2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread

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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#21 » by tone wone » Mon Apr 8, 2024 3:49 pm

eminence wrote:I'd have Tatum somewhere from 3rd to 5th on offense only (Jokic/Doncic/then undecided vs current Steph/SGA).

He's a significantly upgraded Paul George on that end (who himself was pretty good at peak - grabbing a #4 POY finish in 2019).
-Worse shooter
-Better rim pressure (and the according foul draw)
-Better passer/ball control/decision maker
-Better off-ball mover/screen setter

On the defensive end, George is certainly quicker and a notably better on ball perimeter defender. Tatum functions as more of a big man, contributing more on the glass and in secondary rim protection.

Devin Booker
Jalen Brunson
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Kawhi Leonard
Giannis Antetokounmpo

All have been better offensively than Tatum this season and in general, except Brunson, are flat-out better offensive players. To say nothing of Embiid whose in another galaxy offensively or even Mitchell who was having a fantastic year offensively before his body betrayed him.

Is Tatum really a better offensive player than Anthony Davis? Haliburton? Steph?
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#22 » by AEnigma » Mon Apr 8, 2024 4:09 pm

eminence wrote:I'd have Tatum somewhere from 3rd to 5th on offense only (Jokic/Doncic/then undecided vs current Steph/SGA).

I cannot take this seriously with all the superstar guards available, all of whom are better passers and ballhandlers and most of whom are also more effective scorers. If you want to argue he wins an offensive competition with Paul George, well, that is a dramatically lower offensive bar than what it should be for a top five offensive engine.

Not even face value multi-year RAPM backs him as a top three guy. He is outside the top ten in O-LEBRON and O-EPM. His availability is usually a point to his favour (and can be used to justify him over at least Embiid), but this year it is nothing special, so it cannot even really be a case of “well we need to disregard Kawhi and Lebron and Durant because they do not play enough.”

The only possible support I see for this is that he is the #1 player in O-DPM, but that evaluation is obviously absurd to the point of being near worthless.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#23 » by Colbinii » Mon Apr 8, 2024 4:19 pm

tone wone wrote:
eminence wrote:I'd have Tatum somewhere from 3rd to 5th on offense only (Jokic/Doncic/then undecided vs current Steph/SGA).

He's a significantly upgraded Paul George on that end (who himself was pretty good at peak - grabbing a #4 POY finish in 2019).
-Worse shooter
-Better rim pressure (and the according foul draw)
-Better passer/ball control/decision maker
-Better off-ball mover/screen setter

On the defensive end, George is certainly quicker and a notably better on ball perimeter defender. Tatum functions as more of a big man, contributing more on the glass and in secondary rim protection.

Devin Booker
Jalen Brunson
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Kawhi Leonard
Giannis Antetokounmpo

All have been better offensively than Tatum this season and in general, except Brunson, are flat-out better offensive players. To say nothing of Embiid whose in another galaxy offensively or even Mitchell who was having a fantastic year offensively before his body betrayed him.

Is Tatum really a better offensive player than Anthony Davis? Haliburton? Steph?


Tatum is significantly better offensively than Anthony Davis.

Haliburton pre-injury was better, but Haliburton simply isn't the same player as he was pre-injury. Maybe he will be next year, but for the year as a whole Haliburton is lagging behind Tatum.

There is a difficulty here in comparing players of different style's and role's. What makes Tatum better than Sabonis offensively? It get's difficult comparing players who are clear Hub's with a heavy gravitational pull of the offense and a 3-level scoring wing like Tatum.

I'll say this: Tatum's skill-set is extremely scalable to other talent on the team. He doesn't hog the paint like Sabonis, allowing for more freedom of offense around him. His touch-time has been trending down over the years and is approaching Kevin Durant's, a player who is the pinnacle of Floor Spacing, 3-level scoring Wing with exceptional scalability and closely rivals Kawhi Leonard's.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#24 » by tone wone » Mon Apr 8, 2024 5:06 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Tatum is significantly better offensively than Anthony Davis.

