Kessler is ahead of Gobert at the same stage on defense. It's hard to hate on Kessler. He's a top 15 center. Ahead of both Mark Williams and Jalen Duren aTm.
Clingan makes sense as a top 10 pick to me. Especially if you are a team that's caters to drop defenders.
When you are a drop defender, I just want to know 5 things
Do you have size, athleticism for your size, can you rim and paint protect, are you instinctive, and can you get defensive rebounds at a high rate? If the answer is yes, you qualify for me.
Edey, Kessler, and Clingan are all in the same range for me as prospects. All are drop coverage guys. Kessler is elite on D as a drop guy. Clingan is excellent. Edey is good.
Offensively as movement bigs, Edey is elite. Clingan is excellent. Kessler is good.
Just depends on how you play and what you need. Many teams don't use drop coverage centers. Some like to be switchable at all times. So these three aren't for everyone.
All three are capable of being drop defenders having the ability to rim and paint protect, rebound, instinctive defenders, and are athletic for their size.
All three are movement bigs. Edey being vastly superior offensively. Clingan doing what is needed but just lacking some of the mental acuity needed to be elite. Kessler lacking even more than that but he's good enough to be effective.
King Ken wrote:Edey, Kessler, and Clingan are all in the same range for me as prospects. All are drop coverage guys. Kessler is elite on D as a drop guy. Clingan is excellent. Edey is good.
Offensively as movement bigs, Edey is elite. Clingan is excellent. Kessler is good.
Just depends on how you play and what you need. Many teams don't use drop coverage centers. Some like to be switchable at all times. So these three aren't for everyone.
All three are capable of being drop defenders having the ability to rim and paint protect, rebound, instinctive defenders, and are athletic for their size.
All three are movement bigs. Edey being vastly superior offensively. Clingan doing what is needed but just lacking some of the mental acuity needed to be elite. Kessler lacking even more than that but he's good enough to be effective.
That comparaison makes Edey look real good especially when you consider his late FRP, early SRP prospect
King Ken wrote:Edey, Kessler, and Clingan are all in the same range for me as prospects. All are drop coverage guys. Kessler is elite on D as a drop guy. Clingan is excellent. Edey is good.
Offensively as movement bigs, Edey is elite. Clingan is excellent. Kessler is good.
Just depends on how you play and what you need. Many teams don't use drop coverage centers. Some like to be switchable at all times. So these three aren't for everyone.
All three are capable of being drop defenders having the ability to rim and paint protect, rebound, instinctive defenders, and are athletic for their size.
All three are movement bigs. Edey being vastly superior offensively. Clingan doing what is needed but just lacking some of the mental acuity needed to be elite. Kessler lacking even more than that but he's good enough to be effective.
That comparaison makes Edey look real good especially when you consider his late FRP, early SRP prospect
Edey is the most polarizing prospect in all of sports with Lamar Jackson out of college in his draft class.
Players as elite as Jackson and Edey shouldn't be questioned but are and it makes no sense.
I was on ESPN and saw Mel Kiper talking about the QB class and he said that Lamar should be converted to WR and I wanted to throw a remote at my TV. Clearly doesn't watch the tape. I agree, I'm ok with people that prefer some of the top guys over others but the WR thing is just pure ignorance.
Kiper also said that Lamar is a 4th round grade QB as well. I remember that **** like yesterday.
Note: Baker Mayfield was my #1 qb that entire year. Lamar was #2 but I always had Lamar having the most upside with Josh Allen at #3.
tbhawksfan1 wrote:Would you prefer Ware at SAC pick or Edey at say #30?
Hmmmm
Spoiler:
Ware is more of a sure thing because of his rim protection and 3-pt shooting.
Edey is a pure gamble who could be gamechanger in one playoff series (vs Miami or Philly) and then completely played off the floor in another (vs Indiana or Boston).
Ware can fit any lineup or roster.
Edey only really works on a team of shooters and alongside an elite playmaker.
I'd probably lean more towards Ware because he provides value for us on the court -- and he can be an attractive trade piece down the line.
Cause if we waste a 1st round pick on Edey, he doesn't pan out, and then Trae leaves a year later...that could go down as an Adreian Payne-level waste of a draft pick.
tbhawksfan1 wrote:Would you prefer Ware at SAC pick or Edey at say #30?
Hmmmm
Spoiler:
Ware is more of a sure thing because of his rim protection and 3-pt shooting.
Edey is a pure gamble who could be gamechanger in one playoff series (vs Miami or Philly) and then completely played off the floor in another (vs Indiana or Boston).
