The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Playoffs & Off-Season Thread -(NO PERSONAL ATTACKS & BAITING)

[TheGOATRises007]

Russell trying to say something

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After dropping a goose egg from the field, he should really be looking into that STFU lifestyle more than anything else, given how he basically cost them that game.

LMAO. Kobe, in another imitation of his idol MJ, would have busted him in the **** mouth after the way this idiot has played in the last two series against the Nuggets. Russell is officially a clown. But, he's decent against the bottom dwellers in the league so there is that. He gone and I sure hope it's to a **** team, so he can show his "talent".

This is ironically true

[TroubleS0me]

lol if both KD & LBJ go down 0-3,

[capfan33]

lol if both KD & LBJ go down 0-3,

[PistolPeteJR]

Well DLo just confirmed he’s not coming back. He’s for sure putting on a Magic uniform, watch. They need a PG anyway and defensively can cover for him.

Thing is, bad fit. Lol.

[rk2023]

Russell trying to say something

Read on Twitter

That’s a fake post, coming from “TheNBACentel”… It helps to check sources a few times before sending things out, that might just be me though

In serious note though, I don’t put stock into Dlo’s off the court behavior if he’s producing. He’s not though, some interesting quotes followed by a goose egg with your season on the line is **** deplorable.

[TroubleS0me]

Russell trying to say something

Read on Twitter

That’s a fake post, coming from “TheNBACentel”… It helps to check sources a few times before sending things out, that might just be me though

In serious note though, I don’t put stock into Dlo’s off the court behavior if he’s producing. He’s not though, some interesting quotes followed by a goose egg with your season on the line is **** deplorable.

yea it was click bait damn look real

[Mos_Heat]

When we talk about guys who aren’t major stars, I think it’s always going to be very easy to pick guys apart and criticize them as bad (after all, if they didn’t have things to pick at, they’d be major stars!). And people have winners’ bias and losers’ bias, so when a team isn’t doing well, they pick apart the role players, and when the team does well they think about the strengths that made those guys win. For instance, if the shoe were on the other foot, I think one would see a lot of Nuggets fans criticizing MPJ as being a black hole offensively that somehow isn’t a good defender despite his size. That would snowball into criticizing the coach for allowing MPJ to almost never pass the ball, etc. If they were losing, Gordon would probably be being criticized for his lack of shooting ability. Nuggets fans would probably be opining on the fact that the organization let the bench deteriorate compared to last year and has no viable backup big man. Murray would be being criticized for hogging the ball too much and having bad shot selection. Fans of teams that lose often have a favorite player that they don’t want to blame for the loss and so they pick apart the other players on the team or the coach or things about the organization in order to apportion the blame elsewhere. Often those criticisms end up being at least partially valid! After all, if one team is winning, then they very likely do have the better team and there are reasons they are winning. But when you compare rosters using that kind of losers’ bias (and, on the flip side, winners’ bias regarding the other team), then it’s not a great way to dispassionately compare rosters.

You can play smart and hard, generate open shots and still lose, or you can play like Dlo and Rui. Your starting SF can't have 10 rebounds and 0 stocks in 97 minutes of play. I'm not even talking about the offense. You can miss shots, it happens. But a stater on a playoff team should do something else besides scoring, and these guys can't

I think that’s right—Rui has not done well on the boards in these games. But is that happening because Rui is a bad player, or is it happening because he’s facing a really good team that makes it particularly tough in this regard? Remember, the Nuggets are like the best contested-rebound team in the league (in large part due to Jokic, but Gordon and others contribute here too). They make it hard for opposing players to contribute in that regard (and indeed, LeBron has had trouble on the boards too!). Just because a role player doesn’t do well in a series doesn’t mean they’re a bad or untalented player. If a role player would always do well, they wouldn’t be a role player!

Ok, but shouldn't the bar be higher for a starter? He has 3 more points in the series than Peyton Watson

[zimpy27]

LeBron to OKC is what I'm hoping.

He needs to be on a team with guys that can execute plays.

Yeah--highly unlikely, but definitely a "That makes sense for both sides".

I just don't see LeBron leaving LA. When LeBron came to LA in 2019, he came in part because he wanted to move his family and life outside of basketball to the Meca of what he wanted for them and himself--producing and entrepreneurship for LeBron and excellent basketball developmental paths for his kids.

Focusing on the potential moves LA could do, pushing the needle for a Trae Young makes when looking at LA holistically and a player who helps both LeBron and AD offensively to immense degrees. LeBron finally gets his "Karl Malone" arc, this time as a P&R Roll Man who can pick and pop from 3 AND pass/create out of the short roll like no player ever before.

Another route [and perhaps more realistic] is simply re-tooling the role players and salaries around LeBron/AD. Dorian Finney-Smith or Grant Williams are interesting wing upgrades which the team desperately needs.

Interesting thing is that LeBron has been extremely complimentary of Diagneault, J-Will and SGA on his pod. I think he's praised OKC more than any other team in the NBA. I think he's at least looking at their situation and thinking about it.

