Hawks can't acquire 2 max players...

[MaceCase]

LOL.... As if anything you've stated in your arguments is based on fact rather than your own personal appraisal of reality.

Lets see, which of these premises are equivalent to "the sky is blue."

1) Joe single-handedly influences a team's playoffs chances.
2) Josh Smith is merely an above-average player.
3) A 22 year old Rookie from a lower tier basketball conference is on par with a player that has already achieved a 6th man of the year award, an Olympic gold medal and NBA Finals appearance by the same age.

[Jamaaliver]

[Jamaaliver]

You presented two scenarios

2) a situation where Joe is traded for a worse contract. Yes it is a year shorter but there is a very good reason for it being uninsured.......it's because Amar'e's knees are on the precipice of turning into chalk dust

but...

Amar'e is a faceup guy but he is a consistent post scorer in that he consistently score points from the post....

Bad contract for an injury prone guy that fell off tremendously but his deal ends a year earlier and he'd at least give the team flair and leadership more that Mumbles Johnson ever has.

On-the-court-wise he'd make sense with Josh leaving and Horf is the type of bigman that he can succeed with because he can space the floor and not clog the paint for his pick and roll action.

[Jamaaliver]

JJ, Horford, Teague, a top 10 pick and some cap space suddenly allows us the flexibility to remake our team.

This is where your plan is entirely half assed. There simply is no capspace with that group.

Everything you wrote here is wrong:

per CNNSI.COM:


Atlanta Hawks: The Hawks are finally set to have major cap room in the summer of 2013, though they get it only because Smith’s contract expires after next season. His potential cap hold would soak up nearly all of Atlanta’s theoretical cap space, and they would also have some money reserved for Jeff Teague, a restricted free agent after next season. Still, the Hawks get a little more flexible at that point than they are now.


http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2012/03/15/dwight-howard-ripple-effect-in-the-nba/

[MaceCase]

Ah yes, the post from the past that absolutely reconfirms the current post of moving a **** contract for another **** contract. Good find!

Let's try to look way back to Aug. 25th 2012 though

What really burns is that we could have traded Josh Smith this past season to NJ for the draft rights to Damion Lillard.

THAT kid is a star in the making. (And the likely ROY.)

And for the record, I view Josh Smith as a slightly above average player.

You lose at the internet.

[MaceCase]

JJ, Horford, Teague, a top 10 pick and some cap space suddenly allows us the flexibility to remake our team.

This is where your plan is entirely half assed. There simply is no capspace with that group.

Everything you wrote here is wrong:

per CNNSI.COM:


Atlanta Hawks: The Hawks are finally set to have major cap room in the summer of 2013, though they get it only because Smith’s contract expires after next season. His potential cap hold would soak up nearly all of Atlanta’s theoretical cap space, and they would also have some money reserved for Jeff Teague, a restricted free agent after next season. Still, the Hawks get a little more flexible at that point than they are now.


http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2012/03/15/dwight-howard-ripple-effect-in-the-nba/

Oh it is is it?
http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages ... /hawks.jsp

Take notice that the Hawks have 40 million invested to 3 players alone. So the Hawks have 18 million to sign 10 players.......and this is capspace and flexibility to you? Yikes.

[Jamaaliver]

Josh Smith is a superstar? All Star? Franchise player?

He's never avg 20 ppg for a season.

He's never avg a double-double for a season.

He's never been an all-star.

He's never been All-NBA.

The US Olympic team invited Tyson Chandler and Anthony Davis over him.

He is a slightly above average player.

[Jamaaliver]

If Josh Smith was our top player, he also was our top trade asset.

And it's your belief that getting a pick that would of been between 6-11 (because Josh very easily could of gotten 4-5 extra wins out of 22 win New Jersey), Memet Okur, Shawne Williams and zero cap relief for a contract that was not even an issue in the first place would of been a worthy return for him.....Man, I've been called a hater for suggesting less egregious deals than that.

12 months ago we tried to trade Josh Smith to Minnesota for the #2 pick in a weak draft so we could acquire Enes Kanter.

5 months ago management was considering trading Marvin and Josh together for the expiring contract of Antawn Jamison.

Trading Josh to NJ for a lotto pick, and the expiring contract of Kris Humphries is...worse?

