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Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look?

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Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#1 » by 313 Professor » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:33 pm

I got to watch this game on DVR this morning because my 10AM class was cancelled (couldn't have been happier about that :D ), but I seen the box score and decided to log all of RJ's assists. A 20 Assist game from RJ?? Really? I had to see what really happened.

This is the list of all of Reggie's 20 assists
> To KCP great seam bounce pass in transition Zach Randolph last man back D a bit lazy
> Leaves it for Tolliver in transition he hits the 3
> Lob to Dre P&R
> Lead pass to KCP leaking out/cherry picking lazy D again by MEM
> Baseline drive (light contest) kick to Shawne Williams in corner for 3 (half lazy Jeff Green)
> Drives left, Lee helps, Pass to KCP moving baseline, KCP aggressive driving dunk
> Reverse lob to Andre P&R
> KCP work off ball curls around Dre nice delivery from RJ, KCP finishes layup
> Drives passes to corner to AT for 3 draws help... Udrih a bit light on D
> Dribbles up pass to aggressive KCP in transition jabs then pops 21 footer
> OREB kick out swing to wide open Caron Butler for 3
> Half-drive at Udrih draws help semi-loses ball passes out to Tolliver he hits 3 Z-Bo late
> Drives, pass to corner Udrih easy to get step, Z-Bo slow ass help late back to AT 3 again
> P&R assist to Dre good pass and timing quick move by Dre hook shot score
> P&R right, pass to weak-side KCP hot takes solid contest 3... splashes on Tony Allen's head
> Lob to Andre solid D Koufos/Calathes vs. RJ/Dre P&R 76-75
> P&R Left pass weakside Tayshaun knocks down long 2 Z-Bo soft off-ball D
> Udrih bad entry post pass to Marc, good D, Reggie swipes, pushes... pass to Tay for layup
> Pick left pass weakside to Tay he pulls 21 footer yes
> Oop to Dre at the end (mop-up)

Analysis
First off great floor game by Reggie, knowing when to get it to the shooters, and he made very good decisions throughout the game. With that being said, Beno Udrih vs. his athleticism was a TERRIBLE defensive matchup for Memphis. TERRIBLE. RJ drove in the lane pretty much at will against him, and it wasn't until late that MEM put Tony Allen on him. Also Zach Randolph was especially lazy yesterday, and his matchup vs. the stretch 4 Prince/Tolliver was a mismatch all game. His help defense was weak, transition defense was weak, and he was late closing out all game.

As far as the assists 10 of them were on shots 20+ feet away from the basket. Udrih is not a good defender which allowed him to collapse rather easily and dish, Z-Bo wasn't interested in guarding Tolliver, and sometimes RJ just simply ran pick & roll and dished to the weak side and guys just hit shots and were aggressive. The decisions were good but he didn't really have to do much. Shooters simply knocked down shots. Tay was on from deep/long 2, Tolliver, KCP, Shawne Williams hit one, etc. There wasn't one pass to a shooter that was anything more than a good decision and a made shot.

In terms of creating RJ wasn't required to do much. He made the right decisions, yes... but was he really challenged? No. Out of the 20 assists I only give RJ true credit for creating the offense on 4 of them. Those four are the 3 beautiful lobs to Andre, and the play where he stole Udrih's entry pass to Gasol, pushed, and hit Tay on the break for the transition layup. All great plays. The rest were just good decisions that turned into assists because shooters made shots, players were aggressive (KCP), and the defense was VERY underwhelming (Udrih/Randolph). There was a play where KCP cherry picked and nobody got back. RJ had a wonderful bounce pass to KCP on the break, but Z-Bo sort of just looked at him.... :-?

The 20 assist game looks good on the stat sheet, but it wasn't impressive from a basketball perspective at all. There isn't a starting PG in the league and very few backups that couldn't make the majority of those passes/decisions. Offensively he benefited from bad help from Z-Bo on a couple occasions, abused Udrih, and even though he's streaky he did hit some shots. Vs. Tony Allen at the end he got ripped once but did have a wonderful drive faking P&R right and driving left with the acrobatic finish on him at the rim. Playing with the floor spread helped everybody too. KCP drove a closeout for an RJ assist, worked off ball around Dre in a non-congested lane, etc. This brings up the question of.... do we really want to bring back Monroe?? I'm sort of leaning no.

