Hawks can't acquire 2 max players...

[azuresou1]

JJ was moved to the Nets because they were desperate for talent. We trade Josh to them, and then suddenly they're not so desperate now, are they?

Trade Josh to the Nets, and there's almost a ZERO percent chance NJ takes on Joe at all. Why would they?

Using our front office and its history of bad moves is generally not a good indicator of what teams around the league are willing to do.

[Jamaaliver]

I agree. Josh to NJ eliminates the Nets taking Joe Johnson.

But I do believe there would be other opportunities to move JJ.

He's a 6-time All Star, consummate professional and consistent, dependable scorer.

There are always teams 'desperate for talent' who would kill to have a JJ on their roster.

[azuresou1]

Like who? The only teams desperate for talent would be those who are borderline championship teams, or teams that want to retain their star player. Deron was the only one who was realistically was staying. At BEST we would have offloaded JJ for slightly worse contracts.

[Jamaaliver]

Just think of the last two teams to acquhire JJ.

teams that were completely dreadful on the court and in the box office, but needed to improve to at least become relevant.

I suspect Golden State, Charlotte or Sacramento would kill to have an All Star on their team making them good eough to make the playoffs every year.
I also suspect NYK would have at least considered trading Amare for JJ. Amare's contract is not covered by insurance, but is shorter than Joe's.

JJ is overpaid, but he's still a good player.

[MaceCase]

Just think of the last two teams to acquhire JJ.

teams that were completely dreadful on the court and in the box office, but needed to improve to at least become relevant.

I suspect Golden State, Charlotte or Sacramento would kill to have an All Star on their team making them good eough to make the playoffs every year.
I also suspect NYK would have at least considered trading Amare for JJ. Amare's contract is not covered by insurance, but is shorter than Joe's.

JJ is overpaid, but he's still a good player.

You presented two scenarios

1) where young rebuilding teams would deem it fit burning their capspace and assets on a 31 year old on a max contract with the intention that it could possibly be the difference in them making the playoffs. You continuously omit the existence of age and that it happens to have this odd effect on athletes in that it forces decline but how big would this playoff window be for said rebuilding team? Is the investment truly worth it for a theoretical at best 1-2 year playoff window? Are teams that have been under such long-term rebuilding truly interested in such short-term success? These only seem like rhetorical questions though assuming normal logical sense...

2) a situation where Joe is traded for a worse contract. Yes it is a year shorter but there is a very good reason for it being uninsured.......it's because Amar'e's knees are on the precipice of turning into chalk dust.


These are truly likely and more desirable outcomes than the current situation that the team is in.


The impotence of this debate should be clarified though because you've stated that:

1) Joe single-handedly influences a team's playoffs chances.
2) Josh Smith is merely an above-average player.
3) A 22 year old Rookie from a lower tier basketball conference is on par with a player that has already achieved a 6th man of the year award, an Olympic gold medal and NBA Finals appearance by the same age.

[Jamaaliver]

That's all you took from our conversation? This makes me sad.

[MaceCase]

If your premises are faulty then your conclusions are too.

[Jamaaliver]

I suspect that if I said the sky was blue, you'd calll me a liar and insist it was brown.

[MaceCase]

LOL.... As if anything you've stated in your arguments is based on fact rather than your own personal appraisal of reality.

Lets see, which of these premises are equivalent to "the sky is blue."

1) Joe single-handedly influences a team's playoffs chances.
2) Josh Smith is merely an above-average player.
3) A 22 year old Rookie from a lower tier basketball conference is on par with a player that has already achieved a 6th man of the year award, an Olympic gold medal and NBA Finals appearance by the same age.

[Jamaaliver]

[Jamaaliver]

You presented two scenarios

2) a situation where Joe is traded for a worse contract. Yes it is a year shorter but there is a very good reason for it being uninsured.......it's because Amar'e's knees are on the precipice of turning into chalk dust

but...

Amar'e is a faceup guy but he is a consistent post scorer in that he consistently score points from the post....

