Hawks trade Lou Williams & Bebe to Toronto for John Salmons

[Jamaaliver]

Surely, you don't believe this.

I absolutely believe it.

I would say Bebe being involved in this trade is the only way he could ever benefit us for 10+ years.

On this, I would massively disagree. I see a Defensive Center as the second most important role in Basketball. At every level.

The addition of players that we are able to land due to the cap space saved by this trade could be the difference in us winning or losing a playoff series this coming season. The respect we garner across the league, based on our playoff performance, will have a serious impact on our quest to eventually land a star in free agency.

I don't think anyone cares outside of Atlanta. We've spent decades earning our reputation as a franchise that is irrelevant. Our ownership has spent years gaining a reputation as a bunch of incompetent, bickering skin-flints.

I do not believe a single playoff series win changes that. I believe it will take a strong franchise showing for decades.

As a man, I preach that the quick fix is rarely the long term solution. Having a farm system with talented youngsters on reasonable contracts to groom for years was the unsexy way to attain relevance in the league. But Ferry has abandoned that line of thinking in only one week.

Time will tell. But if we top out next playoffs in the second round yet again...

<sigh>

[PandaKidd]

We have a long term talent in Tavares.

Maybe Ferry views him as more viable than bebe?

I mean youre suggesting that anyone we pick in the first draft, EVEN in the WORST DRAFT in 15 years, isnt expendable. Especially when we have not realized what his annexation will bring us because we havent landed a FA yet

[MaceCase]

Panda, you forgot that we traded all our current prospects and future picks in this trade. Ferry has absolutely razed the farm to the ground, salted the earth and gone all in on a win now approach.

[PandaKidd]

Panda, you forgot that we traded all our current prospects and future picks in this trade. Ferry has absolutely razed the farm to the ground, salted the earth and gone all in on a win now approach.

Bebe?

We still have Muscala, Scott, Jenkins, Schroeder right? who else did we get rid of? Didnt we get a 2nd round pick in this deal too , has that been figured out yet?

[Jamaaliver]

Panda, you forgot that we traded all our current prospects and future picks in this trade. Ferry has absolutely razed the farm to the ground, salted the earth and gone all in on a win now approach.

I understand this was a sarcastic response directed at me, that's fine.

My question is, do we really feel like we have any viable prospects?

Dennis looked really bad last year. Jenkins was hurt, but before that Bud seemed reluctant to include him in the rotation. Preferring defensive veterans like Cartier Martin last November.

Other than Payne, is there anyone in our 'farm system' we have faith in to be a long term contributor?

I'll give you Mike Scott. Beyond that, I see no definitives. Only maybes and possibilities.

[Jamaaliver]

Panda, you forgot that we traded all our current prospects and future picks in this trade. Ferry has absolutely razed the farm to the ground, salted the earth and gone all in on a win now approach.

Bebe?

We still have Muscala, Scott, Jenkins, Schroeder right? who else did we get rid of? Didnt we get a 2nd round pick in this deal too , has that been figured out yet?

Sarcasm. Aimed at me...

[PandaKidd]

Panda, you forgot that we traded all our current prospects and future picks in this trade. Ferry has absolutely razed the farm to the ground, salted the earth and gone all in on a win now approach.

I understand this was a sarcastic response directed at me, that's fine.

My question is, do we really feel like we have any viable prospects?

Dennis looked really bad last year. Jenkins was hurt, but before that Bud seemed reluctant to include him in the rotation. Preferring defensive veterans like Cartier Martin last November.

Other than Payne, is there anyone in our 'farm system' we have faith in to be a long term contributor?

I'll give you Mike Scott. Beyond that, I see no definitives. Only maybes and possibilities.

Fair point.

However do you also realize that not every prospect works out. Just have a little context here.

Ferry Drafted Scott and Jenkins. Scott turned out to be a NICE bench piece. Hopefully he keeps improving. Jenkins was injured, lets see what he does this year (assuming he gets some minutes).

Schroeder/Bebe/Muscala
I never thought Bebe was anything more than just a roll of the dice. Muscala looked promising, still not sold on him being more than a minor contributor because it was obvious he was undersized (weight) last season and the game seemed MUCH to fast for him. Schroeder, hes still got 1-2 seasons before I make a guess, he looked pretty bad last year but had flashes of decency.

This year we are obviously undecided as no player has played a game yet.

