The LeBron James- 23-24 NBA Playoffs & Off-Season Thread -(NO PERSONAL ATTACKS & BAITING)

[Mos_Heat]

I honestly think retirement is near, and I didn’t believe him for a second last year. That’s a broken man right there. He doesn't have any fire left after this.

Doubt he retires without a retirement tour.

That Westbrook trade is truly killing the Lakers from a contention POV. And not re-signing Caruso was stupid.

I disagree. LAL don't wanna go all in on AD/Lebron duo even though they have their opportunities. But they didn't go all in on Kyrie, on Turner/Hield package, they drafted a guard who won't play significant minutes maybe ever, they didn't do anything at the deadline. They kept Ham after the team quit on him

[zimpy27]

I honestly don’t think Denver is that good. They just have a guy who’s probably top 10 ever in impact, good role players and competent coaching. They aren’t some unbeatable juggernaut. Ham just makes them look like one because he can’t counter adjustments. Or maybe he can but he sure doesn’t try to.

They are an excellent team. They will go back to back.

Joker is a great hub
Murray is an elite iso player and plays better when it means more
Gordon is an athletic marvel that can do all
MPJ is closest player to Durant we have in terms of unguardable tall sniper
KCP was the missing piece in terms of tall 3+D guard.

Bench is average sure. That's the weakness but starting 5 is as good as any team I've seen besides KD Warriors.

[AmIWrongDude]

I didn’t say the Nuggets weren’t a legitimate title team. I said they’re not as good as Ham makes them appear. He shouldn’t have got swept this year and he shouldn’t be down 3-0 now. Going 5-6 games against this team is a reasonable ask with the roster he has.

100% agree. The Lakers aren’t far away from beating them and at this point it’s proven that Ham is way out of his depth.

He is literally the worst coach in the league.

[AmIWrongDude]

I know this is another beatdown but I still think even old Bron and AD could beat the nuggets if they just had a better built team and competent coaching.

As great as Jokic and Murray are, it’s absolutely crystal clear that Denver’s role players, size, scheme, and coaching is LEVELS above LA’s. It’s not even close.

I mean LA’s 3rd best player scored 0 points in a do or die game lol. A guy that should’ve been traded but wasn’t because he puts up 30 against the Hornets and Wizards in the regular season.

This team has very few winning players when it matters. Winning players aka KCP and Gordon that know their roles and have huge effects on the game without even scoring and when they do it’s gravy.

Having the worst coach in the league makes it impossible to win without an all star team. 0 adjustments and the players clearly don’t believe in him (AD LITERALLY SCREAMED IT FROM THE MOUNTAINTOP) yet this was known and the front office did nothing about it.

Everyone deserves blame including Bron and AD but it’s clear the rot starts at the top with Jeannie and Rob and there’s 0 accountability.

LeBron’s issue is just his motor at this point but that is heightened when he still has to be the main playmaker and 1A/1B scorer because he doesn’t get fed for easy looks as much as AD.

They need him to defend and rebound like younger Bron to have a chance and he simply can’t do that anymore but he wouldn’t have to if they had quality role players doing what championship team role players do: hit open 3’s, defend, and rebound.

I hope LeBron leaves LA and makes one more 2 or so year push to win again. It’s clear LA’s front office is in shambles.

You just don't get it. LeBron and AD simply ain't it anymore


(Empty stats)


Ignore this


...and this. Just mediocre players unlocked by Joker's genius
(Box score watching, I know)

Yep but u know the narrative is going to be that Bron is too old and should retire and AD is empty stats. Even Laker fans are running with it.

Jokic is nothing short of amazing and Murray is great too but idk how anyone can watch this series and not have the main takeaway be that that Denver’s supporting players and the massive gap in coaching quality is the difference between the 2 teams. It couldn’t be more evident.

[AmIWrongDude]

Im curious how he comes out game 4. Last year he proved why hes Goat elimination game player putting up 40,10,9 in a 2pt loss..........will he come out guns blazing or will this be more like 18 Warriors where he and Cavs just came out to game 4 already given up?

