1/23 Hawks at Suns

[PandaKidd]

To be fair to Al, what I don't know is if this is all CMB dealings. Maybe he's made Horford do this. It's part of his "system". So what I don't know is if Al is camping out doing 3s because that is what he's been told is his job now.

[Jamaaliver]

If this is Horford's game now, then I don't even want to re-sign him this summer. Let someone else make the mistake of giving him max dollars, because that's what it would be: a mistake.

Horford needs to limit his range to the midrange game, which he's so good at, and he also needs to start attacking the basket. Him focusing so much on mastering the 3 has ruined him. It's Josh Smith all over again.

Al wasn't taking 3 3pt attempts a game or more.

BINGO!!!


It was poor strategy to have Horford play AWAY from his strength in the mid-range.

[Jamaaliver]

To be fair to Al, what I don't know is if this is all CMB dealings. Maybe he's made Horford do this. It's part of his "system". So what I don't know is if Al is camping out doing 3s because that is what he's been told is his job now.

I have no doubt it's at Bud's insistence.

He looks like Pero Antic out there.

Every Center we acquire sees a decrease in production once they get here. It's clearly a scheme issue.

[PandaKidd]

I'm firmly convinced that if this is what CMB wants, he needs to upgrade SG and PUNT on the center. If he's going to diminish the value of someone like Al and try and convert him into a player he's not , I'd much rather just have a Tyson Chandler type guy who defends and rebounds. Let Millsap be your guy.

Upgrade the wing.

Splitter was a non factor tonight. Even with al at the 4, they just were not effective

[PandaKidd]

Also Al NEVER pick and ROLLS. Watch him, he always pick and pops.

He also had the ball several times IN the paint an he would kick it out to another shooter. He shot one bad ugly left handed hook shot that he missed everything.

[ATL Boy]

To be fair to Al, what I don't know is if this is all CMB dealings. Maybe he's made Horford do this. It's part of his "system". So what I don't know is if Al is camping out doing 3s because that is what he's been told is his job now.

I have no doubt it's at Bud's insistence.

He looks like Pero Antic out there.

Every Center we acquire sees a decrease in production once they get here. It's clearly a scheme issue.

To both:

If this is what Bud really wants and is too stubborn to change his philosophy even as an exception for an all star, then are we not better off just trying to find a 3 point shooting big for cheap, rather than pay Al $26 mil to become a glorified Andrea Bargnani?

[PandaKidd]

Go read Vivlamores twitter right now, reading KK words, pretty interesting.

I sense something is up in the locker room. Maybe I'm reading into it, but hes being pretty candid saying they basically aren't playing with effort and they'll continue to be mediocre if that doesn't change.

Al, in this system, isn't worth 20+ million. This team has seriously regressed because they aren't shooting 45% from 3pt range like they did last year for 45 games

[MaceCase]

Al has been a guy who has averaged close to 70% of his offense off of jumpers dating back to Woody. I think some just had the unsubstantiated hope he'd play better at PF, were gravely disappointed but instead of accepting that Al is who is, decided to throw the blame at Bud.

[PandaKidd]

No one is saying CMB should be fired or anything like that. But when your defenciencies from last season show up much worse this year something has to be done.

Al is taking 3 pt shots at an amazing rate, he never did that last year or any year. So you can quote 70% numbers all you want. 15 footers aren't the same as 25 footers.

Everyone sees it, there is no low post game AT ALL anymore with the Hawks its completely gone. Their personnel isn't good enough to bomb away from 3pt range all game

[Jamaaliver]

No one is saying CMB should be fired or anything like that. But when your defenciencies from last season show up much worse this year something has to be done.

Al is taking 3 pt shots at an amazing rate, he never did that last year or any year. So you can quote 70% numbers all you want. 15 footers aren't the same as 25 footers.

Everyone sees it, there is no low post game AT ALL anymore with the Hawks its completely gone. Their personnel isn't good enough to bomb away from 3pt range all game

Exactly!

That comment above you was a shot at me...and that's fine. But Al has attempted more threes in 3 months than the previous 11 years of high level basketball combined.

That's insane.

That is Josh Smith level stupidity.

Moving the most efficient scorer on this team further away from the basket is dumb. Moving the team's best big man away from the paint is dumb.

But Al at least rebounded much better at the PF spot....but all that jump shooting from deep is counter productive.

[PandaKidd]

Well I'd caution the josh Smith comparisons simply because I believe al was told to shoot 3s, Josh just did it because he wanted to.

But I hear ya. Hopefully Budenholzer can adjust

[MaceCase]

That comment above you was a shot at me.

You're awfully fond of yourself.

It would be one thing if Al was actually taking shots from 15 feet and in but no, he hasn't. He's spent his career taking the majority of his shots from around 20 feet and I don't see much of a difference from spotting up at 20 feet as opposed to 23 feet except, you know, that extra point. That little radius on the court just makes it easier for people to realize his extremely limited skill set but that man has been out there since Obama still had dark hair.

[Jamaaliver]

It would be one thing if Al was actually taking shots from 15 feet and in but no, he hasn't. He's spent his career taking the majority of his shots from around 20 feet...

This is false. Wrong. Fallacy.

Based on shooting stats provided by NBA.com, Horford has attempted most of his shots from 14 feet or closer to the basket every season of his career.

Under Woody for three years, 75% of Horford's FGAs were from 14 feet or in.

Under Drew for three years, roughly 62% of Horford's FGA were from 14 feet or in.

Under Budenholzer for 3 years, roughly 58% of Horford's FGA were from 14 feet or in.

