Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History

[Lebronnygoat]

LeBron James is often overshadowed by heavy scorers such as Jordan, Kobe, Durant, Wilt, ect. Though, he is probably the GOAT scorer. I would explain what the abbrevitions of these terms mean, but since realgm doesn't save drafts (I think) I am too lazy to type it all again. This post will be going over their performances vs -3 rDRTG teams.
These stats are IA/75 (Adjusted to 2023)
2009-2018 LeBron James

2009 vs Orlando (-6.4 rDRTG): PPG-39.0/TS%- 59.1/rTS- +8.3

2011 vs Boston (-7.0 rDRTG): PPG-29.4/TS%- 55.7/rTS- +3.7

2011 vs Chicago (-7.0 rDRTG): PPG-27.5/TS%- 56.9/rTS- +5.0

2012 vs New York (-3.7rDRTG): PPG-33.6/TS%- 60.4/rTS- +7.8

2012 vs Boston (-6.4 rDRTG): PPG-35.2/TS%- 58.7/rTS- +8.9

2013 vs Indiana (-6.1 rDRTG): PPG-32.1/TS%- 60.9/rTS- +11.4

2013 vs San Antonio (-4.3 rDRTG): PPG-26.8/TS%- 52.9/rTS- +1.3

2014 vs Charlotte (-3.0 rDRTG): PPG-33.2/TS%- 67.1/rTS- +14.5

2014 vs Indiana (-7.4 rDRTG): PPG-31.1/TS%- 63.7/rTS- +13.6

2014 vs San Antonio (-4.3 rDRTG): PPG-34.1/TS%- 67.9/rTS- +16.0

2015 vs Golden State (-4.2 rDRTG): PPG-34.5/TS%- 47.7/rTS--3.7

2016 vs Atlanta (-5.0 rDRTG): PPG-29.0/TS%- 57.3/rTS- +5.3

2017 vs Golden State (-4.0 rDRTG): PPG-31.5/TS%- 63.0/rTS- +10.5

2018 vs Boston (-4.7 rDRTG): PPG-35.3/TS%- 61.0/rTS- +7.8

Average: PPG-30.1 rTS- +7.7 (-5.4 rDRTG)

1988-1998 Michael Jordan (included 86 to be fair)

1986 vs Boston (-4.6 rDRTG): PPG-38.5/TS%- 58.4/rTS- +7.5

1989 vs Cleveland (-4.9 rDRTG): PPG-41.0/TS%- 59.8/rTS- +8.7

1989 vs Detroit (-3.1 rDRTG): PPG-30.2/TS%- 56.1/rTS- +4.7

1990 vs Detroit (-4.6 rDRTG): PPG-32.4/TS%- 57.6/rTS- +5.2

1992 vs New York (-4.0 rDRTG): PPG-33.8/TS%- 53.9/rTS- +1.8

1992 vs Portland (-4.0 rDRTG): PPG-35.5/TS%- 61.7/rTS- +9.6

1993 vs New York (-8.3 rDRTG): PPG-36.2/TS%- 52.2/rTS- +1.8

1996 vs Miami (-3.8 rDRTG): PPG-36.7/TS%- 60.9/rTS- +8.3

1996 vs New York (-4.1rDRTG): PPG-37.0/TS%- 53.4/rTS- + +1.1

1996 vs Seattle (-5.5 rDRTG): PPG-30.1/TS%- 53.8/rTS- +1.4

1997 vs Atlanta (-4.4 rDRTG): PPG-29.0/TS%- 50.6/rTS--0.4

1997 vs Miami (-6.1 rDRTG): PPG-33.4/TS%- 47.5/rTS--3.7

1998 vs Indiana (-3.8 rDRTG): PPG-36.4/TS%- 55.7/rTS- +5.7

Average: PPG-34.3/rTS- +3.8 (-4.3 rDRTG)

2009-2018 LeBron James- Average: PPG-30.1 rTS- +7.7 (-5.4 rDRTG)
1988-1998 Michael Jordan- Average: PPG-34.3/rTS- +3.8 (-4.3 rDRTG)

LeBron James clearly faced better defensive competition and clearly outperformed Jordan. LeBron also has better peak playoff performances here than Jordan's peak.

