Start a franchise - Shaq or Kareem?

[Laimbeer]

Which young center would you rather build around?

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Kareem.....he entered the NBA with a winning track record. Not to mention he could hit his freebies.

[NYK 455]

Shaq.

[Sedale Threatt]

If I could get 99-00 Shaq every year, it's a no-brainer. But Kareem's longevity and durability is awful attractive in comparison. Can't turn that down.

[NYK 455]

If I could get 99-00 Shaq every year, it's a no-brainer. But Kareem's longevity and durability is awful attractive in comparison. Can't turn that down.

Shaq had a very dominant 12 year prime, basically from 92-04. It's not like he had a short prime.

[tidho]

Kareem easily.
He was not only the better player, but productive much longer than Shaq.

Better movie career too.

[Sedale Threatt]

If I could get 99-00 Shaq every year, it's a no-brainer. But Kareem's longevity and durability is awful attractive in comparison. Can't turn that down.

Shaq had a very dominant 12 year prime, basically from 92-04. It's not like he had a short prime.

But for seven of those 12 years, he's missing at least 15 games. Kareem, in comparison, missed more than a handful only twice in 20. Plus the fact he was still capable of winning the Finals MVP at 37, a point where Shaq is strictly an injury-prone role player. That's a huge, huge advantage.

[Bskey]

Shaq. With all due respect to Kareem I would take prime Shaq over most players all time. And his prime was long enough to win plenty of championships if you could keep him motivated and getting along with teammates.

[LascelleL]

If I could get 99-00 Shaq every year, it's a no-brainer. But Kareem's longevity and durability is awful attractive in comparison. Can't turn that down.

Shaq had a very dominant 12 year prime, basically from 92-04. It's not like he had a short prime.

[Sedale Threatt]

If I could get 99-00 Shaq every year, it's a no-brainer. But Kareem's longevity and durability is awful attractive in comparison. Can't turn that down.

Shaq had a very dominant 12 year prime, basically from 92-04. It's not like he had a short prime.

But for seven of those 12 years, he's missing at least 15 games. Kareem, in comparison, missed more than a handful only twice in 20. Plus the fact he was still capable of winning the Finals MVP at 37, a point where Shaq is strictly an injury-prone role player. That's a huge, huge advantage.

[Wavy Q]

Kareem.

[TrueLAfan]

Do a year by year comparison. Take the best years of Shaq and compare them to the best year's of Kareem. It'll be close for a few years, and Kareem will gradually pull away.

You'd have something like

Code: Select all

Kareem    Shaq
1971      2000
1972      2001
1976      1994
1974      1995
1980      1999


Close. Interesting. If you prorate Shaq's 1999 season for 82 games, they have similar numbers.

Code: Select all

          G    MPG   PPG   RPG  APG   FG%  FT%   SPG   BPG  REB%
Shaq     393  38.2  28.7  12.3  3.0  .581 .532  0.74  2.54  18.2
Kareem   408  41.5  29.2  15.0  4.4  .563 .710  1.27  3.68  17.9


Close, as you'd expect it to be. Kareem plays a little more and plays a little longer in each game. Scoring is close to a wash; so is rebounding. Kareem is a better passer, although Shaq was very good. Shaq is a slightly better FG shooter; Kareem is much better at the line. And Kareem is the better defender.

Accolades? Team success? Shaq won titles in two of those years. Kareem also won two. Shaq won an MVP in one those five years. Kareem was—wait for it—MVP in each of those seasons. Shaq made two second team All-D teams. Kareem made two first teams and two second teams.

I would go with Kareem here, but it's plenty close. And that's exactly how great Shaq is for me. His five best years are, at worst, slightly below five MVP years from an all-time great C.

But after this, Kareem pulls away. He pulls away for a pretty simple reaosn. Shaq didn't stay healthy or in condition. In his career, Shaq had seven seasons where he played at least 70 games...and this if you prorate 1999. (Technically, it's eight … but Shaq's in 2006 year with Phoenix was not one of his 10 or 11 best years. If you take Shaq's next six best years and put them up against Kareem's next best six, you might get:

Code: Select all

Kareem    Shaq
1977      2002
1973      2003
1979      1993
1981      2005
1975      1996
1978      1998


Kareem begins to pull away.

