RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #93 (Billy Cunningham)

[Doctor MJ]

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. Nomination vote now works the same way.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:

AEnigma
Ambrose
ceilng raiser
ceoofkobefans
Clyde Frazier
Colbinii
cupcakesnake
Doctor MJ
Dooley
DQuinn1575
Dr Positivity
DraymondGold
Dutchball97
f4p
falcolombardi
Fundamentals21
Gibson22
HeartBreakKid
homecourtloss
iggymcfrack
LA Bird
JimmyFromNz
Joao Saraiva
lessthanjake
Lou Fan
Moonbeam
Narigo
OhayoKD
OldSchoolNoBull
penbeast0
Rishkar
rk2023
Samurai
ShaqAttac
Taj FTW
Tim Lehrbach
trelos6
trex_8063
ty 4191
WintaSoldier1
ZeppelinPage

Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Billy Cunningham


Bob Davies


Luka Doncic


Cliff Hagan


Jayson Tatum



As requested, here's the current list so far along with the historical spreadsheet of previous projects:

Current List
Historical Spreadsheet

[AEnigma]

VOTE: Billy Cunningham
Alternate: Bob Davies
NOMINATE: Gus Williams
AltNom: Dominique Wilkins

Hold Gus in high regard for his excellent postseason elevation, his strong impact profile, and his general trend of success. On one of the old projects, Ronnymac mentioned that the 1976 Warriors had an outlier opponent turnover percentage coinciding with rookie Gus’s emergence as a McMillan-esque bench disrupter. Couple that with the Warriors losing narrowly once Gus was unable to play, and although that rookie season ends up not worth much in a CORP sense, I appreciate the signal of his ability to affect the game early on and at reduced minutes.

To me he was at his peak the fifth best (not most accomplished) guard before the playmaker boom of the late 1980s. Dynamic in transition, flexible as either a lead creator or a dedicated scorer, and defensively feisty without being irresponsible. Lack of longevity will be a non-starter for many, but I encourage those more forgiving of that to give him serious consideration.

[penbeast0]

vote Jayson Tatum Main man for the last 5+ years on one of the most consistently competitive teams in the modern era.


alt Luka Doncic Very iffy this one and I may go back and change it. In here pretty much for stats alone as Dallas hasn't been that impressive in his tenure. And, the current era is one of stat inflation for stars so I take modern monster stat lines with a bit of a grain of salt. But, his are indeed monster stats and I am consciously trying to give more modern players a bit more leeway as I think I naturally lean to 20th century players from when I was younger.


Nomination: Mel Daniels: Best player on a multiple championship team and a 2 time ABA MVP. It was a weak league but probably stronger than the one Bob Davies excelled in.

Most similar modern player would be Alonzo Mourning with better rebounding but without the great shotblocking. Both became greats through sheer aggression and a willingness to fight you every inch of every possession.

Removing my alt nomination as I need to marinate some of the arguments I have read that resonated.

[eminence]

Hold Gus in high regard for his excellent postseason elevation, his strong impact profile, and his general trend of success. On one of the old projects, Ronnymac mentioned that the 1976 Warriors had an outlier opponent turnover percentage coinciding with rookie Gus’s emergence as a McMillan-esque bench disrupter. Couple that with the Warriors losing narrowly once Gus was unable to play, and although that rookie season ends up not worth much in a CORP sense, I appreciate the signal of his ability to affect the game early on and at reduced minutes.

To me he was at his peak the fifth best (not most accomplished) guard before the playmaker boom of the late 1980s. Dynamic in transition, flexible as either a lead creator or a dedicated scorer, and defensively feisty without being irresponsible. Lack of longevity will be a non-starter for many, but I encourage those more forgiving of that to give him serious consideration.

Curious about Gus as the #5 guard pre-playmaker boom, do you mean in his era or through history until then? Either way would like to hear the 4 above and anybody you see as close to him below.

[AEnigma]

Hold Gus in high regard for his excellent postseason elevation, his strong impact profile, and his general trend of success. On one of the old projects, Ronnymac mentioned that the 1976 Warriors had an outlier opponent turnover percentage coinciding with rookie Gus’s emergence as a McMillan-esque bench disrupter. Couple that with the Warriors losing narrowly once Gus was unable to play, and although that rookie season ends up not worth much in a CORP sense, I appreciate the signal of his ability to affect the game early on and at reduced minutes.

To me he was at his peak the fifth best (not most accomplished) guard before the playmaker boom of the late 1980s. Dynamic in transition, flexible as either a lead creator or a dedicated scorer, and defensively feisty without being irresponsible. Lack of longevity will be a non-starter for many, but I encourage those more forgiving of that to give him serious consideration.

Curious about Gus as the #5 guard pre-playmaker boom, do you mean in his era or through history until then? Either way would like to hear the 4 above and anybody you see as close to him below.

Through history; in-era would be pretty sad haha.

1. Magic (drafted 1979)
2. Oscar (drafted 1960)
3. West (drafted 1960)
4. Frazier (drafted 1967)

Isiah is drafted in 1981 and Stockton is drafted in 1984, with Isiah truly breaking out in 1984 (although was at least approximate all-star level in 1983) and Stockton breaking out in 1988. Cousy and Davies were obviously more accomplished and stood out more relative to their competition but I do not think were better at the sport in any absolute sense.

Paul Westphal is extremely close to Gus for peaks and on balance outperformed him in the 1979 conference finals, but I prefer Gus’s 1980/82 seasons to Westphal’s 1979, and in general I think Westphal was shakier in the postseason. I have always liked Richie Guerin, Lenny Wilkens, and Archie Clark, but none of them are up to par for a peak. Dave Bing is worse. Earl Monroe and World B. Free are not good enough passers for me; throw Charlie Scott in there too if you want, although I put him a bit below those two. Pistol’s playoff sample underwhelmed. Tiny certainly has an eye-popping regular season, but I judge more based on the playoffs, where he only has one (mediocre) series in his prime. James Silas was injured in his peak season, so I similarly struggle to judge his playoff level. Warren Jabali film is minimal, especially in the postseason. Skeptical of the rest of the ABA star guards.

