HAWKS SELECT ADREIAN PAYNE - UPDATE: Payne dead at age 31

[atlantabbq99]

You guys need to put more faith in your front office. Here you are, blessed with a great GM and coach exported from the Spurs front office, and you complain and moan. Where is the trust? These guys got criticised all last offseason across the internet, and look how that turned out- you'd have been a top 3 team in the East if Horford stayed healthy, and they still somehow got you into the playoffs.

Ya i agree, i don't think Ferry has lost in a draft yet since joining the Hawks.

Even by missing a year, Jenkins is doing better than Plumlee, Perry Jones, Teague, Festus, and Jeff Taylor. Draymond is doing good but still has a low ceiling, and Wroten is okay but is horribly inefficient

Mike Scott is doing way better than anybody selected behind him.

Bebe and Schroder are still envious prospects.

Ferry likes drafting high character guys who are shooters and Payne is definitely both of those thing by high marks.

Payne has a big hart and is a gym rat and i don't think he is a guy who is staying late at the club the night before a game. Payne's measurements at the combine shows that he passes the eye test.

Who knows if Payne can be another LaMarcus Aldridge because they have the same reach and weight, but Payne is a team player and not a me player, he should have a long career just based on his size alone.

[theatlfan]

You guys need to put more faith in your front office. Here you are, blessed with a great GM and coach exported from the Spurs front office, and you complain and moan. Where is the trust? These guys got criticised all last offseason across the internet, and look how that turned out- you'd have been a top 3 team in the East if Horford stayed healthy, and they still somehow got you into the playoffs.

Personally, I'd think it to be foolish to place trust in someone based on who he knows over what he knows. There are plenty of guys who've come from impressive backgrounds and failed. H3ll, look no further than Ferry with CLE for a prime example of this.

I've actually been an apologist for Ferry for much of the last year, but I agree with the naysayers in thinking that the rubber has to hit the road at some point. It's all well and good to collect cap space and sign good bargains in FA, but there aren't too many championships won without a perennial AS (or 2... or 3) on the team and we haven't seen much traction toward this aim - as others are quick to point, we've probably gone backwards since Ferry has been in town. It's one thing if you have Duncan/Parker/Ginobili like SAS or even Exum/Favors like UTH, but if you don't have those pieces then you have to run your business differently and should be judged on different metrics.

I've been vocal about saying the next 2 off seasons are where Ferry should turn his assets into AS. IF he can do that then he'll have earned his trust. If we're in the same position then as we are now (a well coached and gritty team that lacks top end talent) then I'll write him off... As would Horford I'd guess too.

Ya i agree, i don't think Ferry has lost in a draft yet since joining the Hawks.

Even by missing a year, Jenkins is doing better than Plumlee, Perry Jones, Teague, Festus, and Jeff Taylor. Draymond is doing good but still has a low ceiling, and Wroten is okay but is horribly inefficient

Mike Scott is doing way better than anybody selected behind him.

Bebe and Schroder are still envious prospects.

Ferry likes drafting high character guys who are shooters and Payne is definitely both of those thing by high marks.

Payne has a big hart and is a gym rat and i don't think he is a guy who is staying late at the club the night before a game. Payne's measurements at the combine shows that he passes the eye test.

Who knows if Payne can be another LaMarcus Aldridge because they have the same reach and weight, but Payne is a team player and not a me player, he should have a long career just based on his size alone.

Not sure I agree with any of this. I wouldn't say Ferry has won a draft since he's been here... and I'd think Ferry would agree.

In all likelihood, Jenkins is done. Back surgery will rob him of some athleticism and he didn't have much to give in the 1st place. It's a shame but injuries are a part of the game...

Bebe and Schröder were taken 16 & 17 in a weak draft, and their stock has taken a pretty hard tumble since. Schröder rated in the just flat awful category in his limited minutes with us; Bebe did some things on the court but his off court antics (something many here are quick to point out for players on other teams) burned a lot of bridges in Europe. Not to say we should give up on either, but I wouldn't think either would have broken into the 1st round this year.