Ware can fit any lineup or roster.
Edey only really works on a team of shooters and alongside an elite playmaker.
I'd probably lean more towards Ware because he provides value for us on the court -- and he can be an attractive trade piece down the line.
Cause if we waste a 1st round pick on Edey, he doesn't pan out, and then Trae leaves a year later...that could go down as an Adreian Payne-level waste of a draft pick.
I think you have pretty much summed up my concerns on the Edey pick.
tbhawksfan1 wrote:Would you prefer Ware at SAC pick or Edey at say #30?
Hmmmm
Spoiler:
Ware is more of a sure thing because of his rim protection and 3-pt shooting.
Edey is a pure gamble who could be gamechanger in one playoff series (vs Miami or Philly) and then completely played off the floor in another (vs Indiana or Boston).
Ware can fit any lineup or roster.
Edey only really works on a team of shooters and alongside an elite playmaker.
I'd probably lean more towards Ware because he provides value for us on the court -- and he can be an attractive trade piece down the line.
Cause if we waste a 1st round pick on Edey, he doesn't pan out, and then Trae leaves a year later...that could go down as an Adreian Payne-level waste of a draft pick.
I strongly disagree with this post
Ware is not a good player right now. He's decent so this idea that he's Derrick Lively with more polish is absolutely wild to me. Lively was one of the most impressive modern defenders in enter in years. Ware has a myriad of issues like effort, motor, health, consistency that Lively just didn't have. Now Ware is a clearly better offensive player than Lively but Lively is better at big man actions like screening. Ware shooting and post play is obviously better but does that really matter if teams value screens more from a 5.
Saying Ware is more of a sure thing is flat out odd. How?
I agree with the better fit. He's a modern NBA defensive 5, Edey is a drop coverage 5, that's an obvious statement but Ware is fat from a sure thing. I am almost certain teams that don't value drop coverage 5s aren't drafting Edey in the first place.
Your not playing Edey off the floor in any series. When are high feel, BBIQ, and awareness guys played off the floor? Not saying it doesn't happen but it's really difficult to do so because they adjust on the fly mentally. I really don't think ya'll watched Purdue this year with takes like this.
Then the Payne take, you might as well go to my dark side. No one i hated more than Shelden then the Payne pick. Payne was ass and was always ass and i hated that pick. Whereas, Edey can be a fukking star. I don't even see how you can't see the difference. It's obvious when you watch the game film. It's obvious af.
Let's just say, we are on opposite sides on this. I would literally take Edey as high as possible for the Hawks. I wouldn't draft Payne or Shelden unless it was in the 2nd round.
The takes on Edey from some of ya'll just don't make any sense. It doesn't match the data or the facts. It's just a feel thing. It's not backed up by truth. If we look at facts and truth, it would be obvious Edey is the no brainer prospect.
Edey name generates some of the worst takes I've heard. It's getting to LeBron level of idiocy. He's just big. LeCrabDribble, LeBalco, he just runs over everyone, he got no skill.
This is what I wrote the night we drafted Payne on our community board
Marcus Fizer 2.0
Their scouting report is similar. Measurements similar. Traits similar. Fizer was stronger and younger while Payne has better work ethic and more range.
He wasn't even as good as Fizer. I hated this pick with a passion. I honestly didn't even think he was as good as Fizer personally. I was just trying to be positive in a moment of anger and rage.
Edey has the opposite effect of Payne. With Payne, we needed to move asap. We Edey, he's gonna change our franchise, asap in a positive manner.
Let's compare the only complete big man movement big to enter the NBA draft to a low BBIQ, poor feel for the game PF who wasn't even good in college. Give me a better baseline than this trash, no disrespect Adreian and RIP to you as well.
Saying Ware is more of a sure thing is flat out odd. How?
King Ken wrote:Your not playing Edey off the floor in any series. When are high feel, BBIQ, and awareness guys played off the floor? Not saying it doesn't happen but it's really difficult to do so because they adjust on the fly mentally
1. Noted.
I always appreciate, well articulated, impassioned contributions on player evals...even if they're completely wrong.
2. Rudy Gobert is a 3x DPOY and surefire future Hall of Famer. And he got played of the floor in the postseason...a lot. Teams would go small, space the floor and get him in mismatches against elite perimeter scorers (Steph, Harden, Luka) where his rim protection could be negated because of poor lateral movement.
