2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread

[eminence]

Jokic
Tatum
SGA
Luka
Giannis

My top 5 as the RS ends, fairly flexible for PO changes, Wolves duo (Ant/Rudy) and the old guard (LeBron/Steph/Kawhi) in particular in position to quickly move up. Embiid maybe too if they can go deep.

POs will be king, but would have SGA inching over Tatum going into the playoffs.

[The-Power]

Where I am for POY right now:

Jokic
Luka

Shai/Giannis (somewhat a gap due to their end of year injuries)

Why the gap between Luka and SGA, if I may ask? I genuinely struggle to see the possible reasoning but of course that's not to say that there isn't one, and so I'd really like to hear it.

[falcolombardi]

Where I am for POY right now:

Jokic
Luka

Shai/Giannis (somewhat a gap due to their end of year injuries)

Why the gap between Luka and SGA, if I may ask? I genuinely struggle to see the possible reasoning but of course that's not to say that there isn't one, and so I'd really like to hear it.

Luka is more playoff proven even if the comparision is unfair to shai circunstances.

[falcolombardi]

Wonder what real gm will think about presti for EOY

Previous years he didnt get serious consideration because his demolition and asset seeking moves had still not became anythingh

This year it all came together as what is looking like nba most perfect rebuild in ages so one would assume he gets his due

Hopefully we dont get a situation where he now instead gets dismissee because chet, shai or jalen picks happened in other years

Spwcially because it would signal that long term "organic" team building just cannot win COY as opposed to FA signings or blockbuster trades that give more inmediate same yeat results

[Colbinii]

Wonder what real gm will think about presti for EOY

Previous years he didnt get serious consideration because his demolition and asset seeking moves had still not became anythingh

This year it all came together as what is looking like nba most perfect rebuild in ages so one would assume he gets his due

Hopefully we dont get a situation where he now instead gets dismissee because chet, shai or jalen picks happened in other years

Spwcially because it would signal that long term "organic" team building just cannot win COY as opposed to FA signings or blockbuster trades that give more inmediate same yeat results

How would this ever work?

Should we also nominate Gersson Rosas for drafting Anthony Edwards and hiring Chris Finch?

[AEnigma]

Wonder what real gm will think about presti for EOY

Previous years he didnt get serious consideration because his demolition and asset seeking moves had still not became anythingh

This year it all came together as what is looking like nba most perfect rebuild in ages so one would assume he gets his due

Hopefully we dont get a situation where he now instead gets dismissee because chet, shai or jalen picks happened in other years

Spwcially because it would signal that long term "organic" team building just cannot win COY as opposed to FA signings or blockbuster trades that give more inmediate same yeat results

How would this ever work?

Should we also nominate Gersson Rosas for drafting Anthony Edwards and hiring Chris Finch?

It would work informally. Obviously Presti cannot be in contention indefinitely, but I would say the season where every move he has made culminated in a 1-seed and #2 league finish after missing the playoffs the prior three years is very much the appropriate time to reward those moves.

[Colbinii]

Wonder what real gm will think about presti for EOY

Previous years he didnt get serious consideration because his demolition and asset seeking moves had still not became anythingh

This year it all came together as what is looking like nba most perfect rebuild in ages so one would assume he gets his due

Hopefully we dont get a situation where he now instead gets dismissee because chet, shai or jalen picks happened in other years

Spwcially because it would signal that long term "organic" team building just cannot win COY as opposed to FA signings or blockbuster trades that give more inmediate same yeat results

How would this ever work?

Should we also nominate Gersson Rosas for drafting Anthony Edwards and hiring Chris Finch?

It would work informally. Obviously Presti cannot be in contention indefinitely, but I would say the season where every move he has made culminated in a 1-seed and #2 league finish after missing the playoffs the prior three years is very much the appropriate time to reward those moves.

I don't disagree but it's interesting.

Does Riley get it in 2011 [Acquiring LeBron AND Bosh] and then in 2012 for putting the right pieces around them, along with hiring Spo back in 2009?

[AEnigma]

How would this ever work?

Should we also nominate Gersson Rosas for drafting Anthony Edwards and hiring Chris Finch?

It would work informally. Obviously Presti cannot be in contention indefinitely, but I would say the season where every move he has made culminated in a 1-seed and #2 league finish after missing the playoffs the prior three years is very much the appropriate time to reward those moves.