Time will tell on Payne, but I'm not sure he'll have the mental facilities to make the jump to the NBA. If he can be an energy big with some skills, he could be useful overall though I'm thinking we won't see him in there much come the end of the 1/2 or the game.

To his credit though, Ferry has done very well in the 2nd round and has been a bit snake bit with his promises (Greek Freak and Saric were both heavily rumored promises that feel flat; we tried to promise Prozingis but he withdrew). In all cases, I do think many would have considered him a genius if he'd have gotten those guys where we were picking. I'd think that even Ferry would point to these losses as critical Draft Day losses. IMO, Ferry came in with a plan and failed to adequately readjust when the plan fell apart.

[Baller2014]

Ferry was a good GM in Cleveland. I know you're going to make me explain this part to you, and if pushed I will, but while we're at it who were these bad Spur GMs again? The only example I can think of is a non-example. Lance Blanks was not a Spurs front office protégé, he was so poorly regarded they moved him from the position of scout to TV commentator. He sold himself to Sarver as a Spurs guy, and Sarver liked to say "I hired someone from the Spurs front office", but he wasn't.

[Jamaaliver]

I've actually been an apologist for Ferry for much of the last year, but I agree with the naysayers in thinking that the rubber has to hit the road at some point...as others are quick to point, we've probably gone backwards since Ferry has been in town.

IMO, Ferry came in with a plan and failed to adequately readjust when the plan fell apart.

Preach, brother. Ferry's been treading water for more than a year now, waiting on an opportunity that might have already passed.

Meanqhile, we seem to have become enamored with his backup plans.

He's acquired a strong coach, coupled it with mediocre talent and has turned us into a solid team in a bad conference. Something we already were before he got here.

The fanbase is fractured, our record is decreasing. And I see no light at the end of the tunnel.

What's the point of acquiring roster flexibility if our GM never actually makes a move with it?

[Baller2014]

1) You'd have been 3rd in the East if healthy, hardly "nowhere",
2) Your ownership wants to keep making the playoffs on the cheap and not tank. Given the financial position of the Hawks (biggest loss of all NBA teams who were trying to make money last year) I understand the decision not to tank, but rather to rebuild their brand.

When the Hawks exceed expectations again next season will fans here give Ferry some credit finally?

[Jamaaliver]

1) You'd have been 3rd in the East if healthy, hardly "nowhere",

When the Hawks exceed expectations again next season will fans here give Ferry some credit finally?

C'mon man. We don't know that for sure. When Horford went down we were 3 games above .500 on pace to win 47 games. None of those win totals gets us a top 3 seed. Perhaps we would have improved, but we can't say with certainty.

I think if Ferry makes definitive moves to improve the roster's talent long-term, you'll see the fan base coalesce behind him. But to most casual observers, the team is no better today than it was 4 years ago when we won 53 games and lost in the second round of the playoffs.

2) Your ownership wants to keep making the playoffs on the cheap and not tank. Given the financial position of the Hawks (biggest loss of all NBA teams who were trying to make money last year)

Link?

[Yungsta404]

We were the third seed because at the time everyone in the east, besides indy and miami, were struggling to reach .500. Those teams were able to turn it around later in the season

[atlantabbq99]

I've actually been an apologist for Ferry for much of the last year, but I agree with the naysayers in thinking that the rubber has to hit the road at some point...as others are quick to point, we've probably gone backwards since Ferry has been in town.

IMO, Ferry came in with a plan and failed to adequately readjust when the plan fell apart.

Preach, brother. Ferry's been treading water for more than a year now, waiting on an opportunity that might have already passed.

Meanqhile, we seem to have become enamored with his backup plans.

He's acquired a strong coach, coupled it with mediocre talent and has turned us into a solid team in a bad conference. Something we already were before he got here.

The fanbase is fractured, our record is decreasing. And I see no light at the end of the tunnel.

What's the point of acquiring roster flexibility if our GM never actually makes a move with it?

Ferry has been moving this team forward since he got here. Got rid of Joe in a brilliant move, then took an 8th placed team and made them good enough to be 3rd best team.