I suspect Quin would attempt to play Edey a lot like Gobert on defense. And I predict teams would similarly space the floor and let top perimeter players like Tatum, Haliburton, Maxey, Brunson, Lillard pick him apart in space.
This doesn't even mention the fact that teams would simply push the pace in transition to attack the rim before he could even get back on defense. Giannis in particular would dominate fast breaks with Edey barely crossing halfcourt.
NOTE: Edey is a much more competent offensive player than Gobert. So, he could at least abuse mismatches.
Additionally, Edey has played against NBA players during his time in international ball. The results have been...mixed.
Canada chose to play zone to keep him from getting abused in PnRs.
Chet Holmgren regularly outran Edey full court for easy dunks. Often.
When it comes to movement players, it's a revolution
1. You got Reggie Miller/Rip Hamilton. - Both excelled at long movement but Reggie was more around the 3 whereas RIP around the elbow. Then you had the C&S guys like JJ, Allen Crabbe, even some bigs like Anderson and Bertans who ran actions to free up their side on one side of the court. This isn't ran much anymore in today's NBA.
That evolved into Steph. Who used the elbow but mainly 3 and he was the first to add speed as an element. Steph also added ball handling and shot creations into the mix which made him an impossible cover. Plus range which added another element.
2. Klay/Korver- they used both the long movement and short movement. They also excelled at backdoor cuts and flairs. They modernized movement.
3. One of my favorite is DeMarre Carroll. He could do perimeter and big man movement actions which was unheard of any no one since has been able to do it. Carroll biggest mistake is leaving Atlanta where that role was valued under Bud.
4. Shaq added the low post movement which is mainly due to him getting out of shape and not having the same quickness he used to have so he added feel into his positioning. Even though Shaq could be lazy on D, he used his motor on offense and was the first player we seen use this as a weapon and it helped as zone defenses made it where you can throw every type of coverage on Shaq to nerf him. We haven't seen anyone since with this outside of Edey. My guess is motor, size, strength, and feel for the game is critical for this movement package and most bigs just don't got it.
5. Malone/Amare/Capela/JC/Horford - the movement big. Elite screen setters or bigs who slip screens. I used three Hawks since we are familiar with them. These are rollers who either slip, screen, fake the screen to give leverage to the PnR ball handler. This is general what we consider modern movement for a big man and its seen as critical to have in today's NBA which is heavily PnR based.
If you don't understand movement, then you are bound to say some really stupid stuff
Saying Ware is more of a sure thing is flat out odd. How?
King Ken wrote:Your not playing Edey off the floor in any series. When are high feel, BBIQ, and awareness guys played off the floor? Not saying it doesn't happen but it's really difficult to do so because they adjust on the fly mentally
1. Noted.
I always appreciate, well articulated, impassioned contributions on player evals...even if they're completely wrong.
2. Rudy Gobert is a 3x DPOY and surefire future Hall of Famer. And he got played of the floor in the postseason...a lot. Teams would go small, space the floor and get him in mismatches against elite perimeter scorers (Steph, Harden, Luka) where his rim protection could be negated because of poor lateral movement.
I suspect Quin would attempt to play Edey a lot like Gobert on defense. And I predict teams would similarly space the floor and let top perimeter players like Tatum, Haliburton, Maxey, Brunson, Lillard pick him apart in space.
This doesn't even mention the fact that teams would simply push the pace in transition to attack the rim before he could even get back on defense. Giannis in particular would dominate fast breaks with Edey barely crossing halfcourt.
NOTE: Edey is a much more competent offensive player than Gobert. So, he could at least abuse mismatches.
Additionally, Edey has played against NBA players during his time in international ball. The results have been...mixed.
Canada chose to play zone to keep him from getting abused in PnRs.
Chet Holmgren regularly outran Edey full court for easy dunks. Often.
1. Thanks but if it's wrong, we would have the data to prove it or at least the film and it's consistent.
2. I don't recall more than one game Rudy got played off the floor and even then, he was still there. The issue that game was Conley was out and Mitchell who barely passed the ball to him that season was the PG. So guess what LA did. They exposed that. Let's be honest, that would have never happened if Conley was playing game 7 against the Clippers. Even with the Wolves, Conley on/off numbers are off the charts.