[lessthanjake]

Buddy, I'm telling you the entire point of your post with regard to talent disparity is at best ignorant, and at worst ignorant AND made in bad faith. If you don't understand where and specifically why I'm disagreeing with you, then you need to hit the film room.

The Nuggets haven't even had to play an aggressive dialed up scheme yet in this series the way the Lakers have had to. Why do you think that is?

I think you might need to read my post again. It was mostly about important non-talent-related factors. Your reply to it then said my post was “stupid” for not talking about certain non-talent-related factors that my post actually had explicitly mentioned. To the extent I wrote about talent, my post was actually broadly consistent with your reply, since I specifically said the Nuggets have a talent advantage at the #3-5 roster spots (i.e. MPJ, Gordon, and KCP) and your post said that…the Nuggets had a talent advantage with MPJ, Gordon, and KCP. Like, this is just really bizarre stuff from you. I write a post where I basically say the Nuggets have a talent advantage with MPJ, Gordon, and KCP and also have an advantage in other areas including coaching. You then reply that my post is “stupid” because “The nuggets clearly have a supreme coaching advantage and 2-way talent advantage on the wings (KCP, MPJ, AG are an all time role player wing corp imo).” And when I point out that your reply had simply argued things that were actually consistent with my post, you then tell me that I’m “too stuck in the agenda,” am making “pathetic” and “obviously biased ignorant talking points,” and possess “stupidity” and cannot “even comprehend” the facts you have “clearly spelled out for [me]” and am instead “mak[ing] up narratives purely to make [myself] feel good.” When I once again pointed out that your response had made points that were not inconsistent with my post, you continue to tell me that my post was “at best ignorant, and at worst ignorant AND made in bad faith.” This is just bizarre behavior, and certainly feels like someone who simply wants to attack anything I post no matter what and who cannot help but litter around personal attacks in the process.

The entire point of your post is trying to make inane rambling conjectures on why the majority of the talent disparity between the two rosters is due to Jokic and I'm telling you that's the dumbest thing I've read today LMFAO. Stop trying to pretend you don't have the most transparent agenda in this thread. Which is rather incredible considering it's a LeBron thread filled with LeBron fans

The talent disparity is massive because top to bottom the Nuggets are better in every conceivable way. The only thing the Lakers have an advantage in with respect to this entire series is that LeBron is a better second option than Murray; and maybe that Phil Handy is probably better at his job than the nuggets' player development guy. Even that last point is debatable because Ham identified the other day in an interview that Phil Handy is in charge of the offense which would explain why when the going gets tough they resort to low IQ bucket-ball. And would also be indicative of the kind of low quality organization ran by shmucks the Lakers are that they would let a guy whose been coaching for decades and couldn't display enough Xs and Os chops to escape his player development tag fail upwards into mediocrity.

That's literally it. Everything else from the owner down to the 15th man solidly swings in favor of the nuggets and it's pathetic that you're a grown ass man crying this much when someone calls you out on your bulls***. That take is trash, and you trying to pretend we're saying the same thing while sidestepping the entire agenda you were trying to promote with regard to giving Jokic the lion's share of the credit for the talent disparity is outright gutless and disingenuous.

I don't have anything against you personally (hell, I've had productive back and forths with you before on this very forum LOL), surprised as you may be to hear that. I dislike people passive aggressively pushing an agenda using flawed logic that contradicts what's actually displayed on film and then trying to gaslight people who call them out on it into believing that they're the ones arguing in bad faith. This kind of shtick is just tasteless to me and I'm the type to call that kind of stuff out while getting irritated doing so. If you're gonna agenda-maxx at least say it with your chest like everyone else on this board does.

Also fwiw I think Jokic is one of the 3-5 best players to ever step on a floor and will likely serve as the future gatekeeper into the top 5 much like how Kobe is the eternal bar to substantially clear to make the top 10. I just think his support structure is one of the best I've ever seen, and part of that is a consequence of him being a 2nd round legend. But hey, even stuff like that is part of why he's so lucky lmao. It's too bad LeBron couldn't float under the radar in some rando Serbian league and quietly develop off the bench while the competent organization that discovered him loads up on talent and assets during his crucial early discount years.

Essentially everything here beyond the personal attacks is either stuff I didn’t/don’t disagree with or is just willfully ignoring the fact that I very explicitly identified the exact same non-Jokic talent disparity that you identified as the most important one, and also identified the Nuggets as being superior in non-talent-related areas (including specifically referring to the “coaching” factor that you have elaborated on). So, to the extent you think you’re disagreeing with me, you’re virtually entirely beating on a straw man (which you appear to have invented as a result of ascribing to me some sort of “transparent agenda”). The only possible disagreement I can see between what you say here and the post of mine that you called “stupid” and “pathetic” (among other insults) is that I said I think the Nuggets bench is “a relative weakness” while you seem to be asserting that you don’t agree with that (i.e. with your “down to the 15th man” comment). Otherwise, we agree that there’s a talent advantage for the Nuggets with Jokic, that the Lakers have a talent advantage with their second option, and that the Nuggets have a talent advantage with the 3rd-5th guys. I don’t agree with you regarding bench talent, but that’s a pretty minor difference (and, indeed, is minor enough that this is the first time you’ve even alluded to it, and we’re multiple posts into this exchange). I really think you should take a step back and survey the numerous personal attacks you’ve made in this exchange and consider whether it was within the realm of acceptable behavior. It wouldn’t be justified behavior even if you completely disagreed with everything I said or if I actually was pushing some “transparent agenda” that you keep trying to ascribe to me, but in light of the fact that there’s actually not much daylight at all between what we’re saying here, it is just stunning and genuinely bizarre behavior. In any event, I’m repeating myself here, and this is obviously not a substantively productive exchange, so I’d prefer to be done with it. I’d also prefer that you not behave like this towards me again, because this has been quite unpleasant and wildly uncalled for. In the future, it might help you to not read peoples’ posts through a filter in which you assume they have some sort of hidden bad faith agenda that makes you mad, and instead merely aim to respond to the actual words people have said.

