[RealGM Legacy] Ending the Myth: Wilt had no competition

[ThaRegul8r]

This is from another board arguing about Wilt vs. Shaq. People hold up that Shaq has twice as many titles as Wilt and say Wilt had no competition while Shaq dominated in the toughest era in NBA history.

3 straight championships in his prime, with one year going 16-1, losing only one game. Lets not forget, Tim Duncan was playing all of these years, and was pretty much forgotten about because of Shaquilles dominance.

Wilt only had 1, and no matter how much footage I haven't seen of him, that simply does not get it done

COMPETITION

Chamberlain went through Bill Russell and Nate Thurmond to win his first title in 1967, and went through Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Jerry Lucas to win in 1972 for his two titles. During the Lakers’ three-peat, Shaq went through Rik Smits in 2000, a 35-year old Dikembe Mutombo in 2001, and Todd MacCulloch, Jason Collins and Aaron Williams in 2002. Which one faced more impressive competition to win?

Wilt faced Russell in the playoffs in 1960 (ECF), 1962 (ECF), 1964 (Finals), 1965 (ECF), 1966 (ECF), 1967 (ECF), 1968 (Finals), and 1969 (Finals), Willis Reed in 1968 (EC Semifinals), 1970 (Finals), and 1973 (Finals), Jerry Lucas in 1972 (Finals), Nate Thurmond in 1967 (Finals), 1969 (Western Conference Semifinals), and 1973 (WCF), Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in 1971 (WCF), 1972 (WCF).

EVERY YEAR WILT WAS FACING A HALL OF FAME CENTER AND TOP 50 PLAYER OF ALL TIME IN THE PLAYOFFS.

Wilt played 160 postseason games, 49 against Bill Russell, 17 against Willis Reed, 17 against Nate Thurmond, 11 against Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and five against Jerry Lucas.

99 of Wilt’s 160 career playoff games was against a Hall of Fame center and Top 50 Player of All Time.

61.2% OF WILT CHAMBERLAIN’S PLAYOFF GAMES WERE AGAINST A HALL OF FAME CENTER AND TOP 50 PLAYER OF ALL TIME

Now let’s look at Shaq’s competition.

1994: Swept by Indiana and the dominating Rik Smits in the first round.

1995: O’Neal faced Eric Montross in the first round, Luc Longley in the Eastern Conference Semi-finals, Rik Smits in the Eastern Conference Finals, and was swept by Hakeem Olajuwon in the NBA Finals.

1996: O’Neal swept Otis Thorpe in the first round, faced Andrew Lang in the EC Semis, and was swept by Luc Longley in the Eastern Conference Finals.

1997: Faced Arvydas Sabonis and Chris Dudley in the first round, and lost in five to Greg Ostertag in the WC Semis.

1998: Faced Sabonis in the first round, Sam Perkins in the WC Semis, and was swept by Greg Ostertag in the Western Conference Finals.

1999: Beat a 36-year-old Hakeem Olajuwon (18.9 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 1.8 apg, 2.46 bpg, .514 FG%, Third Team All-NBA) in four in the first round, and was swept by David Robinson in the WC Semis.

2000: Averaged 30.7 points on 56.6 percent shooting, 15.4 rebounds, 3.1 assists and 2.39 blocked shots. Went through Vlade Divac in five in the first round, Luc Longley, Mark West and Oliver Miller in the WC Semis, Arvydas Sabonis in the WCF, and averaged 38 points on 61.1 percent shooting, 16.7 rebounds and 2.67 blocked shots against Rik Smits in the NBA Finals.

Hmmm. Shaq averaged 30 and 15 in the playoffs, but who did he dominate? Where are the Hall of Famers he beat? What Top 50 Players of All Time did he face? Beating an old Arvydas Sabonis and Rik Smits isn’t exactly the same as beating Bill Russell—third in the MVP voting that year--and Nate Thurmond—MVP runner-up that year—for your first title. Wilt was MVP, and he went through the players who finished second and third to him in the MVP voting to show that he was indeed the MVP. Shaq on the other hand, dropped 43 and 19, 40 and 24, and 36 and 21 against Rik freaking Smits. He’s unstoppable!!!!

