Jerry Lucas vs. Nate Thurmond

[ronnymac2]

Jerry Lucas vs. Nate Thurmond...who was better in their respective primes?

[TMACFORMVP]

Both were terrific rebounders.....Lucas was the more efficient scorer, but Thurmond was the considerably better defender both man and weak-side. I personally would prefer Nate despite his inefficiency and high volume of shot-taking, but it's definitely close. If Thurmond was more efficient, then it'd easily be him though Lucas might be the better glue guy..

[TheOUTLAW]

I never really saw Thurmond in his prime, but even as an old man he was a beast both on the boards and defensively for the Cavs. He was a great player.

[Samurai]

Saw a lot of both. Both were great rebounders. Nate was one of the best ever defensively - best one-on-one defender of any center I ever saw and also an excellent help defender. Lucas was the better offensive player; he would be better in today's game so that he could take advantage of the 3-point line. Luke had a slight edge as a passer, especially in his NY days. Pretty close to me. I might give Lucas the very slight edge given that he could play both C and PF. I realize Nate played PF a few seasons early in his career when he was teamed with Wilt - that was before I saw him - but given the inconsistency he had with his outside shot I give Lucas the slight edge. Thurmond was a very good center; top of the line defensively and on the boards and probably a not-so-good PF. Lucas was a great PF and an adequate C.

[ronnymac2]

Damn, I made the OP in 2008. Time does fly.

[penbeast0]

Good comp . . .

Lucas played with Oscar Robertson in their primes . . . and didn't accomplish much. In NY he became a valuable backup but without either the scoring or the rebounding that made him an All-Pro.
Thurmond played with Rick Barry in their primes . . . and didn't accomplish much. Then when he got traded for Cliff Ray, a good but not great center, Barry and the Warriors went on to win a title.

I think it would be easier to build an offense that Thurmond wouldn't be taking a lot of shots (he was one of the worst offensive superstars I have ever seen both in terms of shooting and his playmaking was pretty punk too) than it would be to build a defense to hide prime Jerry Lucas so I go with Thurmond as well.

[ThaRegul8r]

I think it would be easier to build an offense that Thurmond wouldn't be taking a lot of shots (he was one of the worst offensive superstars I have ever seen both in terms of shooting and his playmaking was pretty punk too) than it would be to build a defense to hide prime Jerry Lucas so I go with Thurmond as well.

Yeah, I myself would definitely take Thurmond.

On the subject of Thurmond, I said that Thurmond vs. Kareem in '71-72 is possibly the greatest sustained man-to-man defensive performance ever. Kareem's '71-72 was the most efficient scoring season ever at that volume (34.8 ppg).

'71-72 Kareem vs. the rest of the field: 35.3 ppg on 57.9% FG and 60.7% TS
'71-72 Kareem vs. Nate Thurmond: 24 ppg on 44.1% FG and 48.0% TS

Then he continued it into the postseason, holding Kareem to 22.8 points on 40.5 percent shooting and 43.2 percent true shooting, 36.9 percent shooting over the last three games

Combining the regular and postseason:

'71-72 Kareem vs. the rest of the field: 35.1 ppg on 56.8% FG and 59.6% TS
'71-72 Kareem vs. Nate Thurmond: 23.3 ppg on 41.8% FG and 44.9% TS

This is, imo, the greatest individual defensive performance ever. Kareem dropped 55 and 51 on Cowens, 50 on Wilt, but his high against Thurmond was 34. Then you add in the '73 postseason, where Thurmond held Kareem to 22.8 points on 42.8 percent shooting from the floor and 44.7 percent true shooting, and over the course of two postseasons, Thurmond held Kareem to 22.8 points on 41.7 percent shooting and 44.0 percent true shooting in 11 playoff games. No other defender has ever done that to an offensive player of that caliber, and is more evidence that Thurmond is the greatest man-to-man defender at the 5 in NBA history. I take him, as I can definitely use that.