I don't disagree but it's interesting.

Does Riley get it in 2011 [Acquiring LeBron AND Bosh] and then in 2012 for putting the right pieces around them, along with hiring Spo back in 2009?

Could, but I think 2013 is a better illustration of what you mean because in 2012 all he really did was sign Shane Battier (which was enough to secure a title, but…). And in 2013 I think he would have a decent case from signing Rashard and Allen while the team won 66 games, 27 consecutive games, and a title, but yeah, probably not my #1 choice on those moves alone.

Now, say someone took the approach that Riley did not deserve it in 2011 because he gutted the team for moderately underwhelming results, well, then it would be a lot easier for that person to reward Riley once he fixed the issue and saw the level of success he wanted.

For what it is worth my retroactive ballot in 2011 probably would have gone to Donn Nelson, but that is because we vote after the playoffs.

[rk2023]

Where I am for POY right now:

Jokic
Luka

Shai/Giannis (somewhat a gap due to their end of year injuries)

Why the gap between Luka and SGA, if I may ask? I genuinely struggle to see the possible reasoning but of course that's not to say that there isn't one, and so I'd really like to hear it.

I don’t think Shai’s off-ball game nor defense adds enough in terms of volume and efficacy to offset the sheer volume and lift Luka brings to the table on offense. I see +/- this year in particular underselling Luka, and I further think Shai benefits from a better spacing & coaching context.

[Doctor MJ]

I see +/- this year in particular underselling Luka, and I further think Shai benefits from a better spacing & coaching context.

Could you elaborate on your thinking here - both your first point and your second?

[Doctor MJ]

Wonder what real gm will think about presti for EOY

Previous years he didnt get serious consideration because his demolition and asset seeking moves had still not became anythingh

This year it all came together as what is looking like nba most perfect rebuild in ages so one would assume he gets his due

Hopefully we dont get a situation where he now instead gets dismissee because chet, shai or jalen picks happened in other years

Spwcially because it would signal that long term "organic" team building just cannot win COY as opposed to FA signings or blockbuster trades that give more inmediate same yeat results

First, to be clear: Presti won EOY in '19-20 (in a tie with Riley).

So yeah, if you vote for Presti now based on directly, if only partially, because of acquiring SGA, you're double counting a thing 4 years after it was first counted, and I'd think everyone would find that problematic.

Let me put a few other things forward because this is worth making sure everyone's thought things through:

- Speaking from a big picture perspective on the nature of EOY, I believe it's an inherently flawed award, because many of the most important basketball decisions can't be properly evaluated for years.

- For this reason, speaking as project runner, what I've basically said is that you can vote however you want, but you have to justify it with moves from the past year. In practice this means that you can essentially put your finger on the scale to give it to guy who you believe deserves it most, but only if he's done stuff in the past year that specifically impresses you.

- Now just speaking about my personal druthers: I don't like giving EOYs for tearing down even when it's the right move and it's executed adroitly. There's probably some aesthetic distaste involved her to be honest, but what's also going on is me being aware of times in the past where stocking up on draft picks hasn't really ever paid off for teams. In a nutshell: You can plausibly execute an outstanding teardown as judged by the draft picks you acquire, without knowing a damn thing about which guys you should be drafting, and so giving the award to teardowns runs the risk of giving the award to a guy later exposed as not understanding the game of basketball very well at all. And such choices make the award lose meaning.

On that last, it might seem weird for me to be talking about essentially voting for an award with an eye toward making the award more meaningful, and that's fine - as I said, that's a personal thing for me, not something I'm looking to force on anyone else - but it really is a natural thing from my perspective.

Why do we give a Rookie of the Year award but not a 2nd/3rd/4th/nth-Year Player of the Year (NYPOY)? It's obviously not because that rookie is typically as good as those more experienced players, so why prioritize reward for a worse player? Because you're trying to get people excited about a player going forward.

And so, for me personally, I voted Joel Embiid over Malcolm Brogdon for ROY back in '16-17. Most didn't of course - Brogdon won both the NBA's ROY and our ROY - and their reasoning was clear: The best ability is availability; miss too much time and we'll given the award to someone else.

That's fine, but I'll just say: If we faced similar dilemmas every year and consistently chose the Brogdons of the NBA for the award, then what would be the value-add for having a ROY rather than other NYPOYs?

