Milwaukee Bucks in the 70s and how good is Oscar Robertson

[bastillon]

I was looking at the best SRS teams ever: http://bkref.com/tiny/KkpXB
my first thoughts: "okay, Bulls are actually underrated because Rodman missed some games at the start of that season and they went 14.2 SRS with him"; "Milwaukee must've been great two results in the top4"; "hey look there's another Milwaukee team... wait, another".

as we all know that team had Kareem on their roster. but what really stood out is the period... it didn't correlate directly with Kareem's presence, it correlated with the addition of Oscar Robertson. so let's take a tour into the 60s. Oscar joins his team, where he has the smallest bigs in the league. year after year he anchors top2 offenses in the league (mostly #1s)...and yet the Royals are mediocre to average most of the time. here's why: Jerry Lucas and co. couldn't play defense so every year Royals would've amazing offense, but were last in the league defensively, which caused them to suffer against the top teams.

anyway there goes his entire prime, he's still elite player going for 25/9/6 on league's best efficiency in his last two years in Royals uniform, but he's not recognized for his true greatness because his numbers don't seem to translate into team's success. (they actually did, Royals were the best offensive team of the decade by far)

so what happens now is key to understand Oscar's value. let's go back to 1969: Bucks win the lottery, select Lew Alcindor, who was later known as the great Kareem Abdul-Jabbar; they also select Dandridge, a Worthy-type player in terms of value. the turnaround is great: they're going from 27 wins to 56 wins...but what actually happened is Bucks overachieved in the RS, their SRS was at 4.25 which is consistent with ~52W team. now, having established the level of play of Milwaukee Bucks 1970, we also have to take into consideration it was Kareem's rookie year.

however big impact that may have made on their performance the next year, let's consider the following:

1)Traded Zaid Abdul-Aziz and cash to the Seattle SuperSonics for Lucius Allen and Bob Boozer.
well, solid role players who went later to become really good players, but they were too young to make any kind of significant impact and played 22 and 19 mpg, posting 9/5 and 7/3/3, respectively. and actually Abdul-Aziz besides having a really royal name (current Saudi Arabia dynasty is Abdul-Aziz) also contributed nicely with 7.5/7.5 in 20 mpg.

2) Traded Charlie Paulk and Flynn Robinson to the Cincinnati Royals for Oscar Robertson.
Paulk didn't even play on that 1970 team so he's pretty much irrelevant. Flynn Robinson however was their 2nd best scorer 22/5.5/3 on good efficiency - that must've hurt. they got Robertson instead but he was actually posting similar numbers - 19/8/6.

so Kareem made a rookie sophomore improvement, they traded for couple of good role players giving up a very good role player instead, and Flynn was swapped with Oscar whereas they produced similar boxscore stats.

so what you would've expected in this situation is a minimal progress. but what really happened was one of the greatest SRS improvements in league's history, an unprecedented +7.7 SRS jump. so to give you an idea of how much of a jump that is, let's put that into some perspective:

1) Bill Russell joins the Celtics +4 SRS
Bill Russell retires -7 SRS
2) Larry Bird joins the Celtics +12 SRS (wow thats big)
3) Magic Johnson retires due to AIDS -7 SRS
4) Shaq joins Magic +7 SRS
5) Michael Jordan retires in 93 -3 SRS; it'd be -7 if we're taking 92 as a comparison point
Michael Jordan comes back for 96 +7.5 SRS (+10 SRS with Rodman; +6.5 SRS without Rodman)
6) Tim Duncan joins the Spurs and David Robinson comes back from season ending injury +11 SRS
7) Steve Nash starts balling +10 SRS
8) Big Three arrives +13 SRS

now that we have a proper context, let's look at what Oscar did. the guy was a superstar, was posting ridiculous statlines on bad teams and everyone thought he was a loser. now the guy is traded for someone who puts up really solid numbers (22/5.5/3) and instead of barely improving his team, he makes them play at historical level - Milwaukee Bucks 1971 have the highest SRS rating of all time (but actually Bulls with Rodman would've been better had it not been for his missed games).

so long story short:
1970 Kareem and Dandridge are drafted +9 SRS
1971 Oscar shows up +7 SRS; they're now at all time best 11.9
1972 4th all time 10.8 SRS, Oscar missed some games during which Bucks played a lot worse
1973 30th all time 7.8 SRS as Oscar slowly finishes his career and his numbers drop to 15/7/5
1974 36th all time 7.6 SRS as Oscar plays his last season in the NBA; puts up 13/6/4
1975 Oscar retires, Bucks miss the playoffs as Kareem was injured for 20 games; -7.5 SRS

1) we should stop pretending Oscar Robertson is a top15-20 player of all time. based on this impact I'd be willing to say he's close to Magic Johnson. the guy came to a 4.2 SRS team and improved them to all time best 11.9. who else came close to that ? Michael Jordan came back and his team was +6.5 SRS (not accounting for Rodman).