That’s not even in the same stratosphere as Wilt averaging 21, 32 and 10 against Russell in 1967, and dropping 29, 36 and 13 in the deciding game to become the only man in NBA history to beat a healthy Bill Russell in the playoffs.

2001: Averaged 30.4 points on 55.5 percent shooting, 15.4 rebounds, 3.2 assists and 2.38 blocked shots. Went through Sabonis in the first round, Divac in the Western Conference Semis, David Robinson in the Western Conference Finals, and Dikembe Mutombo in the NBA Finals.

Okay, at least Robinson was Third Team All NBA that year. Mutombo was Defensive Player of the Year, though it should be noted that Mutombo was 35 and Shaq was 28. But Wilt went through Kareem Abdul-Jabbar—THE LEAGUE MVP for his second title, who's better than anyone Shaq beat for his.

2002: Averaged 28.5 points on 52.9 percent shooting, 12.6 rebounds, 2.8 assists and 2.53 blocked shots. Went through Sabonis in the first round, Robinson in the semis, averaged 30.3 and 13.6 against Divac in the Western Conference Finals, and 36.3 and 12.3 against Todd MacCulloch, Jason Collins and Aaron Williams in the Finals.

Yeah, Shaq couldn’t be stopped by Vlade Divac, Todd MacCulloch, Jason Collins and Aaron Williams. That certainly makes Shaq > Wilt, doesn’t it?

2003: O’Neal faced Rasho Nesterovic in the first round, and lost to David Robinson in the semis.

2004: Faced Yao Ming in the first round, Rasho Nesterovic in the Semis, Michael Olowokandi and Ervin Johnson in the Western Conference Finals, and lost to Ben Wallace in the NBA Finals.

2005: Faced Nenad Krstic and Jason Collins in the first round, Brendan Haywood in the Eastern Conference Semis, and lost to Ben Wallace in seven in the Eastern Conference Finals.

2006: Went through Tyson Chandler in the first round, Nenad Krstic and Jason Collins in the Eastern Conference Semis, Ben Wallace in the Eastern Conference Finals, and Erick Dampier and DeSagana Diop in the NBA Finals.

2007: Swept by Ben Wallace in the first round.

So let’s see here.

Wilt Chamberlain was eliminated from the playoffs by:

Bill Russell (1960, ’62, ’64-66, ’68, ’69), Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1971), and Willis Reed (1970, 1973)

These are the centers who kept Wilt from winning championships.

Wilt faced a Hall of Fame center in 61% of his playoff games.

Shaq was eliminated from the playoffs by:

Rik Smits (1994—sweep), Hakeem Olajuwon (1995—sweep), Luc Longley (1996—sweep), Greg Ostertag (1997, 1998--sweep), David Robinson (1999—sweep, 2003), Ben Wallace (2004, 2005, 2007--sweep).

Now which list looks more impressive to you? If you’re a center, and you’re going to get eliminated from the playoffs, which group would you rather say you lost to? (And he gets swept by teams with Rik Smits and Greg freaking Ostertag in the middle)

WHAT PERCENT OF SHAQ’S 198 CAREER POSTSEASON GAMES DID HE PLAY A HALL OF FAME/TOP 50 PLAYER OF ALL TIME CENTER?

13.6%

27 of Shaq’s 198 career playoff games came against another center who was a Hall of Famer and Top 50 Player of All Time.

This is absolutely the EASIEST comparison made on any forum, PERIOD. Shaquille O'Neal is the greatest center the game of basketball has and probably will ever witness. We are talking about the most unstoppable FORCE in the history of this game, playing in the TOUGHEST era in the history of this game.