[Doctor MJ]

Some views on a pet stat of mine for the regular season. "OnWin" is the number of games with positive +/- a player has.

Top OnWins among MVP candidates (no minutes restriction):

Jokic 63
SGA 56
Tatum 53
Brunson 52
Edwards 51
Giannis 48
Luka 46

Top OnWins among never-all-stars (no minutes restriction):

KCP 59
Porter 58
Naz / Pritchard/ Hauser 54

Note that Naz, Pritchard & Hauser are all 6MOY eligible.

Top OnWins among never-all-stars (24 MP minimum:

KCP 56
White 52
Porter 51
Hart 49
Gordon 48

Top OnWins among ROY candidates (24 MP minimum):

Holmgren 45
Podziemski 35
Jaquez 29
Wemby 25
George / Lively / Miller / Wallace 16

Top OnWins among 2nd Years (24 MP minimum):

Jalen 42
Paolo 40
Keegan 37
Jabari 31
Nembhard 25

Top OnWins among 3rd Year (24 MP minimum):

Herb 42
Franz 38
Reaves 34
Murphy 33
Green 31

Finally, it's more work to figure out OnWin% for everybody, but it was mentioned how good OG Anunoby was by this metric in New York (it was said to be 100%, though by b-r looks like it's 22 out of 23 games), so here's what b-r gives me for OG's OnWin% along with the MVP candidates:

OG in NY - 22 out of 23: 95.7%
OG overall - 36 out of 50: 72.0%

Jokic - 63 out of 79: 79.7%
SGA - 56 out of 75: 74.7%
Tatum - 53 out of 74: 71.6%
Brunson - 52 out of 77: 67.5%
Edwards - 51 out of 79: 64.6%
Giannis - 48 out of 73: 65.8%
Luka - 46 out of 70: 65.7%

[Colbinii]

Some views on a pet stat of mine for the regular season. "OnWin" is the number of games with positive +/- a player has.

Top OnWins among MVP candidates (no minutes restriction):

Jokic 63
SGA 56
Tatum 53
Brunson 52
Edwards 51
Giannis 48
Luka 46

Top OnWins among never-all-stars (no minutes restriction):

KCP 59
Porter 58
Naz / Pritchard/ Hauser 54

Note that Naz, Pritchard & Hauser are all 6MOY eligible.

Top OnWins among never-all-stars (24 MP minimum:

KCP 56
White 52
Porter 51
Hart 49
Gordon 48

Top OnWins among ROY candidates (24 MP minimum):

Holmgren 45
Podziemski 35
Jaquez 29
Wemby 25
George / Lively / Miller / Wallace 16

Top OnWins among 2nd Years (24 MP minimum):

Jalen 42
Paolo 40
Keegan 37
Jabari 31
Nembhard 25

Top OnWins among 3rd Year (24 MP minimum):

Herb 42
Franz 38
Reaves 34
Murphy 33
Green 31

Finally, it's more work to figure out OnWin% for everybody, but it was mentioned how good OG Anunoby was by this metric in New York (it was said to be 100%, though by b-r looks like it's 22 out of 23 games), so here's what b-r gives me for OG's OnWin% along with the MVP candidates:

OG in NY - 22 out of 23: 95.7%
OG overall - 36 out of 50: 72.0%

Jokic - 63 out of 79: 79.7%
SGA - 56 out of 75: 74.7%
Tatum - 53 out of 74: 71.6%
Brunson - 52 out of 77: 67.5%
Edwards - 51 out of 79: 64.6%
Giannis - 48 out of 73: 65.8%
Luka - 46 out of 70: 65.7%

Wemby is at 27 OnWin for a 22-Win team.

For comparison, Chet is at 45 for a 57 win team

Should, hopefully, shine light on the ROY. You have Wemby at 25, but the two games he had < 24 Minutes were blowouts where Wemby was +22 in 19 minutes and +15 in 21 minutes.

[falcolombardi]

Wonder what real gm will think about presti for EOY

Previous years he didnt get serious consideration because his demolition and asset seeking moves had still not became anythingh

This year it all came together as what is looking like nba most perfect rebuild in ages so one would assume he gets his due

Hopefully we dont get a situation where he now instead gets dismissee because chet, shai or jalen picks happened in other years

Spwcially because it would signal that long term "organic" team building just cannot win COY as opposed to FA signings or blockbuster trades that give more inmediate same yeat results

First, to be clear: Presti won EOY in '19-20 (in a tie with Riley).