Bad contract for an injury prone guy that fell off tremendously but his deal ends a year earlier and he'd at least give the team flair and leadership more that Mumbles Johnson ever has.

On-the-court-wise he'd make sense with Josh leaving and Horf is the type of bigman that he can succeed with because he can space the floor and not clog the paint for his pick and roll action.

[Jamaaliver]

JJ, Horford, Teague, a top 10 pick and some cap space suddenly allows us the flexibility to remake our team.

This is where your plan is entirely half assed. There simply is no capspace with that group.

Everything you wrote here is wrong:

per CNNSI.COM:


Atlanta Hawks: The Hawks are finally set to have major cap room in the summer of 2013, though they get it only because Smith’s contract expires after next season. His potential cap hold would soak up nearly all of Atlanta’s theoretical cap space, and they would also have some money reserved for Jeff Teague, a restricted free agent after next season. Still, the Hawks get a little more flexible at that point than they are now.


http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2012/03/15/dwight-howard-ripple-effect-in-the-nba/

[MaceCase]

Ah yes, the post from the past that absolutely reconfirms the current post of moving a **** contract for another **** contract. Good find!

Let's try to look way back to Aug. 25th 2012 though

What really burns is that we could have traded Josh Smith this past season to NJ for the draft rights to Damion Lillard.

THAT kid is a star in the making. (And the likely ROY.)

And for the record, I view Josh Smith as a slightly above average player.

You lose at the internet.

[MaceCase]

JJ, Horford, Teague, a top 10 pick and some cap space suddenly allows us the flexibility to remake our team.

This is where your plan is entirely half assed. There simply is no capspace with that group.

Everything you wrote here is wrong:

per CNNSI.COM:


Atlanta Hawks: The Hawks are finally set to have major cap room in the summer of 2013, though they get it only because Smith’s contract expires after next season. His potential cap hold would soak up nearly all of Atlanta’s theoretical cap space, and they would also have some money reserved for Jeff Teague, a restricted free agent after next season. Still, the Hawks get a little more flexible at that point than they are now.


http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2012/03/15/dwight-howard-ripple-effect-in-the-nba/

Oh it is is it?
http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages ... /hawks.jsp

Take notice that the Hawks have 40 million invested to 3 players alone. So the Hawks have 18 million to sign 10 players.......and this is capspace and flexibility to you? Yikes.

[Jamaaliver]

Josh Smith is a superstar? All Star? Franchise player?

He's never avg 20 ppg for a season.

He's never avg a double-double for a season.

He's never been an all-star.

He's never been All-NBA.

The US Olympic team invited Tyson Chandler and Anthony Davis over him.

He is a slightly above average player.

[Jamaaliver]

If Josh Smith was our top player, he also was our top trade asset.

And it's your belief that getting a pick that would of been between 6-11 (because Josh very easily could of gotten 4-5 extra wins out of 22 win New Jersey), Memet Okur, Shawne Williams and zero cap relief for a contract that was not even an issue in the first place would of been a worthy return for him.....Man, I've been called a hater for suggesting less egregious deals than that.

12 months ago we tried to trade Josh Smith to Minnesota for the #2 pick in a weak draft so we could acquire Enes Kanter.

5 months ago management was considering trading Marvin and Josh together for the expiring contract of Antawn Jamison.

Trading Josh to NJ for a lotto pick, and the expiring contract of Kris Humphries is...worse?

[Jamaaliver]

I asked this already but I guess I'll do it again, would it have made any amount of sense to ship off JJ or SMoove in the midst of a playoff run...The only "proactive" GM that would have done that to his 5th seeded team 45 games into the season would have been one in possession of the same crystal ball that you seem to have.

but...

by MaceCase on Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:18 pm

He's just piggy backing off a well known fact, that Josh is available for the right price. The thing is he's been floated out there for years and the team has offered him up for high value assets and stars and been laughed at

[MaceCase]

This has gotten sad. You are truly desperate now. After each beating are you just going to dig further and further to try and find something....anything.....that still doesn't even support whatever weak plan you are formulating?