Going small against Edey is a massive mistake if Trae is our PG. That's basically giving up a basket every single possession and everyone will be wide open. Teams all year have tried to get Edey on the perimeter all year and he's done a good job. Coleman from Illinois and a number of other attackers have tried to take him off the dribble and have found it difficult as he moves his feet well for his size. He can get a tad off balance when someone hits him with a good combination but he's not someone that's easy to take off the dribble as he's athletic for his size and he's 7'4 with a 7'10.5 wingspan. I truly believe people don't realize how athletic Edey is. His is a guy who has a better lane agility than Kobe Bufkin and GG Jackson
Edey will have to sprint in transition in the NBA but he's capable and he's as fast as KD. It's not like he can't move in a straight line, he just has to make sure he sprints in transition instead of playing at the same pace he always plays at. That can be taught. Jokic used to have this issue and he fixed it. Remember Houston had young Capela sprinting every possession to beat him up the floor. Jokic fixed that. It just takes a change in mentality. The ability is there.
He was getting abused for poor closeouts v. The US for Canada. He was pretty much bad this game. That's a fact. He was good against Serbia in both the world cup and u21
Yeah, I think you are missing on a gem and put him around Trae and we have two perennial MVP candidates and never another season below 50 wins for nearly another decade.
King Ken wrote:1. Thanks but if it's wrong, we would have the data to prove it or at least the film and it's consistent.
2. I don't recall more than one game Rudy got played off the floor and even then, he was still there. The issue that game was Conley was out and Mitchell who barely passed the ball to him that season was the PG. So guess what LA did. They exposed that. Let's be honest, that would have never happened if Conley was playing game 7 against the Clippers. Even with the Wolves, Conley on/off numbers are off the charts.
Yeah, I think you are missing on a gem and put him around Trae and we have two perennial MVP candidates and never another season below 50 wins for nearly another decade.
I'm actually a supporter of drafting Zach Edey. If he hits as a player, he can be a gamechanger. Especially in the regular season when teams don't have the time/personnel to scheme for him.
I just have to acknowledge that he is an imperfect prospect and will struggle with faster, jump shooting bigs.
There is a reason his teams have struggled so much in the NCAA tournament the past few years.
Boston's 5-out lineups in particular will negate any advantage Edey provides when they are hitting their threes.
It’s been almost seven years since Curry had Gobert drilling his own pit of captivity in the playoffs. Gobert, one of the defining defensive players of a generation, has yet to shake the prevailing notion that his walling defense, so impenetrable in the regular season, can be exploited in a best-of-seven series. He has consistently been a target for players who can repeatedly force him to move his feet on the perimeter.
The NBA has been trending toward small ball for a long time. Gobert, the reigning Defensive Player of the Year, has improved as a perimeter defender, but he will never be as agile as a smaller center like Capela. Jazz head coach Quin Snyder has dug deep into his bag of tricks to keep Gobert closer to the rim. It’s a strategy with no margin for error...The Jazz are swimming against the tide. Bigger teams almost never beat small-ball teams in the playoffs anymore. Utah has spent the past three seasons trying and failing to crack the code.[/size=117]
Every team in the NBA understands the inherent weaknesses that Gobert affixes to team defense, but they rear an ugly head only when a team is talented enough to take him out of his comfort zone without giving up any clear advantage on the opposite side of the ball. [size=117]The Warriors played a five-out lineup without a traditional center for roughly 31 of the 192 minutes in the series, but nearly every other lineup they trotted out had at least four shooters on the floor; the Warriors always had the sets and personnel to keep the Jazz on their toes. Two games were played at Utah’s pace, two games were played at Golden State’s. It hardly mattered. The Jazz lost by an average of 15 points over the four games.
The Rockets—who have established themselves as 1B in the league hierarchy this season—have taken the Warriors model and gone in the opposite direction: They will exploit the biggest advantages they have on the basis that most teams don’t have the horses to stop them...in a low-possession game in which the Rockets won by 11, the Jazz had the biggest lead of the night (15) in the first half. Everything was turned upside down in the second half, when former Rockets Coach Mike D’Antoni eschewed his big men for huge chunks of the game.
The lineup that ruined the Jazz that particular night? Harden and Paul surrounded by Joe Johnson, Trevor Ariza, and Luc Mbah a Moute. Together, the cabal of perimeter-oriented players no taller than 6-foot-8 ran a clinic on how to take Gobert out of the game.[spoiler]
At their best, the Jazz are completely beholden to Gobert’s influence.
At their worst, they are also completely beholden to Gobert’s influence. What happens when a playoff team can routinely exploit Gobert on the perimeter? He is too central to the entire team’s operations to sit out, but he’s also too ill-equipped to handle five-out lineups regularly.
King Ken wrote:1. Thanks but if it's wrong, we would have the data to prove it or at least the film and it's consistent.