A MYTH. The talent was more concentrated when Wilt played, meaning he had to play another HoF center more often. He’d play a Hall of Famer 10+ times in the regular season, then 61% of his playoff games was against a HoF center. This has been stated before, but never has anyone brought the definitive proof until now.

Wilt was overrated. He never averaged 30 ppg in the finals like Wade or Iverson or Shaq.

Wilt didn’t face bums like Rik Smits, Todd MacCulloch, Jason Collins and Aaron Williams in the Finals. He was facing men like Bill Russell, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed and Jerry Lucas. All Hall of Famers, all among the 50 Greatest Players ever to play the game. Unlike Shaq.

If Wilt had gone up against the likes Todd McCullough and Rik Smits in the Finals, he surely would have scored more than 30 PPG ...

Yet people have the gall to say Wilt didn’t face competition, and say this while arguing for Shaq. Hopefully this will obliterate that notion once and for all.

I will say, however, Wilt did play against much better big men. Shaq never saw a Chamberlain, Russel, Kareem, etc. when he was winning championships. The bigs he saw were a joke, Vlade Divac and Arvydas Sabonis were his toughest matchups.

People rave about Shaq, but what Wilt would do in an NBA where he only faced another Hall of Fame center/Top 50 Player 14% of the time in the playoffs rather than 61% of the time is downright scary.

I don't like to see falsehoods stated, regardless who it's about, and I've been trying to do my part to help remedy the appalling ignorance people have when putting players in a historical context.

Wilt > Shaq

I had enough of this "Wilt didn't face anyone nonsense." It's ridiculous how people try to say he never faced anyone to disparage him. Now it can be buried once and for all. 30% of his playoff games were against the greatest defensive center of all time? 61% of his total playoff games were against a team with a center that was a Hall of Famer and Top 50 player of all time? And this after facing a HoF center 10+ times in the regular season? Yeah, Wilt faced nothing but bums.



And writerman, feel free to use any of this if you need to.

[wigglestrue]

Regulated! Well done.

[Myth_Breaker]

Brilliant summary!

[Kabookalu]

It makes you wonder where these myths that Wilt faced 6'5 unathletic white men came from. This guy was a beast. I remember a couple plays where he would grab the rebound, lead the break and handle the ball as if he were a point guard while beating most of the players on the court, and then finish the play.

[penbeast0]

Good post and stuff that needed saying. I wouldn't include Lucas there; by the time he played for NY, he was far from HOF caliber as a center or a player. He was a smart, savvy vet with a good outside shot playing a position where he was . . . wait for it . . . a 6'8 white guy with limited defensive skills; Vlade Divac level or a bit lower. Doesn't change your overall picture though; Wilt faced a lot of great centers, Shaq faced a lot of stiffs.

[CBS7]

Who cares. I could have been a HOF center if I played in that era.

[G35]

Hmmmm, 61% of the time huh......how many times did he face Russell? That's kind of skewing the fact that the Celtics were in the playoff's every year going for the championship isn't it.

Shaq has gone up against Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, David Robinson, Chris Webber, Rasheed Wallace, Dikembe Mutumbo, Arvydas Sabonis, Yao Ming in the playoff's........

[TNBT]

That first post is probably one of the best I have ever seen on RealGM. Hopefully it shuts up some of the idiots who think that pro basketball only started like 15 years ago.

[MT1983]

Writerman will be in tears after reading that initial post.

[Simplicity0]

There's a huge problem with your logic. Someone who thinks that wouldn't think of Russel as the greatest defensive center ever. The guy said:

playing in the TOUGHEST era in the history of this game.

and you responded with

A MYTH. The talent was more concentrated when Wilt played, meaning he had to play another HoF center more often. He

[ThaRegul8r]

There's a huge problem with your logic. Someone who thinks that wouldn't think of Russel as the greatest defensive center ever. The guy said:

playing in the TOUGHEST era in the history of this game.

and you responded with

A MYTH. The talent was more concentrated when Wilt played, meaning he had to play another HoF center more often. He

[thebottomline]

I think it does a disservice to the game to point to a handful of individual players as evidence of better/worse competition, when what a player (especially for one like Shaq) faces each game is so much more than just the quality of the opposing team's counterpart at his position. Not that it necessarily changes the argument.

