Where would peak Bob Cousy rank today as a playmaker?

[rk2023]

Of course everyone remembers Cooz being a generational playmaker in era relative terms, and some of his passing chops really stand out in terms of delivery, manipulation : creativity, and putting his teammates in the right position.

That said, in a more spaced out era with far better play-finishers, movement, and shooting - I’d guess Cousy translates very well. With that said, where would you rank him as a playmaker today?

[One_and_Done]

Top 10 as a G-League back-up Janitor. The only passes on an nba floor he'd be making would be with a mop.

[OriAr]

I'd put him up there with Haliburton, Trae, Jokic and Luka, so top 5 I guess?

[SportsGuru08]

Even with all the dribbling restrictions of his day, he made passes that I've only ever seen from Magic Johnson. He'll do just fine.

[tsherkin]

Interesting question. This is definitely his wheelhouse, so if he could get over the athletic disadvantage he would often be at and learn a little bit more about contemporary PnR (the latter of which would be no issue at all)... he'd probably look pretty decent as a playmaker today. He had phenomenal vision and the ability to throw some passes which were, even by today's standards, pretty advanced. Dude was legit to an extent that would carry forward.

And even as I remark on athleticism, that would more be related to his defense than anything else, given screen usage and pace, right? So I think purely as a playmaker, he'd probably be pretty up there.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Great court vision.
Good fakes and look away passes
Razzle dazzle was good but could backfire, you don’t want to get too cute, sometimes basic is better.

Good handles. Don’t forget that by 1960s rules modern players are constantly traveling. Also some palming. Playing by 1960s rules make dribblers look less fluid. Cousey had good handles but I am not sure if he would be exposong the ball to better modern defenders.

The problem is fot speed and shooting.
Cousy was a high volume horrible shooter by modern standards. Play Cousy for the pass and encourage cousy to shoot. With Cousy’s shot considered a joke by modern standards that should help defenders defend his pass slightly better.

Foot speed. Cousey was faster than average for his era but would be slower than average in the current era. Cousy would not get the same separation from defenders that had in his era. A modern fast defender could poke at the ball get beat and then recover to poke at the ball again. Faster modern defenders have the speed to stay attached to cousy.

[Rishkar]

Cousy is in my opinion one of the most overrated basketball players ever. I don't think he'd even be a top 10 playmaker in today's league because of his lack of scoring punch. Passing and scoring are synergistic, as you improve in one area it makes the other easier as well. Cousy would be guarded like Draymond or Simmons today. I don't discredit Cousy because of his era, and he was a fantastic passer and ball handler. However, his game is reminiscent of Jason Williams, incredibly fun to watch, not great at lifting team offense.

[dygaction]

Cannot imagine he would be a starter with no shooting, and teams can leave him open so his effectiveness as a playmaker would decrease. Also behind players like Dinwiddie and Exum, so not top 30.

[CavaliersFTW]

I just happened to make a Cousy vid that touches on his abilities. I personally think he’d be an elite player in any era. Because of his mind for the game more than anything. The moves and patterns he practices would adapt accordingly and get expressed differently depending on the era - but would always still carry his flair.

Watch on YouTube

[giordunk]

Yes he was good and ahead of his time but everything he did and innovated has already been mastered in today's NBA. He's 6'1 and 175 pounds. TJ McConnell is 6'1 and 190 pounds and has pretty much made the most of his opportunity in the NBA. Trae Young is 6'1 and 164 pounds and is one of the best shooters in the NBA.

The best shooter in the Cousy era wouldn't be close to a top 10 shooter in today's era. Playmaking would be the same.

Pretty much any NCAA D1 point guard today has Cousy's skillset and more (unless it's a pure athletic point guard with low bball IQ).

[70sFan]

I just happened to make a Cousy vid that touches on his abilities. I personally think he’d be an elite player in any era. Because of his mind for the game more than anything. The moves and patterns he practices would adapt accordingly and get expressed differently depending on the era - but would always still carry his flair.