On top of that he swings for the fences every off season, first Dwight and now Carmelo and Monroe. Its not his fault that Altanta is know as haveing the worst fans in the US and no superstar ever wants to come here, it was like that even way before Ferry got here.

[Jamaaliver]

Got rid of Joe in a brilliant move, then took an 8th placed team and made them good enough to be 3rd best team.

I do not follow. I recall us consistently being a top 5 team in the East BEFORE he got here. We've been sliding back in the standings every season since his arrival.

[theatlfan]

Ferry was a good GM in Cleveland. I know you're going to make me explain this part to you, and if pushed I will, but while we're at it who were these bad Spur GMs again? The only example I can think of is a non-example. Lance Blanks was not a Spurs front office protégé, he was so poorly regarded they moved him from the position of scout to TV commentator. He sold himself to Sarver as a Spurs guy, and Sarver liked to say "I hired someone from the Spurs front office", but he wasn't.

Look, I've heard the arguments for Ferry in CLE and I have my own theories, but in the end, he set the stage so that the hometown kid made good, best player of his generation, the freak who single-handedly kept CLE in Championship consideration, and the guy who still lives nearby in the offseason to "ledecide" to walk instead of stay. If you are judging Ferry by any other metric, then I'd argue you need to change your metrics. One look at what happened to that team once Lebron left (from 60 Ws to 20) and we can see what the talent Lebron was surrounded with - and why he decided to bolt.

For every rule there is an exception, and if Blanks isn't the exception, then maybe Ferry is.

1) You'd have been 3rd in the East if healthy, hardly "nowhere",
2) Your ownership wants to keep making the playoffs on the cheap and not tank. Given the financial position of the Hawks (biggest loss of all NBA teams who were trying to make money last year) I understand the decision not to tank, but rather to rebuild their brand.

When the Hawks exceed expectations again next season will fans here give Ferry some credit finally?

We may have been 3rd in the East, but honestly, who cares? There were only ever 2 teams in the East that had a shot at the Finals and all we were was in the running for "best of the rest". It isn't like we have a particularly young team that can only get better; the only starter last year under 27 was Teague @ 25. As pointed out, being 3rd in the East basically meant consistently being around .500 and let's not make a .500 record out to be more than it is - it is the standard of mediocrity. If you ain't competing for titles, then what are you competing for?

Actually agree with the ownership comment. They tanked with Knight as the GM and many fans never came back, they don't want to go through that again. I'm OK with this method, but I also think that, to do this, the GM has to have different strengths and skills than "classic" rebuilding, and you have to judge the GM on the situation that he accepted. For the "rebuild in place" methodology to work, you have to be creative in finding the stars that you're willing to build around and, yes, you'll have to take some chances to find them. IF this draft is any indication, then it appears that Ferry will be content to try to consistently hit doubles which, for our particular situation, simply won't be enough. We'll be forever competing for the #3 seed and never breaking through into being a championship contender.

Before ending this post though, I do want to make myself clear: I'm not completely beside myself with where Ferry has us right now. He has taken the players who made it clear that they'd prefer to gouge for every penny that they could get their hands on and cleared them off the roster while not losing much to the on court product. I don't disagree that this is a rather impressive undertaking within the first 2 years. I just think that now is the time that Ferry has turn the mode from tread water while clearing cap to acquiring the centerpieces to the next run. If he can't turn that switch, then he just isn't a good GM for us.

[PandaKidd]

Got rid of Joe in a brilliant move, then took an 8th placed team and made them good enough to be 3rd best team.

I do not follow. I recall us consistently being a top 5 team in the East BEFORE he got here. We've been sliding back in the standings every season since his arrival.

Its not a vacuum.

We were a mediocre team with horrible contracts stuck on first round exits with NO HOPE TO IMPROVE.

No we are a mediocre team with good contracts stuck on first round exits with lots of hope to improve.

I give GMs 3 years to vastly make a difference. This is ferry's 2nd off season really. And FA hasn't even begun yet.