There is a difficulty here in comparing players of different style's and role's. What makes Tatum better than Sabonis offensively? It get's difficult comparing players who are clear Hub's with a heavy gravitational pull of the offense and a 3-level scoring wing like Tatum.

I'll say this: Tatum's skill-set is extremely scalable to other talent on the team. He doesn't hog the paint like Sabonis, allowing for more freedom of offense around him. His touch-time has been trending down over the years and is approaching Kevin Durant's, a player who is the pinnacle of Floor Spacing, 3-level scoring Wing with exceptional scalability and closely rivals Kawhi Leonard's.

Tatum's not really a 3-level scorer. Never has been. While he's more comfortable setting up at the elbow/wings this season, the actual shooting % is not good. Cant be compared to Leonard and Durant without the exquisite shot chart. Booker compares more favorably to them than Tatum but he's a 6'5 guard.

Honestly, prior to this season I'm not sure he'd qualify as 2-level (3's n rim) scorer. He has improved this year, both as a passer and slasher, but it should be noted that having a full-time stretch 5 with real gravity (despite his actual 3pt %) in Prozingis has made his passing/driving reads very easy.

The sum total of his offense is very Paul George like. A big wing reliant on jumpers who slashes and passes just well enough to be considered "well-rounded" but not good enough that it stands among the elite. Basically if his 3ball gets hot enough he can cosplay as an elite offensive engine but as soon he stops being the greatest pull-up 3pt shooter of all time it becomes obvious he's not on that level.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#25 » by eminence » Mon Apr 8, 2024 5:36 pm

AEnigma wrote:
eminence wrote:I'd have Tatum somewhere from 3rd to 5th on offense only (Jokic/Doncic/then undecided vs current Steph/SGA).

I cannot take this seriously with all the superstar guards available, all of whom are better passers and ballhandlers and most of whom are also more effective scorers. If you want to argue he wins an offensive competition with Paul George, well, that is a dramatically lower offensive bar than what it should be for a top five engine of offence.

Not even face value multi-year RAPM backs him as a top three guy. He is outside the top ten in O-LEBRON and O-EPM. His availability is usually a point to his favour (and can be used to justify him over at least Embiid), but this year it is nothing special, so it cannot even really be a case of “well we need to disregard Kawhi and Lebron and Durant because they do not play enough.”

The only possible support I see for this is that he is the #1 player in O-DPM, but that evaluation is obviously absurd to the point of being near worthless.


I wrote about George because that's who he was compared to. I have a very clear tier gap between the two.

Without names it's tricky, but I have him as a comparable to better passer than plenty of star offensive guards (SGA/Mitchell/Booker among others).

Middling interest in whichever xRAPM is flavor of the month, very little interest in a one half of the court version of any of them (the same extends to the raw versions like APM, they aren't playing 6 on 6 out there). Actually the first version of the game I learned, wish it was still played somewhere, oh well.

Tatum is tied for 12th in minutes played this season. Tracking to be 5 straight seasons top 15 in minutes, 3rd total RS minutes in that period behind Mikal/DeMar. He's an ironman if anyone is.

Being the central guy on the best offense/team in the league (the best absolute offense in history), is certainly a point in his favor.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#26 » by Colbinii » Mon Apr 8, 2024 6:56 pm

eminence wrote:
Being the central guy on the best offense/team in the league (the best absolute offense in history), is certainly a point in his favor.


Central isn't exactly the term I would use to describe Tatum though. Jaylen Brown, for instance, is shooting 48% on mid-range while Tatum is at 39%.

Boston has 5 players between 16%-21% AST%, with no player on the team > 22.

Here are the teams highest AST% / USG%
Tatum: 20.9% / 30.3%
White: 21.6% / 18.9%
Brown: 16.9% / 29.0%
Jrue: 19.5% / 16.3%
Pritchard: 19.4% / 16.6%

The Offense is incredible though. Their Top 9 minutes players all have positive TS+, they rank 1st in 3pAR, 1st in eFG% and 3rd in TOV%.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#27 » by eminence » Mon Apr 8, 2024 8:07 pm

Colbinii wrote:
eminence wrote:
Being the central guy on the best offense/team in the league (the best absolute offense in history), is certainly a point in his favor.


