Al Horford to the 4?

[Hawk Eye]

Does anyone else think that the hawks will benefit by moving Big Al to the 4 spot? I feel like Al is a little undersized (6"10) at the center position which seems to now consist of guys at 7 feet or taller. It's not mainly fixated on the height issue though. The hawks were one of the worst rebounding teams in the league this season. Personally, I'd like to see the hawks pick up a guy that can crash the boards on a nightly basis for the 5 spot. I would prefer the hawks to go out and get a big man during the off season/free agency. I would like Asik before Spencer Hawes or Jordan Hill. Then they could use their draft pick (15th) on HOPEFULLY Nik Stauskas or Garry Harris.

[theatlfan]

I think many would agree with your premise around here - especially after watching us drop a C a month from December through February.

I'd guess that I'm the one who has been tagged as the biggest proponent against the plan on this board though. It's not that I'd prefer to keep Horford at C - it's that I want to bring have the most of amount of talent on the floor at one time. When I look at the positions we have, I just think that we've got 2 AS bigs and a whole bunch of upgradable pieces everywhere else on the court. If we go out and spend $8M on a big that might not even play in crunch time due to redundancy then we'll just end up in the same situation DET is in now and hoping to deal one of those pieces off to get better balance on the floor. If we're going to go out and slurge in FA, then I'd prefer to go ahead and land a wing.

The obvious caveat here is that, if we deal one of Millsap or Horford, then all bets are off. I'd have no problem reconfiguring our bigs and getting an upgrade on a position that is already an AS.

[Jamaaliver]

theatlfan pretty much nailed it in his summary. We're split into three camps here:

1. Think AL has had been an All Star at Center and should remain there.
2. Think AL is getting beat up and should be switched to PF where he could dominate (I'm of this mind)
3. Guys who just want to acquire talent regardless

i do believe AL's career is being shortened by the amount of time he spends banging against larger player every year. I think he'd be a dominant PF. I don't even think we'd need a top Center, just a capable one who can rebound and score in the post. Looking at how well LaMarcus Aldridge played in POR this year next to Robin Lopez only furthers this line of thinking.

I don't see Paul Millsap as anything more than a stopgap who will likely take his talent elsewhere next summer.

The hawks were one of the worst rebounding teams in the league this season.

The rebounding issue has been a problem for years, as we've trotted out an undersized PF and undersized Center for the last decade. We've never even had a competent backup Center to at least spell AL and perhaps keep him healthy for more than a year.

Also, welcome to the blogs.

[Baller2014]

I think Al Horford would love to play more 4. And I don't care. Like the guy above says, you put the most talent on the court you can, so long as it works line-up wise. Horford at the 5 does work line-up wise (he matches up well with pretty much all the 5's in the NBA). If it was possible to bring in a 5 who made it worthwhile, then sure, but 5's like that almost don't exist on the market. Asik sure isn't one. Getting him wouldn't leave the Hawks any better off than they are with Milsap and Horford on the floor.

I'm just tired of the "Horford must be played at the 4!" brigade, who act like the coaching staff are idiots who never considered this before. Of course they have thought about it, and if they could get someone who it worked with they would do it. That's easier said than done though.

Almost all 5's, no matter how big, whine at some point in their career about getting beaten up in the post, and demanding a 4/5 to come in and do the dirty work for them. Even Shaq, as true a 5 as you can imagine, whined about the front office getting him a 4 to clean up the glass and take hits in the paint for him. While the Lakers front office did look for such guys, they also expected Shaq to shut up, do his job, and take the hits (which he didn't always do). Horford should be expected to do the same thing and stop crying about it.

I love Horford btw, he's a very underrated player, a borderline franchise player in fact. But he's under contract. He's being paid to be a big guy, not a soft outside jump shooter. It's in Horford's interests to bang less inside, because it'll let him play longer, but it's not in the Hawks short term interests because:
a) Someone still has to bang inside, and that guy will be less effective than Horford, and
b) It means the Hawks are being denied a part of Horford's game, just so Horford can have a longer (but less valuable) career. He wasn't signed or developed or drafted to be a finesse player, part of what makes him so valuable if his inside play, and I see no benefit to the Hawks in trying to turn him into Chris Webber (who spent too much of his career taking jump shots, and not nearly enough playing inside and banging like he should have).