I would be shocked if he doesn’t come out flat. I would bet on him to go off if him going off in a game 4 loss last year didn’t already happen.

I really hope he goes out on his shield but I think losing so many in a row to the Nugs has killed his spirit. Hope I’m wrong.

[McBubbles]

How did people talk themselves into thinking that Lebron, AD, several mediocre starters and a bad coach could beat the Nuggets? This same fever happened last year and it didn't make anymore sense then either.

B/c we are wishful lol

But also were up 15 and 20 the last 2 games on the road and the refs favoring Denver....

Blowing back to back 15 and 20 point leads to extend an 8 game losing streak made you hopeful ?

A lot of us in the regular season thread had been spending the last several months talking about how this team only has two starters with everyone outside of Lebron and AD being on route to regress to garbage once the playoffs started, and about how Ham would get cooked. Then all of a sudden I start seeing people say things like this would go 7. Just confused about the several months of pessimism turning into optimism I guess lol, all well. Not trying to be a party pooper, just genuinely surprised.

[Statlanta]

I know this is another beatdown but I still think even old Bron and AD could beat the nuggets if they just had a better built team and competent coaching.

If you remove Davis and/or James, whilst also removing other teams top 1/2, where would this Lakers team rank among role player casts.

Same with Ham. How many coaches is he really worse than?

[AmIWrongDude]

I know this is another beatdown but I still think even old Bron and AD could beat the nuggets if they just had a better built team and competent coaching.

If you remove Davis and/or James, whilst also removing other teams top 1/2, where would this Lakers team rank among role player casts.

Same with Ham. How many coaches is he really worse than?

The first part, I’d have to think about.

I truly believe Ham is AT BEST a bottom 5 coach. He’s terrible at so many things but I won’t even get started on those. I’ll stick to the most blatantly obvious:

Ham treated the regular season like it was spring training even after they barely made the play-in last year. He refused to play the lineups that completely turned around their season last year and got them to the WCF and the worst part is he benched guys like Reaves and Rui for Cam Reddish of all people.

The lakers went on a huge losing streak after the mid season tournament and a large part of it was Ham tinkering with lineups all the time and favoring guys like Reddish and Prince who he coached before. Prince was playing LeBron minutes for stretches.

Once they went back to the lineups that got them to the WCF last year, they started winning again. He basically killed the season by refusing to go with the easy solution in front of his face (using what worked last year) and that is why the Lakers (with a largely healthy Bron and Ad for the season) got the 7 seed and are getting their asses kicked.

He gave the team no shot this year. That’s totally on him.

[RCM88x]

The Lakers 3-8 really aren't great but I don't think that they're really any different from any other teams 3-8 except for the Nuggets. I'd probably put them on a similar level to Dallas' or even Phoenix's groups too, maybe that isn't saying much but I don't think they're some horrendous group. They're just getting dominated by the Nuggets, I think that's really what it comes down to. Unfortunate for them they've played them 9 straight times in the playoffs, I think they'd have a good chance against anyone else really. The rest of the playoffs will give us some good insight on how good this Nuggets team actually is, I could definitely see them only dropping 1-2 games before the Finals which would be extremely impressive given the depth of the West this year.

[Mos_Heat]

The Lakers 3-8 really aren't great but I don't think that they're really any different from any other teams 3-8 except for the Nuggets. I'd probably put them on a similar level to Dallas' or even Phoenix's groups too, maybe that isn't saying much but I don't think they're some horrendous group. They're just getting dominated by the Nuggets, I think that's really what it comes down to. Unfortunate for them they've played them 9 straight times in the playoffs, I think they'd have a good chance against anyone else really. The rest of the playoffs will give us some good insight on how good this Nuggets team actually is, I could definitely see them only dropping 1-2 games before the Finals which would be extremely impressive given the depth of the West this year.

I agree with the Suns and to a digree with the Mavs but Minny's 3-8 is miles better

[RCM88x]

The Lakers 3-8 really aren't great but I don't think that they're really any different from any other teams 3-8 except for the Nuggets. I'd probably put them on a similar level to Dallas' or even Phoenix's groups too, maybe that isn't saying much but I don't think they're some horrendous group. They're just getting dominated by the Nuggets, I think that's really what it comes down to. Unfortunate for them they've played them 9 straight times in the playoffs, I think they'd have a good chance against anyone else really. The rest of the playoffs will give us some good insight on how good this Nuggets team actually is, I could definitely see them only dropping 1-2 games before the Finals which would be extremely impressive given the depth of the West this year.