Central isn't exactly the term I would use to describe Tatum though. Jaylen Brown, for instance, is shooting 48% on mid-range while Tatum is at 39%.

Boston has 5 players between 16%-21% AST%, with no player on the team > 22.

Here are the teams highest AST% / USG%
Tatum: 20.9% / 30.3%
White: 21.6% / 18.9%
Brown: 16.9% / 29.0%
Jrue: 19.5% / 16.3%
Pritchard: 19.4% / 16.6%

The Offense is incredible though. Their Top 9 minutes players all have positive TS+, they rank 1st in 3pAR, 1st in eFG% and 3rd in TOV%.


I don't mean to imply he's the most helio player the world has ever seen, but I see some /possession stuff there where he leads the team, and then plays a bunch more possessions than anyone else, overall clearly the most central in Boston. There are more central offensive players in the NBA, but probably fewer than one would guess.

My preferred stat for offensive centrality is frontcourt touches. Touches because I'm interested in overall involvement (and it's as close as it gets, obviously it doesn't capture things like Gobert screens or Steph running around all game), and frontcourt because who dribbles it up isn't that informative. A stat meant more for comparison within in a team than between players across teams.

Boston frontcourt touches
Tatum 2743
Brown 1844
Porzingis 1782
White 1554
Holiday 1382
Pritchard 1252
Horford 1180
Hauser 1048
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#28 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Apr 9, 2024 5:14 am

eminence wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
eminence wrote:
Being the central guy on the best offense/team in the league (the best absolute offense in history), is certainly a point in his favor.


Central isn't exactly the term I would use to describe Tatum though. Jaylen Brown, for instance, is shooting 48% on mid-range while Tatum is at 39%.

Boston has 5 players between 16%-21% AST%, with no player on the team > 22.

Here are the teams highest AST% / USG%
Tatum: 20.9% / 30.3%
White: 21.6% / 18.9%
Brown: 16.9% / 29.0%
Jrue: 19.5% / 16.3%
Pritchard: 19.4% / 16.6%

The Offense is incredible though. Their Top 9 minutes players all have positive TS+, they rank 1st in 3pAR, 1st in eFG% and 3rd in TOV%.


I don't mean to imply he's the most helio player the world has ever seen, but I see some /possession stuff there where he leads the team, and then plays a bunch more possessions than anyone else, overall clearly the most central in Boston. There are more central offensive players in the NBA, but probably fewer than one would guess.

My preferred stat for offensive centrality is frontcourt touches. Touches because I'm interested in overall involvement (and it's as close as it gets, obviously it doesn't capture things like Gobert screens or Steph running around all game), and frontcourt because who dribbles it up isn't that informative. A stat meant more for comparison within in a team than between players across teams.

Boston frontcourt touches
Tatum 2743
Brown 1844
Porzingis 1782
White 1554
Holiday 1382
Pritchard 1252
Horford 1180
Hauser 1048


Good back and forth.

I don't see any way around the fact that the best RS ORtg in the league for the best RS team in the league by far is built more on the foundation of Tatum than anyone else by a significant margin, and that says some pretty great things about what can be done with Tatum as your top offensive player. It's not enough to make me think Tatum has a serious case for best offensive player in the world, but it's enough that I really can't dismiss his offense as anything other than elite.

In the end I think the real question is less about whether Tatum could do more as a helio, and more a matter of how resilient the scheme is in the playoffs. I really do think that the concerns on this front - that definitely go beyond "they haven't done it yet" - are showing up as part of people's "eye test". It's less about Tatum not having X% better personal stats, I think, and more about a certain clunkiness to how it looks at times.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#29 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Apr 9, 2024 5:26 am

I do also want to shout out Derrick White though who I think has had an all-star level season. I'll be considering him for MIP definitely, though really haven't thought through that ballot yet.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#30 » by eminence » Tue Apr 9, 2024 11:19 am

Derrick White deserves all the shout outs, great player.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#31 » by Colbinii » Tue Apr 9, 2024 1:18 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
eminence wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Central isn't exactly the term I would use to describe Tatum though. Jaylen Brown, for instance, is shooting 48% on mid-range while Tatum is at 39%.

