0me]

The "bigger gap on defense than on offense" is one of the laziest, yet often used takes I see around here. Jokic is a much, much, much better offensive player than Giannis, consistently since Giannis's championship run. Now he is also a severely underrated defender. The advanced stats show this, and now the eye test too, I would say since at least late 2022 (Jokic upped his defensive intensity and effort very clearly). If you want to get technical about it, he is clearly better in the following areas:

He is a much better shooter and passer.
He is actually the consistently better playoff scorer.
He is even more consistent than Giannis (has less below average to average games, rarely have bad games)
He is a much more willing and better screen setter
And he is actually a better rebounder too.

Those would be the main areas that separate Jokic from Giannis. Jokic, right now, doesn't really have any weaknesses. Giannis does, and also, Giannis just hasn't played as consistently at a superstar level since the finals run. He is awesome, but in the last three seasons, just hasn't been as good as Jokic.

Yea he does have...
How is Jokic more consistent than Giannis? Giannis is at career high in FG% this season.

[OhayoKD]

For me its simple -- Jokic controls games in ways no other player is currently capable of. He is the defining player of every single game he plays. We all know both of their skillsets and I have nothing new to add to that.

No shame in being the 2nd (or 3rd depending on how one sees Embiid) best player to Jokic. He's that special of a player. Turns out he is the Lebron successor.

He controls games offensively that way. But there is nothing suggesting he's on his own level when defense comes into the picture. 2021 and 2022 happened you know

[Peregrine01]

The "bigger gap on defense than on offense" is one of the laziest, yet often used takes I see around here. Jokic is a much, much, much better offensive player than Giannis, consistently since Giannis's championship run. Now he is also a severely underrated defender. The advanced stats show this, and now the eye test too, I would say since at least late 2022 (Jokic upped his defensive intensity and effort very clearly). If you want to get technical about it, he is clearly better in the following areas:

He is a much better shooter and passer.
He is actually the consistently better playoff scorer.
He is even more consistent than Giannis (has less below average to average games, rarely have bad games)
He is a much more willing and better screen setter
And he is actually a better rebounder too.

Those would be the main areas that separate Jokic from Giannis. Jokic, right now, doesn't really have any weaknesses. Giannis does, and also, Giannis just hasn't played as consistently at a superstar level since the finals run. He is awesome, but in the last three seasons, just hasn't been as good as Jokic.

Yea he does have...
How is Jokic more consistent than Giannis? Giannis is at career high in FG% this season.

I think the better term is more inelastic. Jokic has an answer to any defense in a way that probably no other player has ever had - and he does it in a way that elevates everyone around him in a way that probably no other player ever has. Giannis can look like world beater against some teams and in some situations and look thoroughly contained in others.

I also wouldn't use FG% or TS% to compare scoring efficacy. Jokic gets dinged for the amount of tips he has and for leading the league in "grenade" shots (attempts late in the clock) and generally isn't going off against poor teams in the regular season. He's proven to be the thoroughly better scorer in the playoffs, which matters a lot more in my view.

[Eagle4]

Joker is just more offensively resilient than Giannis. I think the Miami matchup is a perfect example. Miami has repeatedly neutralized Giannis by simply creating a wall in front of him since his jump shot is subpar. With Jokic, he simply has little if any weaknesses to consistently generate easy points during the ENTIRETY of the game. Especially crunch time where Giannis has to defer to Dame/Middleton because he's a poor FT shooter.

[PistolPeteJR]

Jokic is miles ahead of Giannis on offense. Sure, Giannis is clearly the better defender, but the gap between the two on O > their gap on D, I think.

Also, what hurts Giannis in my eyes is the fact that when it matters, in the playoffs, he's not the guy you go to for a bucket most of the time. At least, that was the case in 2021. It was Middleton, time and time again.

[rk2023]

Boils down to him having more of a value over a replacement player - as well as more of a share towards’ his teams’ winning.

[O_6]

His offensive scoring diversity and passing makes him harder to gameplay for. Giannis is the best interior scorer since Shaq, even above LeBron, so defenses know exactly how to target him over a series.

Giannis shoots an .803 FG% on 46.8% of his FGAs since ‘20
Jokic shoots a .758 FG% on 26.1% of his FGAs since ‘20

Giannis is a much better defender, with crazy coverage as a free safety type.

GOAT tier interior scorer and significantly better defender.

But Jokic also being so damn good at scoring inside is what hurts Giannis’ argument. He will never be the defender that Giannis is although his footwork and size makes him average or so, but his passing is a completely different element on offense where he far surpasses Giannis and makes him a pretty clearly superior offensive player by a decent margin. On top of his touch being possibly the best I’ve seen with his silly shots in that 12ft range that he makes when he’s right.

Giannis isn’t that far off. I think the perception is bigger than what it actually is. For example, the difference is definitely closer than prime LeBron vs. Prime KD imo.

But Jokic has hit a level where it feels like he’s going 90% against even the best teams when he’s killing them. Giannis is Giannis because it seems he’s always trying to kill people even against trash teams. That perception difference feels real and I do think it comes down to Jokic having possibly the most diverse offensive skill set ever.

I know he doesn’t drive which means you can question that comment. But all the ways he can sleepily hit you up is crazy.

[AIfan3]

Jokic can be a team's entire offense. That makes its soo much easier to build a team around him. Not to mention he's a better rebounder. Giannis falls asleep boxing out a lot.

Giannis also needs to be surrounded by shooters to really maximize his game.

[Dr Positivity]

He is way better on offense. I see Giannis as worse than his stats as a scorer like Robinson.