[Johnlac1]

Lucas was pretty good in the sixties, but I don't know if he'd translate well today. Very smart and skilled, and had excellent timing. But he was not real strong or athletic. In his favor, he was an excellent shot from past 20 feet making him one of the few players from that era who was. And an excellent rebounder. But now he'd be a little undersized and not real strong for a pf. Probably not good enough athlete to cover sfs.

Thurmond is in a different category. He'd be an excellent center today chiefly because of his defense and rebounding. He was one of the best shot-blockers, rebounders, and defenders in the league up there with Russell and Chamberlain. On a down note, his off. game was too much shooting jump shots. Not a good scorer inside. Still, his def. and rebounding would make him valuable today.

[Samurai]

Thurmond would be a great defensive center and rebounder in today's game. He was very strong, certainly strong enough to play today's centers. My only issue with him is that he really enjoyed taking long jumpers...and he frankly just wasn't very good at it. Can't remember how many times I yelled "don't shoot" at him when he got the ball!

I have probably seen Lucas play more than most posters here. Saw him extensively during the 70-71 season he spent with the Warriors and a lot on TV when he was traded to the Knicks. But I also went to the summer camp that he and Jeff Mullins ran so I saw him every day for about 6 weeks. I think he would do pretty well in today's NBA.

He would thrive if he had a 3-point line. The only player I see today that had his outside range is Steph Curry. He regularly shot the ball from beyond 25 feet. He had a peculiar-looking shot; looked like a shot put off his right shoulder (kinda similar to Matt Bonner's form). I asked him once how he never seemed to get his shot blocked; if anyone is interested in his answer, just let me know. He was also very effective in the low post. He had played center in college so he grew up playing with his back to the basket. His right-handed hook was deadly. Kareem obviously had the best hook shot I've ever seen, but Lucas was right there in that next tier IMO. To me, his (righty) hook was just as effective as the lefty hooks that Lanier and Cowens had.

Lucas could drive, but it was almost always to his right. If you played him straight up, he could drive to his right very well. Even if the defender kept tight coverage on the drive, Luke could make that right-handed running hook. If you overplayed him to the right, he could take one dribble to his left and still launch that shot put of his moving left, but it was very rare for him to finish to the basket going left.

He was a great rebounder. He spoke a lot about his rebounding success given that he wasn't a great jumper. Again I don't want to ramble, so if anyone is interested in what he said, let me know.

Lucas is often criticized for his defense. My recollection was that he was a very good man-to-man defender in the low block. On the perimeter, he was more exposed since he didn't have great speed or lateral quickness. But he mitigated this by memorizing the opponent's plays, so if you tried to drive on him, Lucas often anticipated that and would beat them to that first step. If he guessed wrong, it was easy to drive past him, but overall I think he was an above average man-to-man defender. To me his real defensive shortcoming was playing off the ball. He had the reputation of being a "stat padder" and he himself stated that it was a near obsession for him to try and grab every defensive rebound. Thus he could be caught watching the ball more than his man so that he could be ready for a possible rebound. He was also a very good passer. Definitely not a ball hog - if his shot wasn't there, he was more than willing to get the ball to a teammate with a better opening. He said that he had memorized where each of his teammates liked to receive the ball and he had the passing accuracy to deliver the ball in their "sweetspot". He amazed me at camp when he demonstrated this skill in a passing drill we did.

Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble here but just wanted to give some context for those that didn't get a chance to see Lucas play regularly. In today's game, I see a lot of similarity to Kevin Love - great outside shooter as well as a post up scorer, great rebounder, very good passer, particularly on the outlet pass after a rebound, average defender.

[ronnymac2]

I asked him once how he never seemed to get his shot blocked; if anyone is interested in his answer, just let me know.

He was a great rebounder. He spoke a lot about his rebounding success given that he wasn't a great jumper. Again I don't want to ramble, so if anyone is interested in what he said, let me know.

Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble here...

Go into your closet, getcha ramblin' hat on, pour yourself a glass of water/beer/pinot noir/whatever your fancy, sit down, and go on as many tangents as you like. You're like 8 posts in and you're already one of my favorites.

[Samurai]

I asked him once how he never seemed to get his shot blocked; if anyone is interested in his answer, just let me know.

He was a great rebounder. He spoke a lot about his rebounding success given that he wasn't a great jumper. Again I don't want to ramble, so if anyone is interested in what he said, let me know.

Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble here...

Go into your closet, getcha ramblin' hat on, pour yourself a glass of water/beer/pinot noir/whatever your fancy, sit down, and go on as many tangents as you like. You're like 8 posts in and you're already one of my favorites.

OK thanks. I realize I am probably a few years older than the typical poster so I'm not sure if my input is relevant to others. I typically only post when people are discussing players from around 69 on since I did see most of the stars back then.

in terms of shooting: I asked Lucas about his jump shot since his form was different from others. As i said, it resembled a shot put type of motion coming from his right shoulder. Somewhat similar to Matt Bonner today, except that Bonner is pretty much just a spot up shooter whereas Luke could launch his shot put moving either right (his preference) or left or on a turnaround. I watched him make a turnaround jumper over Wilt and it was hard for me to understand how he got such a shot off without having it blocked so I asked him about that as well.

Lucas said the important point about shooting accuracy is to have your arm form a straight line to the basket. He felt that any time you brought your arm across your body, whether to hold the ball in front of your face, forehead, or overhead, your shooting arm is no longer vertically straight to the basket, which can cause your shot to veer left or right. He had me stand up and bring my right arm straight up (bending at the elbow). Of course my right hand was now at my right shoulder. He said that was now a straight line to the basket. He said that he may miss a shot because he shot it too far or too short, but he said he almost never missed a shot because it wasn't straight.

As for why it was rarely blocked even though it seemed to be launched from his shoulder - he said first, it someone is close enough that they could actually block it, then you shouldn't be shooting. Someone else is bound to be more open than you. Second, even though the ball starts at his shoulder, he doesn't actually release the ball until his hand is around the right side of the top of his head so he didn't feel the height of his release point was much lower than others. Third, he always shot with a high arc making it harder to block. Finally, he said he usually played center until he turned pro even though he was only 6-8, so growing up he usually went against someone taller than him. As a result, he started "jumping backward" as a kid whenever he used his jump shot to get it over his taller opponent, to the point that this was now his natural jumping motion. Thus his typical jump shot actually turned into a natural fadeaway, even on his long range bombs. He did smile and say that he did consciously jump backward "a little farther than normal" when he was guarded by Wilt or Russell!

On rebounding: he had excellent boxing out technique; it was very rare for anyone to get past him when he boxed them out unless they tried to go over his back. If the person who was boxed out tried to just outjump him, he would just slide his hips back a bit to cause the jumper to lose balance. if they fell on top of Lucas, the other guy going over his back would frequently be called for a foul. But he felt his biggest reason for his rebounding success was that he was a great position rebounder and he credited his famous memory skills for it. He said that after watching "thousands of shots" growing up, he had memorized where the likely rebound spots would be based on where the shot was taken from and the arc of the ball. So while most players would just take up a random position under the basket, once he saw the ball leave the shooter's hand he pretty much "knew" where the likely rebound would be and would ignore where the others were and just went to that spot. If the shot didn't go in, Lucas was often the guy in the perfect position for the rebound. He said if you have good technique and are in the right position, you don't have to be able to jump out of the gym to grab a rebound.