If youre telling me that TRADING 1 player for 4.5 million in cap space out of 5, is completely decimating our farm system, I dont know what to tell you.

Again, lets see what the BEBE pick turns into. I think its blatantly obvious that Horford is playing CENTER and we are not going after anyone to take that role from him.

[Jamaaliver]

If youre telling me that TRADING 1 player for 4.5 million in cap space out of 5, is completely decimating our farm system, I dont know what to tell you.

Again, lets see what the BEBE pick turns into. I think its blatantly obvious that Horford is playing CENTER and we are not going after anyone to take that role from him.

Again, I can't emphasize this enough. I don't care about Bebe Nogueira.

What concerns me, is that we apparently have a GM willing to discard draft picks for cap space.

He is no longing following the Spurs plan.

He is following the Pat Riley plan to contention.

This terrifies me.

[MaceCase]

Panda, you forgot that we traded all our current prospects and future picks in this trade. Ferry has absolutely razed the farm to the ground, salted the earth and gone all in on a win now approach.

I understand this was a sarcastic response directed at me, that's fine.

My question is, do we really feel like we have any viable prospects?

Dennis looked really bad last year. Jenkins was hurt, but before that Bud seemed reluctant to include him in the rotation. Preferring defensive veterans like Cartier Martin last November.

Other than Payne, is there anyone in our 'farm system' we have faith in to be a long term contributor?

I'll give you Mike Scott. Beyond that, I see no definitives. Only maybes and possibilities.

Yes, I feel all the prospects are equally viable and the team only gave up one, received another draft asset and opened up the opportunity to amass a greater amount of assets. You were heavily critical of Bebe not even a week ago being a long-term contributor, questioning his weight, his ability, his knees and him coming off the bench once a week in Europe and now you've all of a sudden flipped your tune to he is the surest prospect the hawks had in their "farm" that was more than likely to contribute to the franchise for an entire decade because you've somehow now seen more positives out of him than any one else on the roster or "farm".........that sounds like pure hypocrisy amongst other things.

[MaceCase]

Again, I can't emphasize this enough. I don't care about Bebe Nogueira.

What concerns me, is that we apparently have a GM willing to discard draft picks for cap space.

He is no longing following the Spurs plan.

He is following the Pat Riley plan to contention.

This terrifies me.

Yea, it's not like the Spurs ever gave up guys like Luis Scola, Goran Dragic, Nando de Colo or Ian Mahinmi for cap savings. When I think of Spurs, cap conscious never once crosses my mind.

[PandaKidd]

If youre telling me that TRADING 1 player for 4.5 million in cap space out of 5, is completely decimating our farm system, I dont know what to tell you.

Again, lets see what the BEBE pick turns into. I think its blatantly obvious that Horford is playing CENTER and we are not going after anyone to take that role from him.

Again, I can't emphasize this enough. I don't care about Bebe Nogueira.

What concerns me, is that we apparently have a GM willing to discard draft picks for cap space.

He is no longing following the Spurs plan.

He is following the Pat Riley plan to contention.

This terrifies me.

Yeah but CONTEXT sir! Not all 1st round picks are the same right? 15th isnt the same as #1 or 29 right?

He discarded A draft pick to free space for A player (we dont know that player YET).

Are you telling me the Spurs have never traded a 1st round pick.......EVER?

[Jamaaliver]

Yea, it's not like the Spurs ever gave up guys like Luis Scola, Goran Dragic, Nando de Colo or Ian Mahinmi for cap savings. When I think of Spurs, cap conscious never once crosses my mind.

Again, with sarcasm...aimed at me. And that's fine.

I would say the difference is that SAS had Hall of Famers manning a couple of those same positions, and were already title contenders when they dumped those guys.

For a team lacking in front court depth, with middling talent, nowhere near contention to give up a young Center prospect with little compensation in return...I would quantify it as slightly different.

As a poster here much smarter than myself likes to say, 'It's an apples to oranges comparison.'

Yeah but CONTEXT sir! Not all 1st round picks are the same right? 15th isnt the same as #1 or 29 right?He discarded A draft pick to free space for A player (we dont know that player YET).Are you telling me the Spurs have never traded a 1st round pick.......EVER?

Hey, if he has a back room deal that definitely brings in Carmelo Anthony , it's a no-brainer. If he pawned off a young prospect on the off chance Lebron wants to come here...that's another story.