[Samurai]

Repeating my vote from previous round:

Vote for #93: Billy Cunningham. Excellent peak but injuries cut his career short. But his peak was outstanding: MVP (ABA), three-time All NBA First Team, one All ABA First Team, and one All NBA Second Team. Very good rebounder with elite hops (hence his nickname of the Kangaroo Kid), very good passer and solid defender with excellent bbIQ. Career 21.2 point/game scorer. Biggest knock outside of longevity is that he wasn't a good dribbler. But he always played with heart and tenacity with a non-stop motor.

Alternate vote: Jayson Tatum. My biggest reservation is his lack of longevity relative to the other nominees. But his peak/prime has been so strong that I favor him over the other choices. All NBA First Team the past two seasons and on the third team in 20. Dynamic scorer. Not an elite defender but he isn't a poor one either. Just needs better longevity to move up the list for me.

Nomination: Jerry Lucas. No I don't expect Luke to get much support as he didn't make the top 100 the last time either. But he's been a personal favorite of mine since I went to his summer camp so this is a personal bias vote for me. Outstanding shooter who shot for a very high percentage in his era, especially notable since he typically shot from farther out than most anyone else at that time. Twice led the league in TS% with eight total finishes in the top 20. A poor defender on the wing due to his lack of foot speed, he was a solid low post defender due to his strength and positioning, although at only 6-8 he could not stop taller elites like Wilt or Kareem. Seven finishes in the top 20 in DWS and eight times for OWS, he was named All NBA five times (3 first teams and 2 second teams). An elite rebounder, although he was a noted stat padder, he spent hours in the gym studying flight patterns and angles of shots to determine where a potential rebound is most likely to fall and used this uncanny positioning and strength to offset his lack of hops. Also a very good passer for a big in that era.

Alternate nomination: Walt Bellamy. While I was never a big fan of his, I also admit that I only saw him play in the latter (post-prime) half of his career. Had the impression that he was kind of an 'empty stats' guy who put up big numbers that didn't necessarily translate into big impact. His WOWY isn't too impressive and he didn't seem to raise his game in the playoffs, although he didn't have any playoff appearances during his peak years. But he was a strong scorer who shot a high percentage for his era, finishing in the top 10 in TS% nine times. Was a good (but not elite) rebounder with seven top 10 finishes in reb/game. Excellent WS numbers with seven different seasons of 10+ WS (more than any of our current nominees), including a 16 WS rookie year.

[falcolombardi]

Vote - luka doncic

Easily the best overall and playoffs player in this list of player, 5 years of low end to strong mvp level performance~ as a league top 5 player is long enough to be the bulk of a lot of (selected way, way earlier) players primes as stars on a pure longevity basis, and the added value of this kind of player to compete for titles is huge compared to a longer career all nba to all star level guy

His ease to score and playmaking at will doesnt get enough appreciation, but unlike someone like harden his game has been more resilient when put to test

Alt vote- jayson tatum

Strong 2 way wing with good scoring and playmaking, not quite a ideal first option albeit would be an absurd and fairly portable second star in a contender. I have some reservations about if he is the kind of guy who can take a team over the top to a ring as "the man" even in ideal circunstances and this season in a fairly stacked with all star talent team will put that to test since t here is like no better or more stacked team you could make where tatum is still your cleae cut best player

Nomination-

Gus williams, best player on a fairly talented team that won 1 ring and went to 2 finals and with strong playoffs resilience is a surprisingly similar profile to isiah thomas who went in like 40 spots ago or whatever it was

His level of play seems to have been high enough to warrant more love than he usually gets

Alt nomination- marc gasol
Dont have anyone i am particularly anxious to get in, but as a long time fan of marc play i wanted to get him in the convo

Very similar profile to a title team as the recently inducted al horford but with better peak level of play thanks to stronger defense, prolly a better passer too which are more translatable skills for a second star than horford ok iso scoring (albeit marc could score too)
Is not a coincidence the 19 raptors took a leap into some serious scary tier when they added him

[eminence]

Hold Gus in high regard for his excellent postseason elevation, his strong impact profile, and his general trend of success. On one of the old projects, Ronnymac mentioned that the 1976 Warriors had an outlier opponent turnover percentage coinciding with rookie Gus’s emergence as a McMillan-esque bench disrupter. Couple that with the Warriors losing narrowly once Gus was unable to play, and although that rookie season ends up not worth much in a CORP sense, I appreciate the signal of his ability to affect the game early on and at reduced minutes.

To me he was at his peak the fifth best (not most accomplished) guard before the playmaker boom of the late 1980s. Dynamic in transition, flexible as either a lead creator or a dedicated scorer, and defensively feisty without being irresponsible. Lack of longevity will be a non-starter for many, but I encourage those more forgiving of that to give him serious consideration.

Curious about Gus as the #5 guard pre-playmaker boom, do you mean in his era or through history until then? Either way would like to hear the 4 above and anybody you see as close to him below.

Through history; in-era would be pretty sad haha.

1. Magic (drafted 1979)
2. Oscar (drafted 1960)
3. West (drafted 1960)
4. Frazier (drafted 1967)

Isiah is drafted in 1981 and Stockton is drafted in 1984, with Isiah truly breaking out in 1984 (although was at least approximate all-star level in 1983) and Stockton breaking out in 1988. Cousy and Davies were obviously more accomplished and stood out more relative to their competition but I do not think were better at the sport in any absolute sense.

