Welcome to Boston, Jaden Springer!

[Hal14]

Isn’t his problem that the ball doesn’t go in often enough?

I'm not positive but I think he was talking about Brogdon when he said that.

[Smart2Nesmith43]

I would have rather kept the Bulls pick somewhere in the 40’s.

Why ? So they can have three years from now a player that's where Springer is at currently in his development ? The Celtics rotation seems pretty locked in for the next couple years but they'll need guys that can contribute soon-ish and Springer in year 5
has a much better chance than some random mid second round pick in year 2.

With the second apron rules being so restrictive in terms of trade, the flexibility of having any kind of salary that you can actually trade without touching your rotation is arguably more valuable than the pick itself.

Besides they already have the Dallas pick in that range so they can still pick up anybody they like in that area of the draft.

[CelticsPride18]

4 assists in 22 minutes. It took Jaylen 6 years for his first 3+ assist game.

[jfs1000d]

Guys. Brad did not have time to make this trade. He wanted Springs, and he did it knowing that kid won’t play. He is going to pick up the option. And sign an Aaron Nesmith -like deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sam_I_am]

Guys. Brad did not have time to make this trade. He wanted Springs, and he did it knowing that kid won’t play. He is going to pick up the option. And sign an Aaron Nesmith -like deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don’t mind the idea of developing him but I like it better on a Jordan Walsh type contract. Maybe we don’t keep PP or Holiday. I was intrigued when they signed him but he doesn’t look good enough to keep at $4 million, let alone $11 million Nesmith makes.

[Parliament10]

Guys. Brad did not have time to make this trade. He wanted Springs, and he did it knowing that kid won’t play. He is going to pick up the option. And sign an Aaron Nesmith -like deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don’t mind the idea of developing him but I like it better on a Jordan Walsh type contract. Maybe we don’t keep PP or Holiday. I was intrigued when they signed him but he doesn’t look good enough to keep at $4 million, let alone $11 million Nesmith makes.

Trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. His Defense looks good.
But, this is his 3rd year. I'm thinking, that he's not going to improve too much?

[24istheLAW]

I don’t see any scenario where the Celtics pay this guy $4 million going forward. He looks to be 2-3 years away from helping this team. Trading his $4 million for a veteran ready to give playoff minutes next year is just a no-brainer.

Yeah. If there were some sign of life from him as a P&R ballhandler, you'd say fine, we can live with the lack of a shot, just chase the ball around. But it doesn't look like he has any halfcourt offensive game at all. And his size isn't screaming wing stopper either. Offensive black hole + lack of size on the defensive end is a tough way to make an NBA living.

[Hal14]

Guys. Brad did not have time to make this trade. He wanted Springs, and he did it knowing that kid won’t play. He is going to pick up the option. And sign an Aaron Nesmith -like deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don’t mind the idea of developing him but I like it better on a Jordan Walsh type contract. Maybe we don’t keep PP or Holiday. I was intrigued when they signed him but he doesn’t look good enough to keep at $4 million, let alone $11 million Nesmith makes.

$4 mil is nothing in today's NBA. Especially with the way the cap keeps going up and up..

[sam_I_am]

Guys. Brad did not have time to make this trade. He wanted Springs, and he did it knowing that kid won’t play. He is going to pick up the option. And sign an Aaron Nesmith -like deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don’t mind the idea of developing him but I like it better on a Jordan Walsh type contract. Maybe we don’t keep PP or Holiday. I was intrigued when they signed him but he doesn’t look good enough to keep at $4 million, let alone $11 million Nesmith makes.

$4 mil is nothing in today's NBA. Especially with the way the cap keeps going up and up..

I mean….that’s just not true. Look at our roster. Outside of the ‘starting 6’, only PP makes more than 2 million and he only makes 4 million. Banton and Stevens each made 2 million and they showed a lot more to me than Springer has so far ….. although I understand but you can allow for age and upside in case of Springer.

When you are stretching $17 million to pay 9 players……$4 mil on a g-leaguer is too much IMO.