Boston has 5 players between 16%-21% AST%, with no player on the team > 22.

Here are the teams highest AST% / USG%
Tatum: 20.9% / 30.3%
White: 21.6% / 18.9%
Brown: 16.9% / 29.0%
Jrue: 19.5% / 16.3%
Pritchard: 19.4% / 16.6%

The Offense is incredible though. Their Top 9 minutes players all have positive TS+, they rank 1st in 3pAR, 1st in eFG% and 3rd in TOV%.


I don't mean to imply he's the most helio player the world has ever seen, but I see some /possession stuff there where he leads the team, and then plays a bunch more possessions than anyone else, overall clearly the most central in Boston. There are more central offensive players in the NBA, but probably fewer than one would guess.

My preferred stat for offensive centrality is frontcourt touches. Touches because I'm interested in overall involvement (and it's as close as it gets, obviously it doesn't capture things like Gobert screens or Steph running around all game), and frontcourt because who dribbles it up isn't that informative. A stat meant more for comparison within in a team than between players across teams.

Boston frontcourt touches
Tatum 2743
Brown 1844
Porzingis 1782
White 1554
Holiday 1382
Pritchard 1252
Horford 1180
Hauser 1048


Good back and forth.

I don't see any way around the fact that the best RS ORtg in the league for the best RS team in the league by far is built more on the foundation of Tatum than anyone else by a significant margin, and that says some pretty great things about what can be done with Tatum as your top offensive player. It's not enough to make me think Tatum has a serious case for best offensive player in the world, but it's enough that I really can't dismiss his offense as anything other than elite.

In the end I think the real question is less about whether Tatum could do more as a helio, and more a matter of how resilient the scheme is in the playoffs. I really do think that the concerns on this front - that definitely go beyond "they haven't done it yet" - are showing up as part of people's "eye test". It's less about Tatum not having X% better personal stats, I think, and more about a certain clunkiness to how it looks at times.


In order to defend Boston, you need to have multiple wings who can get into the bodies of White/Tatum/Brown on the perimeter, suffocate any space they have have and force them to drive by chasing them off the 3P line and then live with their mid-range or paint finishing.

By far the best team we have seen do this is Minnesota, since they have Anthony Edwards, Jaden McDaniels, Nickeil Alexander-Walker and Kyle Anderson as a quad of elite, physical perimeter defenders. Even this strategy isn't perfect but Minnesota then has Rudy Gobert in the paint, which allows those 4 players to breathe on the necks of Boston's players on the perimeter.

Minnesota played Boston twice, both games went into OT, the game with Gobert Boston was held to a 99 Ortg, the game without him Boston posted a 124 Ortg.

Denver also has KCP/Gordon/Watson/Braun as players who can get into the teeth of Boston on the perimeter but more importantly their offense can put up 120-125 Ortg in a series without batting an eye.

The Knicks and Miami have some of the pieces you want [Notably Butler/JJJ/Bam and OG/Hartenstein/Hart] but both lack the depth of defensive wing-talent to slow Boston down in a meaningful way.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#32 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Apr 9, 2024 2:14 pm

eminence wrote:I do not understand why Tatum isn't more appreciated.

Great all around game, monster impact, great team, never misses meaningful time, good playoff success/play.


My guess is he's hurt by the quality of the team around him. Who else plays with 4 2-way starters of that caliber plus has another one as 6th man?

I hate any teammate based arguments, but I'm sure that's the primary reason he gets little legit MVP buzz.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#33 » by Colbinii » Tue Apr 9, 2024 2:17 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
eminence wrote:I do not understand why Tatum isn't more appreciated.