THIS season, Horford is attempting only 51% of his FGAs from 14 feet or in. Far and away the lowest % of his career.

Under Bud, Horford has moved most of his attempts further from the basket each season.

[PandaKidd]

^^^ stats and such doe

[MaceCase]

It would be one thing if Al was actually taking shots from 15 feet and in but no, he hasn't. He's spent his career taking the majority of his shots from around 20 feet...

This is false. Wrong. Fallacy.

Based on shooting stats provided by NBA.com, Horford has attempted most of his shots from 14 feet or closer to the basket every season of his career.

Under Woody for three years, 75% of Horford's FGAs were from 14 feet or in.

Under Drew for three years, roughly 62% of Horford's FGA were from 14 feet or in.

Under Budenholzer for 3 years, roughly 58% of Horford's FGA were from 14 feet or in.

THIS season, Horford is attempting only 51% of his FGAs from 14 feet or in. Far and away the lowest % of his career.

Under Bud, Horford has moved most of his attempts further from the basket each season.

HOLY DISINGENUOUS ARGUMENT, BATMAN!

A jumper =/= a FGA unless dunks and layups are now being considered as jumpers of which Shaq then had the sweetest stroke in league history.

http://www.82games.com/1415/14ATL14.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1314/13ATL15.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1213/12ATL15.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1112/11ATL13.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1011/10ATL13.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/09ATL11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL12.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0708/07ATL12A.HTM


82games does go as far as to consider a "hook shot" as a jumper but I think everyone can agree that no one is attempting a jumper from under 10ft. So, your disingenuous hoorah aside, look at the information you provided.

07/08:
10-14ft: 65
15-19ft: 147


08/09:
10-14ft: 93
15-19ft: 127

09/10:
10-14ft: 107
15-19ft:172

10/11
10-14ft:107
15-19ft:320

11/12
10-14ft:8
15-19ft:26

12/13
10-14ft: 83
15-19ft: 314

Bud's arrival

13/14
10-14ft: 38
15-19ft: 147

14/15
10-14ft: 82
15-19ft: 293

15/16
10-14ft: 39
15-19ft: 128

Would seem that he's shooting more from outside of 15 feet, no?

Want to say that those shots are precisely at 15 feet? You'd still be wrong. Pay attention to percentage of FGA from 16ft < 3
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01.html#shooting::none

He already hit 37% of his FGAs from that distance back in 10-11, more than twice the amount of any other mid-range amount.


Don't believe that? Well you can mouse over every jumper attempt outside the paint he's taken for his whole career, it'll give you the actual distance of each but you can notice a characteristic banding and grouping forming outside of 16ft starting from 08-09

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01/shooting/2008/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01/shooting/2009/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01/shooting/2010/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01/shooting/2011/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01/shooting/2012/

Banding get's particularly pronounced here, a full season before Bud's arrival.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01/shooting/2013/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01/shooting/2014/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01/shooting/2015/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01/shooting/2016/

So congrats, you played yourself.

[Jamaaliver]

It would be one thing if Al was actually taking shots from 15 feet and in but no, he hasn't. He's spent his career taking the majority of his shots from around 20 feet

I pulled my research based on the criteria you gave me. They are based on the official stats provided and maintained by the NBA.

And it brought up an interesting point.

For his career, AL has attempted 65% of his Field Goals from 14 feet or closer. Under Woody it was much higher.

Under Bud, he is attempting only 51% of his Field Goals from that same distance THIS SEASON. Barely half. This echoes the concerns many here have expressed about Horford in Bud's scheme; Budenholzer is clearly moving Horford further away from the hoop. Unsurprisingly, Horford's FG% is currently one of the lowest of his career.

RIP mentioned last week, he's noticed opposing 5s don't even bother to follow AL to the perimeter. Instead choosing to hand him off to a wing defender, or, in some cases, leave him open altogether.

Most of the time AL attempts a three...it results in a missed FGA and a long rebound.

Based on everything we've seen, it's not unreasonable to question the efficacy of Bud's use of AL.

A jumper =/= a FGA unless dunks and layups are now being considered as jumpers of which Shaq then had the sweetest stroke in league history.

I don't know what this means. Who said anything about a jumper?

You brought up a really good point, but your premise was based on misinformation.

[PandaKidd]

I don't think it's that hard a concept to grasp....

Al is shooting more shots from further out.....than ever before....

Al doesn't post up anymore.

We still suffer rebounding problems and we aren't talented enough to bomb away from 3 .

Like, pulling stats and crap is cool an all. But just watch the games. Stats can be used to prove anyone side of an argument. WATCH THE GAMES.

If mase thinks this is the same Horford as the last 2-3 years and there's nothing to see here. Then we'll arguments over.

[PandaKidd]

Splitter been a bust?

[Jamaaliver]

Splitter been a bust?

From a production standpoint, yes. But the net effect he has on the team is a positive one. I do believe he can do more, and it's his disappointing numbers, combined with AL's decline and Pero Antic's horrid play which lead me to believe it's a flaw in the scheme.

I might actually owe Pero an apology.

Stats can be used to prove anyone side of an argument

Being honest...in this particular debate it's not even close. Nearly two-thirds of ALs career shot attempts have come from within 14 feet. But this year he's attempted only 51% of his shots within 14 feet.

These numbers aren't even debatable.

Why would Bud do that?

Horford's approaching career lows in FG%. He rarely gets to the FT Line. Almost 70% of Al's 3-pt attempts result in a missed shot. How is that good for the offense?

[PandaKidd]

Because he's trying to value 3pt shooting. The problem is they don't have the talent to do that.