[Heej]

I think you might need to read my post again. It was mostly about important non-talent-related factors. Your reply to it then said my post was “stupid” for not talking about certain non-talent-related factors that my post actually had explicitly mentioned. To the extent I wrote about talent, my post was actually broadly consistent with your reply, since I specifically said the Nuggets have a talent advantage at the #3-5 roster spots (i.e. MPJ, Gordon, and KCP) and your post said that…the Nuggets had a talent advantage with MPJ, Gordon, and KCP. Like, this is just really bizarre stuff from you. I write a post where I basically say the Nuggets have a talent advantage with MPJ, Gordon, and KCP and also have an advantage in other areas including coaching. You then reply that my post is “stupid” because “The nuggets clearly have a supreme coaching advantage and 2-way talent advantage on the wings (KCP, MPJ, AG are an all time role player wing corp imo).” And when I point out that your reply had simply argued things that were actually consistent with my post, you then tell me that I’m “too stuck in the agenda,” am making “pathetic” and “obviously biased ignorant talking points,” and possess “stupidity” and cannot “even comprehend” the facts you have “clearly spelled out for [me]” and am instead “mak[ing] up narratives purely to make [myself] feel good.” When I once again pointed out that your response had made points that were not inconsistent with my post, you continue to tell me that my post was “at best ignorant, and at worst ignorant AND made in bad faith.” This is just bizarre behavior, and certainly feels like someone who simply wants to attack anything I post no matter what and who cannot help but litter around personal attacks in the process.

The entire point of your post is trying to make inane rambling conjectures on why the majority of the talent disparity between the two rosters is due to Jokic and I'm telling you that's the dumbest thing I've read today LMFAO. Stop trying to pretend you don't have the most transparent agenda in this thread. Which is rather incredible considering it's a LeBron thread filled with LeBron fans

The talent disparity is massive because top to bottom the Nuggets are better in every conceivable way. The only thing the Lakers have an advantage in with respect to this entire series is that LeBron is a better second option than Murray; and maybe that Phil Handy is probably better at his job than the nuggets' player development guy. Even that last point is debatable because Ham identified the other day in an interview that Phil Handy is in charge of the offense which would explain why when the going gets tough they resort to low IQ bucket-ball. And would also be indicative of the kind of low quality organization ran by shmucks the Lakers are that they would let a guy whose been coaching for decades and couldn't display enough Xs and Os chops to escape his player development tag fail upwards into mediocrity.

That's literally it. Everything else from the owner down to the 15th man solidly swings in favor of the nuggets and it's pathetic that you're a grown ass man crying this much when someone calls you out on your bulls***. That take is trash, and you trying to pretend we're saying the same thing while sidestepping the entire agenda you were trying to promote with regard to giving Jokic the lion's share of the credit for the talent disparity is outright gutless and disingenuous.

I don't have anything against you personally (hell, I've had productive back and forths with you before on this very forum LOL), surprised as you may be to hear that. I dislike people passive aggressively pushing an agenda using flawed logic that contradicts what's actually displayed on film and then trying to gaslight people who call them out on it into believing that they're the ones arguing in bad faith. This kind of shtick is just tasteless to me and I'm the type to call that kind of stuff out while getting irritated doing so. If you're gonna agenda-maxx at least say it with your chest like everyone else on this board does.

Also fwiw I think Jokic is one of the 3-5 best players to ever step on a floor and will likely serve as the future gatekeeper into the top 5 much like how Kobe is the eternal bar to substantially clear to make the top 10. I just think his support structure is one of the best I've ever seen, and part of that is a consequence of him being a 2nd round legend. But hey, even stuff like that is part of why he's so lucky lmao. It's too bad LeBron couldn't float under the radar in some rando Serbian league and quietly develop off the bench while the competent organization that discovered him loads up on talent and assets during his crucial early discount years.