Paul Westphal is extremely close to Gus for peaks and on balance outperformed him in the 1979 conference finals, but I prefer Gus’s 1980/82 seasons to Westphal’s 1979, and in general I think Westphal was shakier in the postseason. I have always liked Richie Guerin, Lenny Wilkens, and Archie Clark, but none of them are up to par for a peak. Dave Bing is worse. Earl Monroe and World B. Free are not good enough passers for me; throw Charlie Scott in there too if you want, although I put him a bit below those two. Pistol’s playoff sample underwhelmed. Tiny certainly has an eye-popping regular season, but I judge more based on the playoffs, where he only has one (mediocre) series in his prime. James Silas was injured in his peak season, so I similarly struggle to judge his playoff level. Warren Jabali film is minimal, especially in the postseason. Skeptical of the rest of the ABA star guards.

#5 in era isn't impossible depending on how broad 'era' and 'guard' are, but I suspected somebody wouldn't be voting for him with that view.

Presuming Gervin is in a different category (wing scorer or some such), looks pretty reasonable to me. I probably side with the Bobs, but reasonable. Think I agree with him over all the other guys listed, Tiny damn tough to judge. Give DJ a shout, Jo Jo as well.

[f4p]

If he doesn't make it in before, it feels like Hagan should get to be #100 just to not suffer the indignity of being nominated for like half the project and not making it. Especially as a probable Finals MVP. Of course I haven't been voting for him either.

[f4p]

Vote: Luka Doncic

Has possibly the 3 best playoff series of anybody in the nomination group (if I scale down the 1958 Finals for era concerns), and probably of almost everybody in the last 20 spots. He's just another tier up from Tatum in the playoffs and there isn't enough of a longevity difference, especially since Tatum's first couple of years weren't anything to write home about. Concerns about his impact but I didn't think those Clippers series should have gone as long as they did (and Kawhi needed an amazing Game 7 to counter Luka's Game 7) and his punking of the Suns was the kind of thing that you hardly see outside of the all-time Top 10.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Not happy to see both Tatum and Luka on the ballot - despite being a fan of both - when there are still so many other more accomplished names out there.

Particularly since a number of the people who have voted them onto the ballot are voters who have not been voting or participating regularly for awhile but showed up to put them through.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Nomination 1: Chris Bosh
Nomination 2: James Worthy

My mind is pretty open here, but of the players getting attention right now, I'm inclined to go with Bosh. There's no doubt that he was a legit B-list alpha, and I was extremely impressed by what he transformed himself into which enabled the Heatles to actually be something close to what they thought they could be.

I'll put Big Game James in there in the 2nd slot again. In comparison to guys like Gus Williams or Jerry Lucas, I really don't think it's close. Worthy was an exceptional player who stood out most against the strongest playoff competition.

I would encourage you to reconsider this going forward.

Bosh was an alpha for seven years in Toronto during which he accomplished virtually nothing, winning zero playoff series and having a positive SRS only twice. That's not all his fault of course, but it's hard to ignore. He has a decent-to-good impact signal with Toronto's numbers after he left for Miami, but I don't know if it's enough. And in Miami he was never more than #3.

First WRT to Worthy:

Worthy in playoffs:
21.1ppg/5.2rpg/3.2apg on 54.4% FG in 37mpg
28.1p/6.9r/4.3a(vs 2.8 to) per 100
57.8% TS(+4.1 over RS career league average)
over 143 games

Bosh in playoffs:
16.7ppg/7.6rpg/1.3apg on 47.3% FG in 35.2mpg
24.4p/11.7r/2.1a(vs 2.2 to) per 100
55.3% TS(+1.6 over RS career league average)
over 89 games

Worthy has measurable volume and efficiency advantages as a scorer as well as more assists with a better a:t ratio. Maybe you think Bosh's defense/rebounding make up for this, but I don't know about that.

Also, I don't think Lucas has a particularly strong argument, but I think you're underselling Gus. I did a big post in an earlier thread where I painstakingly illustrated how he consistently had positive impact throughout his career. But also, look at his 1979 playoff run to the championship:

vs Lakers: 30.8/4.8/3.2 on 50% FG - 54.5% TS
vs Suns: 22.1/4.0/4.1 on 43.8% FG
vs Bullets: 29.0/3.6/3.6 on 50% FG - 53.5% TS
150 WS/48, 4.7 BPM

A poorer series vs the Suns, but against Kareem and against Unseld/Hayes he had monster series, scoring 29-30ppg, and although he's not known as an efficient scorer, those TS%s are marginally above the RS league average that season. I don't think Bosh ever did anything like that in the playoffs.

I would also point out that Williams' minutes and subsequently other numbers got better from 1978 to 1979(and they were already good in 1978), and they won the Finals(against the same opponent) when Gus got better and reached his peak, which supports my position that he was the best player on those teams.

Williams went to two Finals and won a championship as arguably #1, and Worthy was arguably #2 for his last two championships and three Finals runs(87-89), not to mention the 91 Finals run(where his injury is often cited as a factor that may have altered the outcome of the series), and Bosh was a distant #3 for his two championships.

Finally, I would push issel over Bosh again, for all the reasons I've previously said - went to the Finals and got within a game of the ABA title without Gilmore, got within a game of the ABA title twice(once without Gilmore, once with) and had league-leading SRS and Net Rtg twice(not the same two seasons as the ABA Finals losses) while still scoring 27-30ppg, won the ABA title in 1975, had two additional conference finals appearances in the NBA, leads all potential nominees in total minutes played and WS/48, incredibly durable, etc etc.

[trex_8063]

Nomination 1: Chris Bosh
Nomination 2: James Worthy

My mind is pretty open here, but of the players getting attention right now, I'm inclined to go with Bosh. There's no doubt that he was a legit B-list alpha, and I was extremely impressed by what he transformed himself into which enabled the Heatles to actually be something close to what they thought they could be.

I'll put Big Game James in there in the 2nd slot again. In comparison to guys like Gus Williams or Jerry Lucas, I really don't think it's close. Worthy was an exceptional player who stood out most against the strongest playoff competition.