So yeah, if you vote for Presti now based on directly, if only partially, because of acquiring SGA, you're double counting a thing 4 years after it was first counted, and I'd think everyone would find that problematic.

Let me put a few other things forward because this is worth making sure everyone's thought things through:

- Speaking from a big picture perspective on the nature of EOY, I believe it's an inherently flawed award, because many of the most important basketball decisions can't be properly evaluated for years.

- For this reason, speaking as project runner, what I've basically said is that you can vote however you want, but you have to justify it with moves from the past year. In practice this means that you can essentially put your finger on the scale to give it to guy who you believe deserves it most, but only if he's done stuff in the past year that specifically impresses you.

- Now just speaking about my personal druthers: I don't like giving EOYs for tearing down even when it's the right move and it's executed adroitly. There's probably some aesthetic distaste involved her to be honest, but what's also going on is me being aware of times in the past where stocking up on draft picks hasn't really ever paid off for teams. In a nutshell: You can plausibly execute an outstanding teardown as judged by the draft picks you acquire, without knowing a damn thing about which guys you should be drafting, and so giving the award to teardowns runs the risk of giving the award to a guy later exposed as not understanding the game of basketball very well at all. And such choices make the award lose meaning.

On that last, it might seem weird for me to be talking about essentially voting for an award with an eye toward making the award more meaningful, and that's fine - as I said, that's a personal thing for me, not something I'm looking to force on anyone else - but it really is a natural thing from my perspective.

Why do we give a Rookie of the Year award but not a 2nd/3rd/4th/nth-Year Player of the Year (NYPOY)? It's obviously not because that rookie is typically as good as those more experienced players, so why prioritize reward for a worse player? Because you're trying to get people excited about a player going forward.

And so, for me personally, I voted Joel Embiid over Malcolm Brogdon for ROY back in '16-17. Most didn't of course - Brogdon won both the NBA's ROY and our ROY - and their reasoning was clear: The best ability is availability; miss too much time and we'll given the award to someone else.

That's fine, but I'll just say: If we faced similar dilemmas every year and consistently chose the Brogdons of the NBA for the award, then what would be the value-add for having a ROY rather than other NYPOYs?

First, to be clear: Presti won EOY in '19-20 (in a tie with Riley).

So yeah, if you vote for Presti now based on directly, if only partially, because of acquiring SGA, you're double counting a thing 4 years after it was first counted, and I'd think everyone would find that problematic.

Almost No nba move happens in an absolute vacuum , even marquee free agent signings are eased by previous team success attracting them to a team

But even if we follow this reasoning aquiring chet, jalen and great picks like cason, wiggins, isaiah joe at cheap. The so far home run signing of daigneault, getting chip kelly. Doing all of this while maintaining picks for flexibility going forward. In a way that works long term contracts wise

Is way beyond "presti got shai 5 years ago and that is the only reason okc is in a great spot now"

And those "tearing down and asset collection" moves of 2020/2022 were the ones nobody (undesrtandably) wanted to reward in eoy voting those years

If you are not gonna reward presti (and by extension all teams that organically rebuilt throught draft and development of players rather than big free agency moves) for it when it happened and not gonna reward him for it after the seeds bloomed then when are we gonna reward it?

What you call double counting is literally just rewarding a down-up rebuilt that a team did with its own picks and young players

[Doctor MJ]

Some views on a pet stat of mine for the regular season. "OnWin" is the number of games with positive +/- a player has.

Top OnWins among MVP candidates (no minutes restriction):

Jokic 63
SGA 56
Tatum 53
Brunson 52
Edwards 51
Giannis 48
Luka 46

Top OnWins among never-all-stars (no minutes restriction):

KCP 59
Porter 58
Naz / Pritchard/ Hauser 54

Note that Naz, Pritchard & Hauser are all 6MOY eligible.