[dms269]

The problem is that Horford has been saying for a while, "play me at the 4, let me play the 4". By refusing to listen to him, we are basically telling him that what he says doesn't matter. He has a legitimate argument as he is undersized.

While he is under contract, he won't be in 2 years. Ignoring Al is almost like telling him he can walk since we don't care about him.

[Baller2014]

Extend him, and if he doesn't agree to an extension trade him with a year to go. The team shouldn't make bad line-up choices to placate a player. If a suitable 5 could be obtained at a fair cost it'd be worth looking at, but I don't see such a deal on the table. Asik isn't really the answer, unless he can be obtained without losing Milsap or any other valuable assets. Nor would a player like Robin Lopez (who isn't available really) help much either.

[MaceCase]

I think Al Horford would love to play more 4. And I don't care. Like the guy above says, you put the most talent on the court you can, so long as it works line-up wise. Horford at the 5 does work line-up wise (he matches up well with pretty much all the 5's in the NBA). If it was possible to bring in a 5 who made it worthwhile, then sure, but 5's like that almost don't exist on the market. Asik sure isn't one. Getting him wouldn't leave the Hawks any better off than they are with Milsap and Horford on the floor.

I'm just tired of the "Horford must be played at the 4!" brigade, who act like the coaching staff are idiots who never considered this before. Of course they have thought about it, and if they could get someone who it worked with they would do it. That's easier said than done though.

Almost all 5's, no matter how big, whine at some point in their career about getting beaten up in the post, and demanding a 4/5 to come in and do the dirty work for them. Even Shaq, as true a 5 as you can imagine, whined about the front office getting him a 4 to clean up the glass and take hits in the paint for him. While the Lakers front office did look for such guys, they also expected Shaq to shut up, do his job, and take the hits (which he didn't always do). Horford should be expected to do the same thing and stop crying about it.

I love Horford btw, he's a very underrated player, a borderline franchise player in fact. But he's under contract. He's being paid to be a big guy, not a soft outside jump shooter. It's in Horford's interests to bang less inside, because it'll let him play longer, but it's not in the Hawks short term interests because:
a) Someone still has to bang inside, and that guy will be less effective than Horford, and
b) It means the Hawks are being denied a part of Horford's game, just so Horford can have a longer (but less valuable) career. He wasn't signed or developed or drafted to be a finesse player, part of what makes him so valuable if his inside play, and I see no benefit to the Hawks in trying to turn him into Chris Webber (who spent too much of his career taking jump shots, and not nearly enough playing inside and banging like he should have).

.......Who are you and where did you come from?!

[Hawk Eye]

Extend him, and if he doesn't agree to an extension trade him with a year to go. The team shouldn't make bad line-up choices to placate a player. If a suitable 5 could be obtained at a fair cost it'd be worth looking at, but I don't see such a deal on the table. Asik isn't really the answer, unless he can be obtained without losing Milsap or any other valuable assets. Nor would a player like Robin Lopez (who isn't available really) help much either.

I love big Al, but your logic makes a lot of sense. I don't want Al to leave the hawks but if he doesn't agree to an extension then it's probably best to put him on the trade table to see what we can get for him. The only thing that worries me in this scenario is the famous Horford injury problems. It seems like he's the most injury prone guy on the hawks roster. I'm sure a lot of teams that would be interested in him would have this thought in the back of their heads as well. Still, it would be extremely interesting to see the offers we would get for him.

[dms269]

Extend him, and if he doesn't agree to an extension trade him with a year to go. The team shouldn't make bad line-up choices to placate a player. If a suitable 5 could be obtained at a fair cost it'd be worth looking at, but I don't see such a deal on the table. Asik isn't really the answer, unless he can be obtained without losing Milsap or any other valuable assets. Nor would a player like Robin Lopez (who isn't available really) help much either.

You aren't going to get a ton for him in that instance. Al will likely state his displeasure with Atlanta. You will be left with an Asik situation where his value plummeted because everyone knew he was unhappy there. Same thing can be said for Al. The real question is would you rather have Al and a player like Asik, or would you rather have the cap space Al gives you (and to a much lesser extent, Millsap's salary as well).

[Jamaaliver]

I'm just tired of the "Horford must be played at the 4!" brigade, who act like the coaching staff are idiots who never considered this before. Of course they have thought about it, and if they could get someone who it worked with they would do it. That's easier said than done though.