2) is that impact attributable to Oscar ? how do I know it's him who made it work ? Oscar was leading the top2 offense annually in the 60s. then he proceeded to go to the Bucks and in 1971 Bucks had top4 offense of all time.

3) so what happened when Oscar missed games, how much of an impact did that make on his team ?
Bucks in 1968 went 3-14. for the rest we have Elgee's stats which are more accurate because they're showing pt differential with and without Oscar:

Robertson 1968 (21g) 14.4 to 2.5
Robertson 1972 (18g) 8.2 to 13
Robertson 1970 (11g) 5.8 to 2.1

basically, the improvement is immense. thinking about it now, 1972 Bucks were even a better team that year than in 1971, because 13 pts differential at that pace is still about 12.5 SRS...but Oscar was injured for the playoffs (went down in game 3) and this is what happened:

The teams split their first two games, and Robertson was injured late in the third game. The Lakers rallied to win and then swept the last two games, with Robertson playing at half speed in the fourth contest and not at all in the fifth.

that contest wasn't close anymore without Oscar. and again, it's not very surprising; Elgee's stats have Bucks at +4.8 pt differential and this is basically a 50 win team without him. thing to remember: 1972 Lakers were one of the greatest teams of all time - by SRS they're 3rd all time at 11.65.

basing on the evidence I've just presented I'm going to go out on a limb and say Oscar Robertson belongs to the Larry Bird/Magic/Duncan/Hakeem group and should be finally given credit for his tremendous impact during his entire career. he was arguably the greatest scorer of his days, he was arguably as good a passer as Magic or Bird.

join the Oscar bandwagon; give credit where it's due

[Prolific Scorer]

[tsherkin]

Nice post!

[JordansBulls]

I actually enjoyed that combo personally even though I'm not really that much of a fan of Oscar.

[bastillon]

a fantastic post by a great researcher:

Oscar May Be Key to Unlock Title Door for Young Bucks

If one super-star can lift the Milwaukee Bucks from last place to second, think of what two such stars can do. It’s certain the Bucks are thinking.

With Lew Alcindor and only a so-so supporting cast, the Bucks still managed to finish within only four games of the world champion New York Knicks in the Eastern Division last season.

Under the new National Basketball Association realignment of four divisions, the Bucks now reside in the Midwest Division, the Knicks in the Atlantic. And now the Bucks have Oscar Robertson.

If there was one thing the Bucks sorely needed last year, it was a ball handler and leader in the backcourt to take charge of a young team. Robertson more than fits the bill.

As an added strengthener, the Bucks also picked up Bob Boozer and Lucius Allen to fill out their bench.

Young starters Bob Dandridge, Greg Smith and Jon McGlocklin also should improve under Robertson’s guidance.

With Detroit, Chicago and Phoenix the other teams in the Division, Milwaukee’s biggest obstacles toward a spot in the NBA championship series should come from the Pacific Division with Los Angeles and San Francisco.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rh ... 06,4317255

Superstars Lew and Oscar Turn Bucks Into Super Club

MILWAUKEE (AP) – The Big O and Big A are paid-up members of the Mutual Admiration Society.

“You know Oscar’s going to do the right thing all of the time,” said 7-foot-2 Lew Alcindor of his Milwaukee Bucks’ teammate, Oscar Robertson.

“Lew’s very agile and quick,” Robertson said. “He’s got a better shot. He’s very tough to guard.”

The two superstars are blending their talents together for the first time this season after Milwaukee obtained Robertson from the Cincinnati Royals in an off-season trade.

The mixture has been highly successful thus far. The Bucks have a healthy lead in the National Basketball Association’s Midwest Division.

Two of the most widely-heralded collegiate stars to enter the pro ranks, Alcindor and Robertson have one thing in common. Both are team players.

“Oscar’s a leader,” Milwaukee Coach Larry Costello said. “He comes to play. He creates situations and drives to the basket. The other teams can’t afford to sag on Lew and forget everybody else.”