Essentially everything here beyond the personal attacks is either stuff I didn’t/don’t disagree with or is just willfully ignoring the fact that I very explicitly identified the exact same non-Jokic talent disparity that you identified as the most important one, and also identified the Nuggets as being superior in non-talent-related areas (including specifically referring to the “coaching” factor that you have elaborated on). So, to the extent you think you’re disagreeing with me, you’re virtually entirely beating on a straw man (which you appear to have invented as a result of ascribing to me some sort of “transparent agenda”). The only possible disagreement I can see between what you say here and the post of mine that you called “stupid” and “pathetic” (among other insults) is that I said I think the Nuggets bench is “a relative weakness” while you seem to be asserting that you don’t agree with that (i.e. with your “down to the 15th man” comment). Otherwise, we agree that there’s a talent advantage for the Nuggets with Jokic, that the Lakers have a talent advantage with their second option, and that the Nuggets have a talent advantage with the 3rd-5th guys. I don’t agree with you regarding bench talent, but that’s a pretty minor difference (and, indeed, is minor enough that this is the first time you’ve even alluded to it, and we’re multiple posts into this exchange). I really think you should take a step back and survey the numerous personal attacks you’ve made in this exchange and consider whether it was within the realm of acceptable behavior. It wouldn’t be justified behavior even if you completely disagreed with everything I said or if I actually was pushing some “transparent agenda” that you keep trying to ascribe to me, but in light of the fact that there’s actually not much daylight at all between what we’re saying here, it is just stunning. It’s genuinely bizarre behavior. In any event, I’m repeating myself here, and this is obviously not a substantively productive exchange, so I’d prefer to be done with it. I’d also prefer that you not behave like this towards me again, because this has been quite unpleasant and wildly uncalled for.

So sidestepping the main point I called you out on once again and then trying to reframe it as me being the one to argue in bad faith just as I also called you out on. I know you read my post and specifically what I'm taking issue with. That you tried to equate the talent differential mostly due to to the presence of Jokic. Which is stupid and nonsensical. If you insist on continuing to sidestep what I am taking issue with then stop crying about my responses or simply move on and know that everyone sees through this pathetic boy who cried Wolf shtick.

[lessthanjake]

The entire point of your post is trying to make inane rambling conjectures on why the majority of the talent disparity between the two rosters is due to Jokic and I'm telling you that's the dumbest thing I've read today LMFAO. Stop trying to pretend you don't have the most transparent agenda in this thread. Which is rather incredible considering it's a LeBron thread filled with LeBron fans

The talent disparity is massive because top to bottom the Nuggets are better in every conceivable way. The only thing the Lakers have an advantage in with respect to this entire series is that LeBron is a better second option than Murray; and maybe that Phil Handy is probably better at his job than the nuggets' player development guy. Even that last point is debatable because Ham identified the other day in an interview that Phil Handy is in charge of the offense which would explain why when the going gets tough they resort to low IQ bucket-ball. And would also be indicative of the kind of low quality organization ran by shmucks the Lakers are that they would let a guy whose been coaching for decades and couldn't display enough Xs and Os chops to escape his player development tag fail upwards into mediocrity.

That's literally it. Everything else from the owner down to the 15th man solidly swings in favor of the nuggets and it's pathetic that you're a grown ass man crying this much when someone calls you out on your bulls***. That take is trash, and you trying to pretend we're saying the same thing while sidestepping the entire agenda you were trying to promote with regard to giving Jokic the lion's share of the credit for the talent disparity is outright gutless and disingenuous.

I don't have anything against you personally (hell, I've had productive back and forths with you before on this very forum LOL), surprised as you may be to hear that. I dislike people passive aggressively pushing an agenda using flawed logic that contradicts what's actually displayed on film and then trying to gaslight people who call them out on it into believing that they're the ones arguing in bad faith. This kind of shtick is just tasteless to me and I'm the type to call that kind of stuff out while getting irritated doing so. If you're gonna agenda-maxx at least say it with your chest like everyone else on this board does.

Also fwiw I think Jokic is one of the 3-5 best players to ever step on a floor and will likely serve as the future gatekeeper into the top 5 much like how Kobe is the eternal bar to substantially clear to make the top 10. I just think his support structure is one of the best I've ever seen, and part of that is a consequence of him being a 2nd round legend. But hey, even stuff like that is part of why he's so lucky lmao. It's too bad LeBron couldn't float under the radar in some rando Serbian league and quietly develop off the bench while the competent organization that discovered him loads up on talent and assets during his crucial early discount years.

Essentially everything here beyond the personal attacks is either stuff I didn’t/don’t disagree with or is just willfully ignoring the fact that I very explicitly identified the exact same non-Jokic talent disparity that you identified as the most important one, and also identified the Nuggets as being superior in non-talent-related areas (including specifically referring to the “coaching” factor that you have elaborated on). So, to the extent you think you’re disagreeing with me, you’re virtually entirely beating on a straw man (which you appear to have invented as a result of ascribing to me some sort of “transparent agenda”). The only possible disagreement I can see between what you say here and the post of mine that you called “stupid” and “pathetic” (among other insults) is that I said I think the Nuggets bench is “a relative weakness” while you seem to be asserting that you don’t agree with that (i.e. with your “down to the 15th man” comment). Otherwise, we agree that there’s a talent advantage for the Nuggets with Jokic, that the Lakers have a talent advantage with their second option, and that the Nuggets have a talent advantage with the 3rd-5th guys. I don’t agree with you regarding bench talent, but that’s a pretty minor difference (and, indeed, is minor enough that this is the first time you’ve even alluded to it, and we’re multiple posts into this exchange). I really think you should take a step back and survey the numerous personal attacks you’ve made in this exchange and consider whether it was within the realm of acceptable behavior. It wouldn’t be justified behavior even if you completely disagreed with everything I said or if I actually was pushing some “transparent agenda” that you keep trying to ascribe to me, but in light of the fact that there’s actually not much daylight at all between what we’re saying here, it is just stunning. It’s genuinely bizarre behavior. In any event, I’m repeating myself here, and this is obviously not a substantively productive exchange, so I’d prefer to be done with it. I’d also prefer that you not behave like this towards me again, because this has been quite unpleasant and wildly uncalled for.