By the way, offensive rebounds weren't tracked until his last year. With no offensive rebound stats, some may wonder how he would compare to someone like Dennis Rodman as a rebounder. My observation was the Lucas was a very good, but not great, offensive rebounder. He certainly grabbed his share, and was extremely good at putting it back in the basket, but there was just no comparison between Lucas and someone like Moses Malone or Rodman on the offensive glass. But I think he was their equal as a defensive rebounder. I read an article somewhere where he said that he felt he had to grab every defensive rebound, like it was an obsession to him. When I saw him play, he would tend to lose track of his man so that he could see when someone was shooting - it seemed that getting in perfect rebound position was just a much higher priority to him than staying with his guy. So on one hand, that approach made him a defensive rebounding machine. On the other hand, his man would often sneak open for a shot, thus giving Lucas the reputation of being a poor defender.

In regards to his reputation as a stat padder, I'm sure that his obsession with getting every rebound, even if it mean leaving his man unguarded, was a factor in that reputation. There was a story that before he was traded to SF, as a member of the Royals he once ran past the scorer's table when he was supposed to get back on D to let the scorer know he missed a rebound that Lucas should have gotten credit for! I never saw him do that, but it was pretty well known that he always had the up-to-date box score memorized and he was maybe a bit OCD if there were any inaccuracies, especially regarding his own stats! If that happened, it probably didn't enhance his defensive reputation if you are yelling at the scorer instead of guarding your man and likely gave more credence to his reputation as a stat-padder.

Lucas was very underrated as a passer. He was an extremely talented passer. He stressed that just "getting the ball to your teammate" does not mean it was a good pass. It has to be delivered at just the right time and in just the right position so that your teammate could score in order to be considered a good pass. He said that he had memorized the various "sweet spots" for all his teammates based on where they were on the court and their shooting motion. He had us run a drill where the person designated to shoot on a particular play would run to the designated spot and then hold our hands in our "sweet spot". If the pass was a little off target, we were not supposed to move our hands to catch it. Instead the ball would sail past us so the passer could see he missed the "sweet spot". If we caught it in the right spot but the defender had a chance to get up in our face, we were to drop the ball so the passer could see that it wasn't delivered at the right time. If you ever tried a drill like that, you would know just how hard it is to pass with perfect accuracy and timing. None of us could get the hang of it; it seemed impossible and we were getting pretty dejected and frustrated. So Lucas took the ball and had Jeff Mullins (a very good shooter in his own right) play the shooter, with his assistants (local college players) as the defenders and told us to watch. It was incredible; no matter where Mullins put his hands, Lucas put the ball EXACTLY there and in one motion Mullins went up and made the shot before the defender could stop it. And Mullins would change his hand position each time! Over and over and over, it was just beautiful to watch! That was almost as impressive as watching Lucas warm up by tossing in those shot put jumpers from 25 feet and hitting nothing but net.

Anyway, enough rambling from a summer camp that took place 44 years ago. But it provided me with memories to last a lifetime. I'm not so nostalgic that I am claiming Lucas was the GOAT PF. He wasn't perfect. But I sure wish he could play today with a 3-point line!

[Johnlac1]

I asked him once how he never seemed to get his shot blocked; if anyone is interested in his answer, just let me know.

He was a great rebounder. He spoke a lot about his rebounding success given that he wasn't a great jumper. Again I don't want to ramble, so if anyone is interested in what he said, let me know.

Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble here...

Go into your closet, getcha ramblin' hat on, pour yourself a glass of water/beer/pinot noir/whatever your fancy, sit down, and go on as many tangents as you like. You're like 8 posts in and you're already one of my favorites.

OK thanks. I realize I am probably a few years older than the typical poster so I'm not sure if my input is relevant to others. I typically only post when people are discussing players from around 69 on since I did see most of the stars back then.

in terms of shooting: I asked Lucas about his jump shot since his form was different from others. As i said, it resembled a shot put type of motion coming from his right shoulder. Somewhat similar to Matt Bonner today, except that Bonner is pretty much just a spot up shooter whereas Luke could launch his shot put moving either right (his preference) or left or on a turnaround. I watched him make a turnaround jumper over Wilt and it was hard for me to understand how he got such a shot off without having it blocked so I asked him about that as well.