Watch on YouTube

Hi, I'm so glad to see you back. I haven't found enough time to write to you about the new video (I am sick... Nothing serious though.) but just know that I love the new format.

Do you plan more videos in this format? I hope you do, it's was a joy to watch.

[CavaliersFTW]

Hi, I'm so glad to see you back. I haven't found enough time to write to you about the new video (I am sick... Nothing serious though.) but just know that I love the new format.

Do you plan more videos in this format? I hope you do, it's was a joy to watch.

Hey hope you feel better soon! I have some things to iron out with it (audio issues... hopefully I get them sorted for the next one) but overall I was getting mostly good feedback which is encouraging so yes I plan to do many more videos and topics like this. It frees me up to speak about nuances or perspectives I can't always just pull from the dialogue of other players or coaches which is what I was depending on before. Hopefully it also saves me time so that I can output more videos more often.

[CavaliersFTW]

I'll also mention since I see a lot of mentions about his physical abilities (specifically his quickness/footspeed etc). I don't think that's the right lens to view what Bob Cousy can do for a team. We're trying to pigeon hole his abilities that way into becoming a player that he isn't, or ever would be. Best way to think of it IMO is that he's a 6-1 Jokic or Luka. You could use the same footspeed logic to those guys and decide they'd never be worth much in the NBA. Cousy really is different. Most all of the faster footspeed players playing guard today in the NBA can't see the floor like him. Closest player I see to Cousy in today's NBA as far as surveying ability and creativity is Jokic. Cousy won't be as big, but he'll be a heck of a lot more agile and faster than Jokic. No, it won't be as fast and agile as most any other guards, but he also wouldn't play like them. He'd be doing the same slow to mid speed stuff Jokic and Doncic do in half court settings, mixed in with some intermittent up tempo running in the open court that is 'fast enough'. I'm pretty sure it would still work, just like Jokic works. It more than works actually. If you can survey the floor and move that ball around dynamically like that you've got more than just a place in the NBA, I think it's a special talent to be honest. I've never seen facilitating like Cousy's in the open court other than from Magic Johnson. Cousy's percentages for shooting would likely all go up. His range would increase. He still wouldn't be a sniper, it also just isn't his thing. He was a serviceable shooter and scorer then, I think he could carry that over now. Maybe his form changes. IDK. I just believe his value isn't going to be held back by what he 'can't' do as much as it will be carried by what he can do that few others can duplicate.

[tsherkin]

I'll also mention since I see a lot of mentions about his physical abilities (specifically his quickness/footspeed etc). I don't think that's the right lens to view what Bob Cousy can do for a team. We're trying to pigeon hole his abilities that way into becoming a player that he isn't, or ever would be. Best way to think of it IMO is that he's a 6-1 Jokic or Luka.

Nope. That isn't right either. Right off the bat, Cousy wouldn't be anywhere near the tier of scoring relevant to using either of those guys as a point of comparison.

We're talking about Rubio/Rondo type stuff here unless there is a major adjustment in how he's able to score the basketball, that's the big hang-up with Cooz in today's game. And likely without their defensive relevance, that aside.

EDIT: Though it bears repeating that this thread is explicitly about playmaking, not holistic player value.

[CavaliersFTW]

Nope. That isn't right either. Right off the bat, Cousy wouldn't be anywhere near the tier of scoring relevant to using either of those guys as a point of comparison.

We're talking about Rubio/Rondo type stuff here unless there is a major adjustment in how he's able to score the basketball, that's the big hang-up with Cooz in today's game. And likely without their defensive relevance, that aside.

EDIT: Though it bears repeating that this thread is explicitly about playmaking, not holistic player value.