[Cavsfansince84]

Jokic can be a team's entire offense. That makes its soo much easier to build a team around him. Not to mention he's a better rebounder. Giannis falls asleep boxing out a lot.

Giannis also needs to be surrounded by shooters to really maximize his game.

People do sort of sleep on how good of a rebounder he is. He's not just good, he's at or above the level of Duncan, KG and other all time bigs in terms of treb%(also a strong off rebounder) and he also ups it in the playoffs like they did.

[TroubleS0me]

The "bigger gap on defense than on offense" is one of the laziest, yet often used takes I see around here. Jokic is a much, much, much better offensive player than Giannis, consistently since Giannis's championship run. Now he is also a severely underrated defender. The advanced stats show this, and now the eye test too, I would say since at least late 2022 (Jokic upped his defensive intensity and effort very clearly). If you want to get technical about it, he is clearly better in the following areas:

He is a much better shooter and passer.
He is actually the consistently better playoff scorer.
He is even more consistent than Giannis (has less below average to average games, rarely have bad games)
He is a much more willing and better screen setter
And he is actually a better rebounder too.

Those would be the main areas that separate Jokic from Giannis. Jokic, right now, doesn't really have any weaknesses. Giannis does, and also, Giannis just hasn't played as consistently at a superstar level since the finals run. He is awesome, but in the last three seasons, just hasn't been as good as Jokic.

Yea he does have...
How is Jokic more consistent than Giannis? Giannis is at career high in FG% this season.

I think the better term is more inelastic. Jokic has an answer to any defense in a way that probably no other player has ever had - and he does it in a way that elevates everyone around him in a way that probably no other player ever has. Giannis can look like world beater against some teams and in some situations and look thoroughly contained in others.

I also wouldn't use FG% or TS% to compare scoring efficacy. Jokic gets dinged for the amount of tips he has and for leading the league in "grenade" shots (attempts late in the clock) and generally isn't going off against poor teams in the regular season. He's proven to be the thoroughly better scorer in the playoffs, which matters a lot more in my view.

Yes when you praise in this way I agree, when you talk about the different defenses Jokic faces and yes FG% or TS% is not the end all be all for efficency but its a start.

[letskissbro]

Playing with 3-4 starters at all times gives Jokic an air of inevitability around him that's harder to maintain when you're playing half your minutes with bench units that aren't as effective at covering for your weaknesses defensively. I don't think either player has improved/declined significantly from 2021 and 2022 yet if you asked this question back then the attitudes would be flipped.

Giannis has his struggles offensively but it's being forgotten how much of a game changer he can be on defense. The Bucks narrowly lost to the Celtics in 2022 without Middleton despite his ugly shooting splits because he was so dominant on the other side of the court.

All in all I don't think the two have been far off from each other over the last 4 seasons. But it comes across better to be putting up 30 point triple doubles while giving up a 125 DRtg than to narrowly lose in an ugly mid 2000s Spurs style game while shooting 40% from the field.

[Doctor MJ]

Wanted a debate on this, one is constantly ranked over the other, but Giannis brings the full package with defense.

Let me put it this way:

In terms of "what" Jokic is better at than Giannis, that's pretty clear isn't it? Shooting, passing, rebounding, strength, feel.
But one can acknowledge all that and still feel that any offensive advantage Jokic has over the also-an-offensive-superstar Giannis are more than made up for on the defensive end.

So if it turns out that Jokic's advantages are making him the better overall player, how can that be? What are we underrating/overrating? My assessment:

1. Feel is just an incredibly big deal in basketball, particularly when exemplified by extreme outliers - and I think Jokic is the most extreme I've ever seen. If you're not factoring this in as a massive thing, I think you're probably underrating Jokic by quite a lot.

2. Defense is half of the team's game, but that doesn't mean the most valuable offensive player is having the same amount of offensive impact as the the most valuable defensive player is having on his side of the other side of the ball. Back before the arc, the top players tended to dominate through defense, but now it's the other way around. Maybe it won't always be - maybe we're about to see Wemby change everything - but as it has been for quite a while now, you'll overrate defense-oriented players if you start from an assumption that outliers on both sides are symmetrical.

3. At this point there are once again concerns about playoff resilience with Giannis' Bucks. The championship quieted the critics before, and another will likely do it again, but it is disturbing to many - including myself - the way the Bucks are prone shocking upsets.

To be clear, I've tried to set all this up not to explain "why I know" Jokic is better than Giannis, and I want to point out that points (1) & (2) are just plain true but do not represent any kind of proof that Jokic is better than Giannis overall, while (3) is something that may not hold up, and if it doesn't, that will likely represent a shift in opinion back toward Giannis.

[One_and_Done]

We'll see after these playoffs if people still feel the gap is this big.

[yannisk]

I have Jokic ahead but not by much. Perceptions change quickly depending on the playoffs. Giannis was ranked higher than AD till lakers won the championship. Then AD was considered better (at least in the realgm polls), after Giannis won the championship and till Jokic won his, Giannis was for the majority the best player in the league even though Jokic was winning the MVPs. Now Jokic is considered an all time great (which he is) and Giannis is getting underrated.

I don't expect Bucks to do well in the playoffs, if Denver wins again Jokic will start knocking top 10 all time, but if they lose the Jokic mania will cool a bit.

As I said I have Jokic ahead and the main reason is his passing. He is one of the best passers i have seen and that separates him from Giannis who is a good passer himself but not at Jokic's level.

[Woodsanity]

How big is the defensive gap nowadays really?

Bucks are ranked 20th on defense. If Giannis was still a super elite defender that would not be the case.

Nuggets are ranked 9th on defense despite people constantly saying Jokic isn't a good defender (not the case anymore btw).