Lucas said the important point about shooting accuracy is to have your arm form a straight line to the basket. He felt that any time you brought your arm across your body, whether to hold the ball in front of your face, forehead, or overhead, your shooting arm is no longer vertically straight to the basket, which can cause your shot to veer left or right. He had me stand up and bring my right arm straight up (bending at the elbow). Of course my right hand was now at my right shoulder. He said that was now a straight line to the basket. He said that he may miss a shot because he shot it too far or too short, but he said he almost never missed a shot because it wasn't straight.

As for why it was rarely blocked even though it seemed to be launched from his shoulder - he said first, it someone is close enough that they could actually block it, then you shouldn't be shooting. Someone else is bound to be more open than you. Second, even though the ball starts at his shoulder, he doesn't actually release the ball until his hand is around the right side of the top of his head so he didn't feel the height of his release point was much lower than others. Third, he always shot with a high arc making it harder to block. Finally, he said he usually played center until he turned pro even though he was only 6-8, so growing up he usually went against someone taller than him. As a result, he started "jumping backward" as a kid whenever he used his jump shot to get it over his taller opponent, to the point that this was now his natural jumping motion. Thus his typical jump shot actually turned into a natural fadeaway, even on his long range bombs. He did smile and say that he did consciously jump backward "a little farther than normal" when he was guarded by Wilt or Russell!

On rebounding: he had excellent boxing out technique; it was very rare for anyone to get past him when he boxed them out unless they tried to go over his back. If the person who was boxed out tried to just outjump him, he would just slide his hips back a bit to cause the jumper to lose balance. if they fell on top of Lucas, the other guy going over his back would frequently be called for a foul. But he felt his biggest reason for his rebounding success was that he was a great position rebounder and he credited his famous memory skills for it. He said that after watching "thousands of shots" growing up, he had memorized where the likely rebound spots would be based on where the shot was taken from and the arc of the ball. So while most players would just take up a random position under the basket, once he saw the ball leave the shooter's hand he pretty much "knew" where the likely rebound would be and would ignore where the others were and just went to that spot. If the shot didn't go in, Lucas was often the guy in the perfect position for the rebound. He said if you have good technique and are in the right position, you don't have to be able to jump out of the gym to grab a rebound.

By the way, offensive rebounds weren't tracked until his last year. With no offensive rebound stats, some may wonder how he would compare to someone like Dennis Rodman as a rebounder. My observation was the Lucas was a very good, but not great, offensive rebounder. He certainly grabbed his share, and was extremely good at putting it back in the basket, but there was just no comparison between Lucas and someone like Moses Malone or Rodman on the offensive glass. But I think he was their equal as a defensive rebounder. I read an article somewhere where he said that he felt he had to grab every defensive rebound, like it was an obsession to him. When I saw him play, he would tend to lose track of his man so that he could see when someone was shooting - it seemed that getting in perfect rebound position was just a much higher priority to him than staying with his guy. So on one hand, that approach made him a defensive rebounding machine. On the other hand, his man would often sneak open for a shot, thus giving Lucas the reputation of being a poor defender.

In regards to his reputation as a stat padder, I'm sure that his obsession with getting every rebound, even if it mean leaving his man unguarded, was a factor in that reputation. There was a story that before he was traded to SF, as a member of the Royals he once ran past the scorer's table when he was supposed to get back on D to let the scorer know he missed a rebound that Lucas should have gotten credit for! I never saw him do that, but it was pretty well known that he always had the up-to-date box score memorized and he was maybe a bit OCD if there were any inaccuracies, especially regarding his own stats! If that happened, it probably didn't enhance his defensive reputation if you are yelling at the scorer instead of guarding your man and likely gave more credence to his reputation as a stat-padder.