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[Jamaaliver]

Got rid of Joe in a brilliant move, then took an 8th placed team and made them good enough to be 3rd best team.

I do not follow. I recall us consistently being a top 5 team in the East BEFORE he got here. We've been sliding back in the standings every season since his arrival.

Its not a vacuum.

We were a mediocre team with horrible contracts stuck on first round exits with NO HOPE TO IMPROVE.

No we are a mediocre team with good contracts stuck on first round exits with lots of hope to improve.

I give GMs 3 years to vastly make a difference. This is ferry's 2nd off season really. And FA hasn't even begun yet.

How is it basically his 2nd off-season...It's his actual 3rd offseason.

[Baller2014]

If you want to play the "injuries prevent us properly evaluating the season" card, then you can't play it only against Ferry and Bud. You have to play it for them too, and say "well, we can't blame them either, given the injuries". My take is you were 3rd in the East pretty comfortably before the injuries kept getting worse, and the overall performance this year was a clear overachievement.

As for the Hawks profitability, here's the last Forbes evaluations:
http://www.forbes.com/nba-valuations/list/
The Hawks were one of only 4 teams to lose money last season, and one of those teams doesn't count (because the Nets were making sure they didn't make money). The new CBA saw huge profits all around the NBA, but the Hawks still lost $3.6 million. You'll see if you click on the Hawks that they lost money the 4 previous seasons too, and not a small amount (a combined $42 mill). It's even worse than that, because the Hawks are not a debt neutral team (almost no teams are), so they're paying interest to banks, not to mention other expenses on top of that not factored into losses (like having to spend to upgrade the arena last year, etc). The new TV deal should help set matters to right, but I cutting costs in the short term is also clearly part of the plan to improve cash flow (while bringing in a good coach and system to ensure the team keeps making the playoffs and doesn't hurt their brand). Last year the Hawks payroll was $73 mill. This season it was obviously much, much lower, and that trend will continue next year as well. Fan attendance was among the worst in the NBA this year. It will be lower still if you tank.

I am a strong advocate of tanking in many threads, but it's not for everyone all the time, and I respect the reasons the Hawks want to give this thing a go in the short term. With savy moves I imagine Bud could have this team win 50 games next season if they're healthy, and while they'd struggle to make moves that would allow them to be a contender, I think the Hawks are good with taking those low odds in the short term while they make bank. If this doesn't work out in 2-3 years, then you can have a firesale and tank then (once the new TV contract has kicked in, and the team has built up some cash reserves). You say "if Ferry can't make us a contender now, he isn't a good GM for us". Almost no GM could do that though.

Ferry didn't fail in Cleveland. He came into an situation where the Cavs had nothing outside Lebron. All the picks had been traded or squandered, the talent lost (e.g. Boozer), and Lebron potentially taking the qualifying offer if the team didn't take a win now direction (with his earning power, he'd have been one of the few players who could do this and not risk much money). Ferry had to get the team into win now mode ASAP, and ownership clearly gave him those orders too. When he got there they didn't even want to keep Z-Ill, and he had to talk them into it. Ferry tried cap space, but no big free agents would sign, and then Larry Hughes (a promising young player who did sign) had his career destroyed by injuries. Some of the role players he acquired were quite solid, and he turned a horrid cast into a passable one. Not a big upgrade, but more difficult to do than you think given the obstacles in his way.

I don't want to oversell the support casts in Cleveland; they sucked. But they were even worse before Ferry got involved, and he had no assets to work with to improve. He did what he could, and the team obtained enough of a bare bones support cast for Lebron to do his thing and carry them to the best record in the NBA 2 years running. We know now Lebron was always planning on leaving, and Ferry did what he could in the circumstances. Interestingly, Ferry resigned before The Decision happened... my hunch is he knew Lebron was gone. Lebron's departure was preordained by the historically bad GM'ing of his predecessor Jim Paxson, one of the worst GM's of all time.

[PandaKidd]

I do not follow. I recall us consistently being a top 5 team in the East BEFORE he got here. We've been sliding back in the standings every season since his arrival.