Recent years, we've seen established ALL Stars traded for young players/prospects/picks: Shaq, Ray Allen, KG, Pau Gasol, Kidd, Deron Williams, Chris Paul.

In the past, we haven't been linked to any of those trades because we OVER VALUED our young core and refused to engage. Now, I fear we are totally undervaluing young players/prospects/picks by callously throwing them away.

And, again, if we're doing so with the HOPE of attracting a free agent, that's a really dangerous move. If we're doing it with a specific trade already in the works (Harden, Joakim, K-Love), it at least makes more sense. I'll gladly admit I was wrong and swear fealty to D Ferry.

[PandaKidd]

FWIW, Grantland Podcast (BS REPORT) on the trade.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=11157303

Starts at the 29 minute mark. They all agree :
A) Ferry has a major move up his sleeve potentially
B) They liked the trade
C) They dont believe its Deng or Stephenson

[MaceCase]

Yea, it's not like the Spurs ever gave up guys like Luis Scola, Goran Dragic, Nando de Colo or Ian Mahinmi for cap savings. When I think of Spurs, cap conscious never once crosses my mind.

Again, with sarcasm...aimed at me. And that's fine.

I would say the difference is that SAS had Hall of Famers manning a couple of those same positions, and were already title contenders when they dumped those guys.

For a team lacking in front court depth, with middling talent, nowhere near contention to give up a young Center prospect with little compensation in return...I would quantify it as slightly different.

As a poster here much smarter than myself likes to say, 'It's an apples to oranges comparison.'
.

OK. If it's your contention that the Hawks are not a comparison for the Spurs then why have you, yes you in particular, continuously mentioned the Hawks being modeled on the Spurs on numerous occasions and more importantly, said that Ferry has abandoned the Spurs way?

[Jamaaliver]

OK. If it's your contention that the Hawks are not a comparison for the Spurs then why have you, yes you in particular, continuously mentioned the Hawks being modeled on the Spurs on numerous occasions and more importantly, said that Ferry has abandoned the Spurs way?

That is a very good question, Mace. Thank you for the opportunity to answer it.

We all know SAS had a start on their road to contention by lucking into two #1 picks who are among the greatest to ever play. Lucking into Duncan and Robinson made them instant contenders 17 years ago. But it's been their drafting, primarily, that has helped them to remain contenders over the last decade plus. Their most recent teams were good enough to reach the Finals featuring mostly foreign players, many of whom were drafted and groomed by SAS:

Manu, T Parker, Tiago, Kawhi were all drafted by the Spurs. These, in addition to Duncan, are the key cogs that make the team go.

They have also primarily gotten cheap vets whose stock was low and rehabbed them into useful role players. Particularly on the wings. Today they feature cast offs like Danny Green, Boris Diaw, Patty Mills. Guys conidered largely useless by most teams. But this practice goes back years: Stephen Jackson, Michael Finley, Robert Horry, Brent Barry, Bruce Bowen, Mario Elie, Sean Elliott. For more than a decade the Spurs have acquired vets long forsaken by other NBA teams.

Lastly, it' been their stability amongst major working parts that has allowed them to substitute minor cogs in almost seamlessly over the years.

I assumed we were headed in that general direction.
Drafting and then grooming pieces to play the style of ball we want to play.
Bringing in low cost veteran wings like Demarre Carroll and Cartier Martin to supplement those young pieces as they grow.
And fostering an atmosphere of stability, where players know their system, their teammates and their coach so well that they can operate as a well oiled machine.

We seem to be departing this method, for the 2nd consecutive offseason. Last year, Ferry attempted to buy a top player and jump from mediocrity to elite in a single swoop. This year, there appears to be yet another major attempt to make the jump via Free Agency or trade.

But when I look at SAS, I see starting lineup comprised of 4 draftees and a young player groomed in the Spurs minor leagues. Very little major overhauling from year to year.

Ferry has taken a few cues from the SAS playbook, but seems like he's also mimicking the approach of Danny Ainge and Pat Riley. I am fearful these methodologies are in direct contrast. Meaning we might get stuck with something less than ideal in the long term.

[PandaKidd]

We seem to be departing this method, for the 2nd consecutive offseason. Last year, Ferry attempted to buy a top player and jump from mediocrity to elite in a single swoop. This year, there appears to be yet another major attempt to make the jump via Free Agency or trade.