Lucas was very underrated as a passer. He was an extremely talented passer. He stressed that just "getting the ball to your teammate" does not mean it was a good pass. It has to be delivered at just the right time and in just the right position so that your teammate could score in order to be considered a good pass. He said that he had memorized the various "sweet spots" for all his teammates based on where they were on the court and their shooting motion. He had us run a drill where the person designated to shoot on a particular play would run to the designated spot and then hold our hands in our "sweet spot". If the pass was a little off target, we were not supposed to move our hands to catch it. Instead the ball would sail past us so the passer could see he missed the "sweet spot". If we caught it in the right spot but the defender had a chance to get up in our face, we were to drop the ball so the passer could see that it wasn't delivered at the right time. If you ever tried a drill like that, you would know just how hard it is to pass with perfect accuracy and timing. None of us could get the hang of it; it seemed impossible and we were getting pretty dejected and frustrated. So Lucas took the ball and had Jeff Mullins (a very good shooter in his own right) play the shooter, with his assistants (local college players) as the defenders and told us to watch. It was incredible; no matter where Mullins put his hands, Lucas put the ball EXACTLY there and in one motion Mullins went up and made the shot before the defender could stop it. And Mullins would change his hand position each time! Over and over and over, it was just beautiful to watch! That was almost as impressive as watching Lucas warm up by tossing in those shot put jumpers from 25 feet and hitting nothing but net.

Anyway, enough rambling from a summer camp that took place 44 years ago. But it provided me with memories to last a lifetime. I'm not so nostalgic that I am claiming Lucas was the GOAT PF. He wasn't perfect. But I sure wish he could play today with a 3-point line!

The Knicks from the early '70s would have been an interesting team with a three pt. line. They had three players who could make at least the corner shot...Lucas, DeBusschere, and Bradley. Lucas and DeBusschere usually took their long shots from the top of the key or the elbow. I was watching a Bucks-Knicks game from 1970 on the internet a while ago, and I was surprised to see DeBusschere come around a screen about five feet from the top of the key, take a pass, and make the shot. It looked like a legitimate modern three pointer. DeBusschere used to take and make a lot of those kinds of shots.

[Samurai]

[/quote]
The Knicks from the early '70s would have been an interesting team with a three pt. line. They had three players who could make at least the corner shot...Lucas, DeBusschere, and Bradley. Lucas and DeBusschere usually took their long shots from the top of the key or the elbow. I was watching a Bucks-Knicks game from 1970 on the internet a while ago, and I was surprised to see DeBusschere come around a screen about five feet from the top of the key, take a pass, and make the shot. It looked like a legitimate modern three pointer. DeBusschere used to take and make a lot of those kinds of shots.[/quote]

I think you are right about that. Lucas would clearly have been the best of the Knicks at shooting 3's. Bradley would have been fine shooting 3's out of the corner. DeBusschere did indeed hit a few from straight away from 3-point land, although he was the steakiest of the three. He could hit some cold streaks where he just absolutely could not buy a basket.

Unlike other teams that rely on the guards being able to stretch the defense hitting 3's so the big guys could work underneath, the Knicks were the opposite. Neither Monroe nor Frazier would have been prolific at shooting 3's; they did their best work posting up. Frazier was also deadly with his midrange jumper. Frazier and Monroe would clearly have benefited in having better spacing from a 3-point line with the bigs on defense having to keep an eye on Lucas, DeBusschere and Bradley and leaving Monroe and Frazier to chew up their guards down low without having their big guys to help out. In today's game, Reed also would be a solid midrange shooter but not a threat from beyond the arc.

Watching the 2014 Spurs was similar to watching the Knicks of the early 70's in that they had great movement and passing. A 3-point line to spread the defense out further would have only made their passing and cutting to the basket even more effective.

