Better 1 Year Peak: Steve Nash or James Harden

[eminence]

For being primary ballhandlers known for monopolizing decision making, they really play about as differently as possible imo.

[f4p]

The key thing that separates the two are the playoffs where Nash got consistently better by a good amount and Harden gets consistently worse. A big reason being that Nash never relied on a soft whistle and is one of the greatest on-ball shot creators that we’ve ever seen.

what are you talking about? nash absolutely did not get consistently better, much less by a good amount. their dropoffs are basically identical. in this thread, the nash of people's imagination is certainly better than harden. in reality, that's not reality.

[Peregrine01]

Just looking at basic numbers in the playoffs:

Nash in his MVP years from 05-07:

05: 24/11/5 on 60% TS
06: 20/10/4 on 62% TS
07: 19/13/3 on 58% TS

And this when league TS% was 53%

Harden in his MVP years from 17-19:

17: 29/9/6 on 58% TS
18: 29/7/5 on 55% TS
19: 32/7/7 on 57% TS

When league TS% was 56%

So Nash ups his scoring production quite dramatically while retaining efficiency and his playmaking creation while Harden sees his scoring volume drop, his playmaking drop and his efficiency tank.

[NBA4Lyfe]

unless all of you here are also willing to say steve nash had a better peak than stephen curry ( lol yall wont)

then this should be the last post of this thread

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[Doctor MJ]

unless all of you here are also willing to say steve nash had a better peak than stephen curry ( lol yall wont)

then this should be the last post of this thread

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Curry vs Nash is a legit debate around here fyi.

[f4p]

Just looking at basic numbers in the playoffs:

Nash in his MVP years from 05-07:

05: 24/11/5 on 60% TS
06: 20/10/4 on 62% TS
07: 19/13/3 on 58% TS

And this when league TS% was 53%

Harden in his MVP years from 17-19:

17: 29/9/6 on 58% TS
18: 29/7/5 on 55% TS
19: 32/7/7 on 57% TS

When league TS% was 56%

So Nash ups his scoring production quite dramatically while retaining efficiency and his playmaking creation while Harden sees his scoring volume drop, his playmaking drop and his efficiency tank.

something tells me your comment was more of a career-long "harden always sucks, nash is always great in the playoffs" comment but we can just look at the 3 years (since it's a peak thread), with the obvious switch out of 2020 harden for 2017 harden, a much better year.

Regular Season vs Playoffs

PER
Nash - 23.0 vs 22.2 for -0.8
Harden - 29.9 vs 25.8 for -4.1

TS%
Nash - 63.1% vs 60.2% for -2.9%
Harden - 62.0% vs 57.7% for -4.3%

WS48
Nash - 0.214 vs 0.160 for -0.054 (-25.3%)
Harden - 0.265 vs 0.197 for -0.068 (-25.7%)

BPM
Nash - 5.2 vs 4.4 for -0.8 (-15.4%)
Harden - 10.2 vs 8.5 for -1.7 (-16.7%)

On/Off
Nash - 11.8 vs 9.8 for -2
Harden - 6.6 vs 13.3 for +6.7

So declines across the board for both of them except for one thing, harden's on/off, which almost doubles from the regular season. biggest point in nash's favor is PER, which i'm guessing was your least favorite of these numbers before i wrote this post. BPM and WS48 drops are practically identical. but unlike the myth, harden seems to go up in impact in the playoffs. weird how only his production drop is ever noted by any detractors while everyone else is allowed to be lauded for impact numbers. nash slightly declines but mostly holds on.

a big PER advantage in nash's favor and big impact advantage in harden's, with similar other drops. seems pretty even. with the obvious note that even harden's decreased playoff WS48 is basically equal to nash's regular season WS48, his decreased playoff PER is way above nash's regular season PER and his decreased playoff BPM is 60% higher than nash's regular season BPM and basically doubles his playoff BPM.

and it's not like nash's teams were stopped by tougher teams than the KD warriors, the KD warriors again, and the Lebron/AD lakers.

[Primedeion]

Nash has to be the most overrated player OAT. He was nowhere near peak Harden.

[Rishkar]

unless all of you here are also willing to say steve nash had a better peak than stephen curry ( lol yall wont)

then this should be the last post of this thread

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I have long held that Nash peaked higher than Curry

[MiamiBulls]

Steve Nash.

Harden is a classic case of extreme heliocentric basketball gone wrong. Harden simply isn't a good enough passer or playoff scorer to justify his extreme play style.

2018 Playoffs

Houston Rockets Playoff Offense(Against Defense Opponents) +2 Ortg

Harden(per 75): 29.4 PPG 7 APG on -0.3% rTS(Against Defense Opponents)

A large reason for why the Rockets' Team Offense were so middling in the Playoffs was because of Harden's excessive offensive production taking a noticeable dip in the Playoffs

Box Score derived Metrics oversell Harden's impact quite a bit. More Offensive Production does not equate to being a better basketball player.

[eminence]

And I'd go Nash very narrowly, as my 5th/6th guard peaks of the 21st century. In the 2nd tier with Kobe/CP3, half a step behind Curry/Wade.

[NBA4Lyfe]

Steve Nash.