So sidestepping the main point I called you out on once again and then trying to reframe it as me being the one to argue in bad faith just as I also called you out on. I know you read my post and specifically what I'm taking issue with. That you tried to equate the talent differential mostly due to to the presence of Jokic. Which is stupid and nonsensical. If you insist on continuing to sidestep what I am taking issue with then stop crying about my responses or simply move on and know that everyone sees through this pathetic boy who cried Wolf shtick.

Oh my god, you can’t seem to help yourself. Like, stop with the insults. It’s unreal. You need to take a step back and realize that your behavior is completely unacceptable whether you actually disagree with me or not. This is a discussion about basketball, and you’re out here getting cartoonishly worked up and repeatedly hurling insults in post after post because you appear to maybe have a rather esoteric disagreement about talent evaluation. Get a grip.

Anyways, you are not a model of clarity, but at this point, as best I can tell, the only thing I can think of is that you are focusing entirely on one part of one sentence in the long post I made, in which I said: “I think there’s not a huge talent gap between the two teams (and to the extent there is, it’s largely just because of Jokic).” As an initial matter, the thing you are objecting to was very plainly not “the entire point of [my] post” as you seem to have called it earlier, since it’s literally a throwaway that I put in parentheses. Pro tip: People don’t tend to put the “entire point” of what they are saying in one random parenthetical. So, basically, you seem to be hurling insults left and right in post after post because you’re upset about a throwaway line in a parenthetical of a very long post. That by itself is breathtaking. In any event, on the substance of it, I would say that Jokic definitely is a major factor in the talent evaluation between the teams and very well might be the thing that’d tip the balance to make one define the talent gap as “huge.” That’s all I’m saying there. I wasn’t making some sort of complicated evaluation of exactly what percent of a talent gap comes from where. Again, it was a throwaway parenthetical, which you’ve obviously latched onto way too much—perhaps because you wanted to make an insulting response to me but didn’t disagree with 95% of what I’d said. And it doesn’t even seem you disagree that Jokic carries a significant talent gap in the series, since you just wrote that you think “Jokic is one of the 3-5 best players to ever step on a floor” and I very much doubt you’d say Anthony Davis is close to that. So like, are you justifying your parade of insults by saying you disagree with the substance of a short parenthetical that you don’t even fully disagree with? Like would you rather I said “in significant part” instead of “largely”? Would that stop this tantrum? I’m happy to edit my post to say that instead if it’d make you finally stop this, especially given that it wouldn’t really change my intended meaning at all.

[Heej]

Essentially everything here beyond the personal attacks is either stuff I didn’t/don’t disagree with or is just willfully ignoring the fact that I very explicitly identified the exact same non-Jokic talent disparity that you identified as the most important one, and also identified the Nuggets as being superior in non-talent-related areas (including specifically referring to the “coaching” factor that you have elaborated on). So, to the extent you think you’re disagreeing with me, you’re virtually entirely beating on a straw man (which you appear to have invented as a result of ascribing to me some sort of “transparent agenda”). The only possible disagreement I can see between what you say here and the post of mine that you called “stupid” and “pathetic” (among other insults) is that I said I think the Nuggets bench is “a relative weakness” while you seem to be asserting that you don’t agree with that (i.e. with your “down to the 15th man” comment). Otherwise, we agree that there’s a talent advantage for the Nuggets with Jokic, that the Lakers have a talent advantage with their second option, and that the Nuggets have a talent advantage with the 3rd-5th guys. I don’t agree with you regarding bench talent, but that’s a pretty minor difference (and, indeed, is minor enough that this is the first time you’ve even alluded to it, and we’re multiple posts into this exchange). I really think you should take a step back and survey the numerous personal attacks you’ve made in this exchange and consider whether it was within the realm of acceptable behavior. It wouldn’t be justified behavior even if you completely disagreed with everything I said or if I actually was pushing some “transparent agenda” that you keep trying to ascribe to me, but in light of the fact that there’s actually not much daylight at all between what we’re saying here, it is just stunning. It’s genuinely bizarre behavior. In any event, I’m repeating myself here, and this is obviously not a substantively productive exchange, so I’d prefer to be done with it. I’d also prefer that you not behave like this towards me again, because this has been quite unpleasant and wildly uncalled for.

So sidestepping the main point I called you out on once again and then trying to reframe it as me being the one to argue in bad faith just as I also called you out on. I know you read my post and specifically what I'm taking issue with. That you tried to equate the talent differential mostly due to to the presence of Jokic. Which is stupid and nonsensical. If you insist on continuing to sidestep what I am taking issue with then stop crying about my responses or simply move on and know that everyone sees through this pathetic boy who cried Wolf shtick.