P.S- Taking more shots and being far less inefficient =/= better scorer.

[edgymnerch]

The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.

The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer

[homecourtloss]

One of the things that gets lost when discussing how LeBron has been able to take offenses to highest heights is his personal scoring efficiency no matter how good the defenses got, and he played a LOT of games vs. -4 rDRtg teams or better (81); in these games his scoring efficacy didn’t really change. One of the most impressive things is that his relative effective FG% (reFG%) doesn’t get affected by defenses until you get to the -7 rDRtgs or better, which he played 23 games against. For some scorers, they can keep their rTS% numbers g eternally intact vs. good defenses, but their reFG% drops.



Notice how now matter how good the defenses get, the rTS% and reFG% pretty much stay the same:



His scoring efficacy is pretty much the same whether he is facing a -2 rDRtg or -7 rDRtg, which is crazy:



If we compare this with Jordan, Jordan had higher volume, and his rTS% held up well, but his reFG% dropped against the very best defenses of which he didn’t play as many games:

[homecourtloss]

LeBron from 2012-2018 played 143 playoff games with a +7.1 rTS% (-2.9 rDRtg faced)
LeBron from 2012-2018 sans 2015 played 123 playoff games with a +9.1 rTS% (-3 rDRtg faced)
LeBron from 2014 to 2018 sans 2015 played 77 playoff games with a +10.3 rTS% (-2.6 rDRtg faced)
LeBron from 2012-2018 taking his best series (85 games worth vs. a combined -3.2 rDRtg): +11.3 rTS%
LeBron from 2012-2018 taking his best series (72 games worth vs. a combined -3.3 rDRtg): +12.1 rTS%

LeBron from 2012-2018 taking his best series (65 games worth vs. a combined -3.6 rDRtg): +12.4 rTS% and +12.7 reFG% (notice that the defenses are better but LeBron is better vs. the better defenses)

[Lebronnygoat]

The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.

The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer

4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate, especially when the defensive competition is in LeBron’s favor by -1. Peak wise LeBron’s resilience clears too. 2014 and 2009 > Any Jordan. Regular season is closer. Though peak regular season goes to LeBron. While prime is comparable.

[Heej]

The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.

The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer

This handwave would've been a lot more effective if there's wasn't such a noticeable difference in the quality of defensive competition relative to era.

Also, might be outside the scope of the topic here but the volume argument is tempered by the open teammate shots generated by LeBron which ironically is relevant to his scoring resilience because his passing forces teams to play less aggressive swarming schemes against him.

Logically it follows that extra Jordan buckets at a decreased efficiency indicate he was taking shots that were better off being passed out and keeping defenses honest.

[homecourtloss]

The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.

The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer

This handwave would've been a lot more effective if there's wasn't such a noticeable difference in the quality of defensive competition relative to era.

Also, might be outside the scope of the topic here but the volume argument is tempered by the open teammate shots generated by LeBron which ironically is relevant to his scoring resilience because his passing forces teams to play less aggressive swarming schemes against him.

[Heej]

The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.

The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer

This handwave would've been a lot more effective if there's wasn't such a noticeable difference in the quality of defensive competition relative to era.

Also, might be outside the scope of the topic here but the volume argument is tempered by the open teammate shots generated by LeBron which ironically is relevant to his scoring resilience because his passing forces teams to play less aggressive swarming schemes against him.

Really kinda validates the whole Expansion Emperor meme when you see how quickly he fell off vs better comp.

[Lebronnygoat]

One of the things that gets lost when discussing how LeBron has been able to take offenses to highest heights is his personal scoring efficiency no matter how good the defenses got, and he played a LOT of games vs. -4 rDRtg teams or better (81); in these games his scoring efficacy didn’t really change. One of the most impressive things is that his relative effective FG% (reFG%) doesn’t get affected by defenses until you get to the -7 rDRtgs or better, which he played 23 games against. For some scorers, they can keep their rTS% numbers g eternally intact vs. good defenses, but their reFG% drops.