I would encourage you to reconsider this going forward.

Bosh was an alpha for seven years in Toronto during which he accomplished virtually nothing, winning zero playoff series and having a positive SRS only twice. That's not all his fault of course, but it's hard to ignore. He has a decent-to-good impact signal with Toronto's numbers after he left for Miami, but I don't know if it's enough. And in Miami he was never more than #3.

First WRT to Worthy:

Worthy in playoffs:
21.1ppg/5.2rpg/3.2apg on 54.4% FG in 37mpg
28.1p/6.9r/4.3a(vs 2.8 to) per 100
57.8% TS(+4.1 over RS career league average)
over 143 games

Bosh in playoffs:
16.7ppg/7.6rpg/1.3apg on 47.3% FG in 35.2mpg
24.4p/11.7r/2.1a(vs 2.2 to) per 100
55.3% TS(+1.6 over RS career league average)
over 89 games

Bosh actually only averaged 15.6 ppg and 7.5 rpg in the playoffs.

However, I'd note that nearly all of Worthy's playoff sample is playing next to Magic Johnson. Look what happened to his TS% as soon as Magic was forced to retire, while Worthy is still in his early 30s (and in spite of '92 and '93 being his two BEST seasons in FT%); and look at the one playoff series after Magic was gone (39.1% TS).

To add in [for info's sake] the topg averages in the playoffs: Worthy 2.1 topg in the playoffs; Bosh 1.4.


Also there is rs output/accomplishment, which is not irrelevant (and in which I'd say Bosh narrowly outdoes Worthy [despite not playing to a Magic-like player for most of his career]). Narrowly outdoes him in accolades/media recognition, too, fwiw.

[trex_8063]

Induction vote: Billy Cunningham
As stated previously, I've had another look at Bill and decided I was underrating him; he provides a decent peak with not totally awful longevity, this in an era/league that isn't near as competitive as today [imo], though MUCH more developed than that of Bob Davies (or even Hagan). And he's got the hardware.
While I'm not enthusiastic about his inclusion, he feels like the "best of the rest" (again: a line-up of candidates I'm largely not crazy about).


Alternate vote: Jayson Tatum
Similar [to marginally better???] peak as Cunningham relative to his era (makes him a better peak in a vacuum, imo). Shorter career, though, and as of yet lacks the hardware and accolades that Cunningham has. Despite weaker era, that's enough for me to put him below Billy.


Those will have to be my two picks among an entire field I'm not crazy about. Probably NONE of these guys are in my personal top 100; the above two are the only ones who are at least fairly close.



If it comes to any runoff, I'm presently ranking them:
Cunningham > Tatum > Luka > Hagan > Davies


I hadn't really considered Luka yet (career still so young/short), but on taking a "measure" on it, he does spike higher than I expected, even considering only up to 2023. Still comfortably outside my top 100......but not as comfortably outside as I was expecting. Tentatively, I'll even slot him marginally ahead of Hagan. He'll likely be in my top 100 after this current '24 campaign.


Nomination: Chris Bosh
Alt Nomination: Dominique Wilkins

Could flop these two, pending preferences of others (edit: and in fact have swapped Bosh into first).
Bosh has got the hardware, proven as an over-taxed first option (nonetheless able to lead playoff-level team as clear [far and away] best player), as well as a short-list of all-time best "Alfred" on a title team.

As to Dominique, I know he had his playoff failings, but his WOWY profile (referenced in the #87 thread) is respectable for this stage of the list. He was often the ONLY notable scorer his team had, and obviously would then be the focal point of the opposing defense.
So I thus just cannot see how a guy who was even capable (through his talents and durability/longevity) of scoring >26k points in a very competitive era with mostly good shooting efficiency in his prime and a GOOD turnover economy (comparable to that of LeBron James and Ray Allen in mTOV%; BETTER THAN guys like Scottie Pippen, Latrell Sprewell, and Sidney Moncrief), and doing so while often at the helm of some of the best offenses in the league for a few years in the mid-late 80s....

....who was also a good offensive rebounder, and placed 53rd in MVP win shares [fwiw], and who looks competitive via PIPM wins added [see below].....

I'll further quote this argument for him:

Spoiler:

Why Nique rather than his contemporary Alex English? Both great scorers and apparently great guys, Nique is clearly the better rebounder, English the better playmaker, English more versatile and without the playoff efficiency fail. Nique was flashier, had more accolades, and had the best nickname in NBA history but I don't think he was actually better. Willing to listen though.

Atlanta Hawks rORtg and league rank during Nique’s prime
‘86: +0.7 rORTG (11th/23)
‘87: +4.3 rORTG (4th/23)
‘88: +3.3 rORTG (5th/23)
‘89: +4.4 rORTG (4th/25)
‘90: +4.9 rORTG (4th/27)
‘91: +3.0 rORTG (8th/27)
‘92: -0.9 rORTG (16th/27)*
*Important to note Nique missed 40 games this^^^ year. They were +0.8 rORTG in the 42 games he played, -2.6 rORTG in the 40 he missed [+3.4 shift].
‘93: +1.3 rORTG (10th/27)
‘94 (Nique traded late season): +0.9 rORTG (12th/27)


And I want to point out who his primary supporting cast was, in descending order of playing time, for that 5-year stretch in which they were >+3.0 rORTG each and every year.....
'87: Kevin Willis, Doc Rivers, Randy Wittman, Cliff Levingston, Tree Rollins, Jon Koncak
'88: Doc Rivers, Randy Wittman, Cliff Levingston, Kevin Willis, Tree Rollins, Antoine Carr, Spud Webb, John Battle
'89: [late prime/early post-prime] Moses Malone, Reggie Theus, Doc Rivers, Cliff Levingston, John Battle, Jon Koncak, Antoine Carr, Spud Webb
'90: Moses Malone (post-prime), Kevin Willis, Spud Webb, Cliff Levingston, Doc Rivers, John Battle
'91: Doc Rivers, Kevin Willis, Spud Webb, Jon Koncak, Moses Malone (35 yrs old, very post-prime), John Battle