Great all around game, monster impact, great team, never misses meaningful time, good playoff success/play.


My guess is he's hurt by the quality of the team around him. Who else plays with 4 2-way starters of that caliber plus has another one as 6th man?

I hate any teammate based arguments, but I'm sure that's the primary reason he gets little legit MVP buzz.


I think it's because he isn't Helio in the same way SGA/Luka/Jokic/Embiid are.

Tatum plays much more with-in the system than any of these guys, as all aforementioned players are the system.

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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#34 » by Dutchball97 » Tue Apr 9, 2024 3:58 pm

Going into the play-offs my top 5 is:
1. Jokic
2. SGA
3. Luka
4. Giannis
5. Tatum

With them all on contending teams I could see some internal movement but I'd be surprised if multiple of them didn't end up on my POY ballot when all is said and done. If 1 or more of them have a stinker in the post-season though, the main other guys I'm looking at are Brunson, Kawhi, Ant and Embiid.

Brunson and Kawhi have the easiest paths imo as they are the clear best players on their teams, who show consistent elite impact and are on teams who could make some waves in the post-season.

Ant being on a pretty strong contender as well as his incredible play-off showings in a relatively low sample size make him an interesting candidate. Though I do agree with some posters here it could be Gobert as well who ends up the most valuable player of the Wolves this season.

Embiid is a longshot but when he did play, he was arguably the best player in the league. He'd need a finals appearance or at least a 1990 MJ/2009 LeBron-esque conference final run but I can't rule out putting him in my top 5 if I feel like he was the best player in both the regular season and play-offs despite not playing as many games.

LeBron and AD deserve a mention but with them being on a play-in team and neither clearly being the best player on the team they have a tough road ahead of them.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#35 » by Fundamentals21 » Tue Apr 9, 2024 5:08 pm

Player of the Year (POY) - This is usually a classic Jokic-Giannis duel. I think this Bucks team is weak, though the Lillard acquisition made a ton of sense at the time.
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY) - Probably Jokic again. Just beautiful O to watch. Luka is his close rival.
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY) - Gobert is back in the game. AD and Hartenstein are his rivals. Hartenstein really impressed me this season with his stellar D, he isn't ultra talented but when asked to produce he's def. up there.
Rookie of the Year (ROY) - Wemby vs Chet! This was fun to watch. I'd roll Wemby but Chet was a star this season for OKC.
Most Improved Player (MIP) - Jalen Brunson. Dude's killing it on the Knicks.
6th Man of the Year (6MOY) - Naz Reid? I need some more accomplished 6th men here.
Coach of the Year (COY) - Chris Finch. I wasn't a believer at first, but it's his time now.
Executive of the Year (EOY) - Brad Stevens. I criticized him a bit as coach, but he's always been an analytics head.

Tatum's at it again, with an all time Boston team, but producing a championship isn't easy. I think it'll be a big struggle for the C's. Then there's Minny, OKC, Denver. OKC needs some grizzled vets on that team, IMO, and I don't know if ANT is up to the Alpha challenge. Denver looks dangerous, will be curious how the West pans out.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#36 » by Bidofo » Tue Apr 9, 2024 8:43 pm

What Brunson has been doing this year is nothing short of spectacular, especially after Randle's injury. It's been 32 games since, and the Knicks offense has been great whenever he's on the court. He's pretty much doing his best Iverson impersonation...except even better!

The Knicks as currently structured are entirely reliant on their two offensive pieces to generate good shots for everyone. Once Randle went down, Brunson's load increased, as shown in anything you can name (37% USG since the Randle injury, on the season he's 7th in load and 6th in box creation). That's because there is NO ONE else on the team that can reliably generate good shots. And that is clear as day when you watch the Knicks, but bears out quite well in the stats. On the season, 122.7 ORTG when he's on (good for 2nd) and 108.7 when he's off (good for last). They actually look like a bunch of headless chickens out there, it's incredibly painful to watch. An offensive lift of +14 is something you really only see from Jokic...and from what I can tell he's actually the only volume player that exceeds that number.