The Royals’ top draft choice in 1960 following an outstanding career at the University of Cincinnati, Robertson has played in 10 straight NBA All-Star contest, all as a starter, and has won the game’s Most Valuable Player award three times and was runnerup for the award twice.

Oscar is the leading playmaker in the NBA and is third behind only Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor on the all-time scoring list.

Yet, at Cincinnati, he was called a “selfish player, one who was more interested in his own points rather than if his team was losing or winning.”

“They had to say something bad about me,” Oscar said. “They also said I didn’t like to run. But I’m the all-time leader in assists. I have to be doing something to get down there.”

The addition of Alcindor, a three-time All-American while at UCLA, lifted the Bucks last year from a last-place team to a contender.

Against the New York Knicks in the playoffs, however, the inability of Milwaukee’s guards to score was decisive in the Bucks’ defeat.

This season, Alcindor is scoring at a league-leading 32 points per game pace, four points a game over last year.

“He’s much quicker than other people think he is,” Robertson said of the Big A.

Oscar, on the other hand, has preferred to pass more and shoot less. His scoring average, consequently, has come down considerably from his lifetime mark of 29.3. Through November’s games, Oscar averaged 18 points per outing.

The difference in the team too, is up front where two of the smallest forwards in the NBA 6-6 Bob Dandridge and 6-5 Greg Smith, operate.

Dandridge’s point production has ballooned from 13.5 points a game last year to 19.9, including a high of 39. Smith has increased his averaged from 9.7 to 12.4.

“I’m getting better shots simply because Oscar is such a great passer,” Dandridge said.

“He knows when to give the ball to you and when not to.”

Smith admitted that he’s a harder worker without the ball now that Robertson is on the same team.

“You know if you get open Oscar will get the ball to you,” Smith said.

Both Robertson and Alcindor have helped the Bucks’ defense, also.

“He’s constantly getting on you to keep moving and to play defense,” Dandridge said of Oscar.

“He makes us talk defense,” Smith said of the Big O. “You’ve got to talk, You don’t have eyes in the back of your head. So somebody else has got to tell you what’s going on behind you.”

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ij ... 71,1582589

Oscar's leadership is what made that team click. they fell apart without him.

[bastillon]

my debate with Doctor MJ from 1972 RPOY thread, which seems relevant to discussion:

using my brand new combine team WS method to estimate ORTg/DRtg I'm shocked at how awesome Bucks were on offense this year.

70: 29.9 OWS, 20.7 DWS
71: 43.8 OWS, 23.7 DWS

for reference...
87 Lakers: 38.6 OWS, 24.7 DWS
07 Suns: 40.4 OWS, 19.9 DWS

so what this means is that Oscar joins an above average offensive team and they become all-time great offensively. that's Oscar past his prime and playing as a 2nd fiddle. of course Bucks added more players but neither Lucius Allen (48.5 TS, 0.7 OWS) nor Boozer (50.2 TS, 1.7 OWS) were great offensively that year. Kareem went from 51.8 to 57.7 in FG%. that's nasty.

thoughts on Oscar's impact ?

using my brand new combine team WS method to estimate ORTg/DRtg I'm shocked at how awesome Bucks were on offense this year.

70: 29.9 OWS, 20.7 DWS
71: 43.8 OWS, 23.7 DWS

for reference...
87 Lakers: 38.6 OWS, 24.7 DWS
07 Suns: 40.4 OWS, 19.9 DWS

so what this means is that Oscar joins an above average offensive team and they become all-time great offensively. that's Oscar past his prime and playing as a 2nd fiddle. of course Bucks added more players but neither Lucius Allen (48.5 TS, 0.7 OWS) nor Boozer (50.2 TS, 1.7 OWS) were great offensively that year. Kareem went from 51.8 to 57.7 in FG%. that's nasty.

thoughts on Oscar's impact ?

1) Big.

2) However, Kareem really did take a quantum leap this year, and he put up individual stats at around this level in years post-Oscar.

3) This is the point in Oscar's career where he actually acts like what we now call a point guard, instead of simply as a lead guard (who basically acts as point & shooting guard while the other guard occupies space). Since we know how good teams can be with a stellar point guard and good teammates, I'd say Oscar deserves credit for making clear he can play this role, but I wouldn't treat this as "even decrepit Oscar had huge impact, so peak Oscar must have 5X better!".

1) Big.

