Can Al Horford become Karl Malone?

[killbuckner]

I just have no idea what you guys are watching where you think that Horford has shown the ability to attack a weak defender 1 on 1 and exploit it. He just isn't that kind of offensive player. He is a defense/rebounding forward who can score in transition but doesn't create his own shot. And there is nothing wrong with that.

[tontoz]

Horford shot better (.499% to .496) and rebounded better (9.7 to 8.8) than Malone in a comparison of their rookie seasons.

The biggest difference in the 2 is that Malone had John Stockton and you REALLY cannot underestimate the value of that.

I don't understand the level of hatred for Horford. All the guy does is work like a dog. He doesn't play with an ego; he doesn't whine; all he does is work. Al Horford with a jump shot and a PG would be dangerous and his critics need to acknowledge that.

You want excuses? Try this 'un: he played center in HS; he played center in college and he played center last season for us in the pros. He's only playing PF for us because of Smoove's injury. He has almost zero PF experience.

LOL @ shooting .3% better.

Stating a fact isn't hating. The fact is that Horford's scoring is subpar so far.

Marvin has been playing PF a lot since Smith went out. What position do you think Horford was playing last game?

If you think the biggest difference between Malone and Horford is stockon all i can do is laugh. Malone was scoring on 15-20 foot jumpers that Stockton had nothing to do with. Stockon didn't give Malone the strength to overpower people like he did.

Horford hasn't scored at the 5 or the 4. A scorer will score regardless of where he plays. Playing center or pf didn't make much difference to Amare or Bosh, both of whom scored twice as much as Horford at both positions.

[LL Cool Scott]

Jamaaliver - remember when you used to make the exact same arguments about Shelden Williams? How'd that turn out?

I think Horford is a great young talent, and he should be given the ball a little more often. And you're right that he'll flourish as a 4 once we get a real 5 on this roster. However, he is not even in the same GALAXY as Karl Malone. And he never will be. He'll be an all-star eventually, but he's a lot closer to a Buck Williams type of player than a Karl Malone type of player. He needs a LOT of work on his back to the basket game.

[Jamaaliver]

lol Yeah I do remember the Shelden argument I used to wage.

And I maintain that as I do now, if Horford was made the focal point on offense.......he'd KILL.

[Rip2137]

People don't pay attention to how Karl Malone scored. He had a deadly almost never miss midrange shot and they ran the pick and roll with him. Oh, and he played with one of the greatest pure point guards of all time who basically always put the ball right where it needs to be.

One on one, or back to the basket, Malone wasn't THAT great. He had a tough to guard fade away, but besides that he was a product of a system and his skill set fit it perfectly.

That said, Horford doesn't have the natural stroke of Malone, doesn't finish as well, and there ain't a stockton out there for him to play with. no, he can't become a Karl Malone. Dirk Nowinski had a better chance at being a Karl Malone...yeah...Dirk...

And another thing...this whole "Horford will be better when we get a real 5". Would anyone please suggest how that would actually work? I mean, if we get a 5 that isn't that great offensively then the other team will put their best and biggest defensive big on Horford just like they do now. If the 5 can score well with his back to the basket, why the hell would we go to al? Why not go to the legit 5 in the post?

Al horford being the PF has no bearing on how the other team plays D on him.

[killbuckner]

Rip- How on earth do you think that Malone got to the line so much if he wasn't any good one on one or with his back to the basket? From shooting midrange jumpshots? Malone would attack defenses. Horford just isn't that kind of player.

[parson]

I told y'all that Marvelous wasn't a bust and would soon be a good player (and when he gets his man body - it 's still coming, by the way - he'll be a star) and now I'm telling y'all that Al Horford is going to be a star, as well.

I know it's condescending to speak this way, but y'all don't seem to be able to look at a kid and see his talent -- all y'all do is look at his #s and project the future from them. If we're talking about a 30-year old, I'd see the logic, but we're talking about KIDS here.

You look at their gifts, their work habits, their attitudes and their intelligence. Then you look for any physical or emotional handicaps that might hinder their growth.

I know I'm lecturing but, for goodness sake, y'all are condemning a kid who has been lauded by veterans (who know what they're talking about) all over the NBA. Betting on Al Horford is safe money.

[Harry10]

wow you guys are really taking this out of hand. i just put this up to lift everybody's spirits after the last 3 games.

1. first of all, alot of you are confusing young Karl Malone to prime Karl Malone. you guys need to be more reasonable and just consider young Karl Malone.