[ThaRegul8r]

I think it does a disservice to the game to point to a handful of individual players as evidence of better/worse competition

Handful of individual players? I provided a list of every center Shaq faced in dominating to 4 rings, 3 Finals MVPs. People make the claim that Shaq is a better playoff performer and faced tougher competition than Wilt did, so I listed Shaq's competition to see if it indeed be so.

[compucomp]

It makes you wonder where these myths that Wilt faced 6'5 unathletic white men came from. This guy was a beast. I remember a couple plays where he would grab the rebound, lead the break and handle the ball as if he were a point guard while beating most of the players on the court, and then finish the play.

It comes from young sportswriters who never saw the 60's guys play and from haters like Charlie Rosen. They influence the younger generation into believing that Jordan is the GOAT and that Shaq is a greater player than Wilt.

[Point forward]

Back then, there were only 12-15 teams in the NBA. The lineup of the starting Cs was a murderer's row of HOFers like Bill Russell, Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, Wayne Embry, Ed Macauley and Clyde Lovellette. Plus guys like Bob Pettit, Jerry Lucas and Elgin Baylor who were prolific in the low post. This means that Wilt faced a HOF big guy practically twice in 3 games.

[Jemini80]

Shaq is pimped out bc he played in LA and was funny.

i don't get why Jordan is put on such a high untouchable place either. The way Kobe is playing this season is equal to Jordan at his peak, but no one will say it, and then when you say it you get called an idiot even though i watched both of them.

IMO Hakeem was superior to Shaq also, but he played during a time of far superior greatness to when Shaq played also.

skill> pure size and a soft touch

Hakeem had crazy skill.

Magic Johnson is the greatest player of all-time anyway, tied with Wilt.

[Myth_Breaker]

I've praised this thread before, but on the other hand its title scares me a bit...












j/k

[TrueLAfan]

Right off, I think Shaq's first period of greatness was earlier in his career, when there was more depth at the C position than there would be at the end of the 90s and beginning of the 00s. Shaq was pretty devastating in 94-96; you've got Hakeem, DRob, Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo at or very near their peak. You've got a very good second tier guy in Kevin Willis, and some other good players like Dale Davis and Vlade (who was around 15 and 10 in those years) in the second group of Cs. And the playoff series competition isn't really compelling as an argument; lots of great Cs (Kareem, Unseld, Lanier, Gilmore, Sikma, DRob, Ewing, etc.) either don't win titles or win only one during lots of peak years. Most years, they just don't get soup. I don't hold it against Kareem that he won "only" one title between 1970 and 1979, even though he was at his peak.

And the early 1960s, although they had Wilt and Russell and added Bellamy in 1962, were not super deep in elite Cs. You can't really count Pettit or Schayes or other low post players that weren't Cs; we don't count Malone and Barkley and Kemp and players like that in the 90s. They weren't Cs; they were usually guarded by other people. Lucas wasn't a C early in his career (for the most part, Reed and Lucas were never Cs simultaneously); Easy Ed Macauley was done as a starter by 1958. In 1961, you had Wilt and Russell in an 8 team league. You had Johnny Kerr, who was a very good, tough player--a match for Kevin Willis. Wayne Embry was a good, not great player--sort of a Dale Davis type (two inches shorter and thirty pounds heavier...he was Wayne the Wall). But you also had Charlie Tyra, Walter Dukes, and Jim Krebs starting. Numbers were higher at the time; Clyde Lovelette looks really impressive (around 20-10 for the first years of the 60s), but a chunk of that is a statistical illusion. Adjusted to modern terms, he was more like a 16-7 guy...and he was a fat thug that took advantage of the violence of the period. He was the dirtiest "good" player of the period, which is saying a lot when you consider that basketball was a far more brutal and violent game (more like hockey) than it is now. A big chunk of why Lovelette is in the HOF is because of his college career and Olympic performance. Given a choice between Lovelette and Vlade, I'd take Vlade six days a week and twice on Sunday.