Dominique Wilkins with/without records in prime
‘86: 49-29 (.628) with, 1-3 (.250) without
‘87: 56-23 (.709) with, 1-2 (.333) without
‘88: 48-30 (.615) with, 2-2 (.500) without
‘89: 51-29 (.638) with, 1-1 (.500) without
‘90: 39-41 (.488) with, 2-0 without
‘91: 43-38 (.531) with, 0-1 without
‘92: 22-20 (.524) with, 16-24 (.400) without
‘93: 39-32 (.549) with, 4-7 (.364) without
‘94: 42-32 (.568) with, 4-5 (.444) without
TOTAL: 389-274 (.587)---on pace for 48.1 wins---with him; 31-45 (.408)---on pace for 33.5 wins---without him. Avg +14.7 wins added.


Prime English (‘81-’89)
PER 21.2, .139 WS/48, +2.7 BPM in 36.6 mpg
77.5 WS, cumulative VORP: 28.9

Prime Wilkins (‘86-’94)
PER 23.2, .173 WS/48, +4.5 BPM in 37.4 mpg
89.6 WS, cumulative VORP: 32.8


Career English
Per 100 poss (rs): 30.2 pts, 7.7 reb, 5.1 ast, 1.3 stl, 1.0 blk, 3.4 tov @ .550 TS%
19.9 PER, .127 WS/48, 111 ORtg/110 DRtg (+1) in 31.9 mpg
100.7 rs WS
Per 100 poss (playoffs): 31.1 pts, 7.0 reb, 5.5 ast, 0.9 stl, 0.6 blk, 2.7 tov @ .556 TS%
19.9 PER, .129 WS/48, 116 ORtg/115 DRtg (+1) in 35.7 mpg
6.5 playoff WS

Career Wilkins
Per 100 poss (rs): 34.7 pts, 9.3 reb, 3.5 ast, 1.8 stl, 0.8 blk, 3.5 tov @ .536 TS%
21.6 PER, .148 WS/48, 112 ORtg/108 DRtg (+4) in 35.5 mpg.
117.5 rs WS
Per 100 poss (playoffs): 33.8 pts, 8.9 reb, 3.4 ast, 1.7 stl, 0.8 blk, 3.6 tov @ .510 TS%
18.7 PER, .079 WS/48, 106 ORtg/112 DRtg (-6) in 38.8 mpg
3.6 playoff WS

So Nique looks better in the rs, English looks better in the playoffs (though neither made a huge playoff imprint in their careers, nor has a particularly sizeable playoff game sample size).


I'll also make note of the difference in pts/100 possessions (both rs and playoffs). You've said previously that English gives the "same scoring volume (but on better efficiency)"; but that's not actually true. English, in fact, only has ONE season where he EVER topped Nique's career avg in pts/100 possessions.

I think English’s reputation as a scorer is perhaps a little inflated by the pace and focus on offense that existed on Doug Moe’s Nuggets. During English’s tenure in Denver (third of ‘80 season, then ‘81-’90), the Nuggets had the league’s fastest pace every single year from ‘81 thru ‘89 (sometimes by >5 over the 2nd-fastest team!), and were 2nd in pace in ‘90. Consequently, if you adjust for his numbers for pace, things come back to Earth a little.

English’s best year as a scorer was probably either ‘86 (35.9 pts/100 possessions on +2.15% to league TS%) or ‘82 (30.2 pts/100 poss on TS% +5.75% to league).
Dominique’s best year as a scorer was ‘93 (39.4 pts/100 poss on TS% +3.4% to league)--->I would say Nique wins the battle of scoring peak.
Looking at longer samples, English closes the gap, but doesn't definitively take the lead.......

Prime English (‘81-’89):
32.6 pts/100 poss, +1.9% to league TS%
career: 30.2 pts/100 poss, +1.65% to league TS%
Prime Wilkins (‘86-’94): 36.9 pts/100 poss, +0.8% to league TS%
career: 34.7 pts/100 poss, +/- 0% to league TS%


Couple other measures (career rs stats, fwiw):
Pts/Missed FGA: English--- 2.468, Wilkins--- 2.29
Pts/Turnover: English---- 8.97, Wilkins--- 9.99

So Nique’s obv right there with him as a scorer, arguably marginally better [at least in the rs] imo.
wrt the playoffs, I can't help feeling like opposing defenses couldn't preferentially focus in on English in the same way they would target Nique.......because some of those Denver teams also had Kiki Vandeweghe, Dan Issel, Calvin Natt, then Michael Adams: other guys who could put the ball in the bucket. I'm not sure guys like Kevin Willis or Doc Rivers truly compare as far as guys you need to worry about going off on you, if you cheat toward shutting down Nique.

This is not to say Nique's playoff regression isn't a valid criticism; it absolutely is. But it, shall we say, carries less relevance out here at #90 (when considering all the Nique accomplished in the rs).


And maybe there's something to Nique's bigger fan/media/accolade presence. Those are the guys that drive the imaginations of new generations, and generally drive the increasing popularity of the game........and that's important to the league's evolution.


So those would be my arguments as to why Nique > English.

idk, the guy described belongs somewhere in the top 100, imo.

I'd REALLY like to see guys like LaMarcus Aldridge and Dan Issel gain some traction, too.

Looking at some of our candidates and other notable non-inducted players (and a few recent inductees) by PIPM career wins added (as I know it's a metric some have expressed significant confidence in or appreciation of).....