But thats where I think this disconnect is. Last year outside of Ferry ASKING to meet with D12, what did he do? You would have been screaming had he not even attempted to meet with D12 right?

I think he did his due diligence. I think he through a scenario at him, and it doesnt really matter what his answer was. If it was yes, GREAT, Ferry is the savior of ATL. If he said no, it wasnt really expected but we got in the national media, etc.

I just dont think the idea of D12/CP3 or LBJ/Melo is REALLY serious, not in the Ferry circle. Its a pipe dream, they know it. You should always ASK, but you have to be realistic.

He tore down the team last year because it was the first time in his tenure that he COULD. He got rid of a bunch of talent we all didnt like. It was more about reshaping the team for his first coach than going after a major FA.

But when I look at SAS, I see starting lineup comprised of 4 draftees and a young player groomed in the Spurs minor leagues. Very little major overhauling from year to year.

We follow a spurs model, but we arent the spurs. we dont have all stars and HOFers. We dont have #1 draft picks. Ferry has done exactly what he said he would do, stay flexible and field the best team possible.

You started a thread about doing anything possible to land Kyrie Irving, Ferry is positioning himself to make a run a major FA and you are advocating staying the course on a 15th draft pick that never played a game for us?

I just dont understand i guess

[Jamaaliver]

But thats where I think this disconnect is. Last year outside of Ferry ASKING to meet with D12, what did he do? You would have been screaming had he not even attempted to meet with D12 right?

I just dont think the idea of D12/CP3 or LBJ/Melo is REALLY serious, not in the Ferry circle. Its a pipe dream, they know it. You should always ASK, but you have to be realistic.

You're going to hate my answer...but you already know what it is. We never had a shot at Dwight. So I'd have focused my energies from day one in another direction. Perhaps dealing a certain malcontent of a PF.

We follow a spurs model, but we arent the spurs. we dont have all stars and HOFers. We dont have #1 draft picks. Ferry has done exactly what he said he would do, stay flexible and field the best team possible.

You started a thread about doing anything possible to land Kyrie Irving, Ferry is positioning himself to make a run a major FA and you are advocating staying the course on a 15th draft pick that never played a game for us?

I just dont understand i guess

SAS found all stars and HOFers in the draft, all lower (non-lottery) picks after Duncan. THAT'S the SAS approach I was expecting. This goes back to not playing Dennis, trading Bebe, not dealing up in THIS draft or last draft for a young star to groom.

[MaceCase]

We all know SAS had a start on their road to contention by lucking into two #1 picks who are among the greatest to ever play.

The rest is blah blah and blah. You are the number one person claiming the Spurs way. You point out that Ferry is "departing" the Spurs way because he traded away a prospect... Then you claim that when the Spurs do the exact same thing it is somehow not at all applicable to the Hawks because they are contenders thanks of course to their best player being a lotto pick..


Er, there's a disconnect here. If there is no Duncan then there is no comparison to the Spurs. Ferry has not departed or left or abandoned the "Spurs way" because he was never on that road to begin with.

Ferry refusing to tank, that's a legitimate argument for claiming he's departing the Spurs way.

Ferry trading a midrange prospect....that is the Spurs way because it is an action that the Spurs have actually performed that the Hawks are duplicating...

The sole difference is that the Spurs traded those players in order to afford their Hall of Famers whereas the Hawks are trading this one prospect so that they may be able to afford Hall of Famers.

Someone (you) jumping out of their seat making such ridiculous proclamations that the GM has abandoned a model when he is actively attempting to find the crux of that model, SUPERSTARS!, is just the same old tired and poorly reasoned antics that we've come to expect. You can have all the foreign draft picks you want, it doesn't make a lick of difference until you actually have a franchise caliber player holding it all down otherwise you're just the mid 2000s Raptors.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Come on now jamaal. Dont skip over responding to the major contradiction that PK pointed out. You were the main person pushing for us to go after irving or love with a max deal. This was no more than 6 weeks ago. When and why did your opinion do a 180?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Jamaaliver]

We all know SAS had a start on their road to contention by lucking into two #1 picks who are among the greatest to ever play.

The rest is blah blah and blah...

I am sorry, Mace. I sat down and attempted to give you a long well thought out response to your question.

Thanks for being such a nice guy...