Its not a vacuum.

We were a mediocre team with horrible contracts stuck on first round exits with NO HOPE TO IMPROVE.

No we are a mediocre team with good contracts stuck on first round exits with lots of hope to improve.

I give GMs 3 years to vastly make a difference. This is ferry's 2nd off season really. And FA hasn't even begun yet.

How is it basically his 2nd off-season...It's his actual 3rd offseason.

Because he came in 1 week before the draft with the year befores cap space and player contracts. His first offseason was when he dumped JJ and MW but he inherited Josh Smith, Horford, Larry Drew etc. He didnt really have his own cap to work with until LAST offseason with the Millsap signing and DMC

Hes only had 1 year with HIS COACH.

Cmon you have to be trolling, we agreed on this before.

[ATLHawksfan21]

1) You'd have been 3rd in the East if healthy, hardly "nowhere",
2) Your ownership wants to keep making the playoffs on the cheap and not tank. Given the financial position of the Hawks (biggest loss of all NBA teams who were trying to make money last year) I understand the decision not to tank, but rather to rebuild their brand.

When the Hawks exceed expectations again next season will fans here give Ferry some credit finally?

It's good to see a fan of another team having the same positive outlook on this team, coaching staff and front office as I do. Now if we can just open the eyes of all of the Hawks fans.

[theatlfan]

I think you're responding to a few people here, so I'll just selectively respond...

If you want to play the "injuries prevent us properly evaluating the season" card, then you can't play it only against Ferry and Bud. You have to play it for them too, and say "well, we can't blame them either, given the injuries". My take is you were 3rd in the East pretty comfortably before the injuries kept getting worse, and the overall performance this year was a clear overachievement.

As for the Hawks profitability, here's the last Forbes evaluations:
http://www.forbes.com/nba-valuations/list/
The Hawks were one of only 4 teams to lose money last season, and one of those teams doesn't count (because the Nets were making sure they didn't make money). The new CBA saw huge profits all around the NBA, but the Hawks still lost $3.6 million. You'll see if you click on the Hawks that they lost money the 4 previous seasons too, and not a small amount (a combined $42 mill). It's even worse than that, because the Hawks are not a debt neutral team (almost no teams are), so they're paying interest to banks, not to mention other expenses on top of that not factored into losses (like having to spend to upgrade the arena last year, etc). The new TV deal should help set matters to right, but I cutting costs in the short term is also clearly part of the plan to improve cash flow (while bringing in a good coach and system to ensure the team keeps making the playoffs and doesn't hurt their brand). Last year the Hawks payroll was $73 mill. This season it was obviously much, much lower, and that trend will continue next year as well. Fan attendance was among the worst in the NBA this year. It will be lower still if you tank.

Thanks for the list. There are some issues with our team in terms of debt and I don't know how Forbes breaks it out. The same group that owns the Hawks owns the Arena we play in as well. Sometimes I've seen these combined; sometimes I've seen them separated. In years past, I think Forbes separated it. It makes a big difference on the overall numbers though. For one, the Hawks carry all the debt - the city itself doesn't allow debt on the arena. 2nd, last I checked, the arena didn't actually make $$. This was before the sale of the hockey team though and one of the reasons for selling that team was to make the arena profitable.

I am a strong advocate of tanking in many threads, but it's not for everyone all the time, and I respect the reasons the Hawks want to give this thing a go in the short term. With savy moves I imagine Bud could have this team win 50 games next season if they're healthy, and while they'd struggle to make moves that would allow them to be a contender, I think the Hawks are good with taking those low odds in the short term while they make bank. If this doesn't work out in 2-3 years, then you can have a firesale and tank then (once the new TV contract has kicked in, and the team has built up some cash reserves). You say "if Ferry can't make us a contender now, he isn't a good GM for us". Almost no GM could do that though.

I'm a big advocate of thinking that no decision is made in a vacuum. Many will think "hey, I like Player X" but for an NBA franchise, you probably need about 5-10 guys to think similarly before you make investigations into acquiring the player. This is just for a minor transaction - so forth a franchise direction.