I think Springer’s value to this team is that they get to see up close if he has what it takes to be better and if not…..his bump in salary gives Brad trade ballast. I can only see how he looks in garbage time but based on that I’m ready to move on already.

[Homerclease]

I don’t mind the idea of developing him but I like it better on a Jordan Walsh type contract. Maybe we don’t keep PP or Holiday. I was intrigued when they signed him but he doesn’t look good enough to keep at $4 million, let alone $11 million Nesmith makes.

$4 mil is nothing in today's NBA. Especially with the way the cap keeps going up and up..

I mean….that’s just not true. Look at our roster. Outside of the ‘starting 6’, only PP makes more than 2 million and he only makes 4 million. Banton and Stevens each made 2 million and they showed a lot more to me than Springer has so far ….. although I understand but you can allow for age and upside in case of Springer.

When you are stretching $17 million to pay 9 players……$4 mil on a g-leaguer is too much IMO.

I think Springer’s value to this team is that they get to see up close if he has what it takes to be better and if not…..his bump in salary gives Brad trade ballast. I can only see how he looks in garbage time but based on that I’m ready to move on already.

It’s not too much, because they got him with the TPE. It was either let the TPE expire or buy a scratch ticket. Given their limited number of ways to add to the team, the juice is worth the squeeze as long as ownership is fine paying the tax bill

[Hal14]

I don’t mind the idea of developing him but I like it better on a Jordan Walsh type contract. Maybe we don’t keep PP or Holiday. I was intrigued when they signed him but he doesn’t look good enough to keep at $4 million, let alone $11 million Nesmith makes.

$4 mil is nothing in today's NBA. Especially with the way the cap keeps going up and up..

I mean….that’s just not true. Look at our roster. Outside of the ‘starting 6’, only PP makes more than 2 million and he only makes 4 million.

I can only see how he looks in garbage time but based on that I’m ready to move on already.

My point was, the difference between $4 mil and $2 mil (which is about what a minimum contract is) is basically nothing. It's splitting hairs.

Especially with the way the cap keeps going up - $2 mil now basically is $4 mil tomorrow..

And especially since ownership has made it clear they are going all in to maximize this 6 year title window we have (Wyc's words). And also Wyc's words that they know they're over the 2nd apron and they don't really care. so I really don't think they care about the small difference between $2 mil and $4 mil..especially for a player who according to Brad, "is an athlete who can play athletically in the playoffs" and is a guy our front office have liked and had their eye on since the draft 3 yrs ago.

Also, it's silly imo to evaluate a player based only on garbage time.

[Parliament10]

$4 mil is nothing in today's NBA. Especially with the way the cap keeps going up and up..

I mean….that’s just not true. Look at our roster. Outside of the ‘starting 6’, only PP makes more than 2 million and he only makes 4 million. Banton and Stevens each made 2 million and they showed a lot more to me than Springer has so far ….. although I understand but you can allow for age and upside in case of Springer.

When you are stretching $17 million to pay 9 players……$4 mil on a g-leaguer is too much IMO.

I think Springer’s value to this team is that they get to see up close if he has what it takes to be better and if not…..his bump in salary gives Brad trade ballast. I can only see how he looks in garbage time but based on that I’m ready to move on already.

It’s not too much, because they got him with the TPE. It was either let the TPE expire or buy a scratch ticket. Given their limited number of ways to add to the team, the juice is worth the squeeze as long as ownership is fine paying the tax bill

Springer is getting $4M next year.
He's not worth it; not worth more than all those players (half the Team). IJS

[Hal14]

Yeah. If there were some sign of life from him as a P&R ballhandler, you'd say fine, we can live with the lack of a shot, just chase the ball around. But it doesn't look like he has any halfcourt offensive game at all. And his size isn't screaming wing stopper either. Offensive black hole + lack of size on the defensive end is a tough way to make an NBA living.

That seems a bit harsh.

He clearly made a positive impact in last night's game.

And he's only 21 yrs old, still getting used to a new team.