I agree with the Suns and to a digree with the Mavs but Minny's 3-8 is miles better

Why do you disagree with the Mav, I actually feel pretty confident that their group is worse than the Suns and Lakers group is. Minny also has a much worse top 2 than the Lakers IMO, no matter which 2 of the their big 3 you chose, so I don't think it's really a fair comparison there. Even so, playoff KAT has never been impressive.

[The-Power]

The Lakers 3-8 really aren't great but I don't think that they're really any different from any other teams 3-8 except for the Nuggets. I'd probably put them on a similar level to Dallas' or even Phoenix's groups too, maybe that isn't saying much but I don't think they're some horrendous group. They're just getting dominated by the Nuggets, I think that's really what it comes down to. Unfortunate for them they've played them 9 straight times in the playoffs, I think they'd have a good chance against anyone else really. The rest of the playoffs will give us some good insight on how good this Nuggets team actually is, I could definitely see them only dropping 1-2 games before the Finals which would be extremely impressive given the depth of the West this year.

The Nuggets probably have the best 3-5 but their 6-8 is pretty pedestrian. Depending on how you weigh it I can see other teams having a similarly deep roster (I suppose we are talking about the West here because otherwise the Celtics are clearly ahead of everyone else).

I don't disagree, though, that the Lakers roster isn't that bad and that they project to be a tough out for any opponent (save perhaps the Nuggets but even they aren't running circles around them).

[1993Playoffs]

Huge LeBron fan but I gotta be objective with this realizations

1. Jokic may actually be peaking higher than LBJ (at least on offense). It’s pretty close

2. Jokic is doing this with traditionally less help than LeBron in a tougher conference

[Mos_Heat]

The Lakers 3-8 really aren't great but I don't think that they're really any different from any other teams 3-8 except for the Nuggets. I'd probably put them on a similar level to Dallas' or even Phoenix's groups too, maybe that isn't saying much but I don't think they're some horrendous group. They're just getting dominated by the Nuggets, I think that's really what it comes down to. Unfortunate for them they've played them 9 straight times in the playoffs, I think they'd have a good chance against anyone else really. The rest of the playoffs will give us some good insight on how good this Nuggets team actually is, I could definitely see them only dropping 1-2 games before the Finals which would be extremely impressive given the depth of the West this year.

I agree with the Suns and to a digree with the Mavs but Minny's 3-8 is miles better

Why do you disagree with the Mav, I actually feel pretty confident that their group is worse than the Suns and Lakers group is. Minny also has a much worse top 2 than the Lakers IMO, no matter which 2 of the their big 3 you chose, so I don't think it's really a fair comparison there. Even so, playoff KAT has never been impressive.

I like Mavs group in the playoffs setting more than La's

KAT, McDaniels, Conley, Reid and NAW is way better than Reaves, Russell, Hachimura, Vincent and Dinwidee. Wolves guys more skilled and simply bigger than Lakers role players. Rui has 15 points and 10 boards in 97 minutes of play in the series, cmon. I' m also not so sure that the gap between Ant/Rudy and AD/Lebron is that significant.

[PistolPeteJR]

...wow thought they had it.
welp this will be the 4th time LBJ has been swept in his career.

Jordan got swept 3x times.

Not that this matters at all, but you gotta look at it from a ratio standpoint, not raw numbers.

[CzBoobie]

Huge LeBron fan but I gotta be objective with this realizations

1. Jokic may actually be peaking higher than LBJ (at least on offense). It’s pretty close

2. Jokic is doing this with traditionally less help than LeBron in a tougher conference

Prime LeBron would lose max 2 games of those 7 played between them in these last two series.