The relative size of the league does make even the smaller numbers more impressive, though; when you have to face Russell 10-11 games a year, and Kerr and Embry 11 games a year...it adds up. That's 30 plus games in a season. In a 29 team league, you'd have to have depth down to the 10th or 11th team like that. Still, what's impressive about the 60s--particularly the later 60s--isn't just the depth of great Cs; it's the quality of the second tier players. It's not just Bellamy and Thurmond and Reed (who didn't even play C until pretty late in the decade.) It's the Red Kerrs and Wayne Embrys and player of that type. Zelmo Beaty entered the league the same year and was a force by mid-decade. Leroy Ellis had some good years. Red Kerr was still a 17-13 player in 1964. Ray Scott, who played at both Forward positions as well as C (kind of the Sheed of his time) had over half a decade of quality play. Connie Dierking--the guy played C to Lucas's PF in Cincinnati--had some solid years in late decade. In a small league, that means a guy like Leroy Ellis is well into lower half of starting Cs. In 1964, you had as nine team league with Wilt, Russell, and Bellamy. You had Red Kerr and Wayne Embry. Wayne Embry was a below average C; fifth in a 9 team league. Zelmo Beaty (24) was just coming into his own...13 and 11 a game. Ray Scott played all the frontcourt position--more of a forward than a C. Still, he was a 17.6 and 13.5 player in 1964. You are well into the lower half of Cs with the young Beaty and Embry.

And, really, 1964 predates the golden era of the C...which ran from about 1968 to the early 1980s. Stunning starpower. Ridiculous depth. I mean, in 1972, you had Wilt, Kareem, Cowens, Lanier, Unseld, Hayes, Thurmond, Bellamy, and Lucas as starting Cs in a 17 team league. That's more than half the Cs in the league. And you haven't gotten to the second tier guys like Elmore Smith (17.3 and 15.2), Sam Lacey (11.6 and 12.0), Neal Walk (15.7 and 8.2), Bob Rule (15.1 and 7.0), and Zaid Abdul-Aziz (13.8 and 11.3). A couple of those guys were one hit wonders...but we're talking about being 14 teams deep in a 17 team league. Nobody remembers Bob Rule now, but he was a 6-10"-6'11" guy with range that blew out a knee. In the three years before that, he was a star--a 22 and 10 player. He reinjured the knee at the end of the 1972 season, just when he was starting to play at a high level again (he averaged 17 and 8 in the final 60 games). Bob Rule was probably the 13th or 14th best starting C in a 17 team league. Who's the 25th best starter at C today? Does he put up 15.5 and 7? Because, adjusted for current scoring and rebounding, that's what Rule did in his final 60 games

The playoff argument is nice but not really representative in judging the quality of players of the period. Wilt did, indeed, face better competition than Shaq...but it's clearer when reviewing the overall level of Cs during his career, especially in the last half of it.

[ThaRegul8r]

I've praised this thread before, but on the other hand its title scares me a bit...












j/k

lol... oh, it looks like I was making the statement that Wilt had no competition rather than it being clear that "Wilt had no competition" was the myth I was trying to end?

[_BBIB_]

Absolutely great work by whoever did that.

Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest of all time.

The dude was 7'1 275 that many years ago. That's ridiculous. He also ran track. What an athlete he was.

And if they kept up with blocks back then, my goodness his efficiency rating would be through the roof.


As I believe WIlt himself may have said, all the rules were changed to STOP Wilt. All the rules were changed to HELP Jordan.