Let's look at some other guys in this archetype:

Bruce Brown - has never really been much of a shooting threat (shot 25% from 3 as a rookie at age 22) or much of a threat offensively in the half court. Just been a really good defender who can switch defensively, plays hard, plays smart, plays tough. Glue guy. Plays unselfish, hustles, moves the ball, brings energy, grabs some boards, cuts to the basket..and was the 6th man for the team that won the title last year at age 26.

Avery Bradley - didn't develop a consistent jump shot till his age 23 season

Tony Allen - 28% career shooter from 3. Was ok at times as a slasher going to the basket. But he was an elite defender, he was tough, he hustled, he was athletic and had himself a really solid NBA career

Gary Payton II - has never really been much of a threat in half court offense. Yet he's been a solid role player..played a key role as like the 8th man for the warriors when they won the 2022 title - with his gritty defense, toughness, hustle, energy and some rebounds, some cutting on offense..

Alex Caruso - Only shot 33% from 3 (27% in the playoffs) in the 19-20 season, but was a key player for the Lakers, helping them win the title

Derrick White - came into the NBA at age 23 and his spent most of that 1st season in the G League. For all we know, he would have looked a lot like Springer does now if was in the NBA at age 21.

Jalen Suggs - he's about a year older than Springer. Right now, in his age 22 season, he's just now starting to hit jump shots, after struggling his first 2 seasons from deep.

Patrick Beverley - didn't come to the NBA till age 24. If he came to the NBA at age 21 (like Springer is now), he may have looked quite a bit like Springer does now - except smaller

Marcus Smart - didn't really start hitting 3's until his age 24 season. But his first couple NBA seasons he looked quite a bit like Springer does now. And his college film looks a bit like Springer's college film

Deanthony Melton - doesn't have great size. Not a PG. Tough defender. Didn't develop a decent jumper till his age 22 season. Before that he shot 30% and 28% from 3 in his first 2 seasons at age 20 and 21.

Kris Dunn - has struggled with shooting for most of his career but has still been a solid player, thanks mostly to his defense. His career would've been even better than it's been, but he's had lots of injuries. Didn't shoot it decently in the NBA till his age 24 season.

Dennis Smith Jr - hasn't been a very good shooter during his career. Hasn't been much of a weapon in half court offense. But he's carved out a nice role in the league as a backup guard due to his defense, hustle, energy and athleticism.

Jose Alvarado - limited on offense, limited as a shooter (well below league average from this until this season at age 25) but has carved out a role as a solid contribute with his defense, hustle, energy

Davion Mitchell - hasn't been a good shooter in the NBA but has been a solid guard off the bench for the Kings due to his defense, hustle, energy

Again, Springer is only 21. The players listed above in this post - none of them were good shooters (or really did much of anything in halfcourt offense at the NBA level) during their age 21 season.

Guys typically don't peak until around age 27-29. They typically keep improving until then, with the most rapid development happening between age 18-23. So Springer right now is in a period where he is likely improving quite a bit - this summer (and training camp) could be big for him in terms of development, especially since it'll be his first offseason/training camp with Boston. I hesitate to form any conclusive opinions about how good he is or how good he will be for Boston until then..

[Dogen]

Isn’t his problem that the ball doesn’t go in often enough?

I'm not positive but I think he was talking about Brogdon when he said that.

Yes, I was talking about Brogdon. Springer's shot looks a bit like Brogdon's ...but doesn't go in. He'll get better at it.

I'm irresponsibly bullish on Springer though. The two plays at Detroit with he and Walsh assisting each other were season highlights for me. I hope we see more of them on the court together in the next 15 games, even if just in 4th quarter blowouts.

[Dogen]

I don’t see any scenario where the Celtics pay this guy $4 million going forward. He looks to be 2-3 years away from helping this team. Trading his $4 million for a veteran ready to give playoff minutes next year is just a no-brainer.