As far as Reggie though.... Inefficient/streaky O overall, doesn't efficiently create offense vs good D, too streaky from 3, 6th/7th man not a starting PG.... I feel the same way this game doesn't change anything

This thread is the sequel to :o :
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1102573#start_here
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#2 » by DBC10 » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:53 pm

Haha, nice analysis and a good sequel to the throwback Stuckey discussions. Oh man, the board was absolutely torn on Stuckey weren't they? You think you can do an analysis of Jennings on his 21 ast game or is that too far back? Just for comparison sake.

You know I got to say, if we can actually draft a stretch 4 or find one in the market (highly unlikely) then I don't mind Monroe leaving as much as I thought I did. It's going to hurt with Monroe leaving, that's for sure, but I'd rather have him succeed elsewhere then here where fans and media will always question fit. I'd rather just end the debate completely by letting him go.
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#3 » by Canadafan » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:59 pm

Booooooo. Lol I'm confident between him and Jennings coming back and Spencer that we Are More than fine at PG.
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#4 » by Billl » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:27 pm

You are really underestimating those throw aheads that led to easy buckets. That takes some great court vision and are basically the pg creating offense. Same goes for really strong pushes in transition that lead to open looks or deep penetration for kickouts. Very few of his assists were of the "swing it around the perimeter and hope a guy hits a shot" or "wait as a guy runs off 5 picks" variety.
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#5 » by Cant touch this » Wed Mar 18, 2015 6:47 pm

I guess from the analysis we might expect that all the top point guards like Paul, Westbrook, Lillard, Curry, Wall and so on are dropping twenty dimes a lot. But maybe not.......

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/ ... of-season/
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#6 » by DetroitPistons » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:00 pm

:roll:
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#7 » by DocRI » Wed Mar 18, 2015 8:02 pm

I remember when you did that analysis of Stuckey's game, and my opinion of this one is that same as that — congratulations on (once again) crafting such a long, irrelevant, self-serving, mountainous pile of fresh manure that illustrates both your lack of understanding of the game of basketball while also exposing your obvious prejudice against a certain player.

I once shot stick with a lady who was a semi-professional pool player, and she basically wound up "holding court" and teaching all of us bar hacks all afternoon. Her #1 tip that I've never forgotten? A good pool player NEVER has to make a hard shot; rather, they always leave themselves positioned for another easy one. Such is exactly the case with basketball — when a TEAM is playing cohesive TEAM OFFENSE together, everything gets made easy for everyone. Easy passes lead to easy shots. Your critiques, first of Stuckey and now of Jackson, are an argument against GOOD TEAM OFFENSE! "That was an easy pass," "That was a short pass," "That was a pass to a guy 20 feet from the basket" ... THAT'S THE WHOLE DAMN POINT!!! You're not making a valid criticism against the point guard; rather, you are in fact paying a compliment to all five guys on the court!

And this isn't to say that Jackson (or Stuckey previously) don't deserve credit; that would be like dismissing a 20 rebound game from Drummond with, "Well, he's tall, he's supposed to do that." Yes, he's supposed to do that, same as Jackson is supposed to get the ball to the guy who's in the best position to score. But when they do their job, and do so exceptionally, you REALLY have to reach to criticize them.

So I'll end with a challenge to you — go watch a 15+ assist game of Chris Paul and adhere the EXACT same standards to his assists as you did to Jackson's from last night. I will all but guarantee that you'll be stunned to find how many "easy" passes you'll find. Of course, I'd just call those smart basketball ... and if you agree, it'll just show how you're prejudiced and nit-picking against players you don't like.
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#8 » by ImHeisenberg » Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:07 pm

Had a longer reply, but Doc pretty much encompassed it with his passionate post.
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#9 » by Dirtgrain » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:16 pm

ImHeisenberg wrote:Had a longer reply, but Doc pretty much encompassed it with his passionate post.


