Horford still waiting on big-man help

[Jamaaliver]

What I don't get is how can a guy as big as he is, complain about not wanting to bang against 5's

I think the issue is less about the talent of the opposing Centers he faces, but the size and strength. Defensively, it's extremely taxing to simply guard/box out against guys that are 30-50 pounds heavier than you night in and night out.

In the East alone He faces:

Drummond (270 lbs)
Lopez (7ft 275 lbs)
Jefferson (290 lbs)
Vucevic (7ft 250)
Hibbert (7'2" 290 lbs)

plus defensive seven footers like Noah and Chandler. And a number of teams employ bigger players at backup Center as well.

Again, it is exhausting to have to guard bigger guys every game. And there is currently no real Center anywhere on our roster. We basically employ a team full of Power Forwards. We've already seen AL lose almost a whole year due to injury. (A pectoral tear is common weightlifter injury when guys are literally trying to lift to heavy of a load.)

We're tempting fate by forcing him to handle this responsibility full time and alone.

Plus, again, his greatest team success came with him paired with a legit defensive Center. Let's at least TRY it and see. Instead of just pairing him with an undersized PF and no backup Center every single season.

[Durins Baynes]

Firstly, he matches up fine with those guys. He even did well against Hibbert (though some size wouldn't hurt there). The bottom line is Horford is mostly fine matching up with 5's. Now of course, it would be great if you could get a 5 for him, but is Asik it? I don't think he helps much if at all. What you gain in D you lose on O. Milsap is a good scorer, and that's an important consideration too.

I'm sure Horford would rather guard weaker 4's. And we should care about this because? You want players to play inside if they can. Sure, it has a toll on his body, but he's still young and better he take advantage while he can. You don't want him becoming a softie outside shooter like some bigs try to become. The reality is his biggest impact is probably at the 5 (unless you can add a really good center next to him), so just keep him there for now.

[theatlfan]

One thing I'm not seeing here: Elton Brand is most definitely a C at the current stage in his career. Now, I wouldn't want him getting more than 20 minutes per, but I'm sure we'll be using all of those minutes on the opposing team's #1 C if warranted. Considering that most of the C's listed above are getting somewhere in the 30-35 minute range, Horford will only be defending these guys for about 1 quarter spread out through the game and also have some minutes against the opponent's #2.

Can't see why this would be talked about as much as it is...

[Yungsta404]

Bogut wasn't available, and will be extended (as usual) before next offseason. Splitter was a restricted FA, and isn't an upgrade over Milsap anyhow. Jefferson isn't really a 5, and makes the team worse. If you can get a good 5 for him, you do, but that's not easy. I don't think Asik really makes the team any better.

I disagree Asik gives us elite rebounding, elite rim protection, and intangibles such as toughness and physicality that would make us better. That is something we NEVER had. We have always been a soft team that has always been clowned and at time looked little girls once teams got physical with us.

He is the kind of center that isnt afraid to lay someone on their ass when they try to attack the rim and send a message. That kind of intangible is what can take a team to a new level.

Elite rebounding and interior defense is what makes teams like chicago and the pacers overachieve with less talent and a **** offense.

That defensive anchor (tyson chandler) is what helped a dallas team get rid of the soft label and get them over the hump and led to a championship.

[Durins Baynes]

Asik is a good, tough man defender, but he's no rim protector. He's just not that kind of inside anchor, so you're left asking whether it's worth getting a bigger man defender inside, at the cost of losing a more talented player who can score. I tend to think you're better off with Milsap. Horford doesn't think so I'm sure, but he's got to play where he's best suited, even if he doesn't like getting roughed up in the paint. I mean, that's your job big guy. I like Horford, but I'm not a fan of telling players they don't need to play inside as much because "it will take years off my career". I'd rather you had a bigger impact in the years you play than have you play longer floating around on the perimeter trying to be Dirk Nowitzki.

[BAMABIRD]

Would have been nice to hear Horford publicly lobbying for free agent centers to come to ATL. Don't recall him saying anything, but yet he was on twitter crying about Teague leaving.

[Yungsta404]

Asik is a good, tough man defender, but he's no rim protector. He's just not that kind of inside anchor, so you're left asking whether it's worth getting a bigger man defender inside, at the cost of losing a more talented player who can score. I tend to think you're better off with Milsap. Horford doesn't think so I'm sure, but he's got to play where he's best suited, even if he doesn't like getting roughed up in the paint. I mean, that's your job big guy. I like Horford, but I'm not a fan of telling players they don't need to play inside as much because "it will take years off my career". I'd rather you had a bigger impact in the years you play than have you play longer floating around on the perimeter trying to be Dirk Nowitzki.

LOOL @ saying asik doesnt protect the rim. That tells me you have NEVER watched him play or have no idea what it means to be a rim protector.