Having said that, the problem with this is that there is heavy competition in ATL for the entertainment $$. I am sure the same is true in Texas, but you have to understand how compressed things are here. We have recently successful NFL and MLB franchises inside ATL; we have the ACC BB and SEC FB. 6 different SEC schools, FSU's, and Clemson's FB stadium make up 8 of the 40 or so largest sports venues in the world and are within a 5 hour drive of Atlanta which is a little longer than the travel time from Dallas to San Antonio. Further, LSU isn't too much further and within a stone's throw of arguably the coolest city in the US. More and more cities in proximity to ATL are getting professional franchises as well - CHAR (NBA/NFL), ORL (NBA), TB (MLB) - that slowly eats away at our fan base. We haven't even discussed things like Spring Training or minor league BB nor non-sporting event. The fact is that you just can't expect to make a big profit here by churning out teams that would be fringe playoff teams in the West - just not going to happen. You either need to think big or get out because you won't make $$ here trying to take the middle road... not with a sports team at least.

As I noted above, I have no problem with the direction and no problem with where we are at now. But if the plan is simply to compete for the "best of the rest" title, then yeah, Ferry will have failed here.

Ferry didn't fail in Cleveland. He came into an situation where the Cavs had nothing outside Lebron. All the picks had been traded or squandered, the talent lost (e.g. Boozer), and Lebron potentially taking the qualifying offer if the team didn't take a win now direction (with his earning power, he'd have been one of the few players who could do this and not risk much money). Ferry had to get the team into win now mode ASAP, and ownership clearly gave him those orders too. When he got there they didn't even want to keep Z-Ill, and he had to talk them into it. Ferry tried cap space, but no big free agents would sign, and then Larry Hughes (a promising young player who did sign) had his career destroyed by injuries. Some of the role players he acquired were quite solid, and he turned a horrid cast into a passable one. Not a big upgrade, but more difficult to do than you think given the obstacles in his way.

I don't want to oversell the support casts in Cleveland; they sucked. But they were even worse before Ferry got involved, and he had no assets to work with to improve. He did what he could, and the team obtained enough of a bare bones support cast for Lebron to do his thing and carry them to the best record in the NBA 2 years running. We know now Lebron was always planning on leaving, and Ferry did what he could in the circumstances. Interestingly, Ferry resigned before The Decision happened... my hunch is he knew Lebron was gone. Lebron's departure was preordained by the historically bad GM'ing of his predecessor Jim Paxson, one of the worst GM's of all time.

It will be a *very* rare case that a new GM will ever walk in behind a successful GM - otherwise the last guy would still have the job. Sure, Paxson might be worse than many (I would put up a couple of our GMs during my lifetime for contention in the worst NBA GM of all time), but the fact is that most every GM walks into a bad situation and having Lebron meant that Ferry's situation wasn't as bad as you make it seem. I can't think of any GM that wouldn't prefer to walk into a situation with established stars and have to deal with supporting them than walking into a tear down/rebuild situation. All he needed to do was cobble together a semi-decent supporting case - just one that could stay afloat in case Lebron went down - and 19 Ws says that, after 5 years, he was nowhere close.

[ATLHawksfan21]

It's not like the Cavs had the same exact team from the year Lebron was there to the year he left. They lost Shaq, Delonte West and Big Z in the offseason. Varejao missed most of the season due to injury. Mo Williams was traded before the halfpoint of the season. Jamison also missed 1/3 of the season.

In short, their front court was decimated.

I agree that they wouldnt have been a playoff team if they had the exact same team after Lebron left but don't try to pass that team off as the same team that Lebron had. It's not even close to being the truth.

[Jamaaliver]

Its not a vacuum.

We were a mediocre team with horrible contracts stuck on first round exits with NO HOPE TO IMPROVE.

No we are a mediocre team with good contracts stuck on first round exits with lots of hope to improve.

I give GMs 3 years to vastly make a difference. This is ferry's 2nd off season really. And FA hasn't even begun yet.

How is it basically his 2nd off-season...It's his actual 3rd offseason.