I'm going with DetroitPistons' post. :wink:
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#10 » by rmfc » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:20 pm

:D
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#11 » by Ghost » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:00 pm

I don't know, after looking at the stats again it does appear that Jackson passed the ball 20 times to people who then converted field goals.

Maybe if he would have been more selfish by taking shots instead of passing, Drummond could have got 20 rebounds.. This guy can't do anything right!
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#12 » by 313 Professor » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:16 pm

DBC10 wrote:Haha, nice analysis and a good sequel to the throwback Stuckey discussions. Oh man, the board was absolutely torn on Stuckey weren't they? You think you can do an analysis of Jennings on his 21 ast game or is that too far back? Just for comparison sake.

You know I got to say, if we can actually draft a stretch 4 or find one in the market (highly unlikely) then I don't mind Monroe leaving as much as I thought I did. It's going to hurt with Monroe leaving, that's for sure, but I'd rather have him succeed elsewhere then here where fans and media will always question fit. I'd rather just end the debate completely by letting him go.


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiOzYbP5tn8[/youtube]

I just found this vid on Youtube. Didn't log them or anything but I'll give him a solid 11 assists that were legit great playmaking from the point that led to layups at the rim. Reggie only had 4 of those. There are levels to kicking out to shooters. Some are very simple passes, others are great passes off of contested penetration. Notice the ball fakes in how Jennings sets up his dimes as the key difference. Reggie is great with the lob, but Jennings is definitely more crafty of a passer an better at creating good looks for others. I don't favor Jennings or RJ, but his game was definitely more impressive.
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#13 » by 313 Professor » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:39 pm

DocRI wrote:I remember when you did that analysis of Stuckey's game, and my opinion of this one is that same as that — congratulations on (once again) crafting such a long, irrelevant, self-serving, mountainous pile of fresh manure that illustrates both your lack of understanding of the game of basketball while also exposing your obvious prejudice against a certain player.

I once shot stick with a lady who was a semi-professional pool player, and she basically wound up "holding court" and teaching all of us bar hacks all afternoon. Her #1 tip that I've never forgotten? A good pool player NEVER has to make a hard shot; rather, they always leave themselves positioned for another easy one. Such is exactly the case with basketball — when a TEAM is playing cohesive TEAM OFFENSE together, everything gets made easy for everyone. Easy passes lead to easy shots. Your critiques, first of Stuckey and now of Jackson, are an argument against GOOD TEAM OFFENSE! "That was an easy pass," "That was a short pass," "That was a pass to a guy 20 feet from the basket" ... THAT'S THE WHOLE DAMN POINT!!! You're not making a valid criticism against the point guard; rather, you are in fact paying a compliment to all five guys on the court!

And this isn't to say that Jackson (or Stuckey previously) don't deserve credit; that would be like dismissing a 20 rebound game from Drummond with, "Well, he's tall, he's supposed to do that." Yes, he's supposed to do that, same as Jackson is supposed to get the ball to the guy who's in the best position to score. But when they do their job, and do so exceptionally, you REALLY have to reach to criticize them.

So I'll end with a challenge to you — go watch a 15+ assist game of Chris Paul and adhere the EXACT same standards to his assists as you did to Jackson's from last night. I will all but guarantee that you'll be stunned to find how many "easy" passes you'll find. Of course, I'd just call those smart basketball ... and if you agree, it'll just show how you're prejudiced and nit-picking against players you don't like.


First off I have nothing against RJ. I cheered when we got him, then watched him play and that is what led to how I feel about his game. Nothing "prejudice" at all. Secondly, I just posted the video with Brandon Jennings' game and you'll see him setting up guys at the rim. Yes he got easy assists as well, but he flashed the ability to drop true dimes at the rim creating high percentage looks for others.