2) However, Kareem really did take a quantum leap this year, and he put up individual stats at around this level in years post-Oscar.

3) This is the point in Oscar's career where he actually acts like what we now call a point guard, instead of simply as a lead guard (who basically acts as point & shooting guard while the other guard occupies space). Since we know how good teams can be with a stellar point guard and good teammates, I'd say Oscar deserves credit for making clear he can play this role, but I wouldn't treat this as "even decrepit Oscar had huge impact, so peak Oscar must have 5X better!".

but how do you know if Kareem himself was better or whether it was Oscar who improved him ? how many times does it happen that one's FG% goes up by 5.9 ? it's simply too much improvement for one year, especially considering 4.3 more pts per36. Kareem almost DOUBLED his OWS (from 9.3 to 17.0) and improved in volumes by 7.7. that's unparalleled for NBA history.

what makes me even more confident is KAJ's assists. (per36) 3.4 in rookie season, 3.0 in 71, 3.7 in 72 and then around 4 for the next decade. it wasn't until 82 that KAJ's assists were so low. usually finishers tend to have less assists than primary initiators and while Kareem created a lot of offense for his teammates, he was clearly having less responsibilities in that area in 71.

to follow up on your point about Kareem duplicating that season offensively...

Code: Select all

year  PtsPer36

 70     24.1
 71     28.4
 72     28.4
 73     25.4
 74     22.2
 75     25.5
 76     24.2
 77     25.7
 78     25.4
 79     21.7
 80     23.3
 81     25.3
 82     24.4
 83     24.3
 84     23.6
 85     23.7
 86     25.3
 87     20.1
 88     18.2
 89     15.9

so really Kareem's best years coincided with Oscar's best years as a Buck. btw it's amazing how Magic helped KAJ... he extended his career by about 5 years. Kareem didn't lose any of his scoring in the late 80s. minutes aside, he was just as effective as in his prime (excluding Oscar years). Magic's scary.

look at OWS - best years again in Milwaukee.

so there you have it: unimaginable rookie-soph improvement, very low APG for those volumes, best scoring years in 2nd and 3rd season... I think it says a lot about Oscar's impact that year.

[Doctor MJ]

hehe, incidentally I think I give Oscar a ton of credit for what he did in Milwaukee at this point.

I still wouldn't say "Kareem didn't deserve the MVP, it should have gone to Oscar", but in an era where combining offensive stars typically led to disappointment, Oscar's adjustment with the Bucks stands out as a startling exception.

[bastillon]

Code: Select all

year    OWS    DWS
 69    14.9   14.6
 70    29.9   20.7
 71    43.6   23.8
 72    37.8   28.8
 73    28.8   33.3
 74    30.3   30.4
 75    21.5   19.4

75 was definitely a down year for Kareem's defense. not only were they mediocre defensively, but also lost more points with Kareem in the line-up. was that lack of Oscar's leadership ? clearly Kareem didn't play up to his potential.

but what really stood out when checking stats is how everyone regressed on that 75 team in terms of efficiency. Oscar was making his teammates better, even at that age. DAnridge, Warner, everyone regressed without Oscar's playmaking.

71 and 72 Oscar was having an MVP like impact. that team in 75 had some issues with injuries but they weren't that bad in terms of talent - Kareem, Dandridge and some role players were still there, pretty much the same championship team. what really changed is they lacked Oscar's leadership and playmaking.

it's important not to compartmentalize Oscar as a typical 19/8/6 guy and disregard his boxscore stats. the guy had been a superstar for his entire career, was putting up monster stats and having incredible impact but called a loser who focused too much on getting his (Kevin Garnett analogy anybody ?). Royals management was historically incompetent at building a team around him. so anyway he joins the Bucks and they're going from New Jersey Nets 2002/2003 level to Chicago Bulls 92 level. that +7 SRS improvement I was talking about never happened on such a great team...obviously it's easier to make a poor team play well than make a very good team advance to all time level.

so who did that in history ? Michael Jordan in 96 went to an already good team and made them GOAT team. this is Oscar playing past his physical prime and his making this kind of impact. Oscar was a monster.

[PostKeynesian]

Even Kareem heaps praise on Oscar whenever anyone asks...so I think this thread legitimately points out Oscar's contributions. Though Kareem created much of his own offense and was a beast in his own right, Oscar was just what he needed.

[bastillon]

just watch:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4piRZ8_7GY[/youtube]
wow

[RandomKnight]

I've always felt West was better. Now I'm not sure.