[penbeast0]

You also might find that, like Chris Bosh this year, Reed and possibly Frazier/Barnett/Monroe would see that shot paying off and work it into their repetoire. There are a lot of guys shooting threes in the league that didn't have that shot consistently in college . . . including Kwahi Leonard whose shooting range was a big question on his draft report.

[Samurai]

You also might find that, like Chris Bosh this year, Reed and possibly Frazier/Barnett/Monroe would see that shot paying off and work it into their repetoire. There are a lot of guys shooting threes in the league that didn't have that shot consistently in college . . . including Kwahi Leonard whose shooting range was a big question on his draft report.

It certainly is possible, but I do have my doubts. Bradley should be fine on three's; he regularly hit deep corner shots and whether he was 21 feet or 21 and a half feet away, he should be just as good if he had the chance to practice from 22 feet away in the corners. DeBusschere often shot from beyond 23-9, but he wasn't particularly accurate from there. My concern is he may be willing to chuck them up a lot but not shoot a good percentage (similar to a Jared Sullivan). Reed was a pretty good shot from 15-17 feet, but noticeably less accurate if he went out to beyond 20 feet. I'm not sure if moving another 3+ feet farther out would improve his shooting. As a lefty, Reed's stroke looks visually similar to David Lee; Lee can hit the midrange jumper if you leave him open (better last year than this season), but he's just not a threat from beyond the arc.

Monroe was frequently left open if he was 20 feet away. And for good reason - he just wasn't much of a threat from there. He only attempted those shots if wide open, he just didn't seem to hit a high percentage of them. Frazier was deadly accurate up to 20 feet. My concern (prejudice) was his form - he shot the ball holding the ball over his head with his elbows spread out to the sides. Off the top of my head, the only ones I can recall who shot the ball in a similar manner were Nate Thurmond and Julius Erving, neither of whom were particularly accurate from long range. Frazier was much better than both in the midrange area, but I just have my doubts if he would be a threat from beyond the arc with that shooting style.

So in terms of confidence, I am highly confident that Lucas would be among the leaders in three's in today's game; his accuracy from well beyond the arc was just absolutely uncanny. Bradley would be a concern to defenses, particularly in the corners. DeBusschere would hit a few, but I fear he would be shooting at less than 30% from there. I don't see Reed or Monroe being a big threat from beyond the arc. Frazier is the wild card to me; my concerns are based solely on his shooting style. But he was so good up to 20 feet, that if he had the reason to practice from that distance, his shooting skill was tremendous and he could develop that type of range.

[Johnlac1]

You also might find that, like Chris Bosh this year, Reed and possibly Frazier/Barnett/Monroe would see that shot paying off and work it into their repetoire. There are a lot of guys shooting threes in the league that didn't have that shot consistently in college . . . including Kwahi Leonard whose shooting range was a big question on his draft report.

A starting five of Willis Reed-C, Lucas-pf, DeBusschere sf, Frazier pg, and Monroe sg would be a little undersized, but it could compete with a lot of today's starting fives. Many teams from the pre 80s era had small pfs and sfs compared to today. But if those teams put their pfs at the sfs and brought one of their "big" men off the bench, they wouldn't look too bad. And many teams have both guards, pg and sg, 6'3 or under.

[Johnlac1]

You also might find that, like Chris Bosh this year, Reed and possibly Frazier/Barnett/Monroe would see that shot paying off and work it into their repetoire. There are a lot of guys shooting threes in the league that didn't have that shot consistently in college . . . including Kwahi Leonard whose shooting range was a big question on his draft report.

It certainly is possible, but I do have my doubts. Bradley should be fine on three's; he regularly hit deep corner shots and whether he was 21 feet or 21 and a half feet away, he should be just as good if he had the chance to practice from 22 feet away in the corners. DeBusschere often shot from beyond 23-9, but he wasn't particularly accurate from there. My concern is he may be willing to chuck them up a lot but not shoot a good percentage (similar to a Jared Sullivan). Reed was a pretty good shot from 15-17 feet, but noticeably less accurate if he went out to beyond 20 feet. I'm not sure if moving another 3+ feet farther out would improve his shooting. As a lefty, Reed's stroke looks visually similar to David Lee; Lee can hit the midrange jumper if you leave him open (better last year than this season), but he's just not a threat from beyond the arc.