Top OnWins among never-all-stars (24 MP minimum:

KCP 56
White 52
Porter 51
Hart 49
Gordon 48

Top OnWins among ROY candidates (24 MP minimum):

Holmgren 45
Podziemski 35
Jaquez 29
Wemby 25
George / Lively / Miller / Wallace 16

Top OnWins among 2nd Years (24 MP minimum):

Jalen 42
Paolo 40
Keegan 37
Jabari 31
Nembhard 25

Top OnWins among 3rd Year (24 MP minimum):

Herb 42
Franz 38
Reaves 34
Murphy 33
Green 31

Finally, it's more work to figure out OnWin% for everybody, but it was mentioned how good OG Anunoby was by this metric in New York (it was said to be 100%, though by b-r looks like it's 22 out of 23 games), so here's what b-r gives me for OG's OnWin% along with the MVP candidates:

OG in NY - 22 out of 23: 95.7%
OG overall - 36 out of 50: 72.0%

Jokic - 63 out of 79: 79.7%
SGA - 56 out of 75: 74.7%
Tatum - 53 out of 74: 71.6%
Brunson - 52 out of 77: 67.5%
Edwards - 51 out of 79: 64.6%
Giannis - 48 out of 73: 65.8%
Luka - 46 out of 70: 65.7%

Wemby is at 27 OnWin for a 22-Win team.

For comparison, Chet is at 45 for a 57 win team

Should, hopefully, shine light on the ROY. You have Wemby at 25, but the two games he had < 24 Minutes were blowouts where Wemby was +22 in 19 minutes and +15 in 21 minutes.

Excellent thing to bring up, but let me remove the minutes limitations because I think that can be misleading when comparing OnWins to team Wins.

Holmgren had 53 on a team that won 57 games.
Poziemski had 49 on a team that won 46 games.
Wallace had 41 on a team that won 57 games.
Jaquez had 39 on a team that won 46 games.
Wembanyama had 27 on a team that won 22 games.
Lively had 27 on a team that won 50 games.
Miller had 18 on a team that won 21 games.

And yeah, I'm not trying to argue against Wemby here. I'll listen to arguments for Chet, but while I had Chet ahead for much of the year, I think I'll end up siding with Wemby.

[ardee]

My top 5 MVP (which is also POY through the RS):

1. Jokic
2. Luka
3. SGA
4. Brunson
5. Giannis

Of course a lot could change now.

[Doctor MJ]

Wonder what real gm will think about presti for EOY

Previous years he didnt get serious consideration because his demolition and asset seeking moves had still not became anythingh

This year it all came together as what is looking like nba most perfect rebuild in ages so one would assume he gets his due

Hopefully we dont get a situation where he now instead gets dismissee because chet, shai or jalen picks happened in other years

Spwcially because it would signal that long term "organic" team building just cannot win COY as opposed to FA signings or blockbuster trades that give more inmediate same yeat results

First, to be clear: Presti won EOY in '19-20 (in a tie with Riley).

So yeah, if you vote for Presti now based on directly, if only partially, because of acquiring SGA, you're double counting a thing 4 years after it was first counted, and I'd think everyone would find that problematic.

Let me put a few other things forward because this is worth making sure everyone's thought things through:

- Speaking from a big picture perspective on the nature of EOY, I believe it's an inherently flawed award, because many of the most important basketball decisions can't be properly evaluated for years.

- For this reason, speaking as project runner, what I've basically said is that you can vote however you want, but you have to justify it with moves from the past year. In practice this means that you can essentially put your finger on the scale to give it to guy who you believe deserves it most, but only if he's done stuff in the past year that specifically impresses you.

- Now just speaking about my personal druthers: I don't like giving EOYs for tearing down even when it's the right move and it's executed adroitly. There's probably some aesthetic distaste involved her to be honest, but what's also going on is me being aware of times in the past where stocking up on draft picks hasn't really ever paid off for teams. In a nutshell: You can plausibly execute an outstanding teardown as judged by the draft picks you acquire, without knowing a damn thing about which guys you should be drafting, and so giving the award to teardowns runs the risk of giving the award to a guy later exposed as not understanding the game of basketball very well at all. And such choices make the award lose meaning.

On that last, it might seem weird for me to be talking about essentially voting for an award with an eye toward making the award more meaningful, and that's fine - as I said, that's a personal thing for me, not something I'm looking to force on anyone else - but it really is a natural thing from my perspective.

Why do we give a Rookie of the Year award but not a 2nd/3rd/4th/nth-Year Player of the Year (NYPOY)? It's obviously not because that rookie is typically as good as those more experienced players, so why prioritize reward for a worse player? Because you're trying to get people excited about a player going forward.