(Shawn Marion: 123.97)
Maurice Cheeks: 119.15
(Jack Sikma): 117.54
Terry Porter: 116.64
(Horace Grant: 114.81)
(Tony Parker: 113.50)
**Dan Issel: 67.54 (**9-year NBA career ONLY; pro-rated for all 15 seasons would come to 112.57 [though his ABA seasons are likely to be even MORE highly rated])
Chris Bosh: 111.58
LaMarcus Aldridge: 109.02
Dominique Wilkins: 105.11
(Al Horford): 88.24
Carmelo Anthony: 87.39
Chris Webber: 85.49
Chris Mullin: 84.82
Alex English: 82.41
(Sidney Moncrief: 78.53)
Bill Walton: 52.38

[homecourtloss]

Vote: Jason Tatum

Highly consistent two-way impact even as a young player which is rare. Obviously not much longevity, but the profile he's am asked in a short time is impressive.

Alt Vote: Luka Doncic

Again, needs longevity, but his playoffs rising and ability to create offense even with defenses geared to stop him has been incredibly impressive,

Nomination: Marc Gasol

Alt Nomination: Gus Williams

[Owly]

Nomination 1: Chris Bosh
Nomination 2: James Worthy

My mind is pretty open here, but of the players getting attention right now, I'm inclined to go with Bosh. There's no doubt that he was a legit B-list alpha, and I was extremely impressed by what he transformed himself into which enabled the Heatles to actually be something close to what they thought they could be.

I'll put Big Game James in there in the 2nd slot again. In comparison to guys like Gus Williams or Jerry Lucas, I really don't think it's close. Worthy was an exceptional player who stood out most against the strongest playoff competition.

I would encourage you to reconsider this going forward.

Bosh was an alpha for seven years in Toronto during which he accomplished virtually nothing, winning zero playoff series and having a positive SRS only twice. That's not all his fault of course, but it's hard to ignore. He has a decent-to-good impact signal with Toronto's numbers after he left for Miami, but I don't know if it's enough. And in Miami he was never more than #3.

First WRT to Worthy:

Worthy in playoffs:
21.1ppg/5.2rpg/3.2apg on 54.4% FG in 37mpg
28.1p/6.9r/4.3a(vs 2.8 to) per 100
57.8% TS(+4.1 over RS career league average)
over 143 games

Bosh in playoffs:
16.7ppg/7.6rpg/1.3apg on 47.3% FG in 35.2mpg
24.4p/11.7r/2.1a(vs 2.2 to) per 100
55.3% TS(+1.6 over RS career league average)
over 89 games

Worthy has measurable volume and efficiency advantages as a scorer as well as more assists with a better a:t ratio. Maybe you think Bosh's defense/rebounding make up for this, but I don't know about that.

Also, I don't think Lucas has a particularly strong argument, but I think you're underselling Gus. I did a big post in an earlier thread where I painstakingly illustrated how he consistently had positive impact throughout his career. But also, look at his 1979 playoff run to the championship:

vs Lakers: 30.8/4.8/3.2 on 50% FG - 54.5% TS
vs Suns: 22.1/4.0/4.1 on 43.8% FG
vs Bullets: 29.0/3.6/3.6 on 50% FG - 53.5% TS
150 WS/48, 4.7 BPM

A poorer series vs the Suns, but against Kareem and against Unseld/Hayes he had monster series, scoring 29-30ppg, and although he's not known as an efficient scorer, those TS%s are marginally above the RS league average that season. I don't think Bosh ever did anything like that in the playoffs.

I would also point out that Williams' minutes and subsequently other numbers got better from 1978 to 1979(and they were already good in 1978), and they won the Finals(against the same opponent) when Gus got better and reached his peak, which supports my position that he was the best player on those teams.

Williams went to two Finals and won a championship as arguably #1, and Worthy was arguably #2 for his last two championships and three Finals runs(87-89), not to mention the 91 Finals run(where his injury is often cited as a factor that may have altered the outcome of the series), and Bosh was a distant #3 for his two championships.

Finally, I would push issel over Bosh again, for all the reasons I've previously said - went to the Finals and got within a game of the ABA title without Gilmore, got within a game of the ABA title twice(once without Gilmore, once with) and had league-leading SRS and Net Rtg twice(not the same two seasons as the ABA Finals losses) while still scoring 27-30ppg, won the ABA title in 1975, had two additional conference finals appearances in the NBA, leads all potential nominees in total minutes played and WS/48, incredibly durable, etc etc.

In terms of consistency of framing ...
Issel's finals without .. Gilmore ... that's off a negative SRS season that's so harmful to Bosh. But he's playing in a league where 8 of 11 teams make the playoffs (9 if you want to count the tie-breaker which is listed as a playoff game on Reference). And in that conference their mildly negative SRS got them second seed in the weak conference (in a weak league). Did Kentucky run a good team to seven games in the finals, yes and they weren't destroyed differential wise.

But this was a league that as I've related (re: Daniels) big men demolished that were far less outstanding in the NBA. And fwiw (this is super noisy - ABA roster stability isn't great in general - so huge pinch of salt ...) their SRS was better (and positive) the year before. And if Indy hadn't been in the East that year (they moved to the West the next year, when Issel arrived) they might well have gotten to the finals then.


Fwiw, only "twice" positive SRS ... he plays 7 years there ... 2 are younger than Worthy's rookie season and he's solid but not the sort of year driving guys cases here, then puts up star production where they're +1.5 with him on and -5.5 with him off ... so yeah only 2 of those 5 make the playoff but it wasn't his choice to dump Carter for nothing good or to take Bargnani number one ... in light of the pieces and where we are I'm not sure what you're expecting.. Fwiw, Worthy had health stuff in '92 so I'm not going to argue that as what one could expect from him as his role as the centerpiece ... but it's not like Worthy is a known quantity in that role, for whatever that's worth.