[therealbig3]

Absolutely amazing post.

bastillon, do you think Oscar has an argument for top 5 all time? I'm thinking about the points you made, and how you said he belongs in the Hakeem/Duncan/Bird/Magic tier...I have them ranked:

4. Magic
5. Hakeem
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Bird

Where would you put Oscar in that group? I'm thinking he has an argument up to and including Kareem, who I have 3rd. MJ and Russell as my top two are the only real untouchables. As of right now, I have Oscar 9th, right after Bird.

Again, great stuff, didn't know that about Oscar and how good he truly was.

[Dipper 13]

Much of what Big O did was subtle:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_4LyUaNvrI[/youtube]

*His hard drive right and jumper on Hondo, much like that of Jordan or Bryant in later years (22:54 mark)

*His brilliant change of pace dribble faking a great defensive player in Siegfried out of his shoes and jumper on Nellie off the screen (23:19 mark)

*Different angle on the jumper over Hondo (24:38 mark)

*And everyone's favorite, his use of the Lucas screen and tough jumper with Russell in his face. Again, a sampling of the "tough shot making ability" that everyone so often admires in Jordan & Bryant. (24:59 mark)




Giant Steps - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

"Oscar had a knack of getting me the ball in the right place at the right time. Not too high, didn't want to go up and lose the ground you fought for. Not too low, didn't want to bend for the ball and create a scramble down there. Never wanted to put the ball on the floor where some little guy could come in and steal it away. Oscar knew all of this, and his genius was, whether two men were in his face trying to prevent him from making a pass or in mine trying to prevent me from receiving it, in getting me the ball chest-high so I could turn and hook in one unbroken motion."

[bastillon]

Absolutely amazing post.

bastillon, do you think Oscar has an argument for top 5 all time? I'm thinking about the points you made, and how you said he belongs in the Hakeem/Duncan/Bird/Magic tier...I have them ranked:

4. Magic
5. Hakeem
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Bird

Where would you put Oscar in that group? I'm thinking he has an argument up to and including Kareem, who I have 3rd. MJ and Russell as my top two are the only real untouchables. As of right now, I have Oscar 9th, right after Bird.

Again, great stuff, didn't know that about Oscar and how good he truly was.

thanks.

honestly I don't even know where to put the rest of the guys. my all time list would looked like this:

1.Russell
2.Jordan

3-7 Bird, Hakeem, Kareem, Magic interchangeable
8-10 Duncan, KG, Shaq interchangeable

now, with the addition of Oscar I'm not sure anymore. I do know one thing though. in terms of impact there was very little seperation between Magic and Oscar, and actually I think Oscar has the nod here.

not only the fact that Oscar anchored so many great offensive teams, but due to his vastly underrated and forgotten leadership skills and amazing productivity. also, watching his higlights he looks like Magic/Bird hybrid as scary as it may sound. the guy basically ran the break as well as anybody, could penetrate the lane easily while at the same time shielding his way against Russell or Wilt when going for a layup and had beauty of a jumpshot with 20 foot range quite easily.

I don't think you can form an opinion about Oscar without watching that clip I posted higher.

[Warspite]

Thankyou for this thread

I always believed Oscar had top 10 talent just not accolades. Outside of Magic I dont think I would pick any guy to run my team and Im maybe the biggest Isiah Thomas fan on RealGM.

[ThaRegul8r]

Even Kareem heaps praise on Oscar whenever anyone asks...

Kareem on Oscar:

Oscar Robertson is, in my opinion, the best all-around player in the history of basketball. A lot has been made recently of the “triple double,” a player going into double figures for one game in rebounds, assists, and scoring. Broadcasters and commentators talk about it like it was the Holy Grail. In the 1961–62 season Oscar averaged a triple double: Over an eighty-game schedule he could be counted on for double-figure rebounds; he led the league in assists with 899, and he scored over thirty points a game. He is the all-time NBA leader in assists and free throws made, and third in all-time scoring.

I had watched him on television when I was in high school, but his greatness hadn’t been obvious to me. Playing with the perennial also-ran Cincinnati Royals, he was deadly with that compact, ass-out jump shot, but he didn’t impress me that much. It was when I started playing against him that I began to understand how he controlled the game, and when I finally played with him I really started to see what his game was all about.