I guess I should also clarify that I think Cousy makes that kind of playmaking (and holistic) impact I suggested based on two conditional factors. The first factor is, a coaching system that completely buys into trusting him to do his thing in transition. A greenlight to allow transition basketball like how Red Aurbach ran the Celtics. In a half court setting, I can squint my eyes and see a Rubio comparison. I just watched a few Rubio highlights including his career high in scoring (only 37!?) That's a markedly inferior scoring mind just on willingness to shoot alone than Cousy was but even regardless of that I was shocked at what I didn't see in Rubio's highlights. I didn't see a single fast break. Cousy only resembles Rubio or visa versa if you completely take away the thing Cousy did 80% of the time and was truly gifted at, which was controlling the fast break. I at least see Jokic and Doncic run the break which is why I made those comparisons.

But that brings me to the next conditional factor for Cousy to 'thrive' in the way I implied. He needs the right system but of course he also needs the right personnel to be around him. Which he was blessed to have in his own career. A big that gets rebounds and learns to have early eyes (looks or learns where Cousy is before the rebound is even secured so outlets are automatic), the rest of the guys have to be willing to run play up tempo. Cousy's teams didn't do well until they got Russell for this reason. Russell additionally became a monster defensive big which secured the Celtics dynasty but even without the defense the rebounding and outlets to Cousy is a keystone.

I think he's a fairly unique player, I don't think he can be described as a version of any player playing today I personally think he's a great talent though, not an average or below average talent.

[tsherkin]

I guess I should also clarify that I think Cousy makes that kind of playmaking (and holistic) impact I suggested based on two conditional factors. The first factor is, a coaching system that completely buys into trusting him to do his thing in transition. A greenlight to allow transition basketball like how Red Aurbach ran the Celtics. In a half court setting, I can squint my eyes and see a Rubio comparison. I just watched a few Rubio highlights including his career high in scoring (only 37!?) That's a markedly inferior scoring mind just on willingness to shoot alone than Cousy was but even regardless of that I was shocked at what I didn't see in Rubio's highlights. I didn't see a single fast break. Cousy only resembles Rubio or visa versa if you completely take away the thing Cousy did 80% of the time and was truly gifted at, which was controlling the fast break. I at least see Jokic and Doncic run the break from time to time which is why I made those comparisons.

The main reason that I brought up Rubio as point of comparison was that he was useless as a scoring threat but still effective as a playmaker. Like, he was properly incompetent as a scorer and still managed nearly 700 games in the NBA. Probably wouldn't fly today, but it happened. My point was that Cousy could potentially be that kind of player. Andre Miller, another guy who (while better than Rubio relative to his league environments) could be worth some talk. Same same, Rondo.

I didn't mean for either of them to be a perfect aesthetic or athletic map for Cousy, just analogs in their scoring inefficiency coupled to playmaking ability. And since they didn't demonstrate a lot of threat but could still impact with playmaking, it suits.

Cousy's teams didn't do well until they got Russell for this reason.

Mmmm. 4th in the league in wins as a rookie, 39-30. Maintained that a couple years, then won 46 and a first-round series. Ran into the Knicks and lost again (just couldn't beat them at the time). Beat the Knicks in 54, and again in 55.

Pre-Russell, he actually set a better single-season wins record than he did with Russell in wins in 57... but they won the title that year because of course Russell was a titanic talent.

So it actually isn't true that Cousy's teams didn't do well. They won several playoff series and were above .500 for that stretch.

I think he's a fairly unique player, I don't think he can be described as a version of any player playing today I personally think he's a great talent though, not an average or below average talent.

HIs playmaking, which is entirely the focus of this thread rather than his broader value, showcased a lot of modern tools. He had the vision, he had the technical ability to deliver passes, he could do it in transition and all that. Like, you watch video of him, and he looks pretty good in those aspects. And he wasn't a dumb dude, so like, you give him access to appropriate training and he'd be fine with contemporary PnR.

How good he'd be beyond just those elements? That's a problem, but also not one for this specific thread, you know?