Rank these players offensively (peak): Magic, Jordan, LeBron, Curry, Jokic

[IdolW0rm]

Jokic might be the greatest screen-setter ever.

This is probably Unseld.

[Peregrine01]

Jokic might be the greatest screen-setter ever.

This is probably Unseld.

As far as brick wall screens there might not be anyone as good as Steven Adams. But Jokic leverages his scoring and playmaking with his screen-setting and vice versa in a way like no one ever has.

[Rishkar]

1. Jokic
1.5. {Nash}
2. Magic
gap
3. Jordan
4. Lebron
5. Curry

[Pelly24]

I don't have a clearcut answer for this, but my thinking is that it might really be Jokic.

He doesn't have to dominate the ball and I think that opens things up for teammates sometimes in a curry-esque way, but he's a way more unstoppable player to try to guard than Curry while being a much better passer, and unlike LeBron, I don't remember any period where Jokic was genuinely hesitant to take any sort of shot regardless of the defense, while he's been in his prime.

[hagredionis]

All I know is Jordan is miles ahead of everybody else.

[Colbinii]

All I know is Jordan is miles ahead of everybody else.

I agree. Untouchable.

Lapping the field. Can't even see them in the rear-view.

Practically on a different race track.

[Redmoon]

1. Jokic
His combination of scoring and playmaking is untouchable. As we get more playoff runs I don't know if it will be close. He is easily one of the clutchest players I have ever seen. His ability to score at will is second to none and right there with MJ/Bron, yet he doesn't need to be ball dominant. Fluidly blending of his scoring with his playmaking and you have this monster. Its just mind boggling. If it wasn't for his defensive flaws he might run away with the number 1 peak. As the great cavalry commander Maharbal said of military genius Hannibal: "Assuredly, no man has been blessed with all God's gifts".

2. MJ
Basketball is about getting buckets and it just so happens that this dude is the greatest scorer of all time. Resume speaks for itself. The most complete perimeter player besides bron.
3. Bron
If we don't go relative to era I might swap Mj and bron but its close regardless.
4. Curry
It just seems like his scoring game is more easily taken away by defenses compared to the first 3. might be a size thing.
5. Magic
I don't think his scoring game compares with the other 4 here.

[Heej]

All I know is Jordan is miles ahead of everybody else.

I agree. Untouchable.

Lapping the field. Can't even see them in the rear-view.

Practically on a different race track.

Gregoire give this man his login back

[DorianRo]

The only player I've seen come close to MJ offense wise was peak Shaq. The rest pale in comparison

[Djoker]

To assess the resiliency of their offenses against good teams in the postseason, I looked at the data against 5+ SRS, 6+ SRS and 7+ SRS teams over their teams' best 5-year stretches and over their entire playoff careers.

Here are the best 5-year stretches for all these guys (minus Jokic) in postseason rORtg. Multiple posters put up the "Team rORtg Against All Teams" in the past to vouch for Lebron and it's easy to see why. His teams' offensive 5-year stretch looks the best of all the offensive GOAT's. However when filtering out the easy series, his team's offenses look by far the least resilient regardless of which SRS cutoff we use. Magic's offenses fall off a bit against stiffer competition as well. Jordan's improve slightly and Curry's improve the most although those 6+ and 7+ SRS numbers are heavily boosted by their total thrashing of the 2017 Kawhi-less Spurs. Lebron is a distant fourth in all the cutoffs.

Team rORtg Against All Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches

1991-1996 Michael Jordan (18 Series): +7.9
2013-2017 Lebron James (20 Series): +9.3
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (19 Series): +8.9
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (20 Series): +6.3

Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches

1991-1996 Michael Jordan (9 Series): +8.2
2013-2017 Lebron James (5 Series): +4.7
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (5 Series): +7.1
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (5 Series): +7.3

Team rORtg Against 6+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches

1991-1996 Michael Jordan (6 Series): +8.0
2013-2017 Lebron James (5 Series): +4.7
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (4 Series): +8.0
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (3 Series): +9.8

Team rORtg against 7+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches

1991-1996 Michael Jordan (1 Series): +9.2
2013-2017 Lebron James (4 Series): +4.1
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (0 Series): N/A (no opponents of 7+ SRS)
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (3 Series): +9.8

And here are the career averages. Lebron's teams look the least resilient against 5+ and 6+ SRS teams and he looks second best after Curry for 7+ SRS opponents but the number of series is quite small with that stringent of a cut off.

Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams - Career:

Michael Jordan (21 Series): +5.1
Lebron James (14 Series): +4.3
Magic Johnson (11 Series): +5.4
Stephen Curry (10 Series): +5.4

Team rORtg Against 6+ SRS Teams - Career:

Michael Jordan (13 Series): +5.9
Lebron James (12 Series): +5.5
Magic Johnson (9 Series): +5.7
Stephen Curry (6 Series): +6.7

Team rORtg Against 7+ SRS Teams - Career

Michael Jordan (4 Series): +4.9
Lebron James (7 Series): +5.5
Magic Johnson (4 Series): +2.9
Stephen Curry (5 Series): +7.8

Series-by-series data in spoiler.

Spoiler:

Michael Jordan - Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams:

1985 Bucks 6.69 SRS: +5.1
1986 Celtics 9.06 SRS: +5.7
1987 Celtics 6.57 SRS: +3.0
1988 Pistons 5.46 SRS: -9.5
1989 Cavaliers 7.95 SRS: +3.9
1989 Pistons 6.24 SRS: -1.6
1990 Pistons 5.41 SRS: -2.1
1991 Lakers 6.73 SRS: +10.7
1992 Cavaliers 5.34 SRS: +1.2
1992 Blazers 6.94 SRS: +6.6
1993 Cavaliers 6.30 SRS: +10.4
1993 Knicks 5.87 SRS: +12.7
1993 Suns 6.27 SRS: +6.3
1995 Magic 6.44 SRS: +4.7
1996 Magic 5.40 SRS: +11.9
1996 Sonics 7.40 SRS: +9.2
1997 Hawks 5.52 SRS: +12.6
1997 Heat 5.56 SRS: +3.4
1997 Jazz 7.97 SRS: +0.6
1998 Pacers 6.25 SRS: +12.6
1998 Jazz 5.73 SRS: +0.1

Lebron James - Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams:

2006 Pistons 6.24 SRS: -3.7
2007 Spurs 8.35 SRS: -2.7
2008 Celtics 9.30 SRS: +3.4
2009 Magic 6.48 SRS: +8.7
2011 Bulls 6.53 SRS: +2.9
2012 Thunder 6.44 SRS: +11.9
2013 Spurs 6.67 SRS: +6.9
2014 Spurs 8.00 SRS: +2.4
2015 Warriors 10.01 SRS: -1.8
2016 Warriors 10.38 SRS: +5.3
2017 Warriors 11.35 SRS: +10.6
2018 Raptors 7.29 SRS: +21.4
2018 Warriors 5.79 SRS: +0.9
2021 Suns 5.67 SRS: -6.4

Magic Johnson - Team rORtg against 5+ SRS Teams:

1982 Sixers 5.72 SRS: +4.6
1983 Sixers 7.53 SRS: -1.2
1984 Celtics 6.42 SRS: +7.6
1985 Celtics 6.47 SRS: +6.0
1987 Celtics 6.57 SRS: +11.6
1988 Pistons 5.46 SRS: +3.6
1989 Suns 6.84 SRS: +7.9
1989 Pistons 6.24 SRS: +6.4
1990 Suns 7.09 SRS: +5.7
1991 Blazers 8.47 SRS: +7.6
1991 Bulls 8.57 SRS: -0.7

Stephen Curry - Team rORtg against 5+ SRS Teams:

2013 Nuggets 5.37 SRS: +5.8
2013 Spurs 6.67 SRS: +1.1
2014 Clippers 7.27 SRS: +5.7
2016 Thunder 7.09 SRS: +2.2
2016 Cavaliers 5.45 SRS: +4.0
2017 Spurs 7.13 SRS: +18.7
2018 Rockets 8.21 SRS: +8.4
2019 Raptors 5.49 SRS: +3.0
2022 Grizzlies 5.37 SRS: +0.8
2022 Celtics 7.02 SRS: +3.9

[Throwawaytheone]

To assess the resiliency of their offenses against good teams in the postseason, I looked at the data against 5+ SRS, 6+ SRS and 7+ SRS teams over their teams' best 5-year stretches and over their entire playoff careers.