Oscar Robertson was the epitome of the subtle, no-flash ballplayer. He had the game broken down into such fine points that if he got even a half-step on you, you were in big trouble. He kept the game very simple, which was his first secret. All the most effective basketball strategists and players have kept their technique honed to its most lean and essential parts. John Wooden did it in his coaching; Bill Russell did it in his playing, and Oscar was the same way. He didn’t have blazing speed, and he didn’t do a whole lot of pirouettes, all he did was score, rebound, and dish the ball off. He could handle the basketball well with both hands, using the crossover dribble, first the right hand then the left then back to the right again, to lure his man into going off-balance or leaning in the wrong direction, after which he’d go right by him, and then it was either time for his shot or a pass. If you were going to stop him, you were just going to stop the basics, and you would have to do it perfectly because he could take advantage of any miscue you might make.

At six feet five inches tall, 210 pounds, Oscar was the first big guard. It wasn’t obvious because he was so smooth and graceful, but he had tremendous brute strength, and if he bumped into you, he’d knock you back on your heels. On defense he was quick and smart and solid, as easily slap the ball away from his man as be the wall that would not crumble before a drive. On offense he had the consistently effective shot and the absolute will to put it in. His whole thing was access to the basket. When he got ready to shoot, if I could give him even a glimpse of space to work with, he would drive past, leading his defender into my shoulder, which would stop the man, and once past me either hit the lay-up or have the court awareness to hit the teammate whose defender had momentarily left him free while trying to stop Oscar.

He was a master of the three-point play, and he was at his best against guys who played him tough. Oscar versus Jerry Sloan was always a great match-up because Jerry played very physical defense. Jerry would get great position, allowing for no movement, no first step to the hoop, and then let his man run into him and be charged with the foul. Oscar loved that because it played right into his hands. Oscar would always let Jerry set, then fake as if he was going around him. Oscar had the great move so, out of respect, Jerry would react, and as soon as he started, Oscar would bowl Jerry over, go up and hit the jumper, and be on his way to the foul line as the whistle was blowing and the ball was hitting the net. Oscar was so subtle he’d never get called for it. Meanwhile, Oscar was a truck, it was like getting hit by Jim Brown. But Sloan would bounce back up, complain to the refs, and get on with his game. I loved to watch them.

But Oscar was even more valuable as a leader than as a scorer. He was thirty-two years old and had lost maybe a step, but his total mastery enabled him to be just as effective as when he was averaging thirty points a game. By directing and inspiring the rest of us, he enable the Bucks to play the game the way it was supposed to be played.

We had all the components in place. The Bucks had obtained Lucius Allen in an off-season deal with Seattle—it was good to have my old friend and running mate with me again—and with Lucius, Bobby Dandridge, and Greg Smith, we had three guys who could get up and down the court in a hurry. I was in the middle, and Oscar controlled the ball like he was dishing out compliments. Bobby was deadly from fifteen to twenty feet, and Oscar could spot him the moment he came open. People wouldn’t guard Greg Smith, which let him run free under the backboard where he was a terror. Oscar would find him. Lucius and Jon McGlocklin played off Oscar, and both of them could either put the ball on the floor or seem to be careening down the court and then pull up and shoot, which made our fast break effective. All the guys played D, and with Bob Boozer and McCoy Lemore coming off the bench for some board strength, we were a very powerful squad.

Coming out of three consecutive college championships and an NBA semifinal, I was used to winning and assumed it would continue pretty regularly, so I was not as overwhelmed playing with Oscar as I might have been. Had I known that what he added to my game would come only once in my professional lifetime, I might have stopped to savor the pleasure of working with the best. I’d never known anything but the best, though, so while I enjoyed playing with Oscar, it wasn’t until several years later that I appreciated him fully.

What the Big O did for me that gave a quantum jump to my game was get me the ball. It sounds simple, and it was—for him. Oscar had this incredible court vision and a complete understanding of the dynamics of the game. Not only did he see guys open on the periphery for a jumper, he knew when each of us would fight through a pick or come open behind a screen, and the ball would arrive and be there like you were taking it off a table.