His case gets better. Those season on/off numbers include games with Randle. Since his injury, the Knicks STILL have a 123 ORTG when Brunson is on and a brutal 105 ORTG when he's off. Keep in mind that in the Luka+Kyrie minutes, the Mavs have... a 122.3 ORTG! Haliburton when he's on the court is at 123.2! Just remarkable. When you see numbers like that, you typically expect collinearity/staggering issues, but the Knicks can't even afford a luxury like that. They've been gutted by injuries, and these minutes are all without Randle and most of them without Anunoby. Look at the most used lineups since Randles injury and how they've played:

Hartenstein, Hart, Brunson, DiVincenzo, Achiuwa - 189 min - 123 ORTG
Hartenstein, Hart, Brunson, DiVincenzo, McBride - 172 min - 142 ORTG
Hart, Brunson, DiVincenzo, Achiuwa, McBride - 78 min - 115 ORTG
Anunoby, Hartenstein, Hart, Brunson, DiVincenzo - 74 min - 119 ORTG

At all times, there are 2 non-shooters on the court, and in the most used lineup there are 3! Your center not being able to shoot is common, 2 non-shooters isn't ideal but teams might be forced to do so sometimes, 3 non-shooters is just a death sentence in todays NBA for the most part (ask the Lakers). You contrast this with the floor spacing that the Celtics provide Tatum, and it's night and day. Literally every meaningful player on that team can shoot, and damn near each one plays defense, it's absurd.

I evoked Iverson earlier, and it's not to say that this is some singular carryjob by Brunson (never liked it when people said it about Iverson either). There's a lot of dirty work being done by the rest of the cast. iHart is the other big catalyst for the offense. You'll notice in the lineup data that the worst combination is the one without him, he provides a ton with his screening, passing, offensive rebounding, and he's worked on his floater off the short roll. Hart's one of the league's best grab-and-go players and has surprised me with his passing this season. When teams trap Brunson near half-court, he's been a great escape valve. Good shooting from DDV and McBride, surprisingly good offensive rebounding from Achiuwa helping the Knicks be the best in the league at that (awesome since he was considered a throwaway in the OG trade). And of course great coaching, Thibs has devised an offense that utilizes Brunson both on and off ball with a focus on offensive rebounding. But Brunson is what makes the engine hum. Very rarely I actually think to myself "man Brunson is really dribbling the air out the ball" and it gives me some Carmelo PTSD, but that's really all the Knicks have, and it STILL is leading to a 123 ORTG. The fact that he can even generate good shots with some of the worst spacing in the league is commendable.

In my mind, Tatum v Brunson on offense is not a serious discussion. The supporting cast quality difference is INSANE yet the results are not. What I find unique about the Celtics this year compared to other title favorites is that they are a buzzsaw no matter who's on the court. Not sure how to verify this, but they might have the record for most rotation players with > +10 onCourt NTRG. Of their top 13 in minutes, 11 (!) of them have an onCourt rating of > +10.5 (!!). The other 2, Brown and Kornet, are at a measly +9.3/+9.2. The Celtics offense drops from 124.2 with Tatum on to 122.2 with him off :crazy: :crazy: To me, Tatum's reasoning has to be more than the minutes-leader getting a disproportionate amount of credit for the perfect, modern, 5-out offense that really any star wing would excel in.

Brunson has some shortcomings too. His height prevents him from being one of the tip-top best playmakers in the league since he can't see over traps. He could be a bit more efficient, and maybe provide some more value offball (though I'm not agreeable on the portability issue, in his last year in Dallas with an inferior Luka and MUCH inferior version of himself they still had a ~+6 offense with both). But those are issues that put him behind Jokic and Luka. And considering he's shown to be a consistent playoff performer (outperformed Tatum offensively last year vs the same opponent :wink: ), he should get strong consideration for at least 3rd in OPOTY by year's end.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#37 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:03 am

Colbinii wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
eminence wrote:I do not understand why Tatum isn't more appreciated.