Worthy played his most playoff minutes in a role that optimized his production with a star that optimized his production. I think LeBron is the GOAT but he's not pass first like Magic and then add Wade too and you need Bosh, as a big that can do this job to be spacing the floor (some other big non shooters and even non-finishers didn't help). And fwiw I think I'd call their career playoff box rate aggregates are about tie (now average ... samples aren't always even ... though at first glance I'd say Worthy's rookie absence isn't dinged [but probably would/should be in most people's analysis], ant that probably actually raises what his average would be versus him playing that year and very little of old Worthy is probably more helpful [to him] than no very young or last years Bosh ... but I'm not looking closely so ... pinch of salt, that's more first glance than a firmer position).

[falcolombardi]

Vote: Jason Tatum

Highly consistent two-way impact even as a young player which is rare. Obviously not much longevity, but the profile he's am asked in a short time is impressive.

Alt Vote: Luka Doncic

Again, needs longevity, but his playoffs rising and ability to create offense even with defenses geared to stop him has been incredibly impressive,

Nomination: Marc Gasol

Alt Nomination: Gus Williams

As someone who has literally your same votes and noms with the reverse order (funny coincidence) i wanna inquire a bit on tatum vs luka, as well to other tatum voters in general

How big do you actually think the longevity gap needs to be for the quality edge to be overcame?

Cause the way i see it the gap is not even particularly big and it actually feels bigger than it is

Tatum was a really good player for the 2017 and 2018 celtics but more in the category of above average wing/borderline all star

by 2019 rookie luka may have not made the playoffs coming into a lottery team but he already is a comparable at worst player to tatum

By 2020 he already outperformed tatum as he honestly may have dome every other season since

Even tatum crwoning achievement of beating the (injured) bucks in 2022 is matched by luka performance to take down to the 60+ wins suns the same season

How high do you guys actually value a couple years at 2017/2018 tatum level when compared with a half decade of both players at their primes where one has performed clearly better, specially post season?

If you had to choosw between 5 years of both in their primes but tatum got his 3 first seasons (16-18) too would it really be a deal maker to pick tatum instead?

[trelos6]

Vote: Bob Davies

He wasn't in my short listed pool of 160 odd players I initially ranked, but after some support in the last 10-15 threads, I've done some deep dives and I'm happy to have him at 91. I'd give him 4 years at an ALL NBA level, with another 3 at an ALL STAR level. This is enough longevity to get him over Bill Walton.

Alt Vote: Luka Doncic

We’re not supposed to look at this season, despite 1 game left. So Luka is coming out at 4 ALL NBA level seasons, but no doubt this season is #5 and that surpasses Davies for peak longevity. Plus he has potentially 10 years left in his career to build out his resume. No doubt he will continue to go higher and higher in future editions of the top 100 list, but for now, I’m comfortable having Luka in the 90’s.

For the rest, I see it: Tatum > Hagan > Cunningham

Nomination: Terry Porter

For 3 post season runs, Porter was the 1B to Drexler. A very efficient scorer, who ran the team well.

Alt nomination: Neil Johnston

I get it, today he wouldn’t be in the league. But in his time, he was dominant. 5 weak MVP level seasons amongst his peers.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Nomination 1: Chris Bosh
Nomination 2: James Worthy

My mind is pretty open here, but of the players getting attention right now, I'm inclined to go with Bosh. There's no doubt that he was a legit B-list alpha, and I was extremely impressed by what he transformed himself into which enabled the Heatles to actually be something close to what they thought they could be.

I'll put Big Game James in there in the 2nd slot again. In comparison to guys like Gus Williams or Jerry Lucas, I really don't think it's close. Worthy was an exceptional player who stood out most against the strongest playoff competition.

I would encourage you to reconsider this going forward.

Bosh was an alpha for seven years in Toronto during which he accomplished virtually nothing, winning zero playoff series and having a positive SRS only twice. That's not all his fault of course, but it's hard to ignore. He has a decent-to-good impact signal with Toronto's numbers after he left for Miami, but I don't know if it's enough. And in Miami he was never more than #3.

First WRT to Worthy:

Worthy in playoffs:
21.1ppg/5.2rpg/3.2apg on 54.4% FG in 37mpg
28.1p/6.9r/4.3a(vs 2.8 to) per 100
57.8% TS(+4.1 over RS career league average)
over 143 games

Bosh in playoffs:
16.7ppg/7.6rpg/1.3apg on 47.3% FG in 35.2mpg
24.4p/11.7r/2.1a(vs 2.2 to) per 100
55.3% TS(+1.6 over RS career league average)
over 89 games

Bosh actually only averaged 15.6 ppg and 7.5 rpg in the playoffs.

Good catch - no idea how I got that wrong.

However, I'd note that nearly all of Worthy's playoff sample is playing next to Magic Johnson. Look what happened to his TS% as soon as Magic was forced to retire, while Worthy is still in his early 30s (and in spite of '92 and '93 being his two BEST seasons in FT%); and look at the one playoff series after Magic was gone (39.1% TS).

I know it's easy to just chalk it up to Magic retiring, but I think Worthy was already on a downward trajectory before that.

From 1982-83 to 1989-90, Worthy's TS ranged from 57.1% on the low end to 61.3% on the high end. Going from 1989-90 to 1990-91(Magic's last year), his TS dropped from 58.6% to 53.1% - a 5.5% drop, which is in fact higher than the 4.1% drop he'd take from 91 to 92.

Also, if you look at his playoff TS, his 54.5% in the 1990 playoffs was his lowest up to that point, before dropping to 50.2% in 1991(albeit he was hurt for some of that).

I think he was going to decline with or without Magic.

To add in [for info's sake] the topg averages in the playoffs: Worthy 2.1 topg in the playoffs; Bosh 1.4.

I was specifically looking at the a:t ratios.

Also there is rs output/accomplishment, which is not irrelevant (and in which I'd say Bosh narrowly outdoes Worthy [despite not playing to a Magic-like player for most of his career]). Narrowly outdoes him in accolades/media recognition, too, fwiw.