Monroe was frequently left open if he was 20 feet away. And for good reason - he just wasn't much of a threat from there. He only attempted those shots if wide open, he just didn't seem to hit a high percentage of them. Frazier was deadly accurate up to 20 feet. My concern (prejudice) was his form - he shot the ball holding the ball over his head with his elbows spread out to the sides. Off the top of my head, the only ones I can recall who shot the ball in a similar manner were Nate Thurmond and Julius Erving, neither of whom were particularly accurate from long range. Frazier was much better than both in the midrange area, but I just have my doubts if he would be a threat from beyond the arc with that shooting style.

So in terms of confidence, I am highly confident that Lucas would be among the leaders in three's in today's game; his accuracy from well beyond the arc was just absolutely uncanny. Bradley would be a concern to defenses, particularly in the corners. DeBusschere would hit a few, but I fear he would be shooting at less than 30% from there. I don't see Reed or Monroe being a big threat from beyond the arc. Frazier is the wild card to me; my concerns are based solely on his shooting style. But he was so good up to 20 feet, that if he had the reason to practice from that distance, his shooting skill was tremendous and he could develop that type of range.

Frazier had a unique jump shot. Not textbook, but he was one of the few guards I've seen from any era who had sort of an up and under jumper. He would frequently fake his man into the air, jump off one foot, and shoot what could be called a leaner. Which he made at a very high pct. It also left him in excellent off. rebounding position.

[Dipper 13]

Third, he always shot with a high arc making it harder to block.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6kIu34Qsc&t=7m56s


Sports Illustrated - Oct 8, 1973

Of the high arch, Lucas himself says, "The best way to put an object in a wastebasket is from above. That's the angle I aim for."

[Samurai]

[
Frazier had a unique jump shot. Not textbook, but he was one of the few guards I've seen from any era who had sort of an up and under jumper. He would frequently fake his man into the air, jump off one foot, and shoot what could be called a leaner. Which he made at a very high pct. It also left him in excellent off. rebounding position.[/quote]

Both Frazier and Monroe were experts at using the pump fake to get the defender in the air. Frazier was indeed outstanding at "the leaner" while Monroe had a myriad of off-balance jumpers that he could hit as the defender was coming down. They were a great backcourt combo - I just remain skeptical if they would be good 3-point shooters in today's game.

And gangly Phil Jackson could be effective at times with a midrange turnaround along the baseline.

[Johnlac1]

[
Frazier had a unique jump shot. Not textbook, but he was one of the few guards I've seen from any era who had sort of an up and under jumper. He would frequently fake his man into the air, jump off one foot, and shoot what could be called a leaner. Which he made at a very high pct. It also left him in excellent off. rebounding position.

Both Frazier and Monroe were experts at using the pump fake to get the defender in the air. Frazier was indeed outstanding at "the leaner" while Monroe had a myriad of off-balance jumpers that he could hit as the defender was coming down. They were a great backcourt combo - I just remain skeptical if they would be good 3-point shooters in today's game.

And gangly Phil Jackson could be effective at times with a midrange turnaround along the baseline.[/quote]
There again we're talking about an era where the best athletes were able to get good 15-17 foot jumpers. Of the three best guards from the sixties (Robertson, West, Frazier), West had the best form and was probably the one most likely to be a good three ball shooter. You mentioned Fraziers unconventional jump shot. Of course, if they had played with a three point line, many of those players might have been forced to change their shooting forms accordingly. I think Monroe would have adapted a little better than Frazier to a three point line, but Frazier's game didn't need him taking long shots even if they'd had the three at the time. Tony Parker just about never shoots a three either.