Great all around game, monster impact, great team, never misses meaningful time, good playoff success/play.


My guess is he's hurt by the quality of the team around him. Who else plays with 4 2-way starters of that caliber plus has another one as 6th man?

I hate any teammate based arguments, but I'm sure that's the primary reason he gets little legit MVP buzz.


I think it's because he isn't Helio in the same way SGA/Luka/Jokic/Embiid are.

Tatum plays much more with-in the system than any of these guys, as all aforementioned players are the system.

As Sheev Palpatine said "I am the Senate"


So, I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but would push back at using the same "Helio" term for both LeBron-types and Jokic-types because I believe that they actually represent opposite extremes of play in terms of the star looking to either control the ball, or pass readily, and by some perspectives this would put a Tatum-type somewhere in between them.

It's not that I can't see a definition for "heliocentric" where Jokic qualifies - I think the celestial analogy would be more apt for a pivot- passing model, but I think it's really significant to understand that the fact that Jokic can put up numbers like he does is actually a rebuttal to the idea that a star has to be ready to lose credit in order to not just hog the ball.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#38 » by Doctor MJ » Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:12 am

Bidofo wrote:What Brunson has been doing this year is nothing short of spectacular, especially after Randle's injury. It's been 32 games since, and the Knicks offense has been great whenever he's on the court. He's pretty much doing his best Iverson impersonation...except even better!

The Knicks as currently structured are entirely reliant on their two offensive pieces to generate good shots for everyone. Once Randle went down, Brunson's load increased, as shown in anything you can name (37% USG since the Randle injury, on the season he's 7th in load and 6th in box creation). That's because there is NO ONE else on the team that can reliably generate good shots. And that is clear as day when you watch the Knicks, but bears out quite well in the stats. On the season, 122.7 ORTG when he's on (good for 2nd) and 108.7 when he's off (good for last). They actually look like a bunch of headless chickens out there, it's incredibly painful to watch. An offensive lift of +14 is something you really only see from Jokic...and from what I can tell he's actually the only volume player that exceeds that number.

His case gets better. Those season on/off numbers include games with Randle. Since his injury, the Knicks STILL have a 123 ORTG when Brunson is on and a brutal 105 ORTG when he's off. Keep in mind that in the Luka+Kyrie minutes, the Mavs have... a 122.3 ORTG! Haliburton when he's on the court is at 123.2! Just remarkable. When you see numbers like that, you typically expect collinearity/staggering issues, but the Knicks can't even afford a luxury like that. They've been gutted by injuries, and these minutes are all without Randle and most of them without Anunoby. Look at the most used lineups since Randles injury and how they've played:

Hartenstein, Hart, Brunson, DiVincenzo, Achiuwa - 189 min - 123 ORTG
Hartenstein, Hart, Brunson, DiVincenzo, McBride - 172 min - 142 ORTG
Hart, Brunson, DiVincenzo, Achiuwa, McBride - 78 min - 115 ORTG
Anunoby, Hartenstein, Hart, Brunson, DiVincenzo - 74 min - 119 ORTG

At all times, there are 2 non-shooters on the court, and in the most used lineup there are 3! Your center not being able to shoot is common, 2 non-shooters isn't ideal but teams might be forced to do so sometimes, 3 non-shooters is just a death sentence in todays NBA for the most part (ask the Lakers). You contrast this with the floor spacing that the Celtics provide Tatum, and it's night and day. Literally every meaningful player on that team can shoot, and damn near each one plays defense, it's absurd.