You make a solid point. But it's worth remembering that in Larry Drew's last two seasons here, he often chose to start Horford at PF when playing teams with a legit Center. We saw an Horford play fairly well at the 4, the team play well overall with the bigger frontcourt. And that was with limited role players like Petro, Zaza and Jason Collins.

We refused to make the change permanent back then so that we could placate Josh Smith and leave HIM at the 4. That line of thinking led us nowhere.

It' also worth noting: Our only playoff series win in the last 4 years came with Horford starting at PF. That series was also the only playoff series win against a higher ranked opponent the Hawks have had in 20+ years.

With Horford at PF. I think there is at least an argument to be made that Horford starting at PF is in the team's best interest.

[PandaKidd]

you cant play AH at PF until you get rid of Paul Millsap .

Right? I thought we had this argument before.

What has to happen is AH and the FO has to define his role. If hes a CENTER, then Millsap WORKS. IF hes a PF, then we must get rid of Millsap NOW this offseason AND pickup a Center.

[Geaux_Hawks]

theatlfan pretty much nailed it in his summary. We're split into three camps here:

1. Think AL has had been an All Star at Center and should remain there.
2. Think AL is getting beat up and should be switched to PF where he could dominate (I'm of this mind)
3. Guys who just want to acquire talent regardless

i do believe AL's career is being shortened by the amount of time he spends banging against larger player every year. I think he'd be a dominant PF. I don't even think we'd need a top Center, just a capable one who can rebound and score in the post. Looking at how well LaMarcus Aldridge played in POR this year next to Robin Lopez only furthers this line of thinking.

Really don't see Al playing the 4 translating into making us a better team. If that was the case, why go out and sign Milsaps? Yeah, I know it was great value, but why add another 4 when supposedly we have a good one on the roster already? Was Milsap supposed to be a stop gap until we found a quality 5?

In all honesty, I think our FO realize that Horford is better for us at the 5 than some overpriced guy like Asik. Moving him to the 4 isn't going to give him an advantage that he already doesn't have at the 5. At best, he will see the occasional undersized guy.

Aldridge was playing a lot at the 5 before this season and was still averaging over 20 a night. He's taken the same abuse Al has on certain nights. I think Al needs to just accept the factt hat he is a 5 and that his days playing with Noah at the 5 are over. Noah is almost 20 pounds lighter now and you don't hear him complaining.

[Jamaaliver]

Really don't see Al playing the 4 translating into making us a better team. If that was the case, why go out and sign Milsaps? Yeah, I know it was great value, but why add another 4 when supposedly we have a good one on the roster already?

Because we initially tried to sign a Center to play next to him. Remember? Dwight Howard didn't want to play here so we fell to our backup option...and then only signed him to a 2-yr deal.

you cant play AH at PF until you get rid of Paul Millsap .

Right? I thought we had this argument before.

Paul Millsap is simply a stopgap. He is gone in less than a year. I haven't heard a single whisper about us offering him an extension as he enters the final year of his contract with us. I don't beleive anyone in the Front Office is proceeding with the belief that Millsap is here for the long haul.

[ATLHawksfan21]

I think Al Horford would love to play more 4. And I don't care. Like the guy above says, you put the most talent on the court you can, so long as it works line-up wise. Horford at the 5 does work line-up wise (he matches up well with pretty much all the 5's in the NBA). If it was possible to bring in a 5 who made it worthwhile, then sure, but 5's like that almost don't exist on the market. Asik sure isn't one. Getting him wouldn't leave the Hawks any better off than they are with Milsap and Horford on the floor.

I'm just tired of the "Horford must be played at the 4!" brigade, who act like the coaching staff are idiots who never considered this before. Of course they have thought about it, and if they could get someone who it worked with they would do it. That's easier said than done though.

Almost all 5's, no matter how big, whine at some point in their career about getting beaten up in the post, and demanding a 4/5 to come in and do the dirty work for them. Even Shaq, as true a 5 as you can imagine, whined about the front office getting him a 4 to clean up the glass and take hits in the paint for him. While the Lakers front office did look for such guys, they also expected Shaq to shut up, do his job, and take the hits (which he didn't always do). Horford should be expected to do the same thing and stop crying about it.