[Jamaaliver]

I asked this already but I guess I'll do it again, would it have made any amount of sense to ship off JJ or SMoove in the midst of a playoff run...The only "proactive" GM that would have done that to his 5th seeded team 45 games into the season would have been one in possession of the same crystal ball that you seem to have.

but...

by MaceCase on Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:18 pm

He's just piggy backing off a well known fact, that Josh is available for the right price. The thing is he's been floated out there for years and the team has offered him up for high value assets and stars and been laughed at

[MaceCase]

This has gotten sad. You are truly desperate now. After each beating are you just going to dig further and further to try and find something....anything.....that still doesn't even support whatever weak plan you are formulating?

FYI, Humphries was a key part of the Dwight proposal(s). Why has your fantasy world now attached him to a trade for Josh as though that was feasible on the Nets part? Okur plus Williams to match salary and the pick that became the 6th is the only real deal that was on the table, period.

Josh and Marvin for Tawn? Oh yea, I heard it was the inclusion of Pape Sy that made the Hawks pull out of that one.

Yea, Josh was offered up for 2nd pick of the 2011 draft........at the beginning of the OFFseason. This was before he was leading the team in points, assists, rebounds, blocks, and second in steals for a team missing one of it best players yet was still in the running for a top 3 seed during the MIDDLE of the season.

So I mention that he's available for the right price.......and he was offered for the 2nd pick in the draft, Carmelo Anthony, Deron Williams and later Pau Gasol and turned down

but.....

after all of that shopping a "proactive" GM would now settle for a pick in the range of 6-12 (if it was conveyed!), Okur and Williams to get a head start on what? cap savings?

but....

Josh has never been an All NBA, he's never actually made it on to a Team USA squad, or an All Star game, or averaged 20 points so you should just settle.

but...

Joe has....and was traded for Jordan Williams, Jordan Farmer, Johan Petro, Deshawn Stevenson and a lotto protected 1st round pick.

Hmm, I guess going by awards doesn't really gauge a player's worth now does it?

But we should go by Summer League to establish that Lillard will be a star.

because that worked out so well for us before

[Jamaaliver]

And it's your belief that getting a pick that would of been between 6-11 (because Josh very easily could of gotten 4-5 extra wins out of 22 win New Jersey), Memet Okur, Shawne Williams and zero cap relief for a contract that was not even an issue in the first place would of been a worthy return for him.....Man, I've been called a hater for suggesting less egregious deals than that.

Would probably prefer Biedrins with Dorell and the 7. Just a bit more cap friendly.

The prize in the deal is the #7 pick.

Not many if any lotto team would be capable of or willing to absorb Josh's deal plus kicker outright without a guarantee he'd resign.

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1183475

[MaceCase]

Wow you are truly laughable. These post diggings are so sad I almost feel sorry for you and your attempts to save face.

Yes. After the season was over and before Danny Ferry was hired and pulled a miracle of getting rid of Joe Johnson and Marvin thus improving the Hawks future I didn't mind Josh being moved for a pick that was actually very likely to be the #7th in the draft or not exist at all 2 days later when the lottery actually happened.

Jamaaliver's "plan" OTOH in August is so downright idiotic that he does not realize that the lottery happened on May 30th but in hindsight world the Hawks should have traded Josh on March 15 for a conditional 1st round pick, Shawne Williams and Memo Okur.......

Let's see the scenario pretending that the odds in this alternate future hold up with what actually transpired in reality:

At the end of the season, the Nets won 22 games and after a lost coinflip with Sacramento ended up with the 6th pick. The TrailBlazers won 28 games and were slotted with the 11th pick. The difference of 6 wins and that pick is now tied for 11 (this is greater than 6) . The Difference of 1 win and the pick is now 7th or 8th (both are greater than 6) the difference of 3 wins and the pick is now 9th (greater than 6th again) 4 wins and the pick is now 10th (higher than 6).

But let's look at the inverse. What if the Nets' record stayed the same and they had won the coinflip with Sacramento they'd be sitting at the 5th pick. Okay! Alright! Now we're talking!

But.....