2. Malone got 12, 17, and 20 field goal attempts in his first three years

3. i really like the Malone reference because both Al and Karl look like they are built the same way, and their strenght and athletism seem to be similar (Horford can't shoot 3s like Barkley) but i really just bring up this reference as to say, can Al easily average 20/10 if given 20 attempts. i was thinking about saying "Can Al become Otis Thorpe"? but Otis never got any attempts either.

4. i think the Center argument is pointless, because Malone generally got the other team's best post defender.

regardless of what side you are one, we all can agree that if Horford got more than 8 attempts, like he does now, his numbers would be a whole lot better, and would have a better chance at getting 20/10

[tontoz]

Harry you have really lost it. Horford isn't even remotely as strong or talented as Malone. I have seen Malone up close in his prime and he was built like a truck. Do you really think Malone would struggle to score against NJ's backups?

The reason Malone took a lot of shots is because he was a very good scorer, hence 37,000 career points. Horford isn't much of a scorer so he doesn't get as many shots. Marvin isn't going to be a star and from the looks of it Horford won't either.

Just look at what rookies Mayo, Rose and Beasley are doing so far. It didn't take them long to start putting up big numbers.

[killbuckner]

You guys are missing how hard it would be for Horford to put up 20 shots in a game when he has trouble creating his own shot. Horford just doesn't have those skills.

[Harry10]

Harry you have really lost it. Horford isn't even remotely as strong or talented as Malone. I have seen Malone up close in his prime and he was built like a truck. Do you really think Malone would struggle to score against NJ's backups?

The reason Malone took a lot of shots is because he was a very good scorer, hence 37,000 career points. Horford isn't much of a scorer so he doesn't get as many shots. Marvin isn't going to be a star and from the looks of it Horford won't either.

Just look at what rookies Mayo, Rose and Beasley are doing so far. It didn't take them long to start putting up big numbers.

oh really?...... aight, i'll break the news to Al

[conleyorbust]

I like Al a lot, but doing something like this is just asking for people to point out his weaknesses.

As most people have pointed out, Malone got covered by the guy that the opposing coaches felt would cover him best. He got covered by Hakeem, Robinson, Buck Williams, and Oakley and had his way with all of them. The reason he was a tough cover was because he could face up or score in transition against the big nasties but he was the strongest player in the leage (outside of Shaq) and could just abuse PFs down low.

Even when Malone was a fairly unskilled rook, he was just more aggressive than Al. He was getting to the line 5 times a game, Stock's rookie year by the way. Malone, peice of crap as a human, was unbelievable at getting to the line his entire career because he really wanted to score. Al doesn't have the touch, shot, or feel for offense that Malone had and its not a knock on Horford just as saying that Durant doesn't have anywhere near the offense game that Larry Bird had isn't an insult to Durant, just statement of fact.

Al scored 2 points with his back to the basket in Chi game too, and they were off free throws when he tried to post up Aaron Gray. He had trouble against Thomas and Noc in the low post. He just doesn't look comfortable backing guys down. By comparison, he looks GREAT when he decides to face up from the high post, take two dribbles and then finish. He does a decent job of drawing contact that way too - he just doesn't seem to want to do it.

... and again, I like Al as a player, but lets not build him up into something he's not. Lets not imagine some (Please Use More Appropriate Word) scenario where, if Al had an all-star center to draw double teams, he'd be able to flourish and prove that he has the talent to be a top 3 PF ever... or whatever the claim is.

[tontoz]

Al scored 2 points with his back to the basket in Chi game too, and they were off free throws when he tried to post up Aaron Gray. He had trouble against Thomas and Noc in the low post. He just doesn't look comfortable backing guys down. By comparison, he looks GREAT when he decides to face up from the high post, take two dribbles and then finish. He does a decent job of drawing contact that way too - he just doesn't seem to want to do it.

That is what i have been saying all along. But some people think i am hating on him if i say he isn't going to be a back to the basket player. He just isn't strong enough and tall enough to be successful trying to back guys down at the 4 or the 5. If he is going to score it is going to be facing up.

It is much easier to get Al the ball 15-18 feet away from the basket than it is to get him the ball in the low post. Being further out gives him more room to operate, making it easier to beat the defender off the dribble which Al has shown the ability to do when he actually tries it. Plus he can get an open 15 footer whenever he wants.

[JoshB914]

If Al Horford was even remotely close to being a 20 PPG guy, we wouldn't have just lost back-to-back games to the New Jersey Nets.

I see him as a fine role player who will hold great value because of his hustle, defense, and leadership ability. But 20/10? He's never shown me the kind of offensive ability to get those kind of points every night.

[conleyorbust]

That is what i have been saying all along. But some people think i am hating on him if i say he isn't going to be a back to the basket player. He just isn't strong enough and tall enough to be successful trying to back guys down at the 4 or the 5. If he is going to score it is going to be facing up.