Oh my god, you can’t seem to help yourself. Like, stop with the insults. It’s unreal. You need to take a step back and realize that your behavior is completely unacceptable whether you actually disagree with me or not. This is a discussion about basketball, and you’re out here getting cartoonishly worked up and repeatedly hurling insults in post after post because you appear to maybe have a rather esoteric disagreement about talent evaluation. Get a grip.

Anyways, you are not a model of clarity, but at this point, as best I can tell, the only thing I can think of is that you are focusing entirely on one part of one sentence in the long post I made, in which I said: “The bottom line is that I think there’s not a huge talent gap between the two teams (and to the extent there is, it’s largely just because of Jokic).” As an initial matter, the thing you are objecting to was very plainly not “the entire point of [my] post” as you seem to have called it earlier, since it’s literally a throwaway that I put in parentheses. Pro tip: People don’t tend to put the “entire point” of what they are saying in one random parenthetical. So, basically, you seem to be hurling insults left and right in post after post because you’re upset about a throwaway line in a parenthetical of a very long post. That by itself is breathtaking. In any event, on the substance of it, I would say that Jokic definitely is a major factor in the talent evaluation between the teams and very well might be the thing that’d tip the balance to make one define the talent gap as “huge.” That’s all I’m saying there. I wasn’t making some sort of complicated evaluation of exactly what percent of a talent gap comes from where. Again, it was a throwaway parenthetical, which you’ve obviously latched onto way too much—perhaps because you wanted to make an insulting response to me but didn’t disagree with 95% of what I’d said. And it doesn’t even seem you disagree that Jokic carries a significant talent gap in the series, since you just wrote that you think “Jokic is one of the 3-5 best players to ever step on a floor” and I very much doubt you’d say Anthony Davis is close to that. So like, are you justifying your parade of insults by saying you disagree with the substance of a short parenthetical that you don’t even fully disagree with? Like would you rather I said “in significant part” instead of “largely”? Would that stop this tantrum? I’m happy to edit my post to say that instead if it’d make you finally stop this, especially given that it wouldn’t really change my intended meaning.

Oh I see, so now we're just going to deflect and say it was one random point in a long post. Even though you tried to go out of your way to equate the team's demeanor to Jokic's mental makeup, and their efficacy to his style of play and statute as a player. Sure thing pal, everyone believes you when you say it's a one-off statement and not the main agenda you were trying to push in regards to the talent differential. Good one.

Also spare us all the lecturing nobody cares when a disingenuous post gets called out and the poster cries Wolf. We all know what you were trying to do and we also all know that it's just a really bad point to try and make. Don't get upset when people call you out on it, and certainly don't try to deflect and backtrack from it when pressed further. All that stuff is something someone who intentionally debates in bad faith would do. After all, you're not like that. Right?

Regarding everything else, I don't think Jokic has drastically outplayed AD at all. Jokic is a top 3-5 guy ever but I've noted in other threads that AD at his absolute apex when he's firing on all cylinders on both ends of the floor literally is a GOAT peak contender if we're talking a 1-3 game stretch. And this is exemplified by the fact that he's essentially playing Jokic to a standstill when you consider how much he's cleaning up on defense and on the boards for the Lakers.

Jokic isn't the driving force for this difference or the one that tips the scales towards it being an overwhelming difference. The Nuggets are just really f***ing good and the Lakers are just really f***ing average despite AD and Bron's finest efforts. Even last year it was Murray who was the difference maker that series because he randomly shot like he was the best player in the world for that 4 game stretch. And this year we're seeing the reversion to the mean I predicted.

[GSP]

lol if both KD & LBJ go down 0-3,

It happened.............Steph and Cp3 missed playoffs. Kawhi and Harden getting sonned by Luka.

2020 era is officially here. The 2010s Nba is dead

[lessthanjake]

You can play smart and hard, generate open shots and still lose, or you can play like Dlo and Rui. Your starting SF can't have 10 rebounds and 0 stocks in 97 minutes of play. I'm not even talking about the offense. You can miss shots, it happens. But a stater on a playoff team should do something else besides scoring, and these guys can't

I think that’s right—Rui has not done well on the boards in these games. But is that happening because Rui is a bad player, or is it happening because he’s facing a really good team that makes it particularly tough in this regard? Remember, the Nuggets are like the best contested-rebound team in the league (in large part due to Jokic, but Gordon and others contribute here too). They make it hard for opposing players to contribute in that regard (and indeed, LeBron has had trouble on the boards too!). Just because a role player doesn’t do well in a series doesn’t mean they’re a bad or untalented player. If a role player would always do well, they wouldn’t be a role player!

