Hawks

[Jamaaliver]

AJC Sports Writer Jeff Schultz verbalizes the yearly realization that we feature undersized players in our frontcourt.

This happens pretty much every post season. Some good points in the article:

When an NBA team wins 60 games in the regular season, there is a natural tendency to overlook its liabilities and focus on all of the things it does well...But in many games, like every one in this playoff series against Brooklyn, the team is too small at center.

Al Horford is a great player, all 6-foot-10, 250 pounds of him. If he wasn’t a great player, he wouldn’t be a three-time All-Star...But Horford has struggled in this first-round series against the Nets and their center, Brook Lopez, all 7-foot, 275 pounds of him.

In four games, Horford is avg 13 ppg 9 rpg and is shooting 47 percent from the field.His production has been dwarfed by that of Lopez: 20 ppg 10 rpg and 52.5-percent FG shooting.

It wouldn’t be surprising if Horford has been worn down at the defensive end and that has been affecting him offensively, but he didn’t acknowledge that.

“I’m not sure — we’ve played these guys before and I’ve had some success offensively,” said Horford, who averaged 17.8 points and six rebounds in four regular season games against Brooklyn.

This will continue to be a periodic issue at both ends of the court as long as the Hawks start Horford at center and not power forward, where he seems better suited. But obviously they don’t have another starting center option, although Mike Muscala has showed potential.

Budenholzer and Horford spoke privately on the bench for a few minutes following Sunday’s practice at a gym near the team’s hotel.

“We just talked about how we can move him around and how we can move the defense,” Budenholzer said.
The Hawks are hopeful the adjustments help, because Horford can’t grow two inches on an off day.

This has been an issue, particularly in the playoffs, Horford's entire career. I do think we manage to win the series, but we've seen Horford move to PF next to bums like Johan Petro and Jason Collins and the front court get tougher/stronger as a result. Heck, our last playoff series victory came with Horford playing PF.

Thoughts?
Concerns?
Predictions?
Observations?

[Rip2137]

Yeah, this is utter nonsense. Horfords game as a Center is deadly midrange shot and blowing by Centers if they dare close out or step out on him. He has shot the ball horribly because his hand is hurt. To ignore that and go back to the tired and untrue notion that Al is a PF is lazy writing. If Horford hits these WIDE open jumpers he literally always hits, this is not a argument. Lopez has had some finishes around the rim, but his best game saw him score 8 points in the paint and only 6 of them were off actual moves on his part. Brook is a face up 7 footer. A bigger guy doesn't magically make him easier to guard.

Horford is, and never will be a effective player at PF due to his limitations offensively but he could be effective defensively as a PF.

[Jamaaliver]

Yeah, this is utter nonsense...Horford is, and never will be a effective player at PF due to his limitations offensively but he could be effective defensively as a PF.

It's been 7 years. Horford next to an undersized PF, no matter how talented...just hasn't worked. We get killed in the paint every post season. Drew actually had some success against bigger Centers by moving AH to PF and having true 7 footers guard the opposing bigs.

It's time to try something else. We really feel confident we can even get past WAS or Brooklyn with this roster? Let alone win against a Western Conference foe?

[MaceCase]

Only thing coming up short are Al's jumpers.

[ATL Boy]

I'll have to go with the consensus here. If Al hits half those wide open jumpers in these past two games then this series would probably be over.


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[Rip2137]

Yeah, this is utter nonsense...Horford is, and never will be a effective player at PF due to his limitations offensively but he could be effective defensively as a PF.

It's been 7 years. Horford next to an undersized PF, no matter how talented...just hasn't worked. We get killed in the paint every post season. Drew actually had some success against bigger Centers by moving AH to PF and having true 7 footers guard the opposing bigs.

It's time to try something else. We really feel confident we can even get past WAS or Brooklyn with this roster? Let alone win against a Western Conference foe?

1: With Drew we made it to the 2nd round and got eliminated in the first round...what sucess is better than the usual results. Yes, sending a platoon of bigs at Howard and moving Horford to the 4 worked against Orlando that one time...we also moved Smith to the 3 and that worked...do you think Smith would have seen long term success playing the 3 in the NBA.