Please read this article. http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/10/15/ ... on-rockets

[Jamaaliver]

Would have been nice to hear Horford publicly lobbying for free agent centers to come to ATL. Don't recall him saying anything, but yet he was on twitter crying about Teague leaving.

In his defense, he did publicly lobby for Centers during the draft. Problem is we drafted a guy who weighs less than AL and is years from being a consistent contributor.

Can't see why this would be talked about as much as it is...

Largely because AL expressed concern on the issue numerous times in the past and multiple times this year as well.

I'm sure Horford would rather guard weaker 4's. And we should care about this because?

If a man comes to you and says he is physically unable to continue doing the job you're asking him to do, it seems foolish to simply ignore him. There's a reason Drew lobbied for a Center next to AL and a reason D Ferry drafted two Centers this offseason.

[theatlfan]

Can't see why this would be talked about as much as it is...

Largely because AL expressed concern on the issue numerous times in the past and multiple times this year as well.

Again - we got a C. Someone who may be the best guy in the NBA as far as being suited in doing exactly what those here are saying that Horford shouldn't be doing...

[Jamaaliver]

Again - we got a C. Someone who may be the best guy in the NBA as far as being suited in doing exactly what those here are saying that Horford shouldn't be doing...

I'd have to disagree with you there. I traditionally expect my Center to be a defensive anchor and a consistent shotblocker. Offensively, I expect him to be a reliable option in the post as a back to the basket scorer.

Those are probably AL's two biggest weaknesses.

He's a solid post defender, but is not really a shot blocker. I remember back when we had Theo Ratliff and even Mutombo as Centers. Those guys blocked 2 or 3 shots a game, but also redirected a number of shots just by their presence. AL doesn't do this; it's not his game.

Offensively, AL is one of the best jump shooting bigs in recent memory. This is more in line with talents like Dirk, Duncan, Karl Malone, David West. The weakest part of AL's offensive game is easily his post scoring. (Sadly)

[MaceCase]

Asik is a good, tough man defender, but he's no rim protector. He's just not that kind of inside anchor, so you're left asking whether it's worth getting a bigger man defender inside, at the cost of losing a more talented player who can score. I tend to think you're better off with Milsap. Horford doesn't think so I'm sure, but he's got to play where he's best suited, even if he doesn't like getting roughed up in the paint. I mean, that's your job big guy. I like Horford, but I'm not a fan of telling players they don't need to play inside as much because "it will take years off my career". I'd rather you had a bigger impact in the years you play than have you play longer floating around on the perimeter trying to be Dirk Nowitzki.

LOOL @ saying asik doesnt protect the rim. That tells me you have NEVER watched him play or have no idea what it means to be a rim protector.

Please read this article. http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/10/15/ ... on-rockets

Rim protectors generally block shots....which Asik does not do to any particular elite degree, in fact he's no better than Al in that regard. Al demonstrates much of the same perimeter defensive abilities listed in that article yet I would love to find the poster who says that we had an elite defensive duo between him and Josh or simply refer to Al as a rim protector based on it.

[Durins Baynes]

I'm sure all 5's would like it if they didn't have to bang in the post so much. It would prolong all their careers. But if a guy is best inside, that's where you play him. Horford and Milsap is better than Horford and a middling 5 with no O, so they might as well keep him there.

Asik does not block shots or intimidate, he's a man defender- not an anchor. He's great at a man defender, but I don't see the big advantage of Asik v.s Milsap.

[theatlfan]

Again - we got a C. Someone who may be the best guy in the NBA as far as being suited in doing exactly what those here are saying that Horford shouldn't be doing...

I'd have to disagree with you there. I traditionally expect my Center to be a defensive anchor and a consistent shotblocker. Offensively, I expect him to be a reliable option in the post as a back to the basket scorer.

Those are probably AL's two biggest weaknesses.

He's a solid post defender, but is not really a shot blocker. I remember back when we had Theo Ratliff and even Mutombo as Centers. Those guys blocked 2 or 3 shots a game, but also redirected a number of shots just by their presence. AL doesn't do this; it's not his game.

Offensively, AL is one of the best jump shooting bigs in recent memory. This is more in line with talents like Dirk, Duncan, Karl Malone, David West. The weakest part of AL's offensive game is easily his post scoring. (Sadly)

You might want to reread my posts...

Elton Brand ranked 34th in blocks/36 last year (remove guys with <1000 minutes, then he's in the top 20) and was the league leader in PPP against Post-ups in '11-'12. Brand actually got some under-the-radar push for DPotY in '11-'12 for his all around defensive game as he is also a noted help defender and gets steals in the lane. He's a 270+ lb mass of humanity that can absorb punishment from anyone. Further, he is noted for his intelligence and professionalism. Sure, he isn't the Offensive low post dominator that he was just less than a decade ago, but he's still an efficient jump shooter in the mid-range.