Notice how now matter how good the defenses get, the rTS% and reFG% pretty much stay the same:



His scoring efficacy is pretty much the same whether he is facing a -2 rDRtg or -7 rDRtg, which is crazy:



If we compare this with Jordan, Jordan had higher volume, and his rTS% held up well, but his reFG% dropped against the very best defenses of which he didn’t play as many games:

Shows how LeBron simply didn’t exert his GOAT scoring against not as tough defenses due to it not being needed. Unlike MJ who’s averaging 45 on the 92 Miami Heat. Shouldn’t -3 rdrtg be more of a gap? Is this rts to the league or opp

[OhayoKD]

Jordan's main advantage as a scorer is he can retain high-volume better next to other stars(in a sense he is more portable there). He also just does it more in the Regular season which I wouldn't wholly discount.

[OhayoKD]

The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.

The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer

4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate, especially when the defensive competition is in LeBron’s favor by -1. Peak wise LeBron’s resilience clears too. 2014 and 2009 > Any Jordan. Regular season is closer. Though peak regular season goes to LeBron. While prime is comparable.

Does it? Show your work

Will say the more you lean towards efficiency, the stronger Kareem's GOAT scoring case becomes

[Lebronnygoat]

The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.

The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer

4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate, especially when the defensive competition is in LeBron’s favor by -1. Peak wise LeBron’s resilience clears too. 2014 and 2009 > Any Jordan. Regular season is closer. Though peak regular season goes to LeBron. While prime is comparable.

Does it? Show your work

Will say the more you lean towards efficiency, the stronger Kareem's GOAT scoring case becomes

Well, 1977 PS Kareem IA/75 was 32.3 +13.4. 2009, 2014 clear that with far more volume and more efficiency. This is peak PS Kareem btw.

Perhaps I was too crazy with clears, but 4 efficiency points are better without thinking for a while.

[1993Playoffs]

He kinda became unstoppable in his 2nd Cavs. Only thing holding him back was stamina

[70sFan]

I didn't know only 2 players exist in this discussion. Why don't you share other players numbers as well?

BTW, I'd have to check my spreadsheets but I think something is wrong with these numbers.

[IdolW0rm]

The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.

The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer

4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate

Yeah, no...

[Lebronnygoat]

The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.

The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer

4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate

Yeah, no...

It’s surely better lol.

[Colbinii]

The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao.

This would be true if PP75 and Efficiency were linear, but they aren't.

A 4 PP75 gap =/= 4 Rel Efficiency Gap

[Colbinii]

The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.

The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer

4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate

Yeah, no...

Alright, let's break it down for you.

LeBron: PPG-30.1 rTS- +7.7
Jordan: PPG-34.3 rTS- +3.8

The Big thing we are missing with this data is TSA, but when I try to look for TSA, I think OP has his numbers wrong.

OP, why do you not include every series for LeBron?

His PP100 from 2009-2018 is 37.9, which puts him at 28.4 PP75.

[ChipotleWest]

Jordan had the era with the better defenders, and how can you do not points per game? You don't want to because Lebron loses. All these advanced stats that try to paint Lebron as better are nonsense. Lebron is the all time scoring leader because of longevity, but Jordan was the better scorer. Especially considering Lebron has shot over 5000 more 3 pointers than Jordan and yet still is below him in ppg it's not even close.

Scoring titles
Jordan: 10
Lebron: 1

[Lebronnygoat]

4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate

Yeah, no...

Alright, let's break it down for you.

LeBron: PPG-30.1 rTS- +7.7
Jordan: PPG-34.3 rTS- +3.8

The Big thing we are missing with this data is TSA, but when I try to look for TSA, I think OP has his numbers wrong.

OP, why do you not include every series for LeBron?

His PP100 from 2009-2018 is 37.9, which puts him at 28.4 PP75.

I’m curious as to how your numbers aren’t different than mine. PBP stats shows me the per 100 stats and I multiply them by .75 to get per 75. Then I look at the league average ORTG vs those elite defenses, get the result and multiply it by the per 75 numbers. This is to truly see how well they compared vs their level of elite defenses, such as I do with TS%. Shooting 50%TS vs the Spurs in 1999 is considered below league average (51.1) when looking at the total league average of TS%. Though, when you adjust the TS% to league average TS% VS THE SPURS, it’s actually much more impressive. The league average TS% vs SAS is 46.4. So 50.0-46.4=3.6. That’s +3.6rTS. That’s good.