2: Even if you agree with the just of those comments, to ignore a major injury playing a part in Horfords declined offensive production is a little bias.

[Jamaaliver]

1: With Drew we made it to the 2nd round and got eliminated in the first round...what sucess is better than the usual results. Yes, sending a platoon of bigs at Howard and moving Horford to the 4 worked against Orlando that one time...we also moved Smith to the 3 and that worked...do you think Smith would have seen long term success playing the 3 in the NBA.

2: Even if you agree with the just of those comments, to ignore a major injury playing a part in Horfords declined offensive production is a little bias.

Fair points. As always.

1) I would simply say that actually acquiring a decent Center might help more than running out Johan Petro and J Collins as we did during those playoffs. We actually have seen D Ferry attempt to rectify this by pursuing Dwight, Pau, G Monroe in the past two summers. Not to mention drafting Bebe, Tavares and Adreian.

2) I'm talking much longer picture than the last two games. I've been advocating a Center playing next to AL for most of the past decade. I see the defensive struggles against Brooke Lopez this year, against Hibbert in 2013, against Joakim in 2012, against Dwight in 2011 as more than enough of a sample size that in the playoffs...we simply do not have the size or depth to compete against the teams that do.

This is NOT the first or only playoff series that Horford has struggled in.

And, FTR, I'm not blaming our struggles this series on AL. But it'd be nice to have a Center big/strong enough to guard Lopez straight up and to provide even a modicum of dependable offense on the other end of the floor.

[Rip2137]

But Lopez isn't going to the block and scoring. It is floaters and jumpers with the occasional post up move and even then its face up. Most of his offensive boards have even come when we over help and don't block him out.

Horford could not cover Howard...that's true. But he did just fine this year. And Noah is Horfords size, so I don't even get that one.

My point has always been the same though. If you want to get a center, get one to REPLACE Al Horford as he is a tweener that can score against Centers but is only average against them defensively, but can defend PF's but only average against them offensively.

[Jamaaliver]

But Lopez isn't going to the block and scoring. It is floaters and jumpers with the occasional post up move and even then its face up. Most of his offensive boards have even come when we over help and don't block him out.

Horford could not cover Howard...that's true. But he did just fine this year. And Noah is Horfords size, so I don't even get that one.

My point has always been the same though. If you want to get a center, get one to REPLACE Al Horford as he is a tweener that can score against Centers but is only average against them defensively, but can defend PF's but only average against them offensively.

Fair points. For the sake of the thread, I will simply, respectfully, disagree. But seeing us struggle against Brooke, I am even more concerned should we proceed to face Gortat, or Gasol or Mozgov, Or Duncan, or Deandre or Bogut.

[LofJ]

There are a ton of centers hitting free agency this year. Of course that won't help you now, but Ferry is too smart not to take advantage of this fact. Kosta Koufos would be a great fit on your team. Sign him, keep Millsap, and draft Rondae Hollis-Jefferson and you guys will be even better next year.

[Prokorov]

i dont get this criticism. lopez hasnt really played all that well this series. he hasnt dominated the paint and making a parade to the FT line. defensively he has been lost. anytime we got o him 1 on 1 it has mostly been an ungly shot.

pretty much all his offense is coming off feeds from other teammates or from 2nd chance points.

lopez hasnt played close t as well as he has the 6 weeks heading into the playoffs and yestarday was completely shook and almost cost us with how abd he was the second half.

if im gonna criticize AL, its for his offense and settling for some many long 2s

[Jamaaliver]

i dont get this criticism. lopez hasnt really played all that well this series...

If you're telling me that Brook Lopez at his worse is a 20 ppg 10 rpg player in the post season...then WOW!

I want some of that.

[MaceCase]

i dont get this criticism. lopez hasnt really played all that well this series. he hasnt dominated the paint and making a parade to the FT line. defensively he has been lost. anytime we got o him 1 on 1 it has mostly been an ungly shot.

pretty much all his offense is coming off feeds from other teammates or from 2nd chance points.

lopez hasnt played close t as well as he has the 6 weeks heading into the playoffs and yestarday was completely shook and almost cost us with how abd he was the second half.

if im gonna criticize AL, its for his offense and settling for some many long 2s

Because it's confirmation bias for an old agenda. Horford can go 0-50 on wide open jumpers for the rest of the series (can't call it settling, it's his bread and butter) yet some would attempt to frame that as being indicative solely of the size matchup. Just look at how easily the details of how and why both Lopez and Horford are having varying degrees of success in this series is being dismissed. Why bother with analysis when you can just settle for old tropes?