[EmpireFalls]

Huge LeBron fan but I gotta be objective with this realizations

1. Jokic may actually be peaking higher than LBJ (at least on offense). It’s pretty close

2. Jokic is doing this with traditionally less help than LeBron in a tougher conference

On offense I actually agree with you

However, I like to think that a starting 5, as in all 5 players, is consistently underrated and the “top guy” is consistently overrated. Denver’s actual starting 5 is amazing, the Murray-AG-MPJ trio is really really really good and multifaceted. The fit is perfect. There will be a lot of “Jokic didn’t even need an All-Star” to win stuff and that’s fair, but I also think it highly undersells just how good AG and the rest have been.

[AEnigma]

Huge LeBron fan but I gotta be objective with this realizations

1. Jokic may actually be peaking higher than LBJ

I think it is wild that you are saying this in a series where Jokic’s main advantage over Lebron is that he has better endurance than the 39-year-old.

(at least on offense). It’s pretty close

Sure, but Lebron being able to play with centres gives his teams a much higher defensive ceiling.

2. Jokic is doing this with traditionally less help than LeBron

Based on what. Jamal is at least as good offensively in the playoffs as Kyrie without being as targetable defensively, and whenever Jokic has not had Jamal his teams have gone nowhere and been easy eliminations. Gordon is a fringe all-star talent on par with multiple-time all-NBA players like Siakam and Randle (former deserved, latter not deserved), MPJ is an incredible third option, and KCP was the third best player on a Lakers team that peaked higher than these Nuggets.

Oh, and the Nuggets right now have a better full coaching staff than any Lebron ever had at the time.

in a tougher conference

Lebron never meaningfully struggled with western conference regular season games, and Jokic has only won one series where he was operating at a theoretical disadvantage (2020 Clippers).

I think Shaq is pretty overrated, but at least he regularly won at a 60-win pace — peaking at 67 wins with a pre-prime Kobe and a scattering of (reliable) roleplayers — en route to three Finals MVPs and five title runs as a leader… and I would not even be considering him over Lebron either.

[Ian Scuffling]

Welp, about what I expected so far. AD playing great, James playing very well and then...Rui **** his pants all series. AR being very mid at the best and then there's DLO. Just a terrible, terrible playoff performer. They're playing the defending champs, and still best team in the association, so a sweep is what I expected. And please stop with the comaprisons. Yes, Jokic is the best player in the league. That's fairly obvious, but he doesn't have nor has ever had the responsibility that James had in his prime. Recency bias certainly is a real thing. Even in his prime, being the main defensive player and the focal point and driver of the offense took energy. Tons of energy. As great as Jokic is, he's never had the same TOTAL responsibility as Lebron. This team outside of AD and Lebron just isn't that talented. Plus, throw in that coach and well you get the point. Again, father time is undefeated. Lebron's first halves have been all world. But, it seems he has little left in the 2nd halves and that is all due to age. Against this team, that is not enough. Oh well. The future is interesting in regards to James' decisions. If he stays, though it's already seemed this way, he just doesn't prioritze winning as much as he once did. That's his prerogative and he's earned it.

[JLei]

I honestly don’t think Denver is that good. They just have a guy who’s probably top 10 ever in impact, good role players and competent coaching. They aren’t some unbeatable juggernaut. Ham just makes them look like one because he can’t counter adjustments. Or maybe he can but he sure doesn’t try to.

They are an excellent team. They will go back to back.

Joker is a great hub
Murray is an elite iso player and plays better when it means more
Gordon is an athletic marvel that can do all
MPJ is closest player to Durant we have in terms of unguardable tall sniper
KCP was the missing piece in terms of tall 3+D guard.

Bench is average sure. That's the weakness but starting 5 is as good as any team I've seen besides KD Warriors.

It's all relative to your competition. We came off a decade of superteams basically so if that's your comparison than yah they are probably still one of the weaker champions in the past decade.

I've kind of done the exercise and evaluated all the past champions and contenders and they are stronger than the 2022 Warriors and that's about it.

Like if you think Jamal Murray is an All-NBA player and Aaron Gordon and Michael Porter Jr are sub-allstars then maybe that gets them to a 2020 Lakers/ 2019 Raptors level. I don't think they are that good though.