Because he came in 1 week before the draft with the year befores cap space and player contracts. His first offseason was when he dumped JJ and MW but he inherited Josh Smith, Horford, Larry Drew etc. He didnt really have his own cap to work with until LAST offseason with the Millsap signing and DMC

Hes only had 1 year with HIS COACH.

Cmon you have to be trolling, we agreed on this before.

Trolling?
Ferry made massive changes from day one. He got to draft who he wanted. He dumped who he wanted. We signed Free Agents he wanted. We signed assistant coach he wanted. He tried to extend Josh Smith and refused to shop him. His imprint was on every move made that summer. It's not as if he sat on his hands doing nothing that first off-season.

He made a massive impact on the franchise in that first summer. But now, suddenly, it doesn't count?

And THAT's trolling?

[atlantabbq99]

How is it basically his 2nd off-season...It's his actual 3rd offseason.

Because he came in 1 week before the draft with the year befores cap space and player contracts. His first offseason was when he dumped JJ and MW but he inherited Josh Smith, Horford, Larry Drew etc. He didnt really have his own cap to work with until LAST offseason with the Millsap signing and DMC

Hes only had 1 year with HIS COACH.

Cmon you have to be trolling, we agreed on this before.

Trolling?
Ferry made massive changes from day one. He got to draft who he wanted. He dumped who he wanted. We signed Free Agents he wanted. We signed assistant coach he wanted. He tried to extend Josh Smith and refused to shop him. His imprint was on every move made that summer. It's not as if he sat on his hands doing nothing that first off-season.

He made a massive impact on the franchise in that first summer. But now, suddenly, it doesn't count?

And THAT's trolling?

He did not sign who he wanted, the wanted Dwight and CP3. Its not Ferry's fault that Atlanta has bad fan and super stars don't want to play here. All he can do is try every year.

[PandaKidd]

How is it basically his 2nd off-season...It's his actual 3rd offseason.

Because he came in 1 week before the draft with the year befores cap space and player contracts. His first offseason was when he dumped JJ and MW but he inherited Josh Smith, Horford, Larry Drew etc. He didnt really have his own cap to work with until LAST offseason with the Millsap signing and DMC

Hes only had 1 year with HIS COACH.

Cmon you have to be trolling, we agreed on this before.

Trolling?
Ferry made massive changes from day one. He got to draft who he wanted. He dumped who he wanted. We signed Free Agents he wanted. We signed assistant coach he wanted. He tried to extend Josh Smith and refused to shop him. His imprint was on every move made that summer. It's not as if he sat on his hands doing nothing that first off-season.

He made a massive impact on the franchise in that first summer. But now, suddenly, it doesn't count?

And THAT's trolling?

Ferry came into a situation that was VERY BAD. We had Sold the team, and had that deal not go through (remember the Latino Pizza Restaurant billionaire )

Ferry walked into a situation that was ALREADY set, we had bad contracts and he literally was hired 3 DAYS before the draft. Im not sure what kind of impact on that draft class he had. Looking at the draft, Jenkins and Scott werent bad picks considering where we were in that draft pick wise. But even then, he had not idea what the roster was going to look like. I HIGHLY doubt he was doing HAWKS due dilligence while he was employed with the Spurs.

the 2013 Draft was one of the WORST draft classes ever. Sure we could use revisionist history and say we should have taken Dieng or Plumlee, etc. I get it, Im not completely happy with Schroeder or Bebe in the first round when there were guys like Tim Hardaway JR or Plumlee. BUT, we havent seen what Schroeder will due given his limited playing time, so its not an apples to apples comparison.

2014 Draft, I liked the Payne pick, but time will tell if it was smart.

hes had 1 Free agency WITH HIS MONEY , where he signed Millsap/Korver/DMC to nice deals. Even Elton Brand. as support. I give him a B for those signings.

How do you not see that?

You also say we have no direction when i think its very clear WE do have direction. We want smart HIGH IQ players on GOOD contracts to fit our system. What was Drews philosophy? Let Josh Smith shoot 17 footers?