Yeah. If there were some sign of life from him as a P&R ballhandler, you'd say fine, we can live with the lack of a shot, just chase the ball around. But it doesn't look like he has any halfcourt offensive game at all. And his size isn't screaming wing stopper either. Offensive black hole + lack of size on the defensive end is a tough way to make an NBA living.

Springer and Walsh were defending James Wiseman at times. And wing stopper is exactly Springer's calling card so far. He is strong with quick hands and gets up quickly. Marcus-like.

The rest of your take is legit. Poor 3pt shot, and no halfcourt game to speak of -- that's a tough spot for a perimeter player on a team that lives a lot from 3 point shots in half court.

But he's only been with the team for a month. If he stay healthy, works over the summer and has a full camp, maybe we won't see him camped out in the corner on offense with his hands in his pocket. That's all he can do now, is get out of the way. But it means he's really only out there for defense and the occasional fast break. The coaches will spend time getting him acclimated to the offensive sets next year. He's got ball handling skills, we'll see them soon enough.

[Homerclease]

I mean….that’s just not true. Look at our roster. Outside of the ‘starting 6’, only PP makes more than 2 million and he only makes 4 million. Banton and Stevens each made 2 million and they showed a lot more to me than Springer has so far ….. although I understand but you can allow for age and upside in case of Springer.

When you are stretching $17 million to pay 9 players……$4 mil on a g-leaguer is too much IMO.

I think Springer’s value to this team is that they get to see up close if he has what it takes to be better and if not…..his bump in salary gives Brad trade ballast. I can only see how he looks in garbage time but based on that I’m ready to move on already.

It’s not too much, because they got him with the TPE. It was either let the TPE expire or buy a scratch ticket. Given their limited number of ways to add to the team, the juice is worth the squeeze as long as ownership is fine paying the tax bill

Springer is getting $4M next year.
He's not worth it; not worth more than all those players (half the Team). IJS

Makes zero sense. They can’t just add another player at Springers salary slot. No taxpayer MLE available because we are above the second apron. All you’d be doing is saving on a luxury tax bill.

[cl2117]

I agree with Homerclease that the best way to look at Springer is as a TPE scratch ticket.

I honestly think that if we had kept the Bulls 2nd (projected at #42) and traded the Dallas 2nd (projected at #48) people would be more bullish on the trade (and I include myself in that). Which is kind of ridiculous considering there are only 5 picks separating those two in the 2024 draft, but the optics would be better.

He's most likely a "2nd draft"/"2nd contract" type of player, so I don't think it's wise to have any significant expectations for him this year or next. Shooting is the single hardest skillset to develop in basketball in my opinion, so I'm always wary of guys whose potential hinges on getting better in that area. Most never are able to make enough strides.

I do think it really bodes well for him though that both Sam Cassell and another one of our assistants coached him in Philly and vouched for him. Between that and Brad liking him since the draft, I'm fine burning a mid-2nd that'd end up a two-way or a stash on the slim chance that he can be league average offensively eventually. That's all it would take for him to be a viable rotation piece.

Being more realistic he offers us two things:

1) an on-ball wing defender whose shown the ability to lock down even the best scorers at times

I love adding guys with at least 1 elite skill to the back end of the bench. I want 1-2 guys like Oshae who can be a jack of all trades, master of none and can fill a lot of holes, but I'll take specialists with the rest of the spots.

Even if he doesn't develop offensively, we've got such a stacked team I think Joe can still find minutes for him where he impacts the game by face guarding opposing studs for stretches (even if it's just in the regular season).

2) a $4m salary slot that can be used to acquire guys making slightly more than the minimum in trades

The list of guys you can get by trading Springer instead of a minimum contract guy is very limited (it's around 50 guys right now), but it's still providing more options than what we'd have ordinarily. That's got heightened significance now that we're going to be restricted by the 2nd apron conditions and can't stack small salaries to match larger ones. I wouldn't be surprised if we gave him the qualifying offer or even overpaid him by more than that on a 2 year deal with the 2nd year non-guaranteed so that he could be moved later with draft capital on for a better player. GM's are going to have to be more creative in finding ways to add salary without breaking down more expensive contracts for parts.