Ok, but shouldn't the bar be higher for a starter? He has 3 more points in the series than Peyton Watson

To some extent, yes, but role players don’t always play well (if they always played well, they wouldn’t be role players!), so in any given series there’s likely to be some role player(s) on a given team that do not play well, and that’s especially true in a series against a superior team. Perhaps if they played the series over again, Rui would play fine but Taurean Prince wouldn’t play as well as he has. Or maybe both would play well, or both would play badly. With role players there’s just a good deal of variance. A bad series from a role player doesn’t mean they’re actually bad players. And, again, in this instance it is compounded by the fact that Rui has a particularly tough ask here, since a lot of what he’s being asked to do is directly opposing major strengths for the Nuggets. He’s being asked to rebound against an elite contested-rebounding team, and he’s taking the Jokic assignment defensively a decent bit. This is not easy, and a solid NBA player can pretty easily look bad in those circumstances.

[OhayoKD]

Huge LeBron fan but I gotta be objective with this realizations

1. Jokic may actually be peaking higher than LBJ (at least on offense). It’s pretty close

2. Jokic is doing this with traditionally less help than LeBron in a tougher conference

Jokic's been one of my favorite players since way back when Nurkic was still on the Nuggets with him, but this still feels like a wild overreaction. LeBron has dragged some worse supporting casts than Jokic's ever played with to the Finals.

In the East

Lebron James took a 66-win Western team to 6 in a down year without his 2nd and 3rd best player a series after sweeping a 60-win team with 48 minutes of the 2nd best player. There is no "carrying teams" argument for Jokic against early 30's Lebron and Jokic does not compare to Lebron in any empirical standard that is removed from specific box-inputs or one-year on/off(if you ignore the postseason)

If Jokic was actually on this level, you would not need to be using his performance against a 39 year old Lebron as your benchmark

kyrie...but it was clear that it was more just an incredible amalgamation of talent a

The Nuggets without Jokic were better than the Cavs without Lebron and Kyrie's next team saw minimal improvement when Kyrie played. Reality would suggest what you considered "clear" was not really true.

Jamal Murray is not an all-NBA player. He has played like one in some playoff series, but that’s not what he is overall IMO and that’s *definitely* not what he has played like in this series.

He has played like one in the playoffs since 2020 on average and played like one for the two playoff runs the Nuggets were remotely relevant. If the Nuggets make a deep run this postseason without Jamal playing like an all-nba player we can revisit things, but the Nuggets have close to no track record of being very good without Jamal playing all-nba basketball.

As has been noted, and you ignored, Murray takes the toughest selection of shots of anyone on the Nuggets and Miami and the Lakers have focused on limiting Murray. Without Murray's track record as a superstar or superstar adjacent playoff performer, the Nuggets would not look nearly as good as they currently they do.

 

You simply cannot help but fall back on amorphous “coaching advantage” arguments. For you, everything is always about LeBron having a coaching disadvantage and other great players in history being compared to LeBron having a coaching advantage

The other players I've seen mentioned as having a coaching advantage vs Lebron by Heej are

-> Jordan, who has the easiest to quantify coaching advantage in the history of the sport (run away lead in coach rapm, 5 championships without, 1990 mid-season srs jump, surprisingly good results without jordan, results without jordan and pippen, results without jordan and grant, dramatically less successful when removed)

-> Curry, who has one of the easiest to quantify coaching advantages in the history of the sport (2014 vs 2015, several playoff series won without)

Both are dramatically less "amorphous" than your assertions that

A. Lebron struggles more to fit with star teammates than either
B. Murray's playoff jump is a result of a jump in how much easier Jokic makes things for Murray in the playoffs
C. These teams are similarly talented

Please stop projecting. The main source of motivated reasoning on this thread(and really, this board) is you.

[TheGOATRises007]

lol if both KD & LBJ go down 0-3,

It happened.............Steph and Cp3 missed playoffs. Kawhi and Harden getting sonned by Luka.

2020 era is officially here. The 2010s Nba is dead

Feels somewhat surreal to be honest, but father time is undefeated.

LeBron is still a top 10 player. I don't think Steph is nowadays and I don't think KD is either(or he's on the cusp of it).

[Mos_Heat]

I think that’s right—Rui has not done well on the boards in these games. But is that happening because Rui is a bad player, or is it happening because he’s facing a really good team that makes it particularly tough in this regard? Remember, the Nuggets are like the best contested-rebound team in the league (in large part due to Jokic, but Gordon and others contribute here too). They make it hard for opposing players to contribute in that regard (and indeed, LeBron has had trouble on the boards too!). Just because a role player doesn’t do well in a series doesn’t mean they’re a bad or untalented player. If a role player would always do well, they wouldn’t be a role player!

Ok, but shouldn't the bar be higher for a starter? He has 3 more points in the series than Peyton Watson

To some extent, yes, but role players don’t always play well (if they always played well, they wouldn’t be role players!), so in any given series there’s likely to be some role player(s) on a given team that do not play well, and that’s especially true in a series against a superior team. Perhaps if they played the series over again, Rui would play fine but Taurean Prince wouldn’t play as well as he has. Or maybe both would play well, or both would play badly. With role players there’s just a good deal of variance. A bad series from a role player doesn’t mean they’re actually bad players. And, again, in this instance it is compounded by the fact that Rui has a particularly tough ask here, since a lot of what he’s being asked to do is directly opposing major strengths for the Nuggets. He’s being asked to rebound against an elite contested-rebounding team, and he’s taking the Jokic assignment defensively a decent bit. This is not easy, and a solid NBA player can pretty easily look bad in those circumstances.