FYI, Humphries was a key part of the Dwight proposal(s). Why has your fantasy world now attached him to a trade for Josh as though that was feasible on the Nets part? Okur plus Williams to match salary and the pick that became the 6th is the only real deal that was on the table, period.

Josh and Marvin for Tawn? Oh yea, I heard it was the inclusion of Pape Sy that made the Hawks pull out of that one.

Yea, Josh was offered up for 2nd pick of the 2011 draft........at the beginning of the OFFseason. This was before he was leading the team in points, assists, rebounds, blocks, and second in steals for a team missing one of it best players yet was still in the running for a top 3 seed during the MIDDLE of the season.

So I mention that he's available for the right price.......and he was offered for the 2nd pick in the draft, Carmelo Anthony, Deron Williams and later Pau Gasol and turned down

but.....

after all of that shopping a "proactive" GM would now settle for a pick in the range of 6-12 (if it was conveyed!), Okur and Williams to get a head start on what? cap savings?

but....

Josh has never been an All NBA, he's never actually made it on to a Team USA squad, or an All Star game, or averaged 20 points so you should just settle.

but...

Joe has....and was traded for Jordan Williams, Jordan Farmer, Johan Petro, Deshawn Stevenson and a lotto protected 1st round pick.

Hmm, I guess going by awards doesn't really gauge a player's worth now does it?

But we should go by Summer League to establish that Lillard will be a star.

because that worked out so well for us before

[Jamaaliver]

And it's your belief that getting a pick that would of been between 6-11 (because Josh very easily could of gotten 4-5 extra wins out of 22 win New Jersey), Memet Okur, Shawne Williams and zero cap relief for a contract that was not even an issue in the first place would of been a worthy return for him.....Man, I've been called a hater for suggesting less egregious deals than that.

Would probably prefer Biedrins with Dorell and the 7. Just a bit more cap friendly.

The prize in the deal is the #7 pick.

Not many if any lotto team would be capable of or willing to absorb Josh's deal plus kicker outright without a guarantee he'd resign.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1183475

[MaceCase]

Wow you are truly laughable. These post diggings are so sad I almost feel sorry for you and your attempts to save face.

Yes. After the season was over and before Danny Ferry was hired and pulled a miracle of getting rid of Joe Johnson and Marvin thus improving the Hawks future I didn't mind Josh being moved for a pick that was actually very likely to be the #7th in the draft or not exist at all 2 days later when the lottery actually happened.

Jamaaliver's "plan" OTOH in August is so downright idiotic that he does not realize that the lottery happened on May 30th but in hindsight world the Hawks should have traded Josh on March 15 for a conditional 1st round pick, Shawne Williams and Memo Okur.......

Let's see the scenario pretending that the odds in this alternate future hold up with what actually transpired in reality:

At the end of the season, the Nets won 22 games and after a lost coinflip with Sacramento ended up with the 6th pick. The TrailBlazers won 28 games and were slotted with the 11th pick. The difference of 6 wins and that pick is now tied for 11 (this is greater than 6) . The Difference of 1 win and the pick is now 7th or 8th (both are greater than 6) the difference of 3 wins and the pick is now 9th (greater than 6th again) 4 wins and the pick is now 10th (higher than 6).

But let's look at the inverse. What if the Nets' record stayed the same and they had won the coinflip with Sacramento they'd be sitting at the 5th pick. Okay! Alright! Now we're talking!

But.....

What if they lost 1 more game? Oh ****, if they were slotted at the 4 spot in the lottery like New Orleans was after losing the coinflip with Cleveland.........uhm well the Hawks don't get the pick.

DAMN YOU SUND FOR NOT PROACTIVELY TRADING JOSH IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SEASON AND THEN RIGGING THE LOTTERY RESULTS AFTER!!!!!!