What if they lost 1 more game? Oh ****, if they were slotted at the 4 spot in the lottery like New Orleans was after losing the coinflip with Cleveland.........uhm well the Hawks don't get the pick.

DAMN YOU SUND FOR NOT PROACTIVELY TRADING JOSH IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SEASON AND THEN RIGGING THE LOTTERY RESULTS AFTER!!!!!!

[Hood President]

MaceCase is cookin!

It's clear that Jamaaliver doesn't like Josh at all and just wants him traded in any means possible.

[Jamaaliver]

MaceCase is cookin!

It's clear that Jamaaliver doesn't like Josh at all and just wants him traded in any means possible.

Mace Case had the same concerns as me after Josh's putrid showing in the playoffs. My doubts are very well documented.

What I saw mostly is that Josh is extremely ineffective on both ends when he doesn't have his athleticism to rely on. That has to be a worry if a long term deal is considered because he just isn't fundamental enough to compensate

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1180008

[MaceCase]

Oh look, he crawled out of his cave after spending the week licking his wounds.

Now let's see that whole quote again.

What I saw mostly is that Josh is extremely ineffective on both ends when he doesn't have his athleticism to rely on. That has to be a worry if a long term deal is considered because he just isn't fundamental enough to compensate. I will say that he sort of clicked again in the 4th though and managed to push his ratio of bad to good plays in the positive for the most part although those jumpers could have easily been misses too.

Now let's review Jamaaliver's "plan" again as it seems to have undergone it's 6th revision (oh? in your mad dash to save face you lost track of your context? I'm shocked I tell you, shocked!):

A "proactive" GM should have traded Josh on March 15th for a conditional 1st round pick because they not only saw the future lotto results but also that he would suffer a knee injury on May 1st that would limit his effectiveness through stretches of the playoffs....thus justifying moving him for a bag of chips, I guess?

Absolutely hilarious that this same "proactive" GM would not have used his timemachine to see a perfectly healthy Joe Johnson, after a season that saw him take on a lesser offensive load, still be the worst player in that same playoff series.

I'll give you another week to dig up a post of me criticizing Josh as though it has anything to do with your irrational hate and dumbass trade idea.

[Jamaaliver]

It's easy to forget, but at the trade deadine the team was actively shopping Josh Smith.

Again, he requested a trade. This wasn't the first time.

The team was reportedly (based on multiple reports) considering trading Josh Smith and Marvin Williams for the expiring contract of Antawn Jamison. The Hawks were considering tanking the season in favor cap space.

Trading Josh Smith for a lottery pick was a way to clear his $12 million and get better value than a 36 year old has been (Jamison).

Josh Smith ain't bringing back an all-star. Let's at least get a top young player AND cap relief.
You even stated as much a full week before the trade deadline.

by MaceCase on Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:18 pm

He's just piggy backing off a well known fact, that Josh is available for the right price. The thing is he's been floated out there for years and the team has offered him up for high value assets and stars and been laughed at.

[MaceCase]

Oh boy, the asinine "capspace" argument again. Because a few seconds of reading a few pages back won't make it clear to you that that's an idiotic fallacy that you continuously keep spouting?

Yea, they shopped him, weren't receiving any offers worth their while (which is precisely what your deal is), decided to hold onto him instead and now he wants to stay. Did you miss that part? I'll repeat it, they didn't receive an offer worth their while which is precisely what your deal is.



Here are a few facts you need to reconcile:

The team only half-assedly shopped Josh and Marvin for capspace because, ding ding ding, they were resigned to the fact that short of the amnesty there was no feasible way to move Joe........until a brand new GM came along and the Nets were literally looking at bankruptcy without making a desperation move.

Josh is worth more to the team than miniscule capspace and a conditional pick......He only was the top dog on the 4th best record in the east after all.....

He is worth less to lotto teams because they have zero hope of resigning him past his expiring deal

and no he's not worth superstars such as Deron, Dwight or Carmelo.

Where does that leave your trade idea? Still a poorly thought out and pathetic plan. Next?

[Jamaaliver]

The thing is...we didn't get anything in return for our 6-time All Star and leading scorer.

If we'd traded Josh for a lottery pick, we get a young talented player and we get cap space.

Kirk's $8million + Josh's $12million gone would have shaven $20million of our salary and given us a lotto pick to keep or trade.