Here are the best 5-year stretches for all these guys (minus Jokic) in postseason rORtg. Multiple posters put up the "Team rORtg Against All Teams" in the past to vouch for Lebron and it's easy to see why. His teams' offensive 5-year stretch looks the best of all the offensive GOAT's. However when filtering out the easy series, his team's offenses look by far the least resilient regardless of which SRS cutoff we use. Magic's offenses fall off a bit against stiffer competition as well. Jordan's improve slightly and Curry's improve the most although those 6+ and 7+ SRS numbers are heavily boosted by their total thrashing of the 2017 Kawhi-less Spurs. Lebron is a distant fourth in all the cutoffs.

Team rORtg Against All Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches

1991-1996 Michael Jordan (18 Series): +7.9
2013-2017 Lebron James (20 Series): +9.3
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (19 Series): +8.9
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (20 Series): +6.3

Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches

1991-1996 Michael Jordan (9 Series): +8.2
2013-2017 Lebron James (5 Series): +4.7
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (5 Series): +7.1
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (5 Series): +7.3

Team rORtg Against 6+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches

1991-1996 Michael Jordan (6 Series): +8.0
2013-2017 Lebron James (5 Series): +4.7
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (4 Series): +8.0
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (3 Series): +9.8

Team rORtg against 7+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches

1991-1996 Michael Jordan (1 Series): +9.2
2013-2017 Lebron James (4 Series): +4.1
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (0 Series): N/A (no opponents of 7+ SRS)
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (3 Series): +9.8

And here are the career averages. Lebron's teams look the least resilient against 5+ and 6+ SRS teams and he looks second best after Curry for 7+ SRS opponents but the number of series is quite small with that stringent of a cut off.

Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams - Career:

Michael Jordan (21 Series): +5.1
Lebron James (14 Series): +4.3
Magic Johnson (11 Series): +5.4
Stephen Curry (10 Series): +5.4

Team rORtg Against 6+ SRS Teams - Career:

Michael Jordan (13 Series): +5.9
Lebron James (12 Series): +5.5
Magic Johnson (9 Series): +5.7
Stephen Curry (6 Series): +6.7

Team rORtg Against 7+ SRS Teams - Career

Michael Jordan (4 Series): +4.9
Lebron James (7 Series): +5.5
Magic Johnson (4 Series): +2.9
Stephen Curry (5 Series): +7.8

Series-by-series data in spoiler.

Spoiler:

Michael Jordan - Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams:

1985 Bucks 6.69 SRS: +5.1
1986 Celtics 9.06 SRS: +5.7
1987 Celtics 6.57 SRS: +3.0
1988 Pistons 5.46 SRS: -9.5
1989 Cavaliers 7.95 SRS: +3.9
1989 Pistons 6.24 SRS: -1.6
1990 Pistons 5.41 SRS: -2.1
1991 Lakers 6.73 SRS: +10.7
1992 Cavaliers 5.34 SRS: +1.2
1992 Blazers 6.94 SRS: +6.6
1993 Cavaliers 6.30 SRS: +10.4
1993 Knicks 5.87 SRS: +12.7
1993 Suns 6.27 SRS: +6.3
1995 Magic 6.44 SRS: +4.7
1996 Magic 5.40 SRS: +11.9
1996 Sonics 7.40 SRS: +9.2
1997 Hawks 5.52 SRS: +12.6
1997 Heat 5.56 SRS: +3.4
1997 Jazz 7.97 SRS: +0.6
1998 Pacers 6.25 SRS: +12.6
1998 Jazz 5.73 SRS: +0.1

Lebron James - Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams:

2006 Pistons 6.24 SRS: -3.7
2007 Spurs 8.35 SRS: -2.7
2008 Celtics 9.30 SRS: +3.4
2009 Magic 6.48 SRS: +8.7
2011 Bulls 6.53 SRS: +2.9
2012 Thunder 6.44 SRS: +11.9
2013 Spurs 6.67 SRS: +6.9
2014 Spurs 8.00 SRS: +2.4
2015 Warriors 10.01 SRS: -1.8
2016 Warriors 10.38 SRS: +5.3
2017 Warriors 11.35 SRS: +10.6
2018 Raptors 7.29 SRS: +21.4
2018 Warriors 5.79 SRS: +0.9
2021 Suns 5.67 SRS: -6.4

Magic Johnson - Team rORtg against 5+ SRS Teams:

1982 Sixers 5.72 SRS: +4.6
1983 Sixers 7.53 SRS: -1.2
1984 Celtics 6.42 SRS: +7.6
1985 Celtics 6.47 SRS: +6.0
1987 Celtics 6.57 SRS: +11.6
1988 Pistons 5.46 SRS: +3.6
1989 Suns 6.84 SRS: +7.9
1989 Pistons 6.24 SRS: +6.4
1990 Suns 7.09 SRS: +5.7
1991 Blazers 8.47 SRS: +7.6
1991 Bulls 8.57 SRS: -0.7

Stephen Curry - Team rORtg against 5+ SRS Teams:

2013 Nuggets 5.37 SRS: +5.8
2013 Spurs 6.67 SRS: +1.1
2014 Clippers 7.27 SRS: +5.7
2016 Thunder 7.09 SRS: +2.2
2016 Cavaliers 5.45 SRS: +4.0
2017 Spurs 7.13 SRS: +18.7
2018 Rockets 8.21 SRS: +8.4
2019 Raptors 5.49 SRS: +3.0
2022 Grizzlies 5.37 SRS: +0.8
2022 Celtics 7.02 SRS: +3.9

Really interesting data. What do you make of the whole debate about seperating elite defenses faced vs elite teams faced? Sorting by elite defenses only can be flawed because of so many teams being paper tigers in the playoffs and others clearly stepping it up massively, but using SRS can also be flawed because some teams can just be carried by being great offensively. Personally, it just leads to me really disliking all forms of team stats in general.

[Djoker]

To assess the resiliency of their offenses against good teams in the postseason, I looked at the data against 5+ SRS, 6+ SRS and 7+ SRS teams over their teams' best 5-year stretches and over their entire playoff careers.

Here are the best 5-year stretches for all these guys (minus Jokic) in postseason rORtg. Multiple posters put up the "Team rORtg Against All Teams" in the past to vouch for Lebron and it's easy to see why. His teams' offensive 5-year stretch looks the best of all the offensive GOAT's. However when filtering out the easy series, his team's offenses look by far the least resilient regardless of which SRS cutoff we use. Magic's offenses fall off a bit against stiffer competition as well. Jordan's improve slightly and Curry's improve the most although those 6+ and 7+ SRS numbers are heavily boosted by their total thrashing of the 2017 Kawhi-less Spurs. Lebron is a distant fourth in all the cutoffs.

Team rORtg Against All Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches

1991-1996 Michael Jordan (18 Series): +7.9
2013-2017 Lebron James (20 Series): +9.3
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (19 Series): +8.9
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (20 Series): +6.3

Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches

1991-1996 Michael Jordan (9 Series): +8.2
2013-2017 Lebron James (5 Series): +4.7
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (5 Series): +7.1
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (5 Series): +7.3

Team rORtg Against 6+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches

1991-1996 Michael Jordan (6 Series): +8.0
2013-2017 Lebron James (5 Series): +4.7
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (4 Series): +8.0
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (3 Series): +9.8

Team rORtg against 7+ SRS Teams - Best 5-Year Stretches

1991-1996 Michael Jordan (1 Series): +9.2
2013-2017 Lebron James (4 Series): +4.1
1985-1989 Magic Johnson (0 Series): N/A (no opponents of 7+ SRS)
2015-2019 Stephen Curry (3 Series): +9.8

And here are the career averages. Lebron's teams look the least resilient against 5+ and 6+ SRS teams and he looks second best after Curry for 7+ SRS opponents but the number of series is quite small with that stringent of a cut off.

Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams - Career:

Michael Jordan (21 Series): +5.1
Lebron James (14 Series): +4.3
Magic Johnson (11 Series): +5.4
Stephen Curry (10 Series): +5.4

Team rORtg Against 6+ SRS Teams - Career:

Michael Jordan (13 Series): +5.9
Lebron James (12 Series): +5.5
Magic Johnson (9 Series): +5.7
Stephen Curry (6 Series): +6.7

Team rORtg Against 7+ SRS Teams - Career

Michael Jordan (4 Series): +4.9
Lebron James (7 Series): +5.5
Magic Johnson (4 Series): +2.9
Stephen Curry (5 Series): +7.8

Series-by-series data in spoiler.