Here's the deal: in 48 minutes, the opponent's #1 C will probably play about 32 minutes. For 20-24 of those minutes, I expect Brand to be defending him. Yes, that leaves 8-12 minutes that someone (in all likelihood, Horford) will have to cover him, but it's not like we have Horford will have to take the pounding from Pekovic for 48 minutes. Probably somewhere around 10.

Is Brand the long term answer? No, I'd guess Brand wouldn't even think so. Will Brand save any excessive wear and tear on Horford's body this season? There's no doubt in my mind here.

[MaceCase]

The real issue here is that Al is upset that he still won't get to call himself a full-time or starting PF. The team has had pretty good Center depth behind him before and the starting lineup has often been changed to accommodate him against bigger and offensively competent Centers over the last 3 years. Ferry continues that trend by drafting 2 Centers for the future while signing another 2 and claiming one off waivers for the present yet Al is still complaining.

Were this any other player you would have already seen the "Diva" title thrown around. His complaints are more a personal preference rather than a team goal. Additionally, all of Al's success has come from playing primarily next to a player both smaller and possessing lesser length than him, yup, even in college.

[BAMABIRD]

Would have been nice to hear Horford publicly lobbying for free agent centers to come to ATL. Don't recall him saying anything, but yet he was on twitter crying about Teague leaving.

In his defense, he did publicly lobby for Centers during the draft. Problem is we drafted a guy who weighs less than AL and is years from being a consistent contributor.

Which was fine, but he should have been lobbying to established NBA players to come play with him. It's one thing to lobby to the front office for help but to be able to get a guy to come play with you is a tougher sell.

[MaceCase]

Would have been nice to hear Horford publicly lobbying for free agent centers to come to ATL. Don't recall him saying anything, but yet he was on twitter crying about Teague leaving.

In his defense, he did publicly lobby for Centers during the draft. Problem is we drafted a guy who weighs less than AL and is years from being a consistent contributor.

Which was fine, but he should have been lobbying to established NBA players to come play with him. It's one thing to lobby to the front office for help but to be able to get a guy to come play with you is a tougher sell.

I agree, Chandler Parsons and James Harden were pretty vocal about their pursuit of Dwight talking about how' they'd call and text him everyday. We can't place blame solely on the front office being unable to attract star players when these days you have it that players themselves are doing most of the recruiting seeing as they are free of tampering charges.

Al has been in All Star lockerrooms, he was a big part of the players' union, he's always on all of sponsored international trips, he most definitely should be in tight with all of the top tier players in this league outside of just those who he roomed with in college.

I'm not saying that it's foolproof or that there was actually a player that we should have acquired but he's not doing the team any favors when he's the lone remaining star and instead of acting as the spearhead for attracting players to actually come help him he's publicly attacking an already much maligned front office.

[Jamaaliver]

Which was fine, but he should have been lobbying to established NBA players to come play with him. It's one thing to lobby to the front office for help but to be able to get a guy to come play with you is a tougher sell.

Fair point. I found it revealing that Houston's recruiting party included Harden and Chandler plus the Head Coach, GM and legendary Houston Centers of the past.

Our recruiting party included Bud and Ferry, two guys Howard probably never heard of or saw play...

I'm sure all 5's would like it if they didn't have to bang in the post so much. It would prolong all their careers. But if a guy is best inside, that's where you play him.

I don't know. I've heard Drummond and Hibbert say how much they love banging in the post. Largely because they're bigger than 99% of the guys guarding them. Rodman, Ben Wallace, Shaq are other guys who loved getting dirty and flexing their muscle in close to the basket.

Also, I'm not sure I'd say AL is best inside. I mean, clearly he's a solid post defender, but offensively he operates best in the midragnge area, allowing him to use that beautiful jumpshot or pass to wing players cutting to the basket.

[Jamaaliver]

And yet another reason why AL needs to be preserved:

Al Horford did not accompany the Atlanta Hawks for their road game in Dallas and will miss the preseason finale due to a lingering hamstring problem.

Seriously, AL is always nursing some lingering injury. And as Roddy White will tell you, hamstring injuries tend to linger...

[Jamaaliver]

And Lucas Nogueira is proving to be even MORE injury prone.

http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2013/10/23/4946898/lucas-nogueira-injury-hamstring-estudiantes-atlanta-hawks

[Durins Baynes]

Even the biggest of big men start to complain as their careers go on. For years, even on the Lakers, Shaq moaned about not having more help inside to rebound for him, and take the pressure off. He wanted a Ho Grant like player to do his dirty work on the boards and let him do less banging (so basically he wanted a poor mans Horford to do a lot of his work on the glass for him). If you can get a guy like that to pair him with, you do it. But you don't make your team worse in order to take a guy away from his strength. Shaq needed to play inside more and stop complaining (especially on D and on the boards- you know, after someone takes a shot), and Horford basically is in the same position. If you can get a guy who lets him play the 4 without getting worse, then good, but Asik isn't really an improvement over Milsap talent wise. It's better to wait for the right deal, than to make a move just to get a worse starter who happens to be a 5.