And so, for me personally, I voted Joel Embiid over Malcolm Brogdon for ROY back in '16-17. Most didn't of course - Brogdon won both the NBA's ROY and our ROY - and their reasoning was clear: The best ability is availability; miss too much time and we'll given the award to someone else.

That's fine, but I'll just say: If we faced similar dilemmas every year and consistently chose the Brogdons of the NBA for the award, then what would be the value-add for having a ROY rather than other NYPOYs?

First, to be clear: Presti won EOY in '19-20 (in a tie with Riley).

So yeah, if you vote for Presti now based on directly, if only partially, because of acquiring SGA, you're double counting a thing 4 years after it was first counted, and I'd think everyone would find that problematic.

Almost No nba move happens in an absolute vacuum , even marquee free agent signings are eased by previous team success attracting them to a team

But even if we follow this reasoning aquiring chet, jalen and great picks like cason, wiggins, isaiah joe at cheap. The so far home run signing of daigneault, getting chip kelly. Doing all of this while maintaining picks for flexibility going forward. In a way that works long term contracts wise

Is way beyond "presti got shai 5 years ago and that is the only reason okc is in a great spot now"

And those "tearing down and asset collection" moves of 2020/2022 were the ones nobody (undesrtandably) wanted to reward in eoy voting those years

If you are not gonna reward presti (and by extension all teams that organically rebuilt throught draft and development of players rather than big free agency moves) for it when it happened and not gonna reward him for it after the seeds bloomed then when are we gonna reward it?

What you call double counting is literally just rewarding a down-up rebuilt that a team did with its own picks and young players

Dude, I just responded to a post where you said Presti didn't get serious consideration in the past by pointing out he won our dang award, and you're not even owning up to being wrong about the thing you were focusing on when you began your post.

But look:

1. I've specified "the rules", you can ask me if you have questions for clarification on them, but unless I change the rules, you're expected to follow them.

2. My question for you: Can you find historical precedent in the EOY that indicates that the rules I have specified are not how that NBA's award is done? If you can, please elaborate.

I'll say up front: I do believe that there are times when a guy's EOY candidacy is influenced - positively or negatively - based on whether he's already been "sufficiently honored" in the eyes of the voters (GMs), and so I'm not trying to rigidly insist that you can't do this. But my perception is that those who win EOY do do something in that year that people praise. If you can find an example where you feel this clearly wasn't the case, I'll have some things to reconsider.

All this to say that I think it's important for us to keep with the "spirit" of the awards such as exists in the official awards that inspire them, lest the awards devolve into something utterly alien and meaningless to those who would join us in the future. All we're doing basically is updating things in the wake of the playoffs. That, along with our own inherent distinct individualities in contrast to NBA voter populations, is intended to be the only difference between how these awards play out compared to the official ones.

[eminence]

I don't vote in non-POY races, but I'd see Presti's case this year as a reward for drafting very well recently (I like this being rewarded), vs '20 being executing a good tear down (I don't like this as much, though sometimes options are thin).

8 of the top 10 OKC guys were drafted by them (not SGA/Kenrich), and only Dort was drafted when he won the last award.

All drafted since then:
Chet
Jalen
Giddey
Wallace
Joe
Wiggins
Jaylin

Super impressive to have such a young squad with the 1 seed.

[AEnigma]

Executive Award Wins I would say undeniably required looking at roster moves outside of that one season:

- Angelo Drossos for the 1978 Spurs
- Bob Ferry for the 1979 Bullets
- Stan Kasten for the 1986 and 1987 Hawks!
- Bucky Buckwalter for the 1991 Blazers (unless we are going all in on a trade for seventh man Danny Ainge)

This is to say nothing of the borderline indefensible (by the supposed principle of the award) but theoretically justifiable wins, of which there are several, e.g. Frank Layden apparently being awarded for drafting Thurl Bailey as a fifth starter in 1984. One of my favourites: 2014 R.C. Buford, because he… signed Marco Belinelli in free agency. Compelling stuff.

[OhayoKD]

As much as I think Wemby is better, the results really do not support Wemby ahead of Chet. If we are applying an age curve(i can understand that principle), sure, but without that consideration, I'd say Chet has done considerably more to earn the reward