Spoiler:

Michael Jordan - Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams:

1985 Bucks 6.69 SRS: +5.1
1986 Celtics 9.06 SRS: +5.7
1987 Celtics 6.57 SRS: +3.0
1988 Pistons 5.46 SRS: -9.5
1989 Cavaliers 7.95 SRS: +3.9
1989 Pistons 6.24 SRS: -1.6
1990 Pistons 5.41 SRS: -2.1
1991 Lakers 6.73 SRS: +10.7
1992 Cavaliers 5.34 SRS: +1.2
1992 Blazers 6.94 SRS: +6.6
1993 Cavaliers 6.30 SRS: +10.4
1993 Knicks 5.87 SRS: +12.7
1993 Suns 6.27 SRS: +6.3
1995 Magic 6.44 SRS: +4.7
1996 Magic 5.40 SRS: +11.9
1996 Sonics 7.40 SRS: +9.2
1997 Hawks 5.52 SRS: +12.6
1997 Heat 5.56 SRS: +3.4
1997 Jazz 7.97 SRS: +0.6
1998 Pacers 6.25 SRS: +12.6
1998 Jazz 5.73 SRS: +0.1

Lebron James - Team rORtg Against 5+ SRS Teams:

2006 Pistons 6.24 SRS: -3.7
2007 Spurs 8.35 SRS: -2.7
2008 Celtics 9.30 SRS: +3.4
2009 Magic 6.48 SRS: +8.7
2011 Bulls 6.53 SRS: +2.9
2012 Thunder 6.44 SRS: +11.9
2013 Spurs 6.67 SRS: +6.9
2014 Spurs 8.00 SRS: +2.4
2015 Warriors 10.01 SRS: -1.8
2016 Warriors 10.38 SRS: +5.3
2017 Warriors 11.35 SRS: +10.6
2018 Raptors 7.29 SRS: +21.4
2018 Warriors 5.79 SRS: +0.9
2021 Suns 5.67 SRS: -6.4

Magic Johnson - Team rORtg against 5+ SRS Teams:

1982 Sixers 5.72 SRS: +4.6
1983 Sixers 7.53 SRS: -1.2
1984 Celtics 6.42 SRS: +7.6
1985 Celtics 6.47 SRS: +6.0
1987 Celtics 6.57 SRS: +11.6
1988 Pistons 5.46 SRS: +3.6
1989 Suns 6.84 SRS: +7.9
1989 Pistons 6.24 SRS: +6.4
1990 Suns 7.09 SRS: +5.7
1991 Blazers 8.47 SRS: +7.6
1991 Bulls 8.57 SRS: -0.7

Stephen Curry - Team rORtg against 5+ SRS Teams:

2013 Nuggets 5.37 SRS: +5.8
2013 Spurs 6.67 SRS: +1.1
2014 Clippers 7.27 SRS: +5.7
2016 Thunder 7.09 SRS: +2.2
2016 Cavaliers 5.45 SRS: +4.0
2017 Spurs 7.13 SRS: +18.7
2018 Rockets 8.21 SRS: +8.4
2019 Raptors 5.49 SRS: +3.0
2022 Grizzlies 5.37 SRS: +0.8
2022 Celtics 7.02 SRS: +3.9

Really interesting data. What do you make of the whole debate about seperating elite defenses faced vs elite teams faced? Sorting by elite defenses only can be flawed because of so many teams being paper tigers in the playoffs and others clearly stepping it up massively, but using SRS can also be flawed because some teams can just be carried by being great offensively. Personally, it just leads to me really disliking all forms of team stats in general.

Well the point of the post is to show performance against good teams in general as opposed to just everyone in the playoffs. I think SRS does as good job of that as any stat.

[lessthanjake]

Really interesting data. What do you make of the whole debate about seperating elite defenses faced vs elite teams faced? Sorting by elite defenses only can be flawed because of so many teams being paper tigers in the playoffs and others clearly stepping it up massively, but using SRS can also be flawed because some teams can just be carried by being great offensively. Personally, it just leads to me really disliking all forms of team stats in general.

Looking at rORTG (relative offensive rating—which is calculated based on how much more or less efficiently the team scored than the average that particular opponent gave up) essentially corrects for scenarios where a good opponent doesn’t actually have a good defense. In order to get a good rORTG against a team like that, you have to score even more efficiently against them. So this is a method that essentially aims to correct for defense quality.