I evoked Iverson earlier, and it's not to say that this is some singular carryjob by Brunson (never liked it when people said it about Iverson either). There's a lot of dirty work being done by the rest of the cast. iHart is the other big catalyst for the offense. You'll notice in the lineup data that the worst combination is the one without him, he provides a ton with his screening, passing, offensive rebounding, and he's worked on his floater off the short roll. Hart's one of the league's best grab-and-go players and has surprised me with his passing this season. When teams trap Brunson near half-court, he's been a great escape valve. Good shooting from DDV and McBride, surprisingly good offensive rebounding from Achiuwa helping the Knicks be the best in the league at that (awesome since he was considered a throwaway in the OG trade). And of course great coaching, Thibs has devised an offense that utilizes Brunson both on and off ball with a focus on offensive rebounding. But Brunson is what makes the engine hum. Very rarely I actually think to myself "man Brunson is really dribbling the air out the ball" and it gives me some Carmelo PTSD, but that's really all the Knicks have, and it STILL is leading to a 123 ORTG. The fact that he can even generate good shots with some of the worst spacing in the league is commendable.

In my mind, Tatum v Brunson on offense is not a serious discussion. The supporting cast quality difference is INSANE yet the results are not. What I find unique about the Celtics this year compared to other title favorites is that they are a buzzsaw no matter who's on the court. Not sure how to verify this, but they might have the record for most rotation players with > +10 onCourt NTRG. Of their top 13 in minutes, 11 (!) of them have an onCourt rating of > +10.5 (!!). The other 2, Brown and Kornet, are at a measly +9.3/+9.2. The Celtics offense drops from 124.2 with Tatum on to 122.2 with him off :crazy: :crazy: To me, Tatum's reasoning has to be more than the minutes-leader getting a disproportionate amount of credit for the perfect, modern, 5-out offense that really any star wing would excel in.

Brunson has some shortcomings too. His height prevents him from being one of the tip-top best playmakers in the league since he can't see over traps. He could be a bit more efficient, and maybe provide some more value offball (though I'm not agreeable on the portability issue, in his last year in Dallas with an inferior Luka and MUCH inferior version of himself they still had a ~+6 offense with both). But those are issues that put him behind Jokic and Luka. And considering he's shown to be a consistent playoff performer (outperformed Tatum offensively last year vs the same opponent :wink: ), he should get strong consideration for at least 3rd in OPOTY by year's end.


I appreciate the post Bidofo. I hadn't seen such a thorough, yet concise, layout of Brunson's scoreboard data.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#39 » by Colbinii » Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:33 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
My guess is he's hurt by the quality of the team around him. Who else plays with 4 2-way starters of that caliber plus has another one as 6th man?

I hate any teammate based arguments, but I'm sure that's the primary reason he gets little legit MVP buzz.


I think it's because he isn't Helio in the same way SGA/Luka/Jokic/Embiid are.

Tatum plays much more with-in the system than any of these guys, as all aforementioned players are the system.

As Sheev Palpatine said "I am the Senate"


So, I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but would push back at using the same "Helio" term for both LeBron-types and Jokic-types because I believe that they actually represent opposite extremes of play in terms of the star looking to either control the ball, or pass readily, and by some perspectives this would put a Tatum-type somewhere in between them.


I wouldn't put LeBron-types and Jokic-types as the two extremes.

I would put Harden-types and Jokic-types as the two extremes.

It's not that I can't see a definition for "heliocentric" where Jokic qualifies - I think the celestial analogy would be more apt for a pivot- passing model, but I think it's really significant to understand that the fact that Jokic can put up numbers like he does is actually a rebuttal to the idea that a star has to be ready to lose credit in order to not just hog the ball.


I'm not really understanding this part.

The entire Denver Nuggets offense is built on Jokic's ability to read-and-react to the defense in nano-seconds. This either involves Jokic quickly getting the ball into the hands of the other 4 players on the court at the correct time, or running spread P&R game with Murray where Jokic is dictating the action while Murray feeds off of Jokic's brilliance.
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Re: 2023-24 RealGM All-Season Awards Discussion Thread 

Post#40 » by tone wone » Wed Apr 10, 2024 12:45 am

Helio-centric is basically a slur now :lol:
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I don’t think LeBron was as good a point guard as Mo Williams for the point guard play not counting the scoring threat. In other words in a non shooting Rondo like role Mo Williams would be better than LeBron.

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