[simon24]

AJC Sports Write Jeff Schultz verbalizes the yearly realization that we feature undersized players in our frontcourt.

This happens pretty much every post season. Some good points in the article:

When an NBA team wins 60 games in the regular season, there is a natural tendency to overlook its liabilities and focus on all of the things it does well...But in many games, like every one in this playoff series against Brooklyn, the team is too small at center.

Al Horford is a great player, all 6-foot-10, 250 pounds of him. If he wasn’t a great player, he wouldn’t be a three-time All-Star...But Horford has struggled in this first-round series against the Nets and their center, Brook Lopez, all 7-foot, 275 pounds of him.

In four games, Horford is avg 13 ppg 9 rpg and is shooting 47 percent from the field.His production has been dwarfed by that of Lopez: 20 ppg 10 rpg and 52.5-percent FG shooting.

It wouldn’t be surprising if Horford has been worn down at the defensive end and that has been affecting him offensively, but he didn’t acknowledge that.

“I’m not sure — we’ve played these guys before and I’ve had some success offensively,” said Horford, who averaged 17.8 points and six rebounds in four regular season games against Brooklyn.

This will continue to be a periodic issue at both ends of the court as long as the Hawks start Horford at center and not power forward, where he seems better suited. But obviously they don’t have another starting center option, although Mike Muscala has showed potential.

Budenholzer and Horford spoke privately on the bench for a few minutes following Sunday’s practice at a gym near the team’s hotel.

“We just talked about how we can move him around and how we can move the defense,” Budenholzer said.
The Hawks are hopeful the adjustments help, because Horford can’t grow two inches on an off day.

This has been an issue, particularly in the playoffs, Horford's entire career. I do think we manage to win the series, but we've seen Horford move to PF next to bums like Johan Petro and Jason Collins and the front court get tougher/stronger as a result. Heck, our last playoff series victory came with Horford playing PF.

Thoughts?
Concerns?
Predictions?
Observations?

They can't pin the team's struggle against Lopez against Al. He's not the only person who plays center, Millsap and Antic also gets minutes at center. Al also plays power forward when Antic is at center.

The way Bud uses Al, having him be more of a jump shooter than a traditional back to the basket big man like Monroe, Hawks can get away with it. Hawks just going to have to do like the Warriors did against AD, make his shots more difficult because you can't shut Lopez down.

[PandaKidd]

Only thing coming up short are Al's jumpers.

I Lulzed.

Rip and Jamaal are both right. If AH is hitting his jumpers, this article doesnt get written and Lopez has to come out of the paint to guard him.

AH can be effective at C. He was for 60+ Games. I think the injury has really hurt him which is why I would rather see him DRIVE THE BASKET now. Get fouled, go at Lopez. Try something different.

Jamaal is also right, we have never TRIED the other way, with AH being a PF with a competent center. Again all the elite teams have a big rim protecting big. CHI/CLE/GSW/LAC/SPURS/MEM/HOU etc. Is AH =/< NOAH/MOZGOV/BOGUT/DJ/DUNCANSPLITTER/GASOL/D12 ? I mean matchup wise? Not talent. IM not saying Mozgov is better than AH.

IF, they dont make it out of this round, the AH at C Experiment to me is OVER. Im done with it. I would let PM walk and sign a Center , which got me wondering......

DJ is up for UFA..... would you go hard after an ELITE rebounding defensive big and move AH to PF? DJ cant shoot, but , neither can Tiaggo Splitter or Bogut or Mozgov or D12 or Noah......

[Rip2137]

No because Horford is a center. Being a undersized Center doesn't make you a power forward. It makes you a undersized Center. He still hasn't displayed a dependable post game and gets by on being quicker and more athletic than the opposing Center. I just don't see shy people think moving him to a position where the opposition would be quicker and more athletic than him in most cases would help. I would move Horford and sign Jordan before I signed Jordan and slid Horford. Sap is a better PF than Horford would be there.