Thus, it just sort of comes down to whether we are interested in looking at performance against elite teams or performance against elite defensive teams. There’s of course a lot of overlap there. Where they don’t overlap (and therefore where the difference comes in) is (1) when there are teams with a great defense but such a mediocre offense that they aren’t a great team overall; and (2) where there are elite teams where their offense is the main thing making the team elite. Personally, I’m typically less interested in the playoff offensive results against Category 1 teams, since those teams usually aren’t actually particularly good/dangerous, while I think playoff offensively results against Category 2 teams is still important because those are usually good/dangerous teams (and, remember, we’re doing relative offensive rating, so we are largely correcting for Category 2 teams being lesser defenses). That said, any method with an SRS cutoff or rDRTG cutoff will be both overinclusive and underinclusive. In theory, a holistic analysis that just tries to identify good/dangerous teams more generally would be better, but it’d just be so subjective that people would inevitably go around and around about what teams should and shouldn’t count.

[OhayoKD]

All I know is Jordan is miles ahead of everybody else.

Luka over Jokic is pretty incompatible with Jordan over Lebron offensively

[lessthanjake]

All I know is Jordan is miles ahead of everybody else.

Luka over Jokic is pretty incompatible with Jordan over Lebron offensively

That seems like an assertion that is clearly not logically sound. (I don’t have Luka over Jokic, but the premise of this analogy just seems like it must be based on wild simplifications and handwaving, because all four players are quite different).

[Lebronnygoat]

I don’t know why people keep saying LeBron is worse offensively than players he's obviously superior to

LeBron 2009-2021
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
Net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
Net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference

+12 total swing

Jokic 2022-2024
136-68 (66.7% win rate) with jokic
8-15 (34.8% win rate) without jokic
+4.1 net rating with jokic (53 win pace)
-4.6 net rating without jokic (28 win pace)
+6.5 ortg change
+8.7 overall change

Magic 1984-1991
454-149 75.3% win rate with
29-24 54.7% win rate
+7.4 net rating with (61 win pace level)
+0.2 net rating without (42 win pace level)
+4.9 ortg difference
+7.2 overall difference

Jordan 1988-1998
Bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
Bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
Net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
Net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+4 total swing

The most impactful offensive player ever by the facts

[ShotCreator]

Spoiler:

Warned for trolling - CF

Jokic leads the league in touches, but is not even in the top 30 in time of possession. He has the least ball dominance of any lead playmaker in NBA history IMO. And does it while stretching the floor and actually screening a lot of his time out there.

Super portable offensive style.

LeBron, not so much. Don't get me wrong, I don't think LeBron's in the Harden/Westbrook/Luka category, but the effects of his play style is definitely not the same as Nikola's. Who is essentially a role player or mid tier guy on actual time with the ball in his hands. He hot potatoes it around without prejudice. Anybody could play their entire play style next to him.

As far as the OP. This question is not simple. It's the same as an ATG ranking. All comes down to criteria and preference.

Curry played the highest of offensive basketball of anyone here for a regular season. And can be relied upon to do with in a repeatable way and in the playoffs, but only with the right fit in my opinion.

Jordan is a consistent, dominant playoff monster who can scale his game up to RS level but to me, is the least portable guy here at his best with the lowest BBIQ, and worst team level instincts.

Jokic is most complete offensive player here. Absolutely no weaknesses, skillfully or stylistically. Physically dominant due to strength so he can dominate even dominant athletes like Anthony Davis if need be, maybe the smartest here. However he isn't singularly as threating from one spot as some of the others, can't be as scary as Curry is when running behind a screen, Magic is in transition, or as LeBron is in the lane, but again unlike them he can do everything everywhere with anybody.

Magic OTOH, is possibly the most deadly interior passer ever. Though not as physically dominant as LeBron, Jokic or Jordan in a 1v1 matchup against the best defensive athletes on earth. He is more physically dominant than Curry however.

LeBron's a basketball savant with the most athleticism here to match it but has a clear skill cap on his game that the others don't have. But is still extremely skilled. And I really think that only effects who you can put around him. He's close to as resilient as anybody here. I think Jordan is a little more complete skillset wise in a halfcourt set and his superior playoff consistency shows that. LeBron quite possibly has the highest playoff peak here in 09, but the lowest lows in 11, 15, and notable duds in his real athletic prime of 2010, 2013.


There's tradeoffs in every direction.

[OhayoKD]

Spoiler:

Warned for trolling - CF

Jokic leads the league in touches, but is not even in the top 30 in time of possession. He has the least ball dominance of any lead playmaker in NBA history IMO. And does it while stretching the floor and actually screening a lot of his time out there..