2. I don't recall more than one game Rudy got played off the floor and even then, he was still there. The issue that game was Conley was out and Mitchell who barely passed the ball to him that season was the PG. So guess what LA did. They exposed that. Let's be honest, that would have never happened if Conley was playing game 7 against the Clippers. Even with the Wolves, Conley on/off numbers are off the charts.
Yeah, I think you are missing on a gem and put him around Trae and we have two perennial MVP candidates and never another season below 50 wins for nearly another decade.
I'm actually a supporter of drafting Zach Edey. If he hits as a player, he can be a gamechanger. Especially in the regular season when teams don't have the time/personnel to scheme for him.
I just have to acknowledge that he is an imperfect prospect and will struggle with faster, jump shooting bigs.
There is a reason his teams have struggled so much in the NCAA tournament the past few years.
Boston's 5-out lineups in particular will negate any advantage Edey provides when they are hitting their threes.
It’s been almost seven years since Curry had Gobert drilling his own pit of captivity in the playoffs. Gobert, one of the defining defensive players of a generation, has yet to shake the prevailing notion that his walling defense, so impenetrable in the regular season, can be exploited in a best-of-seven series. He has consistently been a target for players who can repeatedly force him to move his feet on the perimeter.
The NBA has been trending toward small ball for a long time. Gobert, the reigning Defensive Player of the Year, has improved as a perimeter defender, but he will never be as agile as a smaller center like Capela. Jazz head coach Quin Snyder has dug deep into his bag of tricks to keep Gobert closer to the rim. It’s a strategy with no margin for error...The Jazz are swimming against the tide. Bigger teams almost never beat small-ball teams in the playoffs anymore. Utah has spent the past three seasons trying and failing to crack the code.[/size=117]
Every team in the NBA understands the inherent weaknesses that Gobert affixes to team defense, but they rear an ugly head only when a team is talented enough to take him out of his comfort zone without giving up any clear advantage on the opposite side of the ball. [size=117]The Warriors played a five-out lineup without a traditional center for roughly 31 of the 192 minutes in the series, but nearly every other lineup they trotted out had at least four shooters on the floor; the Warriors always had the sets and personnel to keep the Jazz on their toes. Two games were played at Utah’s pace, two games were played at Golden State’s. It hardly mattered. The Jazz lost by an average of 15 points over the four games.
The Rockets—who have established themselves as 1B in the league hierarchy this season—have taken the Warriors model and gone in the opposite direction: They will exploit the biggest advantages they have on the basis that most teams don’t have the horses to stop them...in a low-possession game in which the Rockets won by 11, the Jazz had the biggest lead of the night (15) in the first half. Everything was turned upside down in the second half, when former Rockets Coach Mike D’Antoni eschewed his big men for huge chunks of the game.
The lineup that ruined the Jazz that particular night? Harden and Paul surrounded by Joe Johnson, Trevor Ariza, and Luc Mbah a Moute. [color=#0000FF][size=119]Together, the cabal of perimeter-oriented players no taller than 6-foot-8 ran a clinic on how to take Gobert out of
At their best, the Jazz are completely beholden to Gobert’s influence.
At their worst, they are also completely beholden to Gobert’s influence. What happens when a playoff team can routinely exploit Gobert on the perimeter? He is too central to the entire team’s operations to sit out, but he’s also too ill-equipped to handle five-out lineups regularly.
Even though you hide a good bit of the post, it's a lot to cover.
Hard for me to believe you are an Edey advocate when you say Ware is more of a sure thing and then name drop Adreian Payne in comparison to Edey. Thats not the comments of any advocate. Not even close. If he hits he's a game changer. Other than Sheppard or Sarr for some, can you sat that about anyone else in this class? You can say that about Edey and that's why I said, you need to pay more attention to Edey.
He may struggle. He has struggled in one of their losses to Nebraska for that reason but he played a better NBA prospect in Coleman and did exceptionally well. Maybe it's not the forgone conclusion you may think it is. I just watched his game against the USA. It wasn't just terrible on his end. This is what happens when you put him on the floor with no real plan in how to use him. He was essentially just there to be there. That's not how you want to use Edey. Even then, he wasn't moving poorly. Portis was moving less than he was. Edey was our there burning calories. They had him involved in no actions. He's a movement guy, that's poor use.
You gotta deal with Edey movement as a big and you gotta deal with his low post movement which is relentless. That's not easy to deal with either for Boston and let's say he's a Hawks. This is what Boston already has to deal with.