Al's post moves are similar to Shelden's, better to that, but similar. They are predicated on being able to simply overpower the competition. The problem is though, you can't over-power competition in the NBA unless you are just an unbelievable physical specimen like Dwight or Shaq. Not even Yao consistently overpowers poeple as he usually uses a turn-around J from around 8 feet out. Al tries to play like those guys on the low block but he doesn't back his way down far enough and ends up just throwing something at the front of the hoop.

There are guys who are smaller, weaker, whatever than him that have post games. Jefferson is similar-sized, Craig Smith is smaller, Randolph is smaller and has a 2 inch vert, etc., those guys score against centers in the post but they have offensive games built on finesse - Al doesn't and he either needs to learn a few new post moves and become more fluid with them, or spend less time down there.

[markdeez33]

No, but he can play the role of Tito Horford's son

[Rip2137]

Rip- How on earth do you think that Malone got to the line so much if he wasn't any good one on one or with his back to the basket? From shooting midrange jumpshots? Malone would attack defenses. Horford just isn't that kind of player.

The Jazz ran the stockton malone pick and roll like 30+ times a game. He was a pick and roll/pick and pop player. Most of those points were his midrange jumper. then when people would step out, he would go to the rim HARD and get alot of fouls there.

The jazz offense was never give the ball to Malone and let him work. As a matter of fact, when they did go to that, Malone was incredibly turnover prone because he got tunnel vision on the basket and couldn't handle the double well.

I am not saynig malone wasn't a great player or anything, but he had the perfect storm of the perfect offense, getting 20-25 chances a game to score, and the greatest pure point guard ever.

Horford isnt going to be Malone, because he doesn't have that jumper as deadly to scare defenders, he doesnt have a great point guard, and he doesn't/shouldn't get that many opportunities in the game. Yes, malone went to the rim hard, but he went that way because he was ROLLING to the basket. Not becaues he had anything resembling good ball handling skills or one on one basketball prowless.

[lethalweapon3]

At the risk of overextending this discussion, I think Al Horford's career ceiling is not Karl Malone, but Tim Duncan. Not a higher or lower ceiling necessarily... just different house types.

One of Hofo's assets is he looks the part of an eager learner of the game. Al will have plenty of time over his career to bolster his footwork on the block, passing skills, 10-20-foot jumpers and his man defense. Plus he's getting valuable trial-by-fire work by playing major minutes at Center (without, say, an Admiral to rely on... or even a Mark Eaton in the case of the Mailman) early in his career, making him increasingly flexible when applying his skills at the 4-5 spots down the road.

~lw3

[_BBIB_]

Horford does not have the size to be Tim Duncan.

Horford has a lot of potential on offense. It's kind of weird. He dribbles the ball down the court with ease but he's kind of awkward in the post. It's like he thinks too much and is too robotic. Not as bad as Shelden Williams robotic, but still robotic. If he moved quicker in the post I think he could score 15 PPG

[lethalweapon3]

Horford does not have the size to be Tim Duncan.

Horford has a lot of potential on offense. It's kind of weird. He dribbles the ball down the court with ease but he's kind of awkward in the post. It's like he thinks too much and is too robotic. Not as bad as Shelden Williams robotic, but still robotic. If he moved quicker in the post I think he could score 15 PPG

Hofo does give up an inch to TD (two almost, as Duncan's closer to 7'0" than 6'11") and about ten pounds. Even if he doesn't grow in height at this stage of his career, I can see him gaining in girth to the point where he's closer in body type to Not-So-Tiny-Tim than the 265-pound truck driving Mailman. Plus he'll never have elbows as effective as Karl's no matter how much he bulks up! lol

I think when you touched on the cerebral, Mr. Roboto nature of Al's offensive game (accurately delineated from the Frankenstein-style Shelden), that's probably where I see the Duncan-lite in him most. Despite dropping 20-10 nightly with ease, TD used to get critiqued for being too mechanical offensively in his early years... a critique that apparently turns into "fundamentally sound" as long as your style of play results in championship trophies parading down the Riverwalk. The difference with Duncan (circa 1999, season two for him) is he knew exactly what he was gonna do with the rock well before it got into his hands on a play. Having a smart coach like Popovich sure helps with instinctiveness, but that's where Hofo can get to eventually, as he builds up a comfort level with his skills and teammates and takes up a greater share of offensive responsibilities.

As an aside, Al's got a little showboat edge to him (bicep check, anyone?), but nothing quite at the audacious level of the "let me pose like a model with a hand behind my head as I jam" style that Malone displayed in his prime.

~lw3