In the 4th quarter, against tough defense, high intensity situations, all the other PG's you mentioned I should "adhere the EXACT standards for" are able to drop dimes. Everybody gets easy assists, but not everybody is able to make plays for others. Those PG's are able to drive against good defenders, force help and make great passes out to the perimeter. We played against Damian Lillard a few games ago and you saw how he chopped our defense, split double teams and got guys looks. Knowing the difference between making plays for others and assists is key in understanding what a PG is really doing.

The assist number can be very misleading. Every PG will benefit from the spaced floor and shooters and rack up better assist numbers. Calling for a pick driving strong side then throwing a pass back weakside to a guy spotted up is more of a credit to the shooter for knocking it down than it is the PG. When a guy breaks a defense down then dishes to a wide open shooter that's when you credit the PG. You can get assists without making the play, and with a big number like 20 I just wanted to take a closer look. It was a great game by RJ no doubt, but nobody should ever say "remember that 20 assist game he has all the potential to be a starting PG." It's deeper than that, and the base PTS/AST/REB stats never tell the whole story.

BTW, why all the hate in the 1st paragraph though? :-?
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#14 » by Cant touch this » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:49 pm

From Dan Feldman at ProBasketball talk
Entering this season:

Last 20-assist game? Rajon Rondo with 20 for the Celtics on Nov. 17, 2012 against the Raptors
Last 20-point, 20-assist game? Steve Nash with 21 and 20 for the Suns on Nov. 9, 2009 against the 76ers
Last 24-point, 21-assist game? Nash with 28 and 22 for the Suns on Jan. 2, 2006 against the Knicks
Now, 20-point, 20-assist games come easily – if you play for the Pistons.

Brandon Jennings had one earlier this season, and Reggie Jackson joined the club tonight.

Jackson finished with 23 points and 20 assists in Detroit’s 105-95 win over the Grizzlies.

Since the Pistons acquired him in a trade just before the deadline, Jackson has been up and down, seemingly putting too much pressure on himself from the jump. This final stretch of the season should factor into how much the Pistons offer him in free agency this summer.

Consider tonight a major step in the right direction for Jackson during a difficult season to navigate.
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#15 » by DocRI » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:04 am

313 Professor wrote:
DocRI wrote:I remember when you did that analysis of Stuckey's game, and my opinion of this one is that same as that — congratulations on (once again) crafting such a long, irrelevant, self-serving, mountainous pile of fresh manure that illustrates both your lack of understanding of the game of basketball while also exposing your obvious prejudice against a certain player.

I once shot stick with a lady who was a semi-professional pool player, and she basically wound up "holding court" and teaching all of us bar hacks all afternoon. Her #1 tip that I've never forgotten? A good pool player NEVER has to make a hard shot; rather, they always leave themselves positioned for another easy one. Such is exactly the case with basketball — when a TEAM is playing cohesive TEAM OFFENSE together, everything gets made easy for everyone. Easy passes lead to easy shots. Your critiques, first of Stuckey and now of Jackson, are an argument against GOOD TEAM OFFENSE! "That was an easy pass," "That was a short pass," "That was a pass to a guy 20 feet from the basket" ... THAT'S THE WHOLE DAMN POINT!!! You're not making a valid criticism against the point guard; rather, you are in fact paying a compliment to all five guys on the court!

And this isn't to say that Jackson (or Stuckey previously) don't deserve credit; that would be like dismissing a 20 rebound game from Drummond with, "Well, he's tall, he's supposed to do that." Yes, he's supposed to do that, same as Jackson is supposed to get the ball to the guy who's in the best position to score. But when they do their job, and do so exceptionally, you REALLY have to reach to criticize them.

So I'll end with a challenge to you — go watch a 15+ assist game of Chris Paul and adhere the EXACT same standards to his assists as you did to Jackson's from last night. I will all but guarantee that you'll be stunned to find how many "easy" passes you'll find. Of course, I'd just call those smart basketball ... and if you agree, it'll just show how you're prejudiced and nit-picking against players you don't like.