[PandaKidd]

really? List of top PFs

Blake Griffin - 6'10'' 250lbs
LMA - 6'11'' 240lbs
Bosh- 6'11'' 235lbs
Ibaka-6'10'' 245lbs
Duncan-6'11'' 250lbs
AD-6'10'' 220lbs
Dirk- 7'0'' 245lbs

PM 6'8'' 245 lbs ,
AH 6'10'' 250 lbs

I always thought Paul Millsap was an undersized PF and AH was a perfect PF/Undersized Center. AH can play Center because of his size and weight, but his natural position was PF, he played next to Noah right in college.

I alwas thought he was a C by necessity, not by preference

[Jamaaliver]

No because Horford is a center. Being a undersized Center doesn't make you a power forward. It makes you a undersized Center. He still hasn't displayed a dependable post game and gets by on being quicker and more athletic than the opposing Center. I just don't see shy people think moving him to a position where the opposition would be quicker and more athletic than him in most cases would help. I would move Horford and sign Jordan before I signed Jordan and slid Horford. Sap is a better PF than Horford would be there.

So was Karl Malone not a PF just because he didn't have a post game?

[Goudelock]

Like others have said, if Horford was hitting his 15 footers like he usually does, then ATL is preparing to play the Wizards right now.

HOWEVER........I agree with Jamaaliver that getting a competent, taller center would be nice, thus moving Al to the PF spot in certain matchups. You know, someone like Koufos or Splitter.

[MaceCase]

Only thing coming up short are Al's jumpers.

I Lulzed.

Rip and Jamaal are both right. If AH is hitting his jumpers, this article doesnt get written and Lopez has to come out of the paint to guard him.

AH can be effective at C. He was for 60+ Games. I think the injury has really hurt him which is why I would rather see him DRIVE THE BASKET now. Get fouled, go at Lopez. Try something different.

Jamaal is also right, we have never TRIED the other way, with AH being a PF with a competent center. Again all the elite teams have a big rim protecting big. CHI/CLE/GSW/LAC/SPURS/MEM/HOU etc. Is AH =/< NOAH/MOZGOV/BOGUT/DJ/DUNCANSPLITTER/GASOL/D12 ? I mean matchup wise? Not talent. IM not saying Mozgov is better than AH.

IF, they dont make it out of this round, the AH at C Experiment to me is OVER. Im done with it. I would let PM walk and sign a Center , which got me wondering......

DJ is up for UFA..... would you go hard after an ELITE rebounding defensive big and move AH to PF? DJ cant shoot, but , neither can Tiaggo Splitter or Bogut or Mozgov or D12 or Noah......

It's not an experiment, it's just the fact of Al's skill level. If he simply was a better player you would consider moving him to PF being a priority but that just isn't and has never been the case. He's shown to be a better player than what he is because of the fact that playing C gives him more advantages than it does disadvantages. I mean, you still have people believing that playing Center is the reason why Al hasn't become the 2nd leading scorer in NBA history.......really now, I thought only #1pick or NBASuperstar was crazy enough to ever make that ridiculous Karl Malone comparison.

Guys like LMA, Anthony Davis, Chris Webber, etc. they all hate playing C but they were all still able to magically put up 20-10 seasons regardless of being predominantly at C. Al Horford without the ability, as you stated, to drive into the paint against someone as slow as Lopez is somehow going to do it against faster players? You listed the heights and weights of most of the elite PFs, where is the dominating physical height and weight advantage that Al has over them? Isn't he supposed to be Shaq against PFs but Chuck Hayes against Cs?

The fact is that Al is more Amir Johnson than Karl Malone at PF. You only stand to improve defensively while trading away everything you gained there for the loss in offense. You sign a guy like DJ and you better bring Durant and Westbrook along with him because now you're relying even more on Jeff Teague and/or Demarre becoming big time scorers to offset no one in the frontcourt being able to create their own offense. With the team's current talent level you're only building a poor man's Toronto Raptors.