I really don't think Bosh would be getting much consideration here if he hadn't played with LBJ and Wade for four years. His time in Toronto does not make a strong enough case IMO.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Nomination 1: Chris Bosh
Nomination 2: James Worthy

My mind is pretty open here, but of the players getting attention right now, I'm inclined to go with Bosh. There's no doubt that he was a legit B-list alpha, and I was extremely impressed by what he transformed himself into which enabled the Heatles to actually be something close to what they thought they could be.

I'll put Big Game James in there in the 2nd slot again. In comparison to guys like Gus Williams or Jerry Lucas, I really don't think it's close. Worthy was an exceptional player who stood out most against the strongest playoff competition.

I would encourage you to reconsider this going forward.

Bosh was an alpha for seven years in Toronto during which he accomplished virtually nothing, winning zero playoff series and having a positive SRS only twice. That's not all his fault of course, but it's hard to ignore. He has a decent-to-good impact signal with Toronto's numbers after he left for Miami, but I don't know if it's enough. And in Miami he was never more than #3.

First WRT to Worthy:

Worthy in playoffs:
21.1ppg/5.2rpg/3.2apg on 54.4% FG in 37mpg
28.1p/6.9r/4.3a(vs 2.8 to) per 100
57.8% TS(+4.1 over RS career league average)
over 143 games

Bosh in playoffs:
16.7ppg/7.6rpg/1.3apg on 47.3% FG in 35.2mpg
24.4p/11.7r/2.1a(vs 2.2 to) per 100
55.3% TS(+1.6 over RS career league average)
over 89 games

Worthy has measurable volume and efficiency advantages as a scorer as well as more assists with a better a:t ratio. Maybe you think Bosh's defense/rebounding make up for this, but I don't know about that.

Also, I don't think Lucas has a particularly strong argument, but I think you're underselling Gus. I did a big post in an earlier thread where I painstakingly illustrated how he consistently had positive impact throughout his career. But also, look at his 1979 playoff run to the championship:

vs Lakers: 30.8/4.8/3.2 on 50% FG - 54.5% TS
vs Suns: 22.1/4.0/4.1 on 43.8% FG
vs Bullets: 29.0/3.6/3.6 on 50% FG - 53.5% TS
150 WS/48, 4.7 BPM

A poorer series vs the Suns, but against Kareem and against Unseld/Hayes he had monster series, scoring 29-30ppg, and although he's not known as an efficient scorer, those TS%s are marginally above the RS league average that season. I don't think Bosh ever did anything like that in the playoffs.

I would also point out that Williams' minutes and subsequently other numbers got better from 1978 to 1979(and they were already good in 1978), and they won the Finals(against the same opponent) when Gus got better and reached his peak, which supports my position that he was the best player on those teams.

Williams went to two Finals and won a championship as arguably #1, and Worthy was arguably #2 for his last two championships and three Finals runs(87-89), not to mention the 91 Finals run(where his injury is often cited as a factor that may have altered the outcome of the series), and Bosh was a distant #3 for his two championships.

Finally, I would push issel over Bosh again, for all the reasons I've previously said - went to the Finals and got within a game of the ABA title without Gilmore, got within a game of the ABA title twice(once without Gilmore, once with) and had league-leading SRS and Net Rtg twice(not the same two seasons as the ABA Finals losses) while still scoring 27-30ppg, won the ABA title in 1975, had two additional conference finals appearances in the NBA, leads all potential nominees in total minutes played and WS/48, incredibly durable, etc etc.

In terms of consistency of framing ...
Issel's finals without .. Gilmore ... that's off a negative SRS season that's so harmful to Bosh. But he's playing in a league where 8 of 11 teams make the playoffs (9 if you want to count the tie-breaker which is listed as a playoff game on Reference). And in that conference their mildly negative SRS got them second seed in the weak conference (in a weak league). Did Kentucky run a good team to seven games in the finals, yes and they weren't destroyed differential wise.

But this was a league that as I've related (re: Daniels) big men demolished that were far less outstanding in the NBA. And fwiw (this is super noisy - ABA roster stability isn't great in general - so huge pinch of salt ...) their SRS was better (and positive) the year before. And if Indy hadn't been in the East that year (they moved to the West the next year, when Issel arrived) they might well have gotten to the finals then.

These are more or less criticisms of the ABA that could apply to any of those ABA big men you're referencing, except I would note that Issel's production in the NBA held up better than almost any of them(I think probably only Gilmore looks better in the NBA).

Fwiw, only "twice" positive SRS ... he plays 7 years there ... 2 are younger than Worthy's rookie season and he's solid but not the sort of year driving guys cases here, then puts up star production where they're +1.5 with him on and -5.5 with him off ... so yeah only 2 of those 5 make the playoff but it wasn't his choice to dump Carter for nothing good or to take Bargnani number one ... in light of the pieces and where we are I'm not sure what you're expecting.. Fwiw, Worthy had health stuff in '92 so I'm not going to argue that as what one could expect from him as his role as the centerpiece ... but it's not like Worthy is a known quantity in that role, for whatever that's worth.

Worthy played his most playoff minutes in a role that optimized his production with a star that optimized his production. I think LeBron is the GOAT but he's not pass first like Magic and then add Wade too and you need Bosh, as a big that can do this job to be spacing the floor (some other big non shooters and even non-finishers didn't help). And fwiw I think I'd call their career playoff box rate aggregates are about tie (now average ... samples aren't always even ... though at first glance I'd say Worthy's rookie absence isn't dinged [but probably would/should be in most people's analysis], ant that probably actually raises what his average would be versus him playing that year and very little of old Worthy is probably more helpful [to him] than no very young or last years Bosh ... but I'm not looking closely so ... pinch of salt, that's more first glance than a firmer position).

Right, I said that Toronto's poor performance was not all Bosh's fault.

It's not just about optimization of production. As I said before, Bosh was a distant #3 for his title/finals runs. Worthy was legitimately #2 in 87-89. There is an issue of primacy during team success.