[Hal14]

I agree with Homerclease that the best way to look at Springer is as a TPE scratch ticket.

I honestly think that if we had kept the Bulls 2nd (projected at #42) and traded the Dallas 2nd (projected at #48) people would be more bullish on the trade (and I include myself in that). Which is kind of ridiculous considering there are only 5 picks separating those two in the 2024 draft, but the optics would be better.

He's most likely a "2nd draft"/"2nd contract" type of player, so I don't think it's wise to have any significant expectations for him this year or next. Shooting is the single hardest skillset to develop in basketball in my opinion, so I'm always wary of guys whose potential hinges on getting better in that area. Most never are able to make enough strides.

I do think it really bodes well for him though that both Sam Cassell and another one of our assistants coached him in Philly and vouched for him. Between that and Brad liking him since the draft, I'm fine burning a mid-2nd that'd end up a two-way or a stash on the slim chance that he can be league average offensively eventually. That's all it would take for him to be a viable rotation piece.

Being more realistic he offers us two things:

1) an on-ball wing defender whose shown the ability to lock down even the best scorers at times

I love adding guys with at least 1 elite skill to the back end of the bench. I want 1-2 guys like Oshae who can be a jack of all trades, master of none and can fill a lot of holes, but I'll take specialists with the rest of the spots.

Even if he doesn't develop offensively, we've got such a stacked team I think Joe can still find minutes for him where he impacts the game by face guarding opposing studs for stretches (even if it's just in the regular season).

2) a $4m salary slot that can be used to acquire guys making slightly more than the minimum in trades

The list of guys you can get by trading Springer instead of a minimum contract guy is very limited (it's around 50 guys right now), but it's still providing more options than what we'd have ordinarily. That's got heightened significance now that we're going to be restricted by the 2nd apron conditions and can't stack small salaries to match larger ones. I wouldn't be surprised if we gave him the qualifying offer or even overpaid him by more than that on a 2 year deal with the 2nd year non-guaranteed so that he could be moved later with draft capital on for a better player. GM's are going to have to be more creative in finding ways to add salary without breaking down more expensive contracts for parts.

I agree with most of this, but 2 things I would add.

1) I think shooting is actually the easiest skill to improve for college/NBA players. Derrick was not a good shooter before boston and look what he's doing now. Grant missed his first 25 threes in the NBA (was not a shooter in college either) but worked his butt off to then hit 36% from 3 and the year after that was at 40%. Jordan Walsh went from 27% last season in college, worked his butt off in the summer and then shot like 41% during summer league and (last i checked) was around 36% this season in G League.

JB went from like 29% in college to competing in the 3 pt contest in the NBA. Maxey was around 29% from 3 in college, so was Anthony Edwards. Donovan Mitchell shot 25% from 3 as a freshman. BUddy Hield shot 23% from 3 as a freshman. Julius Randle shot 16% from 3 as a freshman, he did not really shoot 3's at all in college but worked at it and has become a good shooter in the NBA. KAT didn't shoot 3's in college and now he's considered the best big man shooter ever. Horford didn't shoot 3's in college (or in his first several NBA season) and now he's a top 5 shooter in the league. Brook Lopez didn't shoot 3's in college (or the first several years of his NBA career) but he developed into a really solid shooter later in his career. Guys like Valanciunas and Nurkic developed their shot later in their career as well. Scottie Barnes has developed into a respectable shooter this season in his 3rd season, despite struggling to shoot earlier in his career and only shot 27% from 3 in college.

Lamelo shot 27% from 3 overseas before heading over to NBA. Kawhi shot 20% from 3 as a freshman and only 29% from 3 during his last college season. Jrue was a non-shooter in college and then developed into a really good shooter in the NBA.

Jason Kidd was a poor outside shooter for most of his career, but later in his career became much better from 3. Kris Dunn has been a poor shooter for most of his career but has improved quite a bit in Utah.