If you'd rather keep Josh, fair enough. But trading him for cap space and a lottery pick is at least a feasible plan as well...

[Jamaaliver]

Especially...because Josh requested to go.

Brooklyn was always going to have a chance to re-sign him. They have NYC, a new arena, Jay-Z and a billionaire owner.

They traded the house for a year and a half of Deron. They traded a lottery pick for 10 weeks of Gerald Wallace.

They just needed marquee names and productive players.

And just because you disagree doesn't require the amount of ridicule and vitriol you keep spewing my way.

Seriously.

[MaceCase]

The thing is...we didn't get anything in return for our 6-time All Star and leading scorer.

If we'd traded Josh for a lottery pick, we get a young talented player and we get cap space.

Kirk's $8million + Josh's $12million gone would have shaven $20million of our salary and given us a lotto pick to keep or trade.

If you'd rather keep Josh, fair enough. But trading him for cap space and a lottery pick is at least a feasible plan as well...

*Sigh* I guess I'll have to take you through this step by step for you to stop repeating this cap space nonsense.

Let's pretend that your trade went through the exact way it actually went through.

The Hawks are at 60 million after Hinrich expires. Now subtract Josh's 13 million from there. Oh look, it's that link again that you keep ignoring

60 - 13= 47 million to 5 players.

Now add the 2.6 million scale salary of the 6th pick.

That's 49.6 million in salary to 6 players.

Let's not forget that we had our own draft pick. Assuming that without Al and Josh now the team presumptively drops in the standings so our pick goes from 23rd to 14/15th. Add another 1.5 million in rookie scale contract.

That's 51.1 million to 7 players

The salary cap is 58 million for 2012-2013.

58 - 51.1 = 6.9 million

This is cap space to you? This???????

Whoops

Let's not forget Shawne Williams 3.1 million in salary.

6.9 - 3.1 = 3.8 million in cap space to 8 players

Congratulations, your "viable" plan just traded Josh Smith for a mid tier lotto pick and 3.8 million worth of cap space in 2012 (I'm not going to bother mentioning minimum roster holds, I'll wait and see if you can handle this basic arithmetic first)

-
The Hawks didn't get anything for Joe? Uhm, does saving 70 million dollars in salary not count as something anymore? And the team even got a conditional 1st out of it too. Sounds a lot better than a conditional 1st and 3.8 mil in savings right? Right?

Especially...because Josh requested to go.

Brooklyn was always going to have a chance to re-sign him. They have NYC, a new arena, Jay-Z and a billionaire owner.

They traded the house for a year and a half of Deron. They traded a lottery pick for 10 weeks of Gerald Wallace.

They just needed marquee names and productive players.

And just because you disagree doesn't require the amount of ridicule and vitriol you keep spewing my way.

Seriously.

Yea, he requested to be traded. Does that mean that the Hawks have to take back pennies on the dollar for him while not improving the team at all? Especially now that he has publicly stated that he's recommitted to the franchise?

Of course, this post here is a clear sign of your own foolishness throughout this thread. You went back digging through other posts that had zero application to this context and now ended muddling up your own discussion.

I never once refereed to the Nets having any fear of resigning Josh, I'm referring specifically to the old posts that you want to dig up about the Hawks being unable to acquire the 2nd pick in the draft for him. Rebuilding teams aren't trading prime assets for a guy they have to now convince to stick around longer. Teams on their way to rebuilding aren't trading their star for a similar reason (notice that Bynum is in Philadelphia and not Orlando).

I've confronted you with fact and logic with every turn and all you've done is ignore what I've written and gone grave-digging in an entirely childish attempt to save face with hollow attacks that have zero bearing on your statements within or even to the context of this thread; "Hawks can't acquire 2 Max players". You're damn right they can't if all they did is trade Josh for less than 3.8 million in cap space and Damion Lillard. If you aren't taking too kindly to my tone after having to continuously repeat myself on something you can just scroll back and read....oh well.

I've offered facts, all you've done is argue an extremely tenuous "solution" based entirely on your own personal bias against Josh. From there all you've managed to do is attempt weak obfuscation tactics. Really no point to me wasting my time on you anymore because you haven't offered anything of merit in response.