There is an exact moment when a center, working hard in the pivot for a glimmer of an advantage, has the position he needs for the score. You’ve run the length of the court, established your ground, defended it against the hands, forearms, elbows, trunks, and knees of another two-hundred-and-fifty-pound zealot who is slapping and bumping and shoving to move you off your high ground. You need the ball right then. It’s like a moon shot: Fire too soon and you miss the orbit; fire too late and you’re out of range, but let fly when all signals are Go, and you should hit it right on. Oscar had the knack of getting me the ball right at that place and time. Not too high, didn’t want to go up in the air and lose the ground you’ve fought for. Not too low, didn’t want to bend for the ball and create a scramble down there. Never wanted to put the ball on the floor where some little guy could steal in and slap it away. Oscar knew all of this, and his genius was, whether the two men were in his face trying to prevent him from making the pass or in mine trying to prevent me from receiving it, in getting me the ball chest-high so I could turn and hook in one unbroken motion. No way not to score when Oscar was around. No wonder he was 2,500 more assists than anyone in NBA history.

One night he showed me the whole game. We were playing Golden State, and for some reason Oscar shed ten years and brought out the Big O one last time. Getting old in professional sports doesn’t always mean losing your ability all at once, mostly it means only being able to do in unpredictable spurts what you once could call up at will; becoming a miler among sprinters. That night, maybe because he was challenged, maybe because he was angry, maybe simply because he wanted to, Oscar just dominated the floor. He crushed everyone who opposed him on the court; threw hard, precise passes that demanded to be converted; rebounded with a passion, made seventy percent of his shots and scored thirty-seven points before he was lifted. Total mastery. I envy the guys who played with him in his prime. Playing with Oscar was like working with Thomas Edison.

Oscar took the game seriously. All season long if someone screwed up or didn’t seem to want to play, he would chew them out for not doing his job. People who weren’t rebounding, guys who weren’t playing defense, they were in trouble around Oscar. You had to respect him; you were playing with a legend, and he was still doing all of his job; how could you not do yours?

[ThaRegul8r]

Here's a post someone made five years ago, which I'll put here since the topic is how good Oscar Robertson was:

Was the Big O the best offensive weapon of all time?

I have come to the conclusion that Oscar Robertson was probably the greatest offensive weapon the NBA has ever seen. His production and efficiency in his first ten years are just simply unmatched by any other player in history. Let me list the things that go into an offensive attack.

1. Scoring
During the Big Os first ten years in the league, he scored 29.27 points per game. Total for those years he scored 22009 points. Both of those make him second in the league during that time, behind Wilt Chamberlain, who no one was gonna outscore in those days. And in fact NO OTHER player has had more points total and more PPG in a ten year span than Oscar did in those ten years. NO ONE. Karl Malone scored more points in certain ten year spans because he played in like every game but hes never close in PPG. Kareem scored like 100 more total points in his first ten years than Oscar did but his PPG are lower. Jordan scored more PPG in ten year periods but because he kept retiring he never put together enough years in a row to have the total points. And other than that, no one even beats the Big O in total points OR PPG for a decade. He was simply one of the greatest scorers of all time, and easily the second best scorer of his era.

2. Efficiency in Scoring
Oscar lead the league only once in TS%, in his first year in the league. However, the man was in the top 3 in the league EVERY one of his first ten years. In those ten years he was 1st once, 2nd 6 times, and 3rd 3 times. Two of the times he was second, he trailed only Jerry Lucas, who was on his team and the beneficiary of HIS passes. The fact is that Oscar was EASILY the most efficient scorer of the first ten years of his career. Its probably not even all that close either, because no one else was able to sustain their efficiency for more than a few years.

3. Passing
Oscar lead the league in assists per game 7 of his first 10 years. He got 10.28 assists per game during that period. The next highest person had 7.93 assists. No one was close to him. I mean he got twice the APG of the person with the fifth most APG of the decade. He just dominated this catagory.

So let me recap where the Big O stands in these three catagories in comparison to his peers of his era.

Scoring - 2nd
True Shooting % - 1st
Assists - 1st

Wow, the man was mighty close to scoring the most, at the most efficient clip, and helping his teammates score more than ANY other player in the entire decade. Let me just quickly show how rare it is for someone to excel so much in all three of these. Only once has a player lead the league in points and assists (Tiny Archibald in 1973). Only once has a player lead the league in points and TS% (Bob McAdoo in 1974). Only once has a player lead the league in TS% and assists (John Stockton in 1995). Oscar ALMOST did all of those for an entire decade (and DID do the last one), and he wouldve done it if he hadnt been playing in an era with the most prolific scorer in the history of the game. The man quite simply was an offensive beast that gave you big time points at a really efficient clip while giving his teammates the best opportunities to be really efficient too. And for that reason, I gotta say he was the best offensive weapon of all time.