I love Horford btw, he's a very underrated player, a borderline franchise player in fact. But he's under contract. He's being paid to be a big guy, not a soft outside jump shooter. It's in Horford's interests to bang less inside, because it'll let him play longer, but it's not in the Hawks short term interests because:
a) Someone still has to bang inside, and that guy will be less effective than Horford, and
b) It means the Hawks are being denied a part of Horford's game, just so Horford can have a longer (but less valuable) career. He wasn't signed or developed or drafted to be a finesse player, part of what makes him so valuable if his inside play, and I see no benefit to the Hawks in trying to turn him into Chris Webber (who spent too much of his career taking jump shots, and not nearly enough playing inside and banging like he should have).

Amen! Agree 100% with everything you just said.

Land a guy like Howard and hell yeah let's move Horford to the 4, but I won't no part of substituting Asik for Milsap. That would be a terrible decision.

[ATLHawksfan21]

you cant play AH at PF until you get rid of Paul Millsap .

Right? I thought we had this argument before.

What has to happen is AH and the FO has to define his role. If hes a CENTER, then Millsap WORKS. IF hes a PF, then we must get rid of Millsap NOW this offseason AND pickup a Center.

There's 48 minutes in a ballgame and most guys only play around 32-35 minutes per game so Horford can still log plenty of time at PF with Milsap on the team if we found a reliable center. Milsap can also play low minutes at SF which opens more time for Horford at PF if the coaches care to do that. Milsap at SF would have to be in limited SF though. I prefer him at the PF.

[ATLHawksfan21]

Really don't see Al playing the 4 translating into making us a better team. If that was the case, why go out and sign Milsaps? Yeah, I know it was great value, but why add another 4 when supposedly we have a good one on the roster already?

Because we initially tried to sign a Center to play next to him. Remember? Dwight Howard didn't want to play here so we fell to our backup option...and then only signed him to a 2-yr deal.

you cant play AH at PF until you get rid of Paul Millsap .

Right? I thought we had this argument before.

Paul Millsap is simply a stopgap. He is gone in less than a year. I haven't heard a single whisper about us offering him an extension as he enters the final year of his contract with us. I don't beleive anyone in the Front Office is proceeding with the belief that Millsap is here for the long haul.

Have we heard a single whisper about any move that Ferry has made before he made it? We have no clue whether Milsap is in the long-term plans or not. I think our team's play next season will determine if he stays or goes. or Ferry could trade him this offseason if he has a shot at a real gamechanger. Who knows.

[Geaux_Hawks]

Really don't see Al playing the 4 translating into making us a better team. If that was the case, why go out and sign Milsaps? Yeah, I know it was great value, but why add another 4 when supposedly we have a good one on the roster already?

Because we initially tried to sign a Center to play next to him. Remember? Dwight Howard didn't want to play here so we fell to our backup option...and then only signed him to a 2-yr deal.

Not signing Howard still doesn't give an explanation to the Milsaps signing. There were other centers still available(i.e. Kaman, Jefferson).

[Jamaaliver]

Not signing Howard still doesn't give an explanation to the Milsaps signing. There were other centers still available(i.e. Kaman, Jefferson).

Or like Pero Antic, Lucas Nogueira?

Ferry went after Centers last summer. The one's he got were underwhelming. It's fair to say he's preparing for life with some one else manning the 5 spot in the near future. We've been linked Asik and Hawes for quite a while also.

As far as Jefferson...in hindsight that probably would have been the way to go based on price, age, production.

The real headscratcher, is why didn't he draft Gorgui Dieng last summer? He filled a need as backup center to Horford, or replacement when he went down. Ready to contribute on Day One.

[MaceCase]

Really don't see Al playing the 4 translating into making us a better team. If that was the case, why go out and sign Milsaps? Yeah, I know it was great value, but why add another 4 when supposedly we have a good one on the roster already?

Because we initially tried to sign a Center to play next to him. Remember? Dwight Howard didn't want to play here so we fell to our backup option...and then only signed him to a 2-yr deal.

Not signing Howard still doesn't give an explanation to the Milsaps signing. There were other centers still available(i.e. Kaman, Jefferson).

It's like he's trying to say that the only interest in Howard was because he was a C...............rather than the fact that he's Dwight Frickin Howard.

[Hawk Eye]

Personally I like the idea of trading Milsap for a wing player and possibly a good pick in this years draft. I don't think that's too far fetched either considering Milsap's performance this year. Perhaps maybe Milsap and our 43rd draft pick for charlottes 9th draft pick and Michael Kidd-Gilchrest? Then we would have our wing player and move Horford to the 4. Thoughts anyone?