Harden is a classic case of extreme heliocentric basketball gone wrong. Harden simply isn't a good enough passer or playoff scorer to justify his extreme play style.

2018 Playoffs

Houston Rockets Playoff Offense(Against Defense Opponents) +2 Ortg

Harden(per 75): 29.4 PPG 7 APG on -0.3% rTS(Against Defense Opponents)

A large reason for why the Rockets' Team Offense were so middling in the Playoffs was because of Harden's excessive offensive production taking a noticeable dip in the Playoffs

Box Score derived Metrics oversell Harden's impact quite a bit. More Offensive Production does not equate to being a better basketball player.

their is no stat that has nash as a better player than prime harden

[rk2023]

As soon as I saw who the last post was by, I knew exactly what to expect

[Cavsfansince84]

I think they are both better in different situations. If you have a good big to be set up along with decent offensive players Nash is going to be slightly better I think. If you need more scoring or a hard carry job to 50+ wins Harden is probably better though this is also era relative. I don't think Harden could use his style pre 2014 and have it work the same way.

[OhayoKD]

unless all of you here are also willing to say steve nash had a better peak than stephen curry ( lol yall wont)

then this should be the last post of this thread

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Why are you only posting the offensive component

unless all of you here are also willing to say steve nash had a better peak than stephen curry ( lol yall wont)

then this should be the last post of this thread

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Curry vs Nash is a legit debate around here fyi.

I've never seen someone argue nash's peak was as good or better since i've been here outside of an offense only comparison.

[NBA4Lyfe]

unless all of you here are also willing to say steve nash had a better peak than stephen curry ( lol yall wont)

then this should be the last post of this thread

once again took me less than 5 minutes to find on x

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Why are you only posting the offensive component

unless all of you here are also willing to say steve nash had a better peak than stephen curry ( lol yall wont)

then this should be the last post of this thread

once again took me less than 5 minutes to find on x

Read on Twitter

Curry vs Nash is a legit debate around here fyi.

I've never seen someone argue nash's peak was as good or better since i've been here outside of an offense only comparison.

because nash and harden are primarly offensive minded players... pretty self explanatory

[OhayoKD]

unless all of you here are also willing to say steve nash had a better peak than stephen curry ( lol yall wont)

then this should be the last post of this thread

once again took me less than 5 minutes to find on x

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Why are you only posting the offensive component

Curry vs Nash is a legit debate around here fyi.

I've never seen someone argue nash's peak was as good or better since i've been here outside of an offense only comparison.

because nash and harden are primarly offensive minded players... pretty self explanatory

and? them being offensive players doesn't make it irrelevant they're negatives defensively. if you're going to cherrypick a formula, at least post the full thing. If you want to argue the defensive component is off or whatever, that's seperate.

[NBA4Lyfe]

Why are you only posting the offensive component

I've never seen someone argue nash's peak was as good or better since i've been here outside of an offense only comparison.

because nash and harden are primarly offensive minded players... pretty self explanatory

and? them being offensive players doesn't make it irrelevant they're negatives defensively. if you're going to cherrypick a formula, at least post the full thing. If you want to argue the defensive component is off or whatever, that's seperate.

ok how about you show me a metric where steve nash is better than prime harden in anything

[rk2023]

because nash and harden are primarly offensive minded players... pretty self explanatory

and? them being offensive players doesn't make it irrelevant they're negatives defensively. if you're going to cherrypick a formula, at least post the full thing. If you want to argue the defensive component is off or whatever, that's seperate.

ok how about you show me a metric where steve nash is better than prime harden in anything

• Prime O-RAPM
• Box Creation
• Passer Rating
• Thinking Basketball OBPM

That doesn’t even get into eye-test

[rk2023]

And I'd go Nash very narrowly, as my 5th/6th guard peaks of the 21st century. In the 2nd tier with Kobe/CP3, half a step behind Curry/Wade.

Am curious the rationale to have Wade more so lumped in with Curry than the pack?

This century I would go with:

Curry
(2020 Bron) Kobe Wade
Nash
CP3, Harden

Luka is a TBD, but I very well could see him getting by Nash at the end of this season.

[NBA4Lyfe]

and? them being offensive players doesn't make it irrelevant they're negatives defensively. if you're going to cherrypick a formula, at least post the full thing. If you want to argue the defensive component is off or whatever, that's seperate.

ok how about you show me a metric where steve nash is better than prime harden in anything

• Prime O-RAPM
• Box Creation
• Passer Rating
• Thinking Basketball OBPM

That doesn’t even get into eye-test

rapm is no longer used, too volatile/inconsistent of a metric same as rpm

what seasons of nashs box creation is better than prime harden lol

thinking basketball is biased and a notorious harden hater. ben taylor has been called out for being biased towards players with huge fanbases like iverson to get funding for his overrated website lol. ben should have stopped being taken seriously when he alledged that harden isn’t better than wade because wade was a “better portable” player in comparison to harden when all harden has done since leaving houston is produce all nba level szns.( not hardens fault the media hates him) so harden is left without all-nba/ all-star honors


harden can historically produce top 10-15 level impact with a lower usage rate and be borderline top 3 player in the league with a high usage rate. ben taylor is hater