Kevin Love was never really a shooter, until later in his career. Rondo was a bad shooter for most of his career but then goes bonkers hitting every shot he took in the bubble. Jae Crowder struggled with his shooting till his age 26 season In Boston.

Caruso all of a sudden is hitting 40% from 3 this season after not being a very good shooter for most of his career.

Matisse Thybulle was a non-shooter in Philly and then goes to Portland and develops into a much better shooter. Lu Dort was a poor shooter for most of his career (29% from 3 as a rookie) and now all of a sudden is hitting 29% from 3 in his age 24 season. Jalen Suggs struggled from 3 his first 2 years but is shooting much better this season in year 3 at age 22.

Terry Rozier's 3 pt shooting in his first 3 seasons in the NBA:
22% at age 21
31% at age 22
38% at age 23

There's countless other examples of this.

Not every guy becomes a good shooter, obviously. But IMO shooting is the skill where we see the most examples of guys who show really notable improvement during their college/NBA careers. There's not really another skill that I'm aware of where you see this many guys who improve so much. Like, you just don't see tons of guys out of nowhere at age 26 all of a sudden have their rebounding % skyrocket.

2) Minor detail here but I don't really see Oshae as a jack of all trades, master of none type of guy. I think he *is* a specialist. I think he's a rebounding/hustle/energy specialist. Our rebounding numbers as a team are off the charts when he's in the game.

[cl2117]

I agree with most of this, but 2 things I would add.

1) I think shooting is actually the easiest skill to improve for college/NBA players. Derrick was not a good shooter before boston and look what he's doing now. Grant missed his first 25 threes in the NBA (was not a shooter in college either) but worked his butt off to then hit 36% from 3 and the year after that was at 40%. Jordan Walsh went from 27% last season in college, worked his butt off in the summer and then shot like 41% during summer league and (last i checked) was around 36% this season in G League.

*snip*

2) Minor detail here but I don't really see Oshae as a jack of all trades, master of none type of guy. I think he *is* a specialist. I think he's a rebounding/hustle/energy specialist. Our rebounding numbers as a team are off the charts when he's in the game.

I'm just not there with you on the shooting, but admittedly have no empirical evidence to back that up. Obviously guys can and do improve their shooting skills, sometimes even dramatically, but I still firmly believe that it's the hill most NBA careers die on because it's the hardest. Maybe my perspective is skewed by the fact that shooting is so important so you see guys who don't develop it filter out of the league more often, making it seem more difficult to develop. Whereas if you can shoot but are deficient elsewhere, it's a lot easier to stick around.

Rebounding/defense always felt like a hustle/awareness/effort skillsets to me. Obviously there is innate skills involved in it as well, but both seem like areas that are easier to improve on as compared to shooting which has a much larger element of touch/form with a much higher margin for error. Passing would be my 2nd most difficult area for guys to improve on after shooting. Being a willing passer will go a long way, but there is a level of court awareness that is really hard to develop. The fact that you're throwing the ball to a willing recipient rather than at a metal hoop gives you more margin for error and makes it a little easier to improve on in comparison to shooting. Rebounding/defense give you the most room to make mistakes and where you can make up ground most just by hustling/being in the right position.

Fair enough on Oshae though that's not exactly his niche. I'm probably underselling his rebounding ability and overstating his shooting ability by describing him like that. Still though he's close enough to what I'm looking for in an archetype for that role on the bench. A guy who knows he's the 5th guy out there and doesn't try to do too much, gives you a little of everything (e.g not a total zero on offense and not going to be targeted specifically on defense).

Springer I think has a chance to be that kind of guy next year, but in my eyes it's more of a veteran role than one for guys still on their rookie contracts. They get longer leashes from coaches and just look like they fit more more smoothly out there compared to guys still developing.

[shackles10]

Not even singling out Springer, it's just hard for anyone that's a prospect to break through our regular rotation. It's top-heavy and we can't spend a lot on the lower end so they're generally all prospects and either 2nd rounders, UFA, or vet min's looking to break through so lots of competition for the few spots available between guys in similar positions and abilities.