Code: Select all

          G    MPG   PPG   RPG  APG   FG%  FT%   SPG   BPG  REB%
Shaq     399  36.7  26.0  11.6  2.6  .578 .543  0.62  2.54  17.8
Kareem   445  39.1  26.9  13.2  4.3  .557 .737  1.09  3.26  17.5


Kareem plays about 11-12% more games, and is on the court about 8% more in each of those games. That adds up. It means that, in an average season, you've got your best player on the court for about 450 more minutes during the season. Figure it as 8-12 more games a year. It's a pretty big difference.

Shaq has titles in two of those years, and this is his leg up against Kareem. He's a slightly better FG shooter. Scoring and rebounding are more or less a push. And that means Kareem is the better free throw shooter, passer, and defender. And he's on the court 15%-20% more. He has two first team All-D and two more second team All-D selections; Shaq has a single second team selection. Shaq has a terrific MVP record; he finishes second once, and has three other top 5 finishes...and is in the otp ten in the other two years. It's great...but Kareem's record is better. Kareem won the MVP in 1977, was second in 1973, and was in the top 5 every other year of those six years.

And then there the rest of Shaq's career, compared to Kareem's other years through 1986.

Code: Select all

          G    MPG   PPG  RPG  APG   FG%  FT%   SPG   BPG  REB%
Shaq     415  29.5  16.7  8.8  2.0  .585 .518  0.60  1.74  17.4
Kareem   475  35.0  23.6  9.1  3.1  .578 .716  0.79  2.07  13.8


Shaq is a better rebounder now. And that, really, is it. Kareem scores more, shoots as well (with more range), can hit from the line, and blocks more shots. He plays 15% more (about 12-15 games a year), and is on the court almost 30% more in each game. He's still an outstanding defender; he makes two more All-D teams. He has four more years in the top 5 of MVP voting, and two years after that in the top 10.

This is leaving out Kareem in 1987, when he dropped off but was still a very good player (17.5-6.7-2.6 on 56% shooting).

So for the first five years, it's close. I'd rather have Kareem, but it's subjective. In the next six years, it's still pretty close...but Kareem is on the court markedly more and the defensive gap increases. And other than that, it's Kareem all the way. So I'd argue that

1) Kareem was about as good at his peak as Shaq was at his peak.
2) Kareem spent more years/time at his peak or near peak than Shaq did.
3) Kareem was still a really good player after his top 11-12 years; the gap between the players is clear.

If you want to factor college in, maybe you should: Shaq was a terrific college player. Kareem was one of the two or three best college basketball players in history. One of my favorite stories...when Kareem was a freshman in 1966, freshmen weren't allowed to play on varsity teams. The Bruins won the championship in 1965, and were the preseason #1. So the UCLA freshmen team played the defending national champions...and beat them, 75-60. The UCLA team was ranked #1 and were the defending national champions...and they weren't even the best team at their own school.

So, yeah, I'll go with Kareem here.

[kasino]

Kareem

[Chosen01]

Kareem, his durability is what makes him an easy pick IMO.

[Dr Positivity]

Kareem cause he anchors your d better and is more durable, as mentioned. Though you can't really sit on the usual excuse against Shaq in these threads, that he'll bolt. Something tells me you'd have a better chance of keeping Kareem long term though

[JordansBulls]

Kareem would probably stay longer with your franchise so him.

[jaypo]

I don't necesarily think Kareem is the better defensive player here. The numbers are pretty close. You can't really go wrong. But if you are looking at longevity, and this is coming from a Shaq fan, I'd pick Kareem knowing what I know now.

But I still like Shaq better!

[shawngoat23]

Kazaam vs. Game of Death.

[Fencer reregistered]

Kareem for offense, defense, rebounding, durability, and intangibles.

Shaq for everything else.

[Doctor MJ]

Which young center would you rather build around?

Kareem, at least with him, if things go well he stays.