I'm sorry I don't get what are you saying here. 6'9 sturdy guy can't rebound against the Nuggets, fine. What can he do otherwise? Not a high iq or high intensity guy, not efficient in iso, has been missing a lot of open 3s and lay ups. Not a screen setter. Sounds like a bottom tier playoff player to me.

Same applies for Dlo. And if that's your 2 starters you won't win against top level teams

[TroubleS0me]

lol if both KD & LBJ go down 0-3,

It happened.............Steph and Cp3 missed playoffs. Kawhi and Harden getting sonned by Luka.

2020 era is officially here. The 2010s Nba is dead

Feels somewhat surreal to be honest, but father time is undefeated.

LeBron is still a top 10 player. I don't think Steph is nowadays and I don't think KD is either(or he's on the cusp of it).

Yup new era is here. LBJ & KD are still top 10 tho but not Steph.

[Ian Scuffling]

Ok, but shouldn't the bar be higher for a starter? He has 3 more points in the series than Peyton Watson

To some extent, yes, but role players don’t always play well (if they always played well, they wouldn’t be role players!), so in any given series there’s likely to be some role player(s) on a given team that do not play well, and that’s especially true in a series against a superior team. Perhaps if they played the series over again, Rui would play fine but Taurean Prince wouldn’t play as well as he has. Or maybe both would play well, or both would play badly. With role players there’s just a good deal of variance. A bad series from a role player doesn’t mean they’re actually bad players. And, again, in this instance it is compounded by the fact that Rui has a particularly tough ask here, since a lot of what he’s being asked to do is directly opposing major strengths for the Nuggets. He’s being asked to rebound against an elite contested-rebounding team, and he’s taking the Jokic assignment defensively a decent bit. This is not easy, and a solid NBA player can pretty easily look bad in those circumstances.

I'm sorry I don't get what are you saying here. 6'9 sturdy guy can't rebound against the Nuggets, fine. What can he do otherwise? Not a high iq or high intensity guy, not efficient in iso, has been missing a lot of open 3s and lay ups. Not a screen setter. Sounds like a bottom tier playoff player to me.

Same applies for Dlo. And if that's your 2 starters you won't win against top level teams

Well said. But dude here is so invested in building up the help just to tear down Lebron, he can't go back. James haters standard MO. Other than the Dallas series, where James did indeed, for some unknown reason, **** his pants, they have no arrows in their quiver. So, they concoct the dumbest, most inane and incomprehensible attempts to discredit him. Been going on for 21 years, now. They don't even realize they're reinforcing his greatness by their incessant and constant ankle biting and sniping. But, again, they're not the brightest, so you'll have that

[lessthanjake]

To some extent, yes, but role players don’t always play well (if they always played well, they wouldn’t be role players!), so in any given series there’s likely to be some role player(s) on a given team that do not play well, and that’s especially true in a series against a superior team. Perhaps if they played the series over again, Rui would play fine but Taurean Prince wouldn’t play as well as he has. Or maybe both would play well, or both would play badly. With role players there’s just a good deal of variance. A bad series from a role player doesn’t mean they’re actually bad players. And, again, in this instance it is compounded by the fact that Rui has a particularly tough ask here, since a lot of what he’s being asked to do is directly opposing major strengths for the Nuggets. He’s being asked to rebound against an elite contested-rebounding team, and he’s taking the Jokic assignment defensively a decent bit. This is not easy, and a solid NBA player can pretty easily look bad in those circumstances.

I'm sorry I don't get what are you saying here. 6'9 sturdy guy can't rebound against the Nuggets, fine. What can he do otherwise? Not a high iq or high intensity guy, not efficient in iso, has been missing a lot of open 3s and lay ups. Not a screen setter. Sounds like a bottom tier playoff player to me.

Same applies for Dlo. And if that's your 2 starters you won't win against top level teams

Well said. But dude here is so invested in building up the help just to tear down Lebron, he can't go back. James haters standard MO. Other than the Dallas series, where James did indeed, for some unknown reason, **** his pants, they have no arrows in their quiver. So, they concoct the dumbest, most inane and incomprehensible attempts to discredit him. Been going on for 21 years, now. They don't even realize they're reinforcing his greatness by their incessant and constant ankle biting and sniping. But, again, they're not the brightest, so you'll have that

This is such an odd accusation, when one of the major reasons I’ve expressed for why I don’t think the talent gap between the two teams is really huge is precisely that I think LeBron has a big talent gap as the second option. Like, my point is in significant part a compliment to LeBron! It feels like people don’t read posts or think about what they mean before responding with accusatory responses. Thinking LeBron is still a good enough player at age 39 that he can be the main factor that makes the talent gap not huge when I’m otherwise explicitly saying that the Nuggets have a talent advantage at every other part of the starting lineup is really quite the opposite of “tear[ing] down Lebron.” I think people get way too focused on paranoidly thinking that those they don’t always agree with are engaging in jujitsu mind games in subtle service of some hidden agenda, instead of just thinking about what is actually being said.