First off I have nothing against RJ. I cheered when we got him, then watched him play and that is what led to how I feel about his game. Nothing "prejudice" at all. Secondly, I just posted the video with Brandon Jennings' game and you'll see him setting up guys at the rim. Yes he got easy assists as well, but he flashed the ability to drop true dimes at the rim creating high percentage looks for others.

In the 4th quarter, against tough defense, high intensity situations, all the other PG's you mentioned I should "adhere the EXACT standards for" are able to drop dimes. Everybody gets easy assists, but not everybody is able to make plays for others. Those PG's are able to drive against good defenders, force help and make great passes out to the perimeter. We played against Damian Lillard a few games ago and you saw how he chopped our defense, split double teams and got guys looks. Knowing the difference between making plays for others and assists is key in understanding what a PG is really doing.

The assist number can be very misleading. Every PG will benefit from the spaced floor and shooters and rack up better assist numbers. Calling for a pick driving strong side then throwing a pass back weakside to a guy spotted up is more of a credit to the shooter for knocking it down than it is the PG. When a guy breaks a defense down then dishes to a wide open shooter that's when you credit the PG. You can get assists without making the play, and with a big number like 20 I just wanted to take a closer look. It was a great game by RJ no doubt, but nobody should ever say "remember that 20 assist game he has all the potential to be a starting PG." It's deeper than that, and the base PTS/AST/REB stats never tell the whole story.

BTW, why all the hate in the 1st paragraph though? :-?


I'm sorry if the first paragraph read as hateful; I didn't mean to get carried away.

Simply put, I just disagree with your entire premise and your preference for "true dimes" as opposed to "easy assists." Per the criteria I highlighted in your post, the vast majority of John Stockton's career assists wouldn't pass your personal eye test. Moreover, isn't it better for our team to play in a manner that creates as many easy shots as possible? You wrote that, "You can get assists without making the play," but why does that even matter? Assists are, by their very definition, an arbitrary stat per the discretion of the scorekeeper. For my part, I'd prefer to see our team play offense in a way that creates more "easy assists" than "true dimes."
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Re: Reggie Jackson 20 Assist Game vs. MEM... closer look? 

Post#16 » by 313 Professor » Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:06 am

DocRI wrote:I'm sorry if the first paragraph read as hateful; I didn't mean to get carried away.

Simply put, I just disagree with your entire premise and your preference for "true dimes" as opposed to "easy assists." Per the criteria I highlighted in your post, the vast majority of John Stockton's career assists wouldn't pass your personal eye test. Moreover, isn't it better for our team to play in a manner that creates as many easy shots as possible? You wrote that, "You can get assists without making the play," but why does that even matter? Assists are, by their very definition, an arbitrary stat per the discretion of the scorekeeper. For my part, I'd prefer to see our team play offense in a way that creates more "easy assists" than "true dimes."


Is creating as many easy shots possible the goal? Yes, of course. I agree. Creating more easy assists is something completely different though. Just because I posted it when DBC10 mentioned it I'll use it for an example. When you watch the Jennings game you notice how he's getting guys the ball in high percentage positions to score (layups). Those tight window passes with the ball fakes are more difficult passes but lead to more efficient looks at the rim (50-70%). When a team is bringing help and collapsing the paint, those dishes for 3's are easier passes that teams give you to protect the paint that lead to less efficient shots from deep (25-40%).

In the playoffs and 4th quarter of games, teams bring better help, closeout harder, and defend with more intensity overall. It's about halfcourt offense execution. In those situations you need players who can "drop dimes" either by breaking down the defense and getting teammates high percentage looks at the hoop, or by collapsing the defense enough to give those shooters as much space as possible when they kick to shoot open shots or attack closeouts. The "easy assist" game can work in the regular season, and quarters 1-3, but if you want to win your PG or a star HAS to break down the D and create space and good looks for others in the halfcourt. It's not something that can be "preferred." With Reggie being looked at as a potential starting 1, seeing how he's getting his assists, and the level of difficulty of plays/passes he's able to make is important. Being able to make all of the easier passes with good decisions is not going to help him when he has to make a tough play vs. tough defense in the 4th. Sometimes there is no easy pass.

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