Wilt Chamberlain scored 27,188 points his first ten years in the league, in 787 games, for an average of 34.5 points per game. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar scored 22,141 points his first ten years in the league in 773 games for an average of 28.6 per game. Michael Jordan retired after nine seasons in 1992-93 with 21,541 points in 656 games played for an average of 32.8 points per game. Robertson scored his 22,009 points on 15,785 field-goal attempts and 7,867 free throw attempts for a true shooting percentage of 57.2. Chamberlain scored his 27,188 points on 20,694 field-goal attempts and 10,057 free throw attempts for a true shooting percentage of 54.1. During this period of time Robertson finished in the top three in offensive win shares all ten years, finished in the top two nine times, and led the league four times.

[bastillon]

+ led the Royals to top2 offense pretty much every year. a monster.

John Havlicek:
Oscar Robertson is the best basketball player I've ever played against. I mean he had NO weakness.

Red Auerbach:
He was the Michael Jordan of his days. In a lot of ways.

Chuck Daly:
If Oscar would be playing today against Michael, we might have a huge argument going on.

Satch Sanders:
Everybody talks about Michael and Michael certainly has a lot of style and stuff... but just flat out kicking ass, Oscar was. A very potent weapon.

Jerry West:
Personally, when I look back at my career, he's the greatest player I've ever played against, period.

Magic Johnson:
He averaged a triple double for ALL season. I could never compare to that. I really found out about how good Oscar Robertson was when I was trying to accomplish the same feats as him.

Lou Carnescesca, HOF coach:
You knew what he was gonna do, you knew exactly where he was gonna go, but you couldn't stop him. That's greatness.

Walt Frazier:
It was hell, man...because he just manipulated you wherever he wanted to go. He didn't try to beat you with quickness, he just overwhelmed you, just methodically back you where he wanted to take you and just jump over you.

Willis Reed:
He would give his own teammates hell, he would give officials hell, he was out to win every night and I like his competitive spirit.

David Aldridge, ESPN
Oscar Robertson was the general in the best sense of the word...and worst sometimes. Players were afraid of him, as much as they respected him, they were also afraid of him.

Norm Van Lier:
I hated him cause he always wanted the ball..."GET THAT BALL BACK OVER HERE"...yes sir, you know.

[ThaRegul8r]

Prior to Robertson’s arrival, the Royals finished fifth in an eight-team league in field-goal percentage. After Robertson’s arrival, the Royals led the league in field-goal percentage for five consecutive years from 1960-61 to 1964-65, finished second in ’65-66 and ’66-67, third in ’67-68, and second in ’68-69. When Robertson was traded to the Milwaukee Bucks for Charlie Paulk and Flynn Robinson in 1970-71, the Bucks became the first team in NBA history to shoot over 50 percent from the field for a season, and four Bucks finished in the top seven in field-goal percentage (Kareem Abdul Jabbar 2nd at .577, Jon McGlocklin 4th at .535, Greg Smith 6th at .512, and Bob Dandridge 7th at .509 [Robertson was 11th at .496]). The Bucks led the league at 49.8 percent in ’71-72, 48.1 percent in ’72-73, and 49.2 percent in ’73-74, Robertson’s final season in the league. The year after Robertson’s retirement, Milwaukee’s field-goal percentage dropped to 46.8 percent, fourth in the league.

[bastillon]

Prior to Robertson’s arrival, the Royals finished fifth in an eight-team league in field-goal percentage. After Robertson’s arrival, the Royals led the league in field-goal percentage for five consecutive years from 1960-61 to 1964-65, finished second in ’65-66 and ’66-67, third in ’67-68, and second in ’68-69. When Robertson was traded to the Milwaukee Bucks for Charlie Paulk and Flynn Robinson in 1970-71, the Bucks became the first team in NBA history to shoot over 50 percent from the field for a season, and four Bucks finished in the top seven in field-goal percentage (Kareem Abdul Jabbar 2nd at .577, Jon McGlocklin 4th at .535, Greg Smith 6th at .512, and Bob Dandridge 7th at .509 [Robertson was 11th at .496]). The Bucks led the league at 49.8 percent in ’71-72, 48.1 percent in ’72-73, and 49.2 percent in ’73-74, Robertson’s final season in the league. The year after Robertson’s retirement, Milwaukee’s field-goal percentage dropped to 46.8 percent, fourth in the league.

Nash's ability to make his teammates better, Kobe's scoring ability, Kidd's rebounding, Jordan's leadership. how is this guy out of top10 all time ?