"Jokic doing less makes him better because it fits my aesthetic preferences even though it doesn't lead to comparable or better offensive results"

[ShotCreator]

Spoiler:

Warned for trolling - CF

Jokic leads the league in touches, but is not even in the top 30 in time of possession. He has the least ball dominance of any lead playmaker in NBA history IMO. And does it while stretching the floor and actually screening a lot of his time out there..

"Jokic doing less makes him better because it fits my aesthetic preferences even though it doesn't lead to comparable or better offensive results"

Nope. Jokic can play his entire game next to anybody else's entire game. Across the current league and any era. LeBron absolutely cannot do that.

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=DenverStiffsANuggetsBasketballBlog

Jokic made lineups with Plumlee, Faried, Bruce Brown while refusing to shoot, Aaron Gordon while refusing to shoot, work to perfection.

I don't even know why this would be contested.

And what offensive results? I feel this would get into nitpicking series and time periods. I'd rather nitpick skillsets. That's actually way less subject to randomness and chance

[OhayoKD]

Jokic leads the league in touches, but is not even in the top 30 in time of possession. He has the least ball dominance of any lead playmaker in NBA history IMO. And does it while stretching the floor and actually screening a lot of his time out there..

"Jokic doing less makes him better because it fits my aesthetic preferences even though it doesn't lead to comparable or better offensive results"

Nope. Jokic can play his entire game next to anybody else's entire game. Across the current league and any era. LeBron absolutely cannot do that.

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=DenverStiffsANuggetsBasketballBlog

Jokic made lineups with Plumlee, Faried, Bruce Brown while refusing to shoot, Aaron Gordon while refusing to shoot, work to perfection.

+2.6 offense is now "perfection", fascinating.

And what offensive results? I feel this would get into nitpicking series and time periods. I'd rather nitpick skillsets. That's actually way less subject to randomness and chance

You would rather "nitpick skillsets" based on priors like "lebron being a better ball-handler than jokic is a bad thing" and "lebron handling the ball more throughout a possession" is a bad thing, even though actual outcomes suggest those are good things. There is no point in nitpicking skillsets if you are going to pretend one player's advantages are actually weaknesses, particularly when...

I don’t know why people keep saying LeBron is worse offensively than players he's obviously superior to

LeBron 2009-2021
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
Net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
Net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference

+12 total swing

Jokic 2022-2024
136-68 (66.7% win rate) with jokic
8-15 (34.8% win rate) without jokic
+4.1 net rating with jokic (53 win pace)
-4.6 net rating without jokic (28 win pace)
+6.5 ortg change
+8.7 overall change

Magic 1984-1991
454-149 75.3% win rate with
29-24 54.7% win rate
+7.4 net rating with (61 win pace level)
+0.2 net rating without (42 win pace level)
+4.9 ortg difference
+7.2 overall difference

Jordan 1988-1998
Bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
Bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
Net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
Net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+4 total swing

The most impactful offensive player ever by the facts

Those "weaknesses" seemingly correlate with better team outcomes again and again. Speaking of which...

1. Jokic
His combination of scoring and playmaking is untouchable. As we get more playoff runs I don't know if it will be close. He is easily one of the clutchest players I have ever seen. His ability to score at will is second to none and right there with MJ/Bron, yet he doesn't need to be ball dominant. Fluidly blending of his scoring with his playmaking and you have this monster. Its just mind boggling. If it wasn't for his defensive flaws he might run away with the number 1 peak. As the great cavalry commander Maharbal said of military genius Hannibal: "Assuredly, no man has been blessed with all God's gifts".

2. MJ
Basketball is about getting buckets and it just so happens that this dude is the greatest scorer of all time. Resume speaks for itself. The most complete perimeter player besides bron.
3. Bron
If we don't go relative to era I might swap Mj and bron but its close regardless.
4. Curry
It just seems like his scoring game is more easily taken away by defenses compared to the first 3. might be a size thing.
5. Magic
I don't think his scoring game compares with the other 4 here.

1. Jokic
1.5. {Nash]
2. Magic
gap
3. Jordan
4. Lebron
5. Curry

Curious what has you two convinced lebron is at or near the bottom of this list offensively when his team improves the most offensively with him of the pack...